Long Beach Up For Grabs?

[TedN]

Very Interesting Read (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/autoindustry/10775/)


Ted

[Ankf00]

a shame I didn't see Bernie, coulda thrown eggs at him in place of Max...

and why did George have to befoul a perfectly fine cowboy hat? he's a gomer ffs, wear a gomer hat or something...

[KLang]

As we saw back in January, the OWRS lawyers know their way around a courtroom pretty well. I don't see FTG winning this one either.

[sundaydriver2]

Boy George, what an idiot. :laugh:

Keep wishing cheese dick. :gomer:

[racer2c]

Like we've been saying since Judge Otte made his ruling, Tony took a hard uppercut to the chin in losing his bid to destroy CART. Now the battle-front has moved to the tracks and he's going to play rough and unfortunately, most of the tracks only care about the greenbacks. So rough that he's blatantly making a general admission appearance knowing full well what the press and the fans will make of it.
In a strange sort of way, I would like to see Champ Car move to the streets of Hollywood and take the fans with them. I'd love to see the look on silva's face to find out once and for all that the Long Beach 'street party fans' are actually Champ Car fans and non of them would show up for the flying crapwagon circus.

[Railbird]

A rumor I heard a few days ago had TG helping (financing the necessary pit/paddock improvements) Bernie in a quest to revive the USGP West.

If not for the source I would have laughed it off, still not putting much faith in it but who knows?

[cart7]

OT just a second, this is pathetic.

The IRL race in Japan on ESPN last Friday night drew a 0.1 while Champ Car's debut on SPIKE last Sunday had a 0.2 .....

[racer2c]

I'll believe it when I see it with F1 coming back to LB. I doubt the city would ever approve the required infrastructure. And why would Tony be helping them? Two US Grands Prix? I 'll believe it when I see it.

[Railbird]

I too will believe it when I see it racer but the reason behind why TG would do it is pretty simple. Raise the profile of F1 in the US thus helping out his event, not to mention another grasp at being a player in world wide motorsport.

With Bernie rattling the sword at many of the Euro events I would think another "paid for" venue in the largest commercial market in the world might hold some attraction

[Jay]

If money is the aim - I think TG and Bernie would deal with the devil...or each other... It would require a lot on the part of Long Beach to make the track suitable for F1 - however, if Ile Notre-Dame in Montreal has room for F1 (and it's cramped even for Champcar), I'm going to guess Long Beach could as well....if they want to. So we'll see where this goes... It would take a lot to pull together, but it definately makes a lot of sense...

On the note of TV ratings, comparing our numbers to the IRL might be nice for bragging rights, but it's a bit like saying "Look our series is slightly less dead than yours is..." - doesn't get you any sponsors. The ratings have to improve in a big way, and Champcar has to get on network TV or we're all just spinning our wheels in OWRS' cash...and that won't last forever.

[jonovision_man]

OT just a second, this is pathetic.

The IRL race in Japan on ESPN last Friday night drew a 0.1 while Champ Car's debut on SPIKE last Sunday had a 0.2 .....

How do each of those translate into households, though? Cable ratings are odd, since they only take into account people who actually have the channel.

Apparantly, the Champ Car 0.2 is actually >200,000 households, which isn't good but more than twice as much as CART's LBGP on Speed last year. Spike has way more households.

jono

[Corner5]

TG is paying BE a 10 million dollar sanction fee to host F1 at IMS, irl is not turning a profit and is supportrd by the BY400.I hardly think TG has the funds to help BE in an event elsewhere.Pook and BE were discussing a F1 race in another site in the west,at least ,thats what Pook said. From the article it seems that Dover and Toyota are happy with the CC situation. They care about drawing fans to be successful.Even they know the irl will not do that.

