I was hoping this wouldn't happen... N-H to Indy

[Lizzerd]

SpeedTV Link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/10543/)

[racer2c]

I thought it was only H to Indy?

Hmm. Has Paul softened in recent months? I doubt it. Maybe he'll use the exposure to call out TG on the state of the sport. or more than likely, he'll just quietly enter an exit.

[Railbird]

two cars in the shop as we speak. There is a chance that Bourdais may be going but I was told this weekend that it is fairly remote.

There is also a possibility that the team will continue a one car effort in the IRL with someone other than Junky or Kermit driving.

The amazing thing to me is that it is not going to be a Toyota effort, Honda must be writing some very large checks.

[racer2c]

two cars in the shop as we speak. There is a chance that Bourdais may be going but I was told this weekend that it is fairly remote.

There is also a possibility that the team will continue a one car effort in the IRL with someone other than Junky or Kermit driving.

The amazing thing to me is that it is not going to be a Toyota effort, Honda must be writing some very large checks.

Hedging their bets in a possible return to Champ Car?

[lateralus42]

Honda is desperate. Bad move by N/H. :thumdown:

[fourrunner]

Just don't Screw OWRS Carl !!!! :shakehead

[lone_groover]

I hate it. HATE IT!

But at least the resident one of these KIKI WARRIOR (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame40.html) over at TURDFORUM will have plenty of grist to grind with the prospect of Cialis© being on the 'pods.

:shakehead

[meadors]

The epitamy of tf.

Don't cha mean these gals? (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame4.html)


I hate it. HATE IT!

But at least the resident one of these KIKI WARRIOR (http://www.winternet.com/~mikelr/flame40.html) over at TURDFORUM will have plenty of grist to grind with the prospect of Cialis© being on the 'pods.

:shakehead

[Wally]

Thanks Carl....... :shakehead

[JT265]

Just had a little Yen, did ya Carl?

HondaBitch

[Cobra]

Just had a little Yen, did ya Carl?

HondaBitch

There might be a bright side to all of this. It would be awsome if N/H wins Indy and brings the BW trophy to Champcar. :rofl:

One thing that I don't understand is why Newman didn't let Carl go it alone. Paul has been a great spokesman for Champcar over the years and has expressed distain for anything IRL. If Honda was writing checks to bring a team to the I500, Newman could have easily declined and let Hass take Junky and his crapwagons to Indy. I would like to hear from Newman why he decided to go race in the IRL.

[bdogg187]

There might be a bright side to all of this. It would be awsome if N/H wins Indy and brings the BW trophy to Champcar. :rofl:


While I hate N/H are doing this, I cant stop them. But it would be neat if Newman/Haas gave the Borg Warner (do they get the real thing or just a replica?) to OWRS and put it in Champ Car headquaters, maybe they could use it as a flower pot or a door stop? :rofl:

[Lizzerd]

Yep... I know who I'll be, ahem... , "cheering" for. Would love to see Bruno or Kermit take the replica Borg Warner trophy to Milwaukee and have it in their pit the next weekend. Newman and Haas probably have more class than me, though.

[pfc_m_drake]

One thing that I don't understand is why Newman didn't let Carl go it alone.
Because they're partners who do business (e.g. go racing) together. I'm not sure why so many people have trouble with that concept.

[Spicoli]

I, for one, will be making sure that Mr. Haas hears me loud and clear at the track in Milwaukee. Fuggin diipschit. :flame:

Junky too for that matter.

It'll be great. With the departure of Mikey, I had no one to cheer against last year. This year, I'm gonna tell them to their face what dicks they are.

Sure hope KK isn't lending them any "support". That should be the rule. "You EARL, you no get any corporate help."

Sorry if that offends you Mr. Cobra. :shakehead

[Racewriter]

No honor among thieves....

[racer2c]

Just throwing this scenario out there. What if N/H was able to secure Pacificare and McD's on the basis that they cherry pick the 500. So they get a season of Champ Car for one backseat 'favor'. Would the opinions change?

[Madmaxfan2]

I can say that the numbers of the truely faithful are shrinking. There has been to much talk on this issue for something not to be happening. Haas must be covering his bases and put enough of the resources to this point not to pull the plug now ( on the Indy 500 only effort). I just hope when he is done he keeps the Crapwagon chassis to himself and not loan or sell it. Just like certain engine manufacturer's are hoarding champ car chassis'

[racer2c]

...and how many years since the lockout has it been rumored that Haas was going to run Indy?

[Spicoli]

OK - here's the skinny:

From what I have been told, any "ESP-ish" money going to teams - and them accepting it - prohibits that said team from participating in the EARL.

Evidently, that means N/H is fully funded on their own. So, that's somewhat of an explanation.

The other part of the equation is the "gifting" or whatever AF & Rahole & Honda wanna call it - of equipment to run Indy. So, basically - its free. I still disagree, and hope to hell Junky gets out alive (although at 217 .... )

So, I'm still mad as hell at them, yes; but WTF can you do? I'll still boo Junky & Carl all day long.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I'll still boo Junky & Carl all day long.You do that anyway... so what's the difference? :D :gomer:

[pchall]

Hey, if this:


http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200307/seven-of-nine01/200x150.jpg

was the Borg-Warmer Trophy I might want to do Indy, too.

[scanman]

I hope they fall flat on their face :thumdown:

[JT265]

Hey, if this:


http://www.startrek.com/imageuploads/200307/seven-of-nine01/200x150.jpg

was the Borg-Warmer Trophy I might want to do Indy, too.

No question. 'specially if you could find a rat to chew that thing off of her eyebrow. ;)

[sundaydriver2]

N/H has been my team for a long time and this hurts. Knowing they are helping the Idiotgrandson is killing me.

Looks like my new team is going to be Forsythes'. :thumbup:

I wont be watching the race so I dont GAF who wins.

[Sean O'Gorman]

OK - here's the skinny:

From what I have been told, any "ESP-ish" money going to teams - and them accepting it - prohibits that said team from participating in the EARL.

Evidently, that means N/H is fully funded on their own. So, that's somewhat of an explanation.

