Mendoza Line

[Napoleon]

What driver in C^RT, whether now or in the past, sets the "Mendoza Line" in your mind.

[Chaos]

it's gotta be Hiro, simply because of his longevity.

[JoeBob]

I'd have to say Mauricio Gugelmin. He wasn't particularly fast, but he wasn't particularly slow either.

[pchall]

For a number of years Jourdain at Herdez-Bettenhausen seemed to be the Mendoza line.

Last year he stepped it up a bit and lost that dubious honor to Mikey Andretti.

[rabbit]

Ummm, what's the "Mendoza Line?":gomer:

[Turn7]

Max Papis and Christian Fittipaldi fit the bill to me.

[pchall]

Originally posted by rabbit
Ummm, what's the "Mendoza Line?":gomer:

Obviously you don't cover sports that use sticks. ;)

Willy Mendoza was a ballplayer notorious for his bad batting average.

If memory serves, anything below .200 was considered the Mendoza Line and marked the standard for futility at the plate.

[mnkywrch]

Christian.

2003... who knows? Tags, perhaps?

[Hink]

Gee - and I tought "Mendoza Line" was somthing BigIrlFan made up.

Hiro seems like the best answer.

Diaz was close in Atlantics (what - 4 years to win?) but there you really have to give it to Bob Siska!!!

[pchall]

Originally posted by Hink
Gee - and I tought "Mendoza Line" was somthing BigIrlFan made up.

Hiro seems like the best answer.

Diaz was close in Atlantics (what - 4 years to win?) but there you really have to give it to Bob Siska!!!

I think you just set the Mendoza Line way too low with Siska.
The Mendoza Line is a standard of futility that still kept Willy in the Bigs.

[dirtyboy]

Hero should only be judged using the Dirty Sanchez line:D

[RTKar]

I prefer American ride buyers. Charlie Nearburg, the ultimate "I have too much money and I want to drive a Champcar buy a ride guy" but he didn't have the longevity of Dennis Vitolo. So, I'll have to go with Vitolo...... I don't want to pick on Hiro, he was just a foreign ride buyer.:gomer:

[chop456]

Originally posted by dirtyboy
Hero should only be judged using the Dirty Sanchez line:D

Now that's funny. :D

[DaveL]

For those unaware of the refernce, "Mendoza" was Mario Mendoza who was a utility infielder for the Pittsburgh Pirates in the 1970s. His highest batting average with the Pirates was .220. He had one other year over .200 with the Bucs. But hey, he hit .245 with the Mariners in 1980.

Anyhoo, as for the CART racing Mendoza Line, I'd go with Raul Boesel-a midpacker if there ever was one.

[pchall]

Originally posted by DaveL

Anyhoo, as for the CART racing Mendoza Line, I'd go with Raul Boesel-a midpacker if there ever was one.

Good choice.

He always had the best tan in the paddock and I often thought that if he spent less time at Impanema and more time in the gym he might have done better.

[patm]

Boesel is a good choice for the Mendoza line along with the bulk of the cart drivers that went to the earl. lazier, Goodyear, Cheever...

patm

[Napoleon]

Originally posted by pchall
Good choice.

He always had the best tan in the paddock and I often thought that if he spent less time at Impanema and more time in the gym he might have done better.

:rofl:

I should know better then to be reading post while drinking coffee.

Oh and for the record some people consider the Mendoza line to be .215, at least that is what a Google search told me when I was checking whether I was spelling Mendoza correct.

[IlliniRacer]

I always used Luis Garcia, Jr. as in:

"Oh my God, He's slower than Garcia."
or
"Well, at least he's ahead of Garcia."

[Railbird]

Bill Alsup anyone?

From the days when Penske would sell a ride to most anyone.

[Hink]

Garcia isn't a bad pick. I actually watched what may have been his only competitive pass for position in CART. He was going by Marques in the Panasonic Swift at the end of the backstraight at Portland late in the race for about 12th place or so. Lots of tire smoke so it would have made a great photo. I couldn't believe what I saw.

.

On Alsup - Though winless, He did finish 2nd in the championship in 1981 IIRC. For '82 he had the PC9-C (the only one) while many other teams bought the PC9-B which was proven. The main Penske drivers, Mears and "that damned Cogan" had the PC10 which was the car of the year. I'll give you Alsup if I can raise you a Dick Simon.

[Railbird]

I'll see your Dick Simon and raise you a Jim Hickman.

[DaveL]

Originally posted by Railbird
I'll see your Dick Simon and raise you a Jim Hickman.