[RARules]

TG is paying BE a 10 million dollar sanction fee to host F1 at IMS, irl is not turning a profit and is supportrd by the BY400.I hardly think TG has the funds to help BE in an event elsewhere.Pook and BE were discussing a F1 race in another site in the west,at least ,thats what Pook said. From the article it seems that Dover and Toyota are happy with the CC situation. They care about drawing fans to be successful.Even they know the irl will not do that.

That really implies that France and Co. might have long-term designs on IMS. Look what Sears Roebuck did in the old days - made suppliers dependent on Sears' business, then took it away (threatened to at least), and they then were able to step in and buy the company for cheap. That's how Sears got all of it's "house brands". Now map that to NASCAR and the IMS, and maybe there's a not-althgether-innocent coincidence here.

[Railbird]

while the civic involvement needed for the infrastructure improvements is enough to make me think this whole "rumor" is just that, the last thing I would do is underestimate TG's ability to write the check.

That boy's wallet is fatter than his head.

I still think the only place that can properly accomodate Benie's circus is Las Vegas. Just put a muzzle on Steve Wynn's pit bull.

[chop456]

TG is paying BE a 10 million dollar sanction fee to host F1 at IMS.

Completely false per people in the know.

[Madmaxfan2]

It is no suprise that the battle has turned to Long Beach, OWRS's prize venue.
TG has to try to take it to complete his take over. If he fails, it's lights out for the IRL.

[Corner5]

Completely false per people in the know.

The irls told us that many times in another forum. What's false? I said it was between 7 and 13 million.They corrected me and said it was 10. TG pays BE or BE wouldn't be there.

TG purse strings are being pulled tight. He can only spend money on his irl fiasco.

Plus TG pays for the teams traveling expenses.This story says 11 million.-

article (http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1441762-6078-0,00.html)

[Corner5]

That really implies that France and Co. might have long-term designs on IMS. Look what Sears Roebuck did in the old days - made suppliers dependent on Sears' business, then took it away (threatened to at least), and they then were able to step in and buy the company for cheap. That's how Sears got all of it's "house brands". Now map that to NASCAR and the IMS, and maybe there's a not-althgether-innocent coincidence here.

Bingo, more like a corporate takeover! ;)

[mueber]

I found Les Ungar's comments the most interesting, but I think Robin’s conspiracy theories about the 2005 event are a little far fetched. Boy George was there to stir the pot (cowboy hat :rofl: )and scope out the joint, but, realistically, he can’t do anything until after the 2005 event. At that time, OWRS has to figure what Long Beach is worth, assign a dollar amount to it, and ask it. The last thing they need is a bidding war.

[Spicoli]

The irls told us that many times in another forum. What's false? I said it was between 7 and 13 million.They corrected me and said it was 10. TG pays BE or BE wouldn't be there.

TG purse strings are being pulled tight. He can only spend money on his irl fiasco.

Plus TG pays for the teams traveling expenses.This story says 11 million.-

article (http://www.bday.co.za/bday/content/direct/1,3523,1441762-6078-0,00.html)

Corner - these folks have no Fookin clue what they are talking about.

The arrangment between TG & BE for the USGP is a simple track rental. TG brought the facility up to standards for F1, and BE signed a contract to run there.

IMS/FTG do some promotion, sell some tickets, provide some labor, and get revenue from the beer and soda stands. They also can sell IMS/Gomer500/hickyard400/EArL stuff. Then there is additional revenue from making the suite holders up the price to reflect THREE events.

BE pays them a flat fee and sells the TV rights (the majority of what is of value) controls the catering, other media etc. BE makes money off of all the F1 merch, the USGP merch, keeps all the ticket money, etc.

Bernie could give a rat's anus about whether there are 200 or 200000 in the stands come race day. It's all about the international TV money.


The bottom line is TG spent say - 20 million to rehab IMS for GP course standards. Say he gets 30 mill over 5 years, he's made 10 mill.

[Corner5]

Corner - these folks have no Fookin clue what they are talking about.

The arrangment between TG & BE for the USGP is a simple track rental. TG brought the facility up to standards for F1, and BE signed a contract to run there.