Honestly, if they are fully funded for Champ Car, who cares if they run Indy or not. The good news that teams can get sponsorship outweighs the bad news in that we still have Champ Car teams running in the IRL 500.

[theunions]

But it would be neat if Newman/Haas gave the Borg Warner (do they get the real thing or just a replica?)

The real thing is perpetual and stays in the IMS Hall of Fame Museum most of the year. The winning driver (car owner too?) gets a "Baby Borg" scale version (small enough to lift with one hand) and/or a plaque with the trophy in relief (I've seen both).

[pchall]

The real thing is perpetual and stays in the IMS Hall of Fame Museum most of the year. The winning driver (car owner too?) gets a "Baby Borg" scale version (small enough to lift with one hand) and/or a plaque with the trophy in relief (I've seen both).

Is this:

http://a52.g.akamaitech.net/f/52/827/1d/www.space.com/images/v_baby_borg_01,4.jpg

the Baby Borg they gave to Cheeser and others?

[sundaydriver2]

Honestly, if they are fully funded for Champ Car, who cares if they run Indy or not. The good news that teams can get sponsorship outweighs the bad news in that we still have Champ Car teams running in the IRL 500.


Your kidding right??


Look, the f'n Idiotgrandson and Fonda are doing EVERYTHING in their power to KILL the Champ Car World Series. Why The F would you want to help your eneny kill you??

It would be like the U.S. Marines helping out al Qaida.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Your kidding right??


Look, the f'n Idiotgrandson and Fonda are doing EVERYTHING in their power to KILL the Champ Car World Series. Why The F would you want to help your eneny kill you??

It would be like the U.S. Marines helping out al Qaida.

I meant as long as Newman-Haas is still running two fully funded Champ Cars.

[Mr. Vengeance]

I meant as long as Newman-Haas is still running two fully funded Champ Cars.


Yeah, great, BUT... If people keep perpetuating this IRL garbage, it gets FTG one tiny step closer to killing ChampCar off... This year would have been THE year for The Big Lie to be laid open in all of it's stinking glory; no bump day, a short field, fleet of questionable drivers... Newman/Haas may have just saved Tony George the ultimate embarrasment of not gridding 33 cars. Why are these guys lending legitimacy to a series that made no bones about trying to kill ChampCar? If Ganassi wouldn't have gone over way back when I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

I, for one, hope that honda pile of crap sprays it's crapwagon guts all over the race track.

And I hope it rains on race day. And the day after.

And the following weekend.

[Spicoli]

Yeah, great, BUT... If people keep perpetuating this IRL garbage, it gets FTG one tiny step closer to killing ChampCar off... This year would have been THE year for The Big Lie to be laid open in all of it's stinking glory; no bump day, a short field, fleet of questionable drivers... Newman/Haas may have just saved Tony George the ultimate embarrasment of not gridding 33 cars. Why are these guys lending legitimacy to a series that made no bones about trying to kill ChampCar? If Ganassi wouldn't have gone over way back when I doubt we'd be having this discussion.

I, for one, hope that honda pile of crap sprays it's crapwagon guts all over the race track.

And I hope it rains on race day. And the day after.

And the following weekend.

You go boy! :rofl:

I hope TG steps on a rusty rake too.

[racer2c]

I think there is still or has been the mentality among owners that there is the IRL and then there is the Indy 500.

[skidmarks]

I think there is still or has been the mentality among owners that there is the IRL and then there is the Indy 500.


But in thier current state they both suck.

[Brickman]

One can safely say Newman/Haas is the only team left in CART/OWRS that would have any Indy 500 desires.

[Railbird]

Until OWRS can offer a succesful and secure ChampCar series there will always be folks looking to take a shot at Indy.

Has the event lostc a lot?

sure has

but how does it stack up against the rest of American openwheel racing in the main stream press?

Ol' Carl is just looking to grab a sliver of the dying spotlight.

I'll keep saying it until someone proves me wrong:


Openwheel formula racing is dead in America.


TG bumbled and CART stumbled while NASCAR transformed the image of "racing" in America's mind.

[Cam]

Openwheel formula racing is dead in America.


TG bumbled and CART stumbled while NASCAR transformed the image of "racing" in America's mind.

10 plus years ago, when I first landed in Indy, you could walk into a bar any Sunday and there would be the CART race on the TV's, with maybe the CAB race on a TV in a corner somewhere.

Ever since the Snoreyard 400 came to town, it's slowly and methodically taken over the racing landscape. OW is now longer the pinnacle of racing. Instead, (thanks to the Frances' and TG and his crack pipe) we have what looks like rush hour on 465 as the "top" level of racing in the U.S.

I will pass thanks. :thumdown:

Cam.

[Brickman]

Until OWRS can offer a succesful and secure ChampCar series there will always be folks looking to take a shot at Indy.

Has the event lostc a lot?

sure has

but how does it stack up against the rest of American openwheel racing in the main stream press?

Ol' Carl is just looking to grab a sliver of the dying spotlight.

I'll keep saying it until someone proves me wrong:


Openwheel formula racing is dead in America.


TG bumbled and CART stumbled while NASCAR transformed the image of "racing" in America's mind.

Not dead... dying. Those who hate what has survived, are poisoning any chance it could have.

[Cam]

Not dead... dying. Those who hate what has survived, are poisoning any chance it could have.

Bullhockey! The fate of OW is purely and simply in the wrong hands! And those hands have dropped the ball multiple times!

[Railbird]

please elaborate Brickman.

I'll be interested to hear how you define "Those who hate "

[JT265]

Good point. As 'Bird said, please tell us more. Are you saying that we should swallow the mindless pap that comes out of Marion County and sing their praises as the Great Saviour?

[Insomniac]

Until OWRS can offer a succesful and secure ChampCar series there will always be folks looking to take a shot at Indy.

I don't think it matters. Things were fine in 2000 when Chip decided to race at Indy as a one off. His success allowed other guys to go over and whip the regulars in 2001 and shortly after that it all went downhill. They kept away for 5+ years, for whatever reason they couldn't stay away.

