"Mandatory" TV Ratings Thread

[Jag_Warrior]

I was reading through the "Crack Forum" thread and followed the link over to their forum. I don't go there very often, as I usually click away after a few reads... shaking my head muttering "poor clueless b@stards".

Anyway, I found it amusing how they blame Indy's current sorry state on changing times. It's not Lord Tony's fault, it's the changing times. Uh... yeah. A couple of them were whining about not being able to place bets on this year's IRL 500 @ Indy. That made me think of the Kentucky Derby, and I wondered what happened with the TV ratings on this traditional event. The overnights hit 8.3 and I believe the final was a 9.3... the highest since the early 90's (at one time, Indy and the Kentucky Derby produced roughly similar TV ratings). I don't know much about horse racing, but the consensus seems to be that when an "interesting" horse is running, the ratings go up. Maybe Indy's ratings wouldn't be falling, and the IRL faithful (degenerate) gamblers would be able to place their bets, if Tony had more interesting "horses" in his race. Changing times has nothing to do with it, IMO.

:shakehead poor clueless b@stards

[racer2c]

Ok, I'm standing up to face the inevitable onslaught.
More American drivers. Period. If open wheel racing wants to grab America's attention, they need American drivers (that win). Thinking back to the '80's in CART, you had many house hold names in open wheel racing. I remember the fan base for those guys also who held on to Lil' Al and Mickey after their elders retired until they just faded away. Factor in the split and it's no mystery as to why open wheel racing is where it is. Even though we hard cores try to make a big complicated mess (which it is) out of it all, the big picture is quite simple and NASCAR reaped and continues to reap the rewards.
Of course 'real racing' should be about the best of the best and not who paid the most to get the good seat, but if open wheel racing wants to break into the mainstream (again), they need mainstream drivers. Didn't Tony's first vision mention something about that? It starts at the bottom. I was watching a show about a go-kart racing family and they all wore t-shirts of their favorite Nextel Cup driver. Road racing go-karters, should not have stock car oval racing in their dreams.
It really boils down to what the Three Amigos want their series to be. "Real racing. Real sport"? Well, then it will always continue to be the niche sport that us hard core fan follows. NASCAR has become a juggernaut who's only destruction will be itself.
Do they want to take it mainstream? Then get the mainstream lures. It bothers me when I read and see the Red Bull American driver search for a future American in F1. The nurturing should be for an American series i.e. Champ Car. Shuey incredible achievements in F1 did not and are not making even the smallest blip on the American radar screen. Why? Mainstream America couldn't care less about a German formula car driver no matter how many world championships he wins. No wonder they're searching for an American F1 driver.
The talk today is of " What if Jeff Gordon..." Well, I'll tell you right now, Gordon would have single handedly made CART a household name.
My family and friends asked me earlier this year who I was pulling for in Champ Car this year and I replied..."the Americans, of course."

[Jag_Warrior]

I see where you're coming from. I agree that to get the sport a broader fanbase in the U.S., we'll need more American drivers. But I think they'll need to be somewhat established... I don't think they'll build a following - I think they'd have to bring their own fans with them.

I guess here's where I see a problem: in order to get people to watch more formula car races, they'll have to have SOME idea who these Americans are, right? At one time, you could make a name for yourself at Indy, and then if you raced in CART IndyCar, people would follow you, because they knew your name. So there's Sam Hornish and Sarah Fisher (did they squeeze her into a car yet this season?) and whatever other Americans race there, yet their ratings still suck. Why? I think it's because they're essentially nobody's racing in a series VERY few people know or care about. And the ONE race that used to be a big deal, where you could become a household name, is less popular with viewers than the average NASCAR race.

Not trying to put words in your mouth, but are you saying that if an established NASCAR type guy came to race in CCWS or the IRL, that would make a BIG difference? Well, I would agree with that! It helped Grand Am's Daytona 24 attendance and ratings earlier this year. I was really hoping that Kurt Busch would at least do some Champ Car one-offs. Maybe if you could pay a guy like this enough he'd do it for a couple of years? H#ll, has anyone tried to throw some money at that idea? I like Jacques Villeneuve, but I think Kurt (or someone at that level in NASCAR) would help the popularity of the series more in the U.S. But since a move to IRL or CCWS would be seen as a move down... maybe a career killer, you'd have to front some heavy bucks.