IMS/FTG do some promotion, sell some tickets, provide some labor, and get revenue from the beer and soda stands. They also can sell IMS/Gomer500/hickyard400/EArL stuff. Then there is additional revenue from making the suite holders up the price to reflect THREE events.

BE pays them a flat fee and sells the TV rights (the majority of what is of value) controls the catering, other media etc. BE makes money off of all the F1 merch, the USGP merch, keeps all the ticket money, etc.

Bernie could give a rat's anus about whether there are 200 or 200000 in the stands come race day. It's all about the international TV money.


The bottom line is TG spent say - 20 million to rehab IMS for GP course standards. Say he gets 30 mill over 5 years, he's made 10 mill.

I don't know why you can't believe this. It's been a well-known fact for a long time.It's on all the other F1 boards and no one has ever challenged it.Even the irls confirmed it. It's true BE doesn't care who shows up, he gets paid anyway. That's why he said he will be at Indy as long as they want him,meaning as long as TG pays. In the WT interview,TG said he hopes he can work it out to keep F1.He's the one that needs the attendance and a profit to make paying a sanction fee worth while.He may want BE to renegotiate the fee.BE is looking for other venues.

Anyway, its in the article and there are many others.I'll find some of them when I have time. I believe this, sorry. I have not seen your theory in any writing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:D

[Spicoli]

I don't why you can't believe this. It's been a well-known fact for a long time.It's on all the other F1 boards and no one has ever challenged it.Even the irls confirmed it. It's true BE doesn't care who shows up, he gets paid anyway. That's why he said he will be at Indy as long as they want him,meaning as long as TG pays. In the WT interview,TG said he hopes he can work it out to keep F1.He's the one that needs the attendance and a profit to make paying a sanction fee worth while.He may want BE to renegotiate the fee.BE is looking for other venues.

Anyway, its in the article and there are many others.I'll find some of them when I have time. I believe this, sorry. I have not seen your theory in any writing.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
:D

Oh, OK. :gomer:

[jonovision_man]

The arrangment between TG & BE for the USGP is a simple track rental. TG brought the facility up to standards for F1, and BE signed a contract to run there.


F1 doesn't rent tracks. Tracks rent F1.

jono

[Corner5]

Ah, come on Spicoli, Bernie wouldn't pay anyone especially TG! :p

[lone_groover]

F1 doesn't rent tracks. Tracks rent F1.

jono

http://www.prisma-online.de/image/5d/mmnet_3f1bd4fb525d.jpeg

Right On!

:)

[Railbird]

TG ain't runnin' out of money racefans.

The 500 and 400 are still huge cashcows and the GP is close enough to a wash to make it well worth the prestige investment.

Throw in Toyota and Honda funding half the IRL field and a good portion of the promotional costs and TG is sitting more comfortable than he was just a few years ago .

[Spicoli]

F1 doesn't rent tracks. Tracks rent F1.

jono

And you know that because the tracks that you own rent F1?

Show me a contract.

[Spicoli]

TG ain't runnin' out of money racefans.

The 500 and 400 are still huge cashcows and the GP is close enough to a wash to make it well worth the prestige investment.

Throw in Toyota and Honda funding half the IRL field and a good portion of the promotional costs and TG is sitting more comfortable than he was just a few years ago .

I agree 100%.

Unless Brickman agrees. :gomer:

[sundaydriver2]

Spicoli, I believe what you are saying about the track rental.

However, why would BE do it? When everyone else is shoveling out hugh dinero for an F1 race and then BE signs a track rental with the Idiot.

Why?

I'm I missing something??

[Railbird]

You're missing the fact that Bernie realizes what the American market is worth and that the "idiot" is one of the few capable and willing to host the circus in said market.