[Madmaxfan2]

Why they couldn't stay way after 5 years is an easy one. That group of car owners think they are open wheel racing. Whereover they go, the drivers and fans will follow is thier thinking. Cart yesterday, the IRL and the Indy 500 today. One thing they did not count on, the fans have independent minds and do not follow the "Chosen car owners" to the IRL. That situation is one they know they can't solve. I don't plan on helping them either.

[Brickman]

please elaborate Brickman.

I'll be interested to hear how you define "Those who hate "

I think fans of Indy Cars and fans of Champ Cars have polarized the sport. There is more disliking the other side than supporting the sport as a whole. Although I have criticised both sides on many different levels I support open wheel by buying tickets and going to races. You can lay the split at the feet of Tony George, the acrimony, animosity etc is our own doing. We are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us. I could be wrong, but when I had long time friends of F-1 and the two of them refused to set foot in IMS to fulfill a dream of seeing and hearing the race first hand it kind of gives me a clue. I agree Cam... but I believe the fate of open wheel has always been in the wrong hands. IMHO...what a mess.

[racer2c]

I think fans of Indy Cars and fans of Champ Cars have polarized the sport. There is more disliking the other side than supporting the sport as a whole. Although I have criticised both sides on many different levels I support open wheel by buying tickets and going to races. You can lay the split at the feet of Tony George, the acrimony, animosity etc is our own doing. We are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us. I could be wrong, but when I had long time friends of F-1 and the two of them refused to set foot in IMS to fulfill a dream of seeing and hearing the race first hand it kind of gives me a clue. I agree Cam... but I believe the fate of open wheel has always been in the wrong hands. IMHO...what a mess.

'We' being the invisible internet forum fans? 'We' being the fans who stopped going to CART/IRL races? 'We' being the fans who continued to go to CART/IRL races?
There's been animosity in US openwheel racing for alomost five decades. There are still those in open wheel racing , even after the traitors fell to their knees to their king, who harbor sour feeling (to say the least) towards Mumbles and his minions.

[Mr. Vengeance]

I think fans of Indy Cars and fans of Champ Cars have polarized the sport. There is more disliking the other side than supporting the sport as a whole. Although I have criticised both sides on many different levels I support open wheel by buying tickets and going to races. You can lay the split at the feet of Tony George, the acrimony, animosity etc is our own doing. We are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us. I could be wrong, but when I had long time friends of F-1 and the two of them refused to set foot in IMS to fulfill a dream of seeing and hearing the race first hand it kind of gives me a clue. I agree Cam... but I believe the fate of open wheel has always been in the wrong hands. IMHO...what a mess.

But by supporting both you're perpetuating the dilution of the sport "as a whole".

It should be clear by now that when the dust settles there will be only one series left, and I'll be damned if I'll have anything to do with supporting the side that ****ed it up to begin with. Blaming the fans for the acrimony is just wrong; without TG's ego-driven attempt to take over open-wheel racing in North America there would be no "acrimony and animosity".

I guess my unwillingness to go "kicking and screaming" makes me a "hater".

So be it.

[racer2c]

But by supporting both you're perpetuating the dilution of the sport "as a whole".

It should be clear by now that when the dust settles there will be only one series left, and I'll be damned if I'll have anything to do with supporting the side that ****ed it up to begin with. Blaming the fans for the acrimony is just wrong; without TG's ego-driven attempt to take over open-wheel racing in North America there would be no "acrimony and animosity".

I guess my unwillingness to go "kicking and screaming" makes me a "hater".

So be it.

Good post.
:thumbup:

[Brickman]

But by supporting both you're perpetuating the dilution of the sport "as a whole".

It should be clear by now that when the dust settles there will be only one series left, and I'll be damned if I'll have anything to do with supporting the side that ****ed it up to begin with. Blaming the fans for the acrimony is just wrong; without TG's ego-driven attempt to take over open-wheel racing in North America there would be no "acrimony and animosity".

I guess my unwillingness to go "kicking and screaming" makes me a "hater".

So be it.

When the dust settles there may actually be two weak series with unwilling kicking and screaming fans perpetuating the dying sport of open wheel racing.

And to think people think the middle east is a mess.

[racer2c]

When the dust settles there may actually be two weak series with unwilling kicking and screaming fans perpetuating the dying sport of open wheel racing.

And to think people think the middle east is a mess.

It's not the fans and to compare the CCWS/IRL rift to the troubles in the middle east would be comical if not such a dire topic. So I'll call it ridiculous instead.

[Madmaxfan2]

Look at this folks, it is sport, so fans should have a preference as what they enjoy, this is not the fate of the universe in the balance. If so called "hate" for either side is poisoning the sport, it is because the leadership has failed the fans and the sport. I see no problem for the people in this forum to pick sides.

[Ratattack]

No question. 'specially if you could find a rat to chew that thing off of her eyebrow. ;)
I would rather chew something else, Thankyou :gomer:
To the point though I saw two cars registerd only with no drivers named. Is this still correct??

[Brickman]

It's not the fans and to compare the CCWS/IRL rift to the troubles in the middle east would be comical if not such a dire topic. So I'll call it ridiculous instead.

I wasn't comparing the two, just commenting on how much of a mess it is, we don't have suicide bombers at IMS.

Back to the topic, It's just Haas and I would be shocked to ever see any other Champ Car owner cross the line for Indy again.... at least if he doesn't win. That can always put ideas in owner's heads.

[Railbird]

Brickman


The hard core fans can hardley be blamed for the demise of openwheel racing in America, there aren't enough of them to make a difference one way or the other.

No one forced TG to make his grab, he did it on his own following a little dubious advice from friends and syncophants concerned more with their own position in the sport rather than the sport itself.

No one forced CART to go public other than some greed mongers concerned more with profit for themselves rather than profiting the sport.

No one forced TG to attempt to fill the non-existant void of an openwheel version of NASCAR.

No one forced CART to ignore the manufacture's wishes for a smaller and more workable engine formula.

No one forced TG to inflict 25/8 on Indy and it's fans.

No one forced CART to schedule a race in Texas without a serious test.