Great post, R2c! I enjoyed reading that.

[pchall]

For some reason all I want to say is that the entire aesthetic experience of going to champcar races and the nature of champcar fandom is so far removed from NASCAR that emulating it or even trying to borrow a driver or two for a cheap ratings boost would do very little for the sport.

[racer2c]

For some reason all I want to say is that the entire aesthetic experience of going to champcar races and the nature of champcar fandom is so far removed from NASCAR that emulating it or even trying to borrow a driver or two for a cheap ratings boost would do very little for the sport.

Emulating NASCAR is what Tony's plan is and we see how that's going. I'm not suggesting open wheel racing grab some NASCAR star in hopes that it will bring instant success but rather expressing my belief that true growth potential for open wheel racing lies in becoming a product that Americans identify with. Champ Car has developed an international personality which gives it a very unique flavor but narrows it's fan base.
We Internet hard cores have been pontificating for years about how CART was once poised to do battle with NASCAR until Tony's tantrum. We wrote a million words in thousands of posts about what CART should do in our opinion in order to get back to that level. Well, now that NASCAR has emerged as a mainstream sport, Champ Car would have to rise to that level in order to compete. In order to go that mainstream they would morph into some concoction that would more than likely lose all integrity.
I read a few years ago, from someone inside CART who claimed that the sponsors would be very happy and content if the TV rating were a consistent 2.5 to 3.0 share for each race. I would make this part of the Champ Car mission statement. It is a realistic goal along with having a schedule that sells out at every venue.
As for the IRL. This year is a wash. Tony, I'm sure, is selling everything on his next vision. In this case it's road racing in '05. Even with all of the big money sponsors, teams, Toyota and Honda dollars, the IRL has become completely and utterly irrelevant.

[Formula 409]

I'll say something that sounds insane and strange. I'm good at that.

Just as important to American drivers is brand name sponsors. Having recognizable brand names is a key to getting people to watch.

People will look at a series with major, brand-name sponsors on the cars and transfer the trust they have in the brand name to the cars on the track.

Think about it. As a consumer, a lot of time and effort is spent by companies building a trust factor with their big brand names. And once you have a decent buying experience you tend to stick with that brand. It's proven consumer behavior. It's elementary marketing. Once you like a brand name, you tend to stick with it and even identify with it.

Could you not root for a "Krispy Kreme Car?" That's a good example of a trusted and well-liked brand name. Even if it was a foreign-born driver who didn't speak a lick of english, you'd still like to see the Krispy Kreme car win, wouldn't you? I would.

And that would translate with a lot of brand names. Coca Cola? Nokia? Mercedes? BMW? Nike? Budweiser? Apple? Would you tend to root for them, or at least not root against them?

If Joe Lunchpail is tuning around the dial, and saw this cool, fast racing series and easily recognized the brands, he would believe the series has a higher level of credibility. The brand he trusts, trusts ChampCar. I think this is vital for ChampCar to step up.

[KLang]

I don't think so.

During the early to mid nineties we had lots of sponsors, decent TV ratings, great attendance at most tracks and plenty of non-American drivers. As I recall two of the more popular drivers during that period were Zanardi and Montoya, neither American.

[racer2c]

I don't think so.

During the early to mid nineties we had lots of sponsors, decent TV ratings, great attendance at most tracks and plenty of non-American drivers. As I recall two of the more popular drivers during that period were Zanardi and Montoya, neither American.

I knew the Montoya/Zanardi factor would enter in, but with in five posts?. Gag.

Popular among racing aficionado's? Undoubtedly. House hold names? Hardly.

[GOFAST1]

Yeah, I see a problem. Montoya and Zanardi are very hard names to remember. However, a great American name like Andretti stuck. Give me a break! Montoya, Zanaardi, and Mansel did more for American open-wheel than the rest of them combined by shattering all the records and numbers and bringing excitement to what used to be pretty much club racing. Andretti senior, Paul Tracy, and Greg Moore were the icing on the cake. You want American? Foyt is still racing at indy. Oops! He's been lapped quite a few times. Bring on the best! Go Champcar!