[dando]

That really implies that France and Co. might have long-term designs on IMS. Look what Sears Roebuck did in the old days - made suppliers dependent on Sears' business, then took it away (threatened to at least), and they then were able to step in and buy the company for cheap. That's how Sears got all of it's "house brands". Now map that to NASCAR and the IMS, and maybe there's a not-althgether-innocent coincidence here.
Hmmm, kinds sounds like today's Wal*Mart, eh? I would bet ca$h money that ISC/France has a hand in Indy ownership someday.

-Kevin

[Formula 409]

TG ain't runnin' out of money racefans.

The 500 and 400 are still huge cash cows and the GP is close enough to a wash to make it well worth the prestige investment.

But isn't the very existence of the USGP a telling sign? I mean, it serves no other purpose but to be a feather in the IMS cap. It doesn't earn money, it doesn't draw a US TV audience, and it doesn't do jack for F1 in terms of US visibility. It's a total vanity race, to go along with his vanity series. There's no real thought of money, just ego.

How much money was spent re-modeling the track, tearing up the infield, building the new pagoda and the FIA spec garages? I don't think they've made that money back yet.

And I'll take issue with the 500 being a cash cow. When you're spending as much as TG must to get to 33 cars, that profit margin has got to be taking a dive. And do you put the IRL/Indy 500 TV contract money on the IRL side of the ledger or the Indy 500 side?

It's all BY400 money. That's the key.

[dando]

You're missing the fact that Bernie realizes what the American market is worth....

Huh? IMS/F1 can't sell out a single race, and the market has what value? It's not the eyeballs on TV, or F1 would be on the Mouse network rather than Speed. The fact that there are no US-based teams or drivers speaks volumes about the US view of F1: it's like soccer....it's nice, but it's not ours, so who really cares? Sure there are a few US sponsors, but only because they are focused on growing internationally. As long as BE has *countries* falling all over themselves to build new venues, etc. to host F1 races, BE doesn't need the US/Canada other than to maintain worldwide interest @ a certain level.

-Kevin

[Spicoli]

Spicoli, I believe what you are saying about the track rental.

However, why would BE do it? When everyone else is shoveling out hugh dinero for an F1 race and then BE signs a track rental with the Idiot.

Why?

I'm I missing something??

Because with this deal, F1 races in USA. Where else was that gonna happen? :saywhat:

Marketing. You can't call yourself the premier series without being in the only "SuperPower" left in the world? Can you? The richest, most importnat, etc blah blah blah.....

make sense?

[Ankf00]

Because with this deal, F1 races in USA. Where else was that gonna happen? :saywhat:

Marketing. You can't call yourself the premier series without being in the only "SuperPower" left in the world? Can you? The richest, most importnat, etc blah blah blah.....

make sense?

not that I dont buy your story, but WRC and MotoGP get along fiiiine w/o this continent, well until the Mexican Rally, but whatever...

[mueber]

I know nothing about the BE/IMS arrangement, but I find it hard to believe it is anything more than: Bernie makes money, it stays; Bernie loses money or can make more money somewhere else, it goes.

F-1 is the only auto racing series that counts on an international scale and governments are throwing money at Bernie in an effort to get F-1 races.

Bernie has all the prestige he can handle right now, and there is still no noticeable F-1 presence in the United States that most auto racing fans, and the public in general, can see.

[SurfaceUnits]

How much money was spent re-modeling the track, tearing up the infield, building the new pagoda and the FIA spec garages? I don't think they've made that money back yet. $65 Million USD was the figure given by the track.

[Spicoli]

not that I dont buy your story, but WRC and MotoGP get along fiiiine w/o this continent, well until the Mexican Rally, but whatever...

Ok.

Think of it in terms of exposure, B2B, corporate entertainment, uber-demographics, etc.

You ever notice this:

Speed carries F1, their numbers are the same or worse than Champ was on any given day, yet you have comemrcials for BMW, Porsche, Saab, Mercedes, Lexus, etc......AND F1 gets PAID for the right to broadcast the race.

Champ gets skunked on the deal - you know how bad it was....