Neither party was forced to ignore the best interest of the sport and it's fans.

I see no way to blame anyone other than the people who were, and in some cases still are, in control of the sport.

You can't pack the grandstands with hardcore fans, you have to properly promote a product which will attract enough of the general population to do that. The IRL has always been a product in search of a reason to exist and in response to that somewhat dubious challenge the powers that were running CART took their eye off the ball and let their own product slip.

While there's plenty of blame to go around I don't see how any of it can be placed at the feet of those of us who have lived through it and choose to voice our opninions on the resulting mess.

[racer2c]

Brickman


The hard core fans can hardley be blamed for the demise of openwheel racing in America, there aren't enough of them to make a difference one way or the other.

No one forced TG to make his grab, he did it on his own following a little dubious advice from friends and syncophants concerned more with their own position in the sport rather than the sport itself.

No one forced CART to go public other than some greed mongers concerned more with profit for themselves rather than profiting the sport.

No one forced TG to attempt to fill the non-existant void of an openwheel version of NASCAR.

No one forced CART to ignore the manufacture's wishes for a smaller and more workable engine formula.

No one forced TG to inflict 25/8 on Indy and it's fans.

No one forced CART to schedule a race in Texas without a serious test.

Neither party was forced to ignore the best interest of the sport and it's fans.

I see no way to blame anyone other than the people who were, and in some cases still are, in control of the sport.

You can't pack the grandstands with hardcore fans, you have to properly promote a product which will attract enough of the general population to do that. The IRL has always been a product in search of a reason to exist and in response to that somewhat dubious challenge the powers that were running CART took their eye off the ball and let their own product slip.

While there's plenty of blame to go around I don't see how any of it can be placed at the feet of those of us who have lived through it and choose to voice our opninions on the resulting mess.

Great post. :thumbup:

[Wally]

Spot on Bird!!! :thumbup:
We can't all be as righteous as the Brickman........but I am damn sure not going to apologize for it.

[Brickman]

While there's plenty of blame to go around I don't see how any of it can be placed at the feet of those of us who have lived through it and choose to voice our opninions on the resulting mess.

I'm not blaming the fans for it's current state, as you have listed quite accurately other fingers were cooking the soup. But I believe we are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us, for letting the divide create the animosity, one simply can't grow a series by hating another series.

Maybe the air being poisoned by the hard core fans doesn't make a difference, although somehow it seems to me that it's the people who are fans, people like you and otheres who's knowledge creates enthusiasm and has a greater effect on fans than a free can of Red Bull or a free Marlboro hat. Like I said I could be wrong...

[Lizzerd]

But I believe we are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us, for letting the divide create the animosity, one simply can't grow a series by hating another series.

No TG power grab = no divide.
No divide = no animosity.
No animosity = no hate.

Any questions?

[Ed_Severson]

If I hear one more time about how the fans have "divided the sport," my head's going to explode.

"The sport" isn't divided. What they do isn't sport, it's a lottery.

I couldn't give a crap about formula car racing in the United States if the IRL is all that's left. I'm not interested in the well being of "the sport." I'm interested in Champ Car, and to hell with anybody who tries to ruin it for me.

We didn't cause this to happen ... we're the victims here.

[Ziggy]

Another thread building experience by "Bricksilva"

Great post 'bird.

Ziggy

[Insomniac]

I'm not blaming the fans for it's current state, as you have listed quite accurately other fingers were cooking the soup. But I believe we are to blame for letting TG's power grab divide us, for letting the divide create the animosity, one simply can't grow a series by hating another series.

Maybe the air being poisoned by the hard core fans doesn't make a difference, although somehow it seems to me that it's the people who are fans, people like you and otheres who's knowledge creates enthusiasm and has a greater effect on fans than a free can of Red Bull or a free Marlboro hat. Like I said I could be wrong...

I don't see your logic here. The fans didn't split the sport, but somehow, by all the fans supporting both series is going to help? Forget about the money to see twice as many races, but the two series aren't even the same. It's like saying ALMS and NASCAR are the same because both of the cars have fenders. That right there will preclude everyone from supporting both series.

After the split, we took the teams, drivers, sponsors and tracks. Only leaving IMS behind. We had it all, and at the beginning also had the ratings. They still had Indy, which is probably the most recognized race in the U.S. People just watch it. It's like watching the Super Bowl when you didn't watch any other game before that. It's a big race/tradition to hurt. But, we could've tried to keep the momentum if we didn't keep shooting ourselves in the foot. The fans didn't make those decisions. The owners mismanaged and tried to help themselves over greed/money. The funny thing is it was clear that neither the fans nor the stockholders were their priority. How they escaped a shareholder class action lawsuit I'll never understand.'

So, how do the fans prevent any of this from happening short of going back in time and making sure TG never got control of IMS?

[Spicoli]

I'll go ahead and say it:

Brickman? You are a dumbass and you make no sense. You are wrong most of the time, you are NOT funny, and you have obviously landed on the wrong planet.

try this planet:

www.dumbazzracefanwhodoesntknowschit.com

[JT265]

Dunno Brick, that logic comes close to hanging with deFender IMO.

The bold facts are these. although most people are sheep, give them enough time and, like Bricklins, DeLoreans and pet rocks, will recognize a turd for what it is, and no amount of spin, handholding and verses of Kumbaya will change that.

[Brickman]

I'll go ahead and say it:

Brickman? You are a dumbass and you make no sense. You are wrong most of the time, you are NOT funny, and you have obviously landed on the wrong planet.



No... sadly I'm not. Most of the time I am spot on, from Penske's tracks having the ability to put the IRL in double digets, all the defections, to CART needing to reverse itself on the engines and stay with turbos, etc, but when I am wrong I admit it.

So if hate mongering about wanting Champ Car to die and others wanting the IRL to die won't tip the scales of any sponsor, won't affect new fans then I will be wrong, and TG's and PG/KK's correct decisions will save the day for open wheel.

BM

[Mike Kellner]

Geeze Brickman, don't you get tired of carrying Tony's water? Yea, we're all to blame. Everything would have been OK, but the big sponsors were spending all their time reading Speednet and decided to bail.