[racer2c]

And here they come...you guys just don't get it. Now we'll get the posts proclaiming that I am politicking for a return of Billy Boat and Donnie Beechler... Double gag.

[KLang]

I knew the Montoya/Zanardi factor would enter in, but with in five posts?. Gag.

Popular among racing aficionado's? Undoubtedly. House hold names? Hardly.

House hold names?????

I think you are mistaken if you think anyone in open wheel racing was ever a house hold name outside of Indiana. Andretti, Foyt and Unser had some name recognition but that was 20-30 years ago, pre-dating Cart.

[racer2c]

House hold names?????

I think you are mistaken if you think anyone in open wheel racing was ever a house hold name outside of Indiana. Andretti, Foyt and Unser had some name recognition but that was 20-30 years ago, pre-dating Cart.

Wrong.

[Rogue Leader]

House hold names?????

I think you are mistaken if you think anyone in open wheel racing was ever a house hold name outside of Indiana. Andretti, Foyt and Unser had some name recognition but that was 20-30 years ago, pre-dating Cart.

I live on Long Island, NY and in the 80's and early 90s Andretti and Unser were both household names around here, and people here really did watch the Indy 500. Now whenever i talk about open wheel cars I have to say "Indy Cars" before people even know what Im talking about.

Oh and noone here even knows what the IRL is, apparently "Open wheel NASCAR" dosnt exist in NY....

... and PS, now me and my local SCCA region runs an autocross every year the same day as the Indy 500. Its always our highest attended event. :)

[Ziggy]

First off, Great post! racer2c and formula409 both hit on great points. The American public for sure knew who Zanardi was, and to some lesser degree Montoya. (pre Indy 500 win, which was diminshed from a PR standpoint) Why? Target, a store where lots of average Joe's shop, did a fine job of telling you about them with very well produced commercials. This was a great PR job, and folks far and wide knew they were looking at a very fast little Italian RaceCar driver.

For all it's faults, USAC did get tons of milage out of their last "little Italian RaceCar driver" Mario Andretti. It really stands the test of time, for Mario could BRING IT, just like Alex. USAC used to run the National Championship and folks from Springfield IL, Syracuse NY, Milwaukee, Phoenix, Hanford CA, Riverside CA, Ontario CA, Pocono PA, Langhorne PA, Trenton NJ, Nazareth PA, all got to see the drivers and cars who raced at the Indy 500. They exploited the hell out of these guys. Granted, they were plenty talented at the top. Throw in a feeder series of blood and guts Sprint and Midget racers who would kill themselves to move up the caste system, and you have great theater. The series was dominated by car owners, much as it is today. Difference? Money, and more importantly, the competition for the sporting dollar has gotten alot more competitive. Golf, NBA, NHL, NFL, NASCAR etc.

It has to be a well thought out plan to bring somebody along into the American conscience. Bet your bottom dollar Pepsi and DuPont groomed Jeff Gordon from the word go, and the folks at Home Depot are still waiting for their investment to burn them.... its a risk they think is worth taking.

Its a real problem. We have seen the "guys coming back to IMS" and that has not made the turnstyles turn any faster. There is not one young dynamic racer in the lot of the IRL. Guys like Paul Tracy do sell interest. The sport of openwheel racing would have been much better off if Paul had been awarded the win he deserved at Indy in 2001. Castro Neve's comes across as very fake, and Hornish is about as egmatic as a cup full of washers. Take into account the rest of the "reachers" and there is nothing there which is really very marketable. Tony Kaanan? another clueless Brazilian. DeFerran was/is a class guy (Im so happy he retired, a very nice person) Manning? Maybe, but he needs to quit letting IMS/Jack Myroot style of promo. Whomever was responsible for the Montegi promo's should be fired on the spot. Those duck stances and wrestler poses were sooooo stupid.