Anyway - there are many other calcualtions to find value in an event. Evidently, BE is happy with what he is doing. So is TG, and quite frankly, so am I. I'd love to see a better venue - a TRUE road course (been there/discussed that), but this is what makes BE happy, and its in my backyard, and I get 3 days of F1 for a total cost of about $100, so I could give a F.

On the other hand - like mueber syas - if Bernie is making money - it stays. It doesn't - it leaves.

Being able to "add" the American demographic to your marketbase is incredibly good, and I have to believe they are damn good numbers. Otherwise, why would Lexus, Porsche, BMW, etc run spots at 6am on Sundays?

[pchall]

$65 Million USD was the figure given by the track.


65? and they still have a track that makes Bahrain look good. :rolleyes:

[Corner5]

Everybody's a little right about everything. :)

Here's what I know-

BE is getting paid a sanction fee by TG.

TG has money, sure, but the family is cutting him off from spending anymore inheritance.

The BY400 supports the irl

BE does not need attendance for profit but in order to grow the popularity of F1 in the US it definitely becomes a factor for selling the series to sponsors and tv and such.The USGP has been steadily losing fans since its inception. That may be the reason for looking to other venues along with other variables. ;)

Disclaimer: these are my opinions from things I have read.Don't kill the messenger! for entertainment purposes only! :D

Oh and who really is in Corp.88? :confused:

[Spicoli]

Everybody's a little right about everything. :)

Here's what I know-

BE is getting paid a sanction fee by TG.

TG has money, sure, but the family is cutting him off from spending anymore inheritance.

The BY400 supports the irl

BE does not need attendance for profit but in order to grow the popularity of F1 in the US it definitely becomes a factor for selling the series to sponsors and tv and such.The USGP has been steadily losing fans since its inception. That may be the reason for looking to other venues along with other variables. ;)

Disclaimer: these are my opinions from things I have read.Don't kill the messenger! for entertainment purposes only! :D

Oh and who really is in Corp.88? :confused:

Disclaimer: The stuff you read is wrong! Jesus dood - believe what you want, but have some common ****ing sense. You sound like Brickhead.

[KLang]

You sound like Brickhead.

Owww, really low blow. ;)

[Ankf00]

Ok.

Think of it in terms of exposure, B2B, corporate entertainment, uber-demographics, etc.

You ever notice this:

Speed carries F1, their numbers are the same or worse than Champ was on any given day, yet you have comemrcials for BMW, Porsche, Saab, Mercedes, Lexus, etc......AND F1 gets PAID for the right to broadcast the race.

Champ gets skunked on the deal - you know how bad it was....



Being able to "add" the American demographic to your marketbase is incredibly good, and I have to believe they are damn good numbers. Otherwise, why would Lexus, Porsche, BMW, etc run spots at 6am on Sundays?

they get paid, cool for them, gives em something they want and potential for growth...

my point regarded F1 being able to live fat and happy without the US, and they really still don't have the US. WRC and MotoGP are premiere and high-tech, North America is a big bike market, yet MotoGP sees no reason to pay Barber to come here. And as for WRC, I don't think we'll be seeing too many STi's and Evo's and Focus's being sold down in Mexico between the unemployment and the wage differential.

On a side note, I would believe that Lexus et al run their spots because comparatively they get to hit the demographic they want at a ridiculous cheap cost, not b/c they're getting lots of exposure to their American market.

[datachicane]

Why would BE give TG a virtual freebie when others pay big $$$?

No big mystery here.
Why does NASCAR/ISC prop up the IRL?
Why does NASCAR/ISC prop up Grand Am?
Answer those, remember the sorts of barbs CART and F1 were flinging at each other in the mid '90s, and you'll know exactly why BE's more than happy to throw TG a bone...

[jonovision_man]

And you know that because the tracks that you own rent F1?

Show me a contract.

F1's business model: promoter pays BE money, BE brings F1.

That's the way it's been and is commonly accepted. You "show me a contract" where this isn't the case.