Your friend who refused to go see the Tony GP was displaying honorable behavior, something I am sure you don't understand. The world is full of weasels like yourself, those who are so much smarter than the rest of us, that they do not take sides between the cancer and the patient, instead choosing to lecture all within earshot, the prime topic being their own superiority. I hope you will forgive me if I do not applaud.

Perhaps this is the point where should you post pictures of a bad crash to show how much you love C^RT/OWRS? That always impresses everyone.

mk

[nrc]

No... sadly I'm not. Most of the time I am spot on, from Penske's tracks having the ability to put the IRL in double digets, all the defections, to CART needing to reverse itself on the engines and stay with turbos, etc, but when I am wrong I admit it.

As I recall you were wrong about the car count last year. In fact you owe me a 7G polo from our bet over that one. I never claimed it because I stopped going there. Pay up, Karnak.

[Brickman]

As I recall you were wrong about the car count last year. In fact you owe me a 7G polo from our bet over that one. I never claimed it because I stopped going there. Pay up, Karnak.

Yes I do owe you one. I was wrong, ESP II wasn't around at the time of the bet. Send your address and you can have my old one or a new never worn "other" t-shirt.

[Ziggy]

nrc, would you settle for an IMS pullover? It may have a "stain" on it traceable to some gomer from Terre Haute however!

Ziggy

[JT265]

nrc, would you settle for an IMS pullover? It may have a "stain" on it traceable to some gomer from Terre Haute however!

Ziggy

EEEEEEEEEEEEEWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!!

YUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!


<all in all, the above is just another brick<man> in the wall>


:D

[nrc]

Yes I do owe you one. I was wrong, ESP II wasn't around at the time of the bet. Send your address and you can have my old one or a new never worn "other" t-shirt.

T-shirt? The bet was for a Polo. I need something snazzier than a t-shirt. :)

[Racing Truth]

As has been stated, the fans did not choose the split. Tony George (with a little help on the other side) did. Furthermore, I also pin much of the current animosity towards the actions of those "in control" of the sport, which has led to the acrimony and polarization.

That said, we have references to Al Qaeda and the Middle East on this thread. That should speak volumes about how silly this has gotten for a few hardcore fans on both sides.

For IRL fans, it has become an obsession to see ChampCar die, and, I think, the reverse is true. While understandable, esp. ChampCar fans wishing ill on the IRL, I don't find such a mindset terribly healthy either.

JUST IMHO.

[racer2c]

I hated the lockout. No, I despised the lockout. Along with the watered down wanker league that he created to , as many have said, provide an answer to a question no one asked. A couple of years went by and I came across Internet CART forums were people were discussing the lockout and expressed the same sentiments that I held. The posters that really bothered me though were the "it's just more racing for us fans" crowd. ChampCar fans are in the right here and as most of us here have sworn throughout the years, I'll give up on the sport if ChampCar ever goes away than become an IRL fan.
Fence-sitters suck.

[pfc_m_drake]

No matter how you slice it, certain things are undeniable.

The CART/IRL split is a civil war. A war which has had consequences which nobody could have predicted beforehand. Unfortunately, neither side seems willing to bring the war to an end - at this point it appears one side will have to die for the war to be over. Whether or not that's a good thing from your point of view isn't really important at the moment.

Tony George never really had to worry about the CART owners controlling the Indy 500. The owners were always going to run the 500, they were never going to abandon it. If you need proof, simply search previous threads for the word 'indyitis'. Ergo, the split really wasn't necessary.

CART, on the other hand, never needed to worry about the IRL. CART simply needed to keep an eye on its own house and everything would have been fine. Brickyard legends such as Racin Gardner and Dr. Jack Miller were never going to be the undoing of the series. Ergo, what CART needed was strong leadership to keep greedy owners in check and make some key decisions (engine package) along the way.

Open wheel (formula car, if you like) fans have suffered the most. Greedy owners, a stubborn racetrack owner, and rising NASCAR popularity have seemingly doomed the open wheel fan to obsecurity. However, in the process, some fans are no longer so much passionate about the sport that they loved as they are filled with venom for the side that they hate. Ergo it's become more important to boo your enemy than cheer your allies.

[Brickman]

T-shirt? The bet was for a Polo. I need something snazzier than a t-shirt. :)

It's a snazzy T-shirt. It's has flames. ;)

[Spicoli]

It's a snazzy T-shirt. It's has flames. ;)

Please give up. now.

[Brickman]

Please give up. now.

He can PM me his address and it will be in the mail this afternoon. Go mind your own business.

BM

[nrc]

He can PM me his address and it will be in the mail this afternoon. Go mind your own business.

BM

But I was just starting to have fun with this. :)

Ok, how about this. I don't really need something else to wear while I'm mowing the lawn. Instead, would you be willing to donate $20 to Paul Newman's Hole In The Wall Camp and we'll call it even?

[fourrunner]

The Enemy Within?.....

Wasn't it Rahal that scheduled the Texas Race ?

Wasn't it Michael Andretti that was the spokesman for the Drivers surrounding "I'M DizzyGate" ...

I could go on & on about the backstabbing & money grab of the scumbag Penske and the porky Ganassi.

Funny where they are now....

If Anything Tony George should look at this rabble and realize their loyalty is a moving object.. be careful Tony !

You know Historians may look at this in a much different light, CART just seemed to be reacting to a traitorous bunch of girlymen who have "slinky's" for backbones!

[FRANKY]

Here ya go Brickman.

http://www.holeinthewallgang.org/

[cart7]

I can't believe I'm being blamed for not supporting, even despising, a form of open wheel racing that was forced upon me without an overwhelming voice of need from the fans of the sport. :rolleyes:

You need to rethink this thought Brickman. Had the France family owned sportscar racings biggest track and then formed Grandam as an alternative to ALMS, I can assure you the divide over that sport would be just as heated as the OW mess we've been in for 8 years. Fortunately, Lemans is controlled by others and hopefully, we'll never see the surface of that great circuit soiled by a protocrap car. :shakehead

[Brickman]

I don't have any other business to "mind". :gomer:

Which is kinda cool, cause I usually do whatever I want. But just like Wilke has annointed hisself the "Chief Scrutineer" of all that is legal and financial of Champcar...I must balance the power and anoint myself "Warden of Racing Dumbasses". I make sure all the morons stay in line. A job that got me fired from Cwagon (aka: 7thgrade V.2 ). But alas, here I am!