Champcar should really do something with AJ, the yuck it up section before the LBGP was very sophmoric IMO. Why could they not have gotten with his folks and shown pictures of him growing up and racing? He has been doing it since he was in short pants. We dont want or need racecar drivers who are trendy. We need guys who stand on the gas and put butts in the seats. Nationality should not have anything to do with it. Zanardi did that, Montoya did that, Nigel did that, Mario did that. They were real people who gave real answers to real questions. None of this hokey add hock posing chicken bull****

end of rant

Great thread

Ziggy

[Jag_Warrior]

Don't get me wrong, guys. I wasn't wrapping myself in the 'Murican flag there. My favorite drivers have tended to be foreign born. But if it comes down to Kurt Busch or Alex Sperafico, I'd rather see Kurt in a Champ Car. My preference has nothing to do with Kurt's nationality. But in reality, I think he'd do more to add some sponsors to this series than ALL of the Speraficos combined...what is there, like 11 of them?! I think he'd draw more attention from more people for a wider variety of reasons. I'm using him as one example... I could give a sh!^ who it is, as long as we can get off those .2's on Spike.

Hey, it's been a great, sunny Mother's Day. I don't want to insert any doom & gloom into this (unless I'm harping on Indy's death prattle). I was just suggesting that the sport could be lifted if we had some drivers who had some fans on the way in the door. Spike is a cute idea, but Bronte doin' the jiggle is drawing more viewers than the races. People are going to have to be given a reason to watch... they'll have to be drawn back in. Or, we can be elitist and arrogant (personally, I have nothing against that :D ) and when the Amigos tire of spending their coin and Paul Tracy goes NASCARing, we'll be talking about the good old days... when the series was still on TV.

Back to my original post: if I was a gambler, I'd place a bet on Indy's TV ratings... or how bad the Co-Cola 60,000 will beat it. Sort of an over/under thing, I guess.

[Ziggy]

Jag, I respected your post. You made some great points as well. If it were eazy to fix, I would hope that someone would fix it! I think it needs promotion from the sponsors as well, and it would lend to more "pallatable entree" if the driver were American to start with.

AJ is that guy (wish his name was different, but it could help)!

Ziggy

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't think they necessarily need American drivers, moreso drivers who have raced in America. Could be an Italian, Brazilian, Canadian, etc. but they need to get drivers into Champ Cars that have come from the ladder series that are in America.

And there needs to be a huge improvement in the exposure those ladder series' get. In stock car racing there are hundreds of fans watching late models, and thousands watching ASA, ARCA, etc. in person and on live TV. And don't even get started on BGN and Trucks, which are bigger than Champ Car and IRL put together. Then look at open wheel, and how spectator unfriendly that karting, Skip Barber 2.0L, the dozen other spec series, etc. are, and how the only TV coverage of the ladders we get is one week tape delay of Atlantics. Any wonder why NASCAR puts their drivers through the ranks so much more efficiently?

[Jag_Warrior]

Jag, I respected your post. You made some great points as well. If it were eazy to fix, I would hope that someone would fix it! I think it needs promotion from the sponsors as well, and it would lend to more "pallatable entree" if the driver were American to start with.

AJ is that guy (wish his name was different, but it could help)!

Ziggy

Sorry, Ziggy. I didn't address your post. When you said "chicken bullsh!^", I knew you were loaded for bear and I decided to just keep walking. When a man is wound up enough to say "chicken bullsh!^", I think it's best to just leave him alone. I read a study that said the words "chicken bullsh!^" were spoken 79.8% of the time, just prior to someone gettin' a cap popped in they @$$. Right before Tyson almost bit Holyfield's ear off, he was heard to scream "chicken bullsh!^!". Oh yeah! Don't believe me? Look it up. It's on the ESPN site.

Nah, I know this isn't easy to fix. It sucks where this has gone. Reduced to being happy that Hemelgarn might add some cars to the grid. Oh, the humanity!!! Yeah, maybe they can get Allmendinger or the others to catch on (do a commercial where various people try to spell that fuxers name!). I hope it works out. If not, I'll never forget what George has done to this sport. The more I think about it... chicken bullsh!^!!!!!!!! :mad:

Sorry Ziggy. I got to that part of your post and I went into a laughing fit. I got tears in my eyes here! You don't know how hard it is to type when you're struggling to breathe and see. :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[racer2c]

I don't think they necessarily need American drivers, moreso drivers who have raced in America. Could be an Italian, Brazilian, Canadian, etc. but they need to get drivers into Champ Cars that have come from the ladder series that are in America.