For instance, the argument over sanctioning fees w.r.t. the British GP:
http://www.ananova.com/sport/story/sm_764801.html

Octagon rents track from BRDC, then gives Bernie a heap of money for F1 to race there.

F1 does not rent tracks, tracks rent F1.

[sundaydriver2]

F1's business model: promoter pays BE money, BE brings F1.

That's the way it's been and is commonly accepted. You "show me a contract" where this isn't the case.

For instance, the argument over sanctioning fees w.r.t. the British GP:
http://www.ananova.com/sport/story/sm_764801.html

Octagon rents track from BRDC, then gives Bernie a heap of money for F1 to race there.

F1 does not rent tracks, tracks rent F1.

I dont think anyone is going to see evidence of a contract.

Spicoli does have his connections and I believe him. It does sound ridicules that BE rents the track but I believe it's more to throw the F1 engine mfg's a bone than it is for FTG. I think I read where they were bithcing about F1 not being in the U.S.


I really hope BE takes his circus elsewhere, preferrably to Vegas.

[Spicoli]

.....Spicoli does have his connections and I believe him. It does sound ridicules that BE rents the track but I believe it's more to throw the F1 engine mfg's a bone than it is for FTG. I think I read where they were bithcing about F1 not being in the U.S......


My source would not lie about this. He reads these forums and corrected me about 2 years ago when I ALSO thought it was crazy (BE track renting from TG).

But SD2 probably hit thee nail on the head better than I did. It's all about being able to say to MB, Yoda, BMW, Ferrari, etc - We also race in the richest, most powerful country in the world - USA. And its proably helpful to team managers when they have to go in front of the bean counters asking for money.

[Railbird]

IMO

the pressure to be in the US market could easily result in a second GP in the states and I would think Las Vegas would be the most attractive addition.

With Max bitching about cost cutting you might even see the North American events ran as a "swing" with the circus on this side of the pond for a month.

[Madmaxfan2]

I agree with many for points stated here. The USGP reason for existence is to damage CART by two interested parties, it is not about making money. TG will claim is not a real enemy of road racing because he hosts this event, and Bernie will try to sell the idea that F1 is the only top level formula car road racing on the planet in the country where his idea is challenged the greatest.

[mueber]

I agree with many for points stated here. The USGP reason for existence is to damage CART by two interested parties, it is not about making money. TG will claim is not a real enemy of road racing because he hosts this event, and Bernie will try to sell the idea that F1 is the only top level formula car road racing on the planet in the country where his idea is challenged the greatest.

That might have been true at the start, but it doesn't matter now. CART is not a threat to F-1 and won't be for a long time. I still expect that the only reason the USGP is at Gomerville is because Bernie makes money on the deal. The idea that it is to please BMW, Mercedes Benz and Jaguar really doesn't make sense because no one in the USA is paying attention.

Bernie saw a chance to take advantage of Boy George’s business acumen, and did.

[Madmaxfan2]

That might have been true at the start, but it doesn't matter now. CART is not a threat to F-1 and won't be for a long time. I still expect that the only reason the USGP is at Gomerville is because Bernie makes money on the deal. The idea that it is to please BMW, Mercedes Benz and Jaguar really doesn't make sense because no one in the USA is paying attention.

Bernie saw a chance to take advantage of Boy George’s business acumen, and did.

So Boy George continues to lose money on the deal. Of course he can still claim he is no enemy of road racing, despite his repeated attempts to kill CART. Bernie is the big winner in this deal, right?

[mueber]

So Boy George continues to lose money on the deal. Of course he can still claim he is no enemy of road racing, despite his repeated attempts to kill CART. Bernie is the big winner in this deal, right?

Right!

[CANADIAN HOTSPUR]

Very Interesting Read (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/autoindustry/10775/)


Ted
Go to www.longbeachgp.com they have dates for next years race and it's listing the return of the champ car world series!!!!!!!