With that in mind, if the shoe fits, stick it where the sun don't shine, or at least get your butt down to the post office and pay off your bet.

:shakehead

Sorry you got bounced. Emulating Wilke in any form or fashion is a no no. :laugh: We all learn from our mistakes.

The shoe won't get or need any shining. I'll be taking care of business in my usual manner. I'm an honest person who's word is as good as it gets.

[Spicoli]

Sorry you got bounced. Emulating Wilke in any form or fashion is a no no. :laugh: We all learn from our mistakes.

The shoe won't get or need any shining. I'll be taking care of business in my usual manner. I'm an honest person who's word is as good as it gets.

WOW - i AM AMAZED YOU EVEN RESPONDED.

Make is a great day! :saywhat:

[Racewriter]

Who to blame for the current pathetic state of openwheel racing:

Tony George, Andrew Craig, Clueless Joe Heitzler, Bobby Rahal, Chris Pook, Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet, Mercedes, Robin Miller, every team owner, Eddie Cheever, Brian Barnhart, The Three Stooges....

Want me to keep going?

I can't think of a single frickin' person involved with this mess that has covered themselves in glory.

Notice that "the fans" does not appear on this list. We're what keeps it going. Any other analysis of the fans' role is idiotic. And it seems to me that the various parties involved have done everything possible to piss off pretty much every group of fans that makes up the openwheel fanbase.

[Methanolandbrats]

Who to blame for the current pathetic state of openwheel racing:

Tony George, Andrew Craig, Clueless Joe Heitzler, Bobby Rahal, Chris Pook, Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet, Mercedes, Robin Miller, every team owner, Eddie Cheever, Brian Barnhart, The Three Stooges....

Want me to keep going?

I can't think of a single frickin' person involved with this mess that has covered themselves in glory.

Notice that "the fans" does not appear on this list. We're what keeps it going. Any other analysis of the fans' role is idiotic. And it seems to me that the various parties involved have done everything possible to piss off pretty much every group of fans that makes up the openwheel fanbase. Oh bull****. Tony George grenaded the whole goddamn thing because he's a stupid, drug addled, egomaniac. Without that ******* there would have been ups and downs, but there would not have been this 10 year death spiral.

[Ziggy]

I can't think of a single frickin' person involved with this mess that has covered themselves in glory.

I can, and its you.

Ziggy

[Spicoli]

Who to blame for the current pathetic state of openwheel racing:

Tony George, Andrew Craig, Clueless Joe Heitzler, Bobby Rahal, Chris Pook, Toyota, Honda, Chevrolet, Mercedes, Robin Miller, every team owner, Eddie Cheever, Brian Barnhart, The Three Stooges....

Want me to keep going?

I can't think of a single frickin' person involved with this mess that has covered themselves in glory.

Notice that "the fans" does not appear on this list. We're what keeps it going. Any other analysis of the fans' role is idiotic. And it seems to me that the various parties involved have done everything possible to piss off pretty much every group of fans that makes up the openwheel fanbase.

Paul Tracy. :)


Btw - who do you write for?

[Railbird]

pretty much gotta agree with Racewriter.

don't know how much guys like Miller had to do with though. What's he supposed to write about other than his angle on the foolishness going on?

[Brickman]

Notice that "the fans" does not appear on this list. We're what keeps it going. Any other analysis of the fans' role is idiotic.

I just think those you listed disenfranchised the fans. The fans don't do anything to keep the alienated fan base from becoming one fan base.... and of course they aren't helped by the powers that be because you can't write a check and buy fan base. :gomer:

It's a united we stand divided we fall kinda thing. So is life...

[Ziggy]

First off, it was Tony George who needed to save openwheel racing. Myself, and many other long time posters reconized the sham immediately. You on the other hand, sang the praises of Tony's vision to all who would listen.

Fast forward nine years, and Champcar is still around. IRL has been unmasked for the fraud it is. After the first few years, and more specifically when the big money teams ran and won the Indy 500, You finally saw the nine foot letters on the chalk board. It took you that long to realize that thousands of fans were not going to support the IRL. They really werent. They didnt. You now realize that the Indianapolis 500 has about as much of a media buzz going for it as a county fair. I dont like county fairs all that much, for there is not much there that I am interested in. Same goes for the IRL.

but it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, correct? What happened to all those good feelings of Jim Guthrie slaying the giants? Danny Drinan digging through some have teams dumpster and building his "dream"? Nobody is "building their own motors". Nobody even actually owns them. The evil Roger Penske has won four of the last five Indy 500 he has participated in (three straight in the IRL) In eight years six foriegn drivers have won Indy, and a record foriegn winner for five years in a row (Im giving you Cheever, sic) Not one of the lynchpins that Tony George threw out for the formation of the league has stood the test of time. Not engine stability, not chassie stability, no leased engine's, equal chance for American talent, nada, zip, nothing.

And you have the nerve to blame the fans? And more specific, CART fans? See, We CART fans are a funny lot. We dont just throw out our shoulders and bow to IMS. We sure as hell dont go out to spread the message as to what a great series the IRL is. Their contrived side by side, spotter dependant drone fest's bore us to tears. Much like its model, it all about staying out of crashes and keeping the leader in your sight. Big push for the final stint and you could win a race nobody cares about. You could get killed or maimed for your efforts, as this series has a staggering amount of injuries that pundants such as yourself like to sweep under the rug.

So 33 is just a number. Indy cars testing at IMS are hard pressed to crack 220 mph. Go out on a limb and give us a brilliant prediction. I will save you the effort, higher than 221 but under 225 for pole speed. BFD. Indianapolis is now just another race. It props up an entire series of worthless dreck. The Indianapolis 500's history and traditions are quickly falling off the radar screen (and have for ever for thousands of fans) as practice and qualifications hold zero drama.

That fence you have been sitting on for eight years should have left a pretty big furrow in your arse. Your a giant bore with your mushy commitments and childish thread baiting. You remind me so much of, well, yourself from the Speednet days. Your pontification on correctness is to laugh at, as even a publicly educated Hoosier such as myself feels the ego leaking out of each and every keystroke.

Its the fans fault...your a dumbazz

In my thoughts always
Ziggy

PS - aw, forget it you idiot

[Winston Wolfe]

First off, it was Tony George who needed to save openwheel racing. Myself, and many other long time posters reconized the sham immediately. You on the other hand, sang the praises of Tony's vision to all who would listen.

EDIT

That fence you have been sitting on for eight years should have left a pretty big furrow in your arse. Your a giant bore with your mushy commitments and childish thread baiting. You remind me so much of, well, yourself from the Speednet days. Your pontification on correctness is to laugh at, as even a publicly educated Hoosier such as myself feels the ego leaking out of each and every keystroke.

Its the fans fault...your a dumbazz



For the Rome fans in the group - "DING, DING, DING - I think what I am supposed to say is 'I'm out, JIm' " - that was the "Huge Call of the Day"...

Thanks, Ziggy! :thumbup:

[Brickman]

First off, it was Tony George who needed to save openwheel racing. Myself, and many other long time posters reconized the sham immediately. You on the other hand, sang the praises of Tony's vision to all who would listen.

Fast forward nine years, and Champcar is still around. IRL has been unmasked for the fraud it is. After the first few years, and more specifically when the big money teams ran and won the Indy 500, You finally saw the nine foot letters on the chalk board. It took you that long to realize that thousands of fans were not going to support the IRL. They really werent. They didnt. You now realize that the Indianapolis 500 has about as much of a media buzz going for it as a county fair. I dont like county fairs all that much, for there is not much there that I am interested in. Same goes for the IRL.

but it's hard to put the genie back in the bottle, correct? What happened to all those good feelings of Jim Guthrie slaying the giants? Danny Drinan digging through some have teams dumpster and building his "dream"? Nobody is "building their own motors". Nobody even actually owns them. The evil Roger Penske has won four of the last five Indy 500 he has participated in (three straight in the IRL) In eight years six foriegn drivers have won Indy, and a record foriegn winner for five years in a row (Im giving you Cheever, sic) Not one of the lynchpins that Tony George threw out for the formation of the league has stood the test of time. Not engine stability, not chassie stability, no leased engine's, equal chance for American talent, nada, zip, nothing.

And you have the nerve to blame the fans? And more specific, CART fans? See, We CART fans are a funny lot. We dont just throw out our shoulders and bow to IMS. We sure as hell dont go out to spread the message as to what a great series the IRL is. Their contrived side by side, spotter dependant drone fest's bore us to tears. Much like its model, it all about staying out of crashes and keeping the leader in your sight. Big push for the final stint and you could win a race nobody cares about. You could get killed or maimed for your efforts, as this series has a staggering amount of injuries that pundants such as yourself like to sweep under the rug.

So 33 is just a number. Indy cars testing at IMS are hard pressed to crack 220 mph. Go out on a limb and give us a brilliant prediction. I will save you the effort, higher than 221 but under 225 for pole speed. BFD. Indianapolis is now just another race. It props up an entire series of worthless dreck. The Indianapolis 500's history and traditions are quickly falling off the radar screen (and have for ever for thousands of fans) as practice and qualifications hold zero drama.

That fence you have been sitting on for eight years should have left a pretty big furrow in your arse. Your a giant bore with your mushy commitments and childish thread baiting. You remind me so much of, well, yourself from the Speednet days. Your pontification on correctness is to laugh at, as even a publicly educated Hoosier such as myself feels the ego leaking out of each and every keystroke.

Its the fans fault...your a dumbazz

In my thoughts always
Ziggy

PS - aw, forget it you idiot

Whenever I see a poster calling someone an "idiot" or a "dumbazz' I always chuckle. You evidently didn't listen to me on SpeedNet or 7th Gear. You just lumped me in with the nameless, you think you know but you don't. But rather than pull out my crayons and color you a fool... I'll reply. Just where do you come up with this? "And you have the nerve to blame the fans? And more specific, CART fans? See, We CART fans are a funny lot. We dont just throw out our shoulders and bow to IMS."

My statement was general in nature. CART fans are no more to blame than the Indycentric. "Not dead... dying. Those who hate what has survived, are poisoning any chance it could have." Pretty self explanatory... not posted on the CART forum... Duh... It's both sets of fans IMHO that have a firm grip on each others throats... accurate? :gomer:

To set the "SpeedNet" days record right... (since you have no clue) I clearly and admittedly declared my dislike for Texas "style" races. The title was something like "My dissention on Texas") I remember quite clearly my mini dissertation about how wrong I felt it was. Psst... I'm talking about the IRL, although I equally and clearly said that Texas/CART was wrong the day it was announced. I believe GrandView took exception to my Texas views... No... Lifting isn't racing. I bumped heads quite hard with a number of members then. Sure I thought Guthrie's win was good. An engine builder figures out oil cooling of the engine block... 500+ miles IF I remember correctly. Too bad they didn't keep the radiators cool at Indy. :rolleyes:

I also thought talks were broke off between TG and CART because Al Jr. left Penske... just the kind of thing that would make TG think he won.

"Their contrived side by side, spotter dependant drone fest's bore us to tears (http://www.jsonline.com/sports/arc/race/spot6197.stm) yea yea yea... what do want them to do? Say nothing? You never listened to a Handford race? Last Year's Germany race? Sheesh.