And there needs to be a huge improvement in the exposure those ladder series' get. In stock car racing there are hundreds of fans watching late models, and thousands watching ASA, ARCA, etc. in person and on live TV. And don't even get started on BGN and Trucks, which are bigger than Champ Car and IRL put together. Then look at open wheel, and how spectator unfriendly that karting, Skip Barber 2.0L, the dozen other spec series, etc. are, and how the only TV coverage of the ladders we get is one week tape delay of Atlantics. Any wonder why NASCAR puts their drivers through the ranks so much more efficiently?

:thumbup: I agree.

[Madmaxfan2]

You know. it all depends on what drives the people's interest in the sport. Yes, American drivers with pronouncable names are a must if you want to follow drivers that appeal to the dumbed down standards of pop culture and the celebrity worship that follows. NASCAR and potentially Champ Car and the IRL can fill that requirement. If it is entertainment of action, again, NASCAR and potentially Champ Car and IRL fit. But, if technology and severity of the test of man and machine is what drives your interest, NASCAR and the IRL fall off the page. Only Champ Car and F1 meet that requirement.
People flocked to pole day in the pre-IRL days to watch history being made, a new pole day record, the challenge of going 230+ mph on a track initially designed for a speed of 70 mph. Bubble day was about cheating the odds and out-smarting more expensive teams and making the big race. Imagine Roger Penske's mood after Stefan Johanssan bumping Emerson Fittipaldi in a underfunded Bettenhausen entry. That was drama. To top it off, Stefan and Emerson were not native born Amercians. CART fans followed Champ Cars because it required Driver talent, Engineering talent and business smarts, all three were needed to win in CART. IRL doesn't require all three, just a big pocketbook or Japense Yen, the dumbed down IRL package requires only mid-level talent, and engineering requirements?, rev limited motors and generic chassis do not require top level engineering talent. There is more cutting edge technology on display this May at Formula SAE competition at the Silver dome parking lot in Detroit. No, I don't buy into the need for Amercian Drivers as the magic bullet to raise open wheel racing in this country.

[RichK]

Jag, I don't think there is anything wrong with "wrapping oneself in the American flag"......look at the GP in Barcelona yesterday: over 100,000 people showed up dressed in a hideous shade of blue to celebrate their "hometown boy" Alonso.

As long as the drivers kick ass (Ziggy's point) and are introduced to the American public through the American feeder system (Wussy's, er, SeanO's point), then I'll cheer for the Americans, just like in the Olympics.

[Lizzerd]

Good post, Madmaxfan2.


Imagine Roger Penske's mood after Stefan Johanssan bumping Emerson Fittipaldi in a underfunded Bettenhausen entry. That was drama.

The irony here is that Stefan qualified a year old Penske chassis.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Good post, Madmaxfan2.



The irony here is that Stefan qualified a year old Penske chassis.

Actually, I thought he ditched the '94 Penske too, for a year old Reynard.

[cart7]

:eek: Thought I'd accidently stumbled onto a thread at TF. :laugh:

[Madmaxfan2]

Actually, I thought he ditched the '94 Penske too, for a year old Reynard.

The ironic thing is Bettenhausen had a year old Reynard, Penske had one too and could not find the speed Bettenhausen did. Roger ended up with a year old Lola and could not make it work either. In that year, the 96 Penske, the 95 Reynard and 95 Lola that Roger tried he could not make the show. It should be noted that Emerson and Al jr. could not drive 110% either, a talent needed for Bump Day qualifying. I could start a whole thread on this one.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I could start a whole thread on this one.

No thanks, its too depressing to think about the Indy 500 this time of year.

[racer2c]

Why is it that American, modern day Champ Car fans, myself included, find it so difficult to embrace American drivers? Why is it so taboo to say Champ Car would benefit with more American drivers? Why is it a sin to say that the feeder system poorly nurtures American formula drivers? Instead we take the high road, the elitist attitude of "I want the best of the best". Sorry folks, I've been around racing long enough to know better than that. Fans of Montoya traveled from Columbia to attend CART races in support of their man. The Mexican fans wrap themselves in Mexican flags in a show of support for their national drivers. But yet the Americans play down the support of their drivers. This wasn't always the case.
I'm thrilled that we have new American hot shoes in Champ Car this year along with a returning CART Champion in Jimmy. The fact that drivers from different countries compete in Champ Car makes the American drivers all that much more special and I myself have never given them the props they deserve. Well, that's changing this year.
I have an office in my house adorned with every piece of Senna collectible that I could get my hands on since 1988. I'm making room now for some home boys.