Uh Railbird buddy, given that Jim Hickman was fatally injured at Milwaukee in his rookie season, I don't thing that was the best reference to give.

[Hot Rod Otis]

Shinji Nakano.

I was gonna lump all the Japanese drivers, save AJ's new top-gun, Shiggy, all together. Call it The Mendoza-san Line. But then I got to thinking. Nakano raced in CART for what? 3 years? Can anybody name any Shinji Nakano moment in those 3 years, either good or bad, that stands out? I think back now and can't remember anything, good or bad this guy did. He didn't to anything really stupid like Takagi was fond of doing. He wasn't over his head like Shiggy or a menace on the track like Hiro or Naoki Hattori. But on the other hand, did he ever lead a single lap? I remember him running 2nd to Kanaan @ Nazareth for a few laps in '01, but he was on a different pit strategy. He defined mediocrity. 3 totally forgettable years.

[JT265]

Originally posted by Railbird
I'll see your Dick Simon and raise you a Jim Hickman.

Dick Simon is a good choice, but of course back in the day none of us bothered to calculate the aerodynamic drag afforded a really loud necktie.

[Dave99]

Dean Hall?

[Railbird]

, given that Jim Hickman was fatally injured at Milwaukee in his rookie season,

Uh DaveL buddy, I was there that day just as I was present when the ride buying jet jockey "won" ROY at Indy with a twelve laps down finish.

Being dead is no excuse for being a ride buying hack.


Trivia:

Hickman died when his throttle stuck going into turn one at Milwaukee.

His rookie Crewchief's name?

Larry Curry

[Eagle104]

I was there that day, too, 'bird..but had left the track already. I think it happened during a practice period at the end of the qualifying day? Could be wrong. And didn't he just pick up a new sponsor that wknd too? I want to say he had Schlitz sponsorship at Indy. Can't believe it's over 20yrs ago now.

For the Mendoza Line: how about Todd Gibson. I remember him driving a very old Eagle, but think he ran most, if not all, of a season, at least. Can't remember just when, though. Now that I think about it, it might have even been before CART.

[Railbird]

I believe it was Strohs Eagle and he had it at Indy IIRC. It was some family deal with a local (Atlanta?) distributer rather than the main office.

[Eagle104]

Strohs, ci..thanks.

[RTKar]

Hey what about Floyd himself? I almost forgot about him.......

[Railbird]

Good point RTKar

Floyd and Mike Chandler were both a couple of rich kids that were lucky enough to walk away from a job they were never qualified to do.

[DaveL]

Point taken, 'Bird.

Can I get a vote for Randy Lewis?

[Railbird]

Good Lord Dave

Randy Lewis had slipped my mind.

I need to have a Donald Davidson moment while I flip through my mental files to remember how bad that guy was.

[rabbit]

So out of this year's crop of drivers, who's above the line and who's below it? My picks:

ABOVE
Bore-day
Junky
Fifi
PT
Swervia
Michael Jordan Jr.
Jeemy
Adrian
Moreno
RHR
Tagliani
Manning

BELOW
Camathias
Dominguez
Lavin
Gonzalez
Haberfeld
Lemarie

[RTKar]

... I should add Dale Coyne rumbling along in a stock block Chevy and dare I mention Chris Kneifel?

[JoeBob]

I think there should be a certain number of starts required before becoming the "Mendoza Line" of CART. Remember, Mendoza played in the big leagues for 8 seasons. So, the Mendoza line is "worst you can be, while still getting paid to play."

I figure you need to have at least 50 starts in order to qualify, you can't have won a race, and you need to have a start/podium ratio under 50/1. (Which barely saves A.J. Foyt, who had 2 podiums in 84 starts.)

So, here's my nominees:

Driver Starts Podiums
Tony Bettenhausen 94 1
Scott Brayton 147 1
Domenic Dobson 55 1
Josele Garza 88 1
Mike Groff 55 0
Howdy Holmes 72 1
Michel Jourdain, Jr 120 1
Buddy Lazier 55 0
Randy Lewis 80 0
King Hiro 117 0
Shinji Nakano 56 0
Oriol Servia 54 1
Dick Simon 78 0

I'd probably disqualify anybody who owned the car he drove. Its hard to get fired when you're the boss. Jourdain's saving grace is that he's still a few years under 30. If I had to pick somebody, I'd probably name it the "Josele Garza line" just because that has a fun sounding ring to it.

[DjDrOmusic]

I don't pretend to know anything about the Mendoza line, but since it's a baseball term, and this is racing we're talking about, shouldn't it be called the Cheever line???;) :D

[pchall]

Doc has a good point here --

From now on it should be the Cheever Line.