If you think "pundits" like me sweep injuries under rug you once again you are wrong, at SpeedNet I queried about Davey Jone's injury... ask Chief if I take the subject lightly. In all honesty you are so off base with so many comments I think the next lunch you have with RM you should buy! You don't need to have stayed@holidayinn to know what, why, just a pinch of common sense might get you by. Am I perfect? Far from it. Right? More so than wrong, but when wrong I admit it. I admit I sound too arrogant... I'm not in real life, I have given the shirt off my back for others. I apologize if I spike my words a touch. (it's a forum thing)

What you clearly don't get is that it's a glass house thing. The IRL is emulating CART. CART emulated the IRL. The positioning of both sides in reality was to see who is going over the cliff first, but just because one goes over doesn't guarantee both won't. I said it once I'll say it again... Those who hate what has survived, are poisoning any chance it could have.

The past is the past, the IRL clearly hasn't learned from CART's mistakes. Fans from either side are as clueless as BigIrlFan. ;) Hands on throats, choking away the f-u-t-u-r-e. Fan base? You need live fans for that.

This is not a paper "peace in racing" grandstand thing, just 2 cents replying to your penny.

[cart7]

originally posted by Brickman
Fans from either side are as clueless as BigIrlFan.

So now we don't know what we want in a racing series? :rolleyes:

Give it a break. The racing series I wanted was gelling in 1995. We had a fantastic Indy to boot. Problems?, Sure, I can't think of a single company that doesn't need to fine tune or change for the future, but nothing that needed what we've got now. I know what I want. A strong OW series should include Indy but that's not going to happen anytime soon due to the current trustee of the joint. I can't make myself like what the earl was, is or is about to become. It's the reason for the fracture of the sport I loved. I'm not going to be tolerant of it either. I'd just as soon ignore it but it's existance takes away a race I would love to attend and enjoy the participants of it (500). It's existance dillutes OW racing and sends it further into the hole. I'm not happy about that and I'm not going to suppress my anger to please some new fans.

BTW, ever tried to get new fans interested in the sport? After you get done trying to explain the split to someone who doesn't know better, they'll likely take up Womens European Soccer. :shakehead

[Spicoli]

Damn Brickhead, you really don't get it do you.


My man Ziggy with a big fat post, reminds me of that nice AtlasF1 rant by Buford, where he schooled Trun13 for about 14 pages worth of gobbledy-gook.

ya'll shoulda taken my suggestion and headed for the hills about 2 pages ago.

sand oh yeah - sorry for being a bad fan. :saywhat:

Dick.

[racer2c]

I too would like to apologize to everyone for my part in perpetuating the continued disintegration of American open wheel racing. I am extending an apology to Tony George and OWRS. Champ Car Internet forums have failed you, Champ Car 'fans in the stands' have failed you and I have failed you. I am sorry.

Going forward I herby promise to attend double the amount of Champ Car races that I usually attend, purchase double the amount of Champ Car swag and spend less time on the Internet denouncing the IRL as the farce it truly is.

On second thought, skip that last one. :gomer:

[sundaydriver2]

It's all really about the fan. The Idiotgrandson doesn't get it, Peniske doesn't get it, Andretti the Lesser doesn't get it, Fatassi doesn't get, etc etc.

All this fan ever wanted was an open wheel series that has great looking and fast cars. Drivers from around the world who have proven themselves to get there. Owners who have some integrity, and a guy at IMS who has the best interest of the sport at heart and isn't hell bent on getting EVERYTHING he wants, just because HE WANTS.

[Brickman]

BTW, ever tried to get new fans interested in the sport?

Yea. The version changes but not the facts. This is the series (Champ Car) that use to run in the Indy 500, there was a boycott because of a lockout, because of a powerplay, that they could have avoided but they voted to race someplace else, both sides are looking after each others own interests and not looking after the sport. One side should have moved forward with engines but didn't, went public which allowed the owners to exit stage left. The CEO's either were fired, bluffed their way into the job, or spent every last dime. The other has more injuries per mile than the Titanic has deaths. One side is run by a lucky ***** who doesn't care about tradition just covering his arse, he would be better off listening to fans than listening to God knows who. No track is banked too high, no street race to square or too small for the powers that be. The cars look similar, the engine manufacturers, drivers and owners have just about all switched sides, which basically means they'll be screwing up the other side now. The fans hate each other but don't like being told so... maybe because it feels too good. The story gets tweaked every year and sometimes every month. Oh... ever smell methanol fumes in the morning?

[Mike Kellner]

Brickman, coming down squarely on both sides of the issue, so he can always be right.

Yep, not much has changed.

mk

[Spicoli]

Yea. The version changes but not the facts. This is the series (Champ Car) that use to run in the Indy 500, there was a boycott because of a lockout, because of a powerplay, that they could have avoided but they voted to race someplace else, both sides are looking after each others own interests and not looking after the sport. One side should have moved forward with engines but didn't, went public which allowed the owners to exit stage left. The CEO's either were fired, bluffed their way into the job, or spent every last dime. The other has more injuries per mile than the Titanic has deaths. One side is run by a lucky ***** who doesn't care about tradition just covering his arse, he would be better off listening to fans than listening to God knows who. No track is banked too high, no street race to square or too small for the powers that be. The cars look similar, the engine manufacturers, drivers and owners have just about all switched sides, which basically means they'll be screwing up the other side now. The fans hate each other but don't like being told so... maybe because it feels too good. The story gets tweaked every year and sometimes every month. Oh... ever smell methanol fumes in the morning?

Well, whatever the **** that was, it'll kill the thread.

[Brickman]

Brickman, coming down squarely on both sides of the issue, so he can always be right.

Yep, not much has changed.

mk

You can't be squarely on both sides about two issues. Never happens. :shakehead: No series is perfect.

But I do call them like I see them, if both sides do things wrong I point them out, as do others. NASCAR has issues too... although theirs are now more about taking care of #8 and getting a safety team, IMS covered their butt on soft walls.

[Kahauna Dreamer]

Go mind your own business. BM

oh, never mind...Thanks for giving me a Monday AM laugh, dood!




:laugh: :rofl: :laugh:

[Mike Kellner]

" Fans from either side are as clueless as BigIrlFan."

I resent that. I know BiGirlFan. I have been to races with him. He knows lots about auto racing. Plus, it is always more fun to watch a race with guys who bring 1.75Ls of Wild Turkey.

mk