The misinterpretation stems from the original IRL model of forgoing the best, to make room for Americans. That is not what I've been writing about. That is not what this is about.

Americans in an American series is a legitimate issue. Every new CEO that CART/Champ Car has had since Craig fielded questions from the media on this issue. Why? Well duh.

As predicted, I explain that it is my opinion that for Champ Car popularity to grow, the product will need to become something that Americans can subscribe to and get the bogus "name game" argument.

Champ Car already has me. It already has you. It doesn't have the guy or gal flipping channels on a Sunday afternoon who might watch a NASCAR race, or stop and check out high flying motocross bikes and would be enthralled with a high tech, exotic series like Champ Car. Why? Once again, because Middle America needs a connection in order to become hooked. Champ Car used to have this. This is what you people are forgetting.
How popular do you want Champ Car to become is the question. I'm perfectly content with the way it is. I've never been the guy saying "Champ Car needs to do X, Y and Z in order to compete with NASCAR". So, no more TV rating threads. No more threads on attendance. It is what it is. But, when the discussion turns to "what will it take for Champ Car to become mainstream, or at least somewhat mainstream (remember when CNN would show the winner on their ticker? Now all they show are the NASCAR results)" you can not ignore the American driver connection. You can not.

I apologize for hi-jacking your thread Jag…just random thoughts from a long time fan.

[Jag_Warrior]

No, don't worry about it. You made the point that I was struggling to make.

Champ Car already has me. It already has you. It doesn't have the guy or gal flipping channels on a Sunday afternoon who might watch a NASCAR race, or stop and check out high flying motocross bikes and would be enthralled with a high tech, exotic series like Champ Car. Why? Once again, because Middle America needs a connection in order to become hooked. Champ Car used to have this. This is what you people are forgetting.

I'm full of allergy dope. I'm not sure what I said, but what you said is what I meant. :confused: I mean... forget it. What racer2c said! :thumbup:

[Lizzerd]

The ironic thing is Bettenhausen had a year old Reynard, Penske had one too and could not find the speed Bettenhausen did. Roger ended up with a year old Lola and could not make it work either. In that year, the 96 Penske, the 95 Reynard and 95 Lola that Roger tried he could not make the show. It should be noted that Emerson and Al jr. could not drive 110% either, a talent needed for Bump Day qualifying. I could start a whole thread on this one.


Oops... (http://www.indy500.com/stats/grids.php?raceyear=1995) you are right... I was sure it was a '94 Penske. Anyway, back in those days I always bought a bronze badge (for garage area access). We took a stroll through there after 6PM, and the Penske garages already had their signs above the now closed doors taken down. Stefan was being interviewed by local news right in front of them.

[pchall]

The ironic thing is Bettenhausen had a year old Reynard, Penske had one too and could not find the speed Bettenhausen did. Roger ended up with a year old Lola and could not make it work either. In that year, the 96 Penske, the 95 Reynard and 95 Lola that Roger tried he could not make the show. It should be noted that Emerson and Al jr. could not drive 110% either, a talent needed for Bump Day qualifying. I could start a whole thread on this one.


Wow. Old Pimpske snookered himself trying to run a 96 PC in the 1995 500? :shakehead:

[Madmaxfan2]

Wow. Old Pimpske snookered himself trying to run a 96 PC in the 1995 500? :shakehead:
You have me there, it was a PC95. It was a piece of crap car that could not handle. The beginning of the long Penske "funk" period. A healthy competive series that Tony was compelled to fix caught ole RP on the short end of the Indy Car gene pool that year. RP had the lowest HP engine ( Mercedes) with the inferior tire (Goodyear) and the poor handling chassis (Penske). 33 was not just a number then. RP owned almost the entire "supply" chain of his entries and it turned out to be the uncompetetive disadvantage.

[rabbit]

Great posts r2c. :thumbup: