Monterrey

[Wheel-Nut]

Any chance of Fernandez showing up and racing?

[cart7]

He still has cars and engines. He's already qualified at Indy. I guess he could though I'm not sure what the reception would be like for him.

[SurfaceUnits]

He still has cars and engines. He's already qualified at Indy. I guess he could though I'm not sure what the reception would be like for him.He would only have a fonda engine, the Cosworths belong to OWRS.

[Andrew Longman]

He would only have a fonda engine, the Cosworths belong to OWRS.

Interesting point. Would OWRS give him an engine? What are the legal requirements for getting one I wonder. Could he sue to get one? OTOH, given that he would certainly add to the gate for the event the arguement could be made to give him one.

[Wheel-Nut]

I would guess that OWRS would lease him an engine or two for the race. Why not, they own 93 of them.

[MAXAR RE]

I thought someone said they recently spied his Lola in the Honda museum in Japan. Was I smoking crack re: that? :confused: I could picture him trying it though since he is already qualified for the 497.5, but the fans would probably not be too accepting of him.

[RobGuru]

Withdraw the EARL entries, then we'll consider it.

Till then, no dice.

[SurfaceUnits]

PG: Yo Adrian, you need a Cosworth for the weekend. Have I got a deal for you!!! :)

[mueber]

I would guess that OWRS would lease him an engine or two for the race. Why not, they own 93 of them.

That would be great for his fans in Mexico, and this is supposed to be about the fans. If Adrian wants to do it, do it.

[jonovision_man]

That would be great for his fans in Mexico, and this is supposed to be about the fans. If Adrian wants to do it, do it.

Agreed, it would be big of CART to let him drive if he wants, and good for the Mexican fans. Besides, the series is seriously lacking villians, since Penske left. ;)

jono

[skidmarks]

Could you lease an engine on a per race basis? I would think they could discount the engine lease minus Long Beach and allow the slimey fu@k to pay for the rest of the year if he wants an engine.

[Megger]

I say no way!!! He left for the EARL at such a critical time for OWR. Screw him. He can stay on the ovals as far as Im concerned. :thumdown:

[TravelGal]

Sort of comical when you think of all the ride-buyers and local heros that may in the works for "one-offs" this year. How low the mighty sink to do such things. Or maybe I don't mean "sink." ;)

[Robstar]

Besides, the series is seriously lacking villians

Definately... Bring it on FAF :D

[Lizzerd]

This would be a delicate situation if the little twerp decides he wants to race.

Question for our Mexican friends: If AF is denied an engine for the weekend, what would be the reaction? Would OWRS be considered a villian by the people who are more AF fans than Champ Car fans, thereby alienating them from Champ Car in general? Or, would most people in Mexico who realize that AF screwed Champ Car in the eleventh hour say "screw you, you made your bed, now go drive in circles"?

Something to consider, I would say.

[Winston Wolfe]

I'm with Lizzerd (again)....Let him race, who cares. :rolleyes:

All of his "fans" now know what a weasel he is... CCWS would only stand a chance to look good by letting him run....

Charge him a fair price for the engine, and let him run....

As long as he doesn't take Jeemy out on Turn 1, I am okay with him racing.

Plus, he has probably already forgotten how to turn RIGHT anyway.... That kool-aid is some powerful stuff, and makes a man do strange things.... As evidenced by so many who have had a drink from the vat at 16th \ Georgetown. :gomer:

[Lizzerd]

I didn't really say to "let him race", WW. I was bringing up a what-if scenario if he is denied an engine. If it were up to me, I'd be more inclined to telling him to go #### himself, but I'm wondering if it would be a good idea to do so considering the potential ramifications.

[DjDrOmusic]

I say let him run, we all know what a rat B@$+@RD he is and how he took the YEN, let him show up, then embarrass the heck out of him by calling him up to the podium and presenting him with a special plaque marking the end of his carreer in Champcars while adding that he is completeing his carreer in a series that doesn't require the lightning reflexes or athletic ability that the Champcars demand. Afterward announce a cage match between him and PT!! ;) :D

[SurfaceUnits]

Announcement: There will be more people at the Friday Monterrey practice than there has been at FTG's playground all month. :rofl:

[Road America]

JUST SAY NO to Adrian.


"VISIT SPARTA" :rofl:

[Ankf00]

Champ Car is a bloody formula car series.

If you race with the proper formula, then you're qualified for entering the race.

Everyone was so smug when we had 4 engine manufs and 3 chassis, everyone was so smug when we had Penske, Haas, et al.

Then after Pook spewed his rhetoric "quality not quantity" was the motto :rolleyes: how quaint, being able to to claim superiority no matter the criteria, it's like they stole Mousharraf's and the ISI's playbook.

This isn't some fiefdom. This is a race series. If Adrian wants to race, and is willing to pony up the $ to obtain the formula conforming equipment, well then he has the right to qualify.

Anything less is being the same as implementing the policies of TG. And **** that. Compromising principles over some pissiness isn't the way to rise above the muck.

[Robstar]

Well said Ank... :cool:

[Dave99]

Adrian blew it. Make him earn his way back into the series if that's what he wants. No handouts. Until then let him sit up in the grandstands with Tony George! :thumdown:

[JohnHKart]

One of the pit lane reporters as he was talking to Adrian said AF had to get into the show "this weekend, because next weekend you'll be racing in Mexico." So I take it he will be in Monterrey.

John

[Wheel-Nut]

Adrian blew it. Make him earn his way back into the series if that's what he wants. No handouts. Until then let him sit up in the grandstands with Tony George! :thumdown:


No handouts. Make him pay for the engines. Let him race. OWRS should use him like a goverment mule.

[SurfaceUnits]

Ford Credit and Mastercard Mexico were looking in to running one of their drivers at Monterrey and the one off costs were around $260,000.00.

[G.]

As William said in the Dangerous Curves post, Mario is the native son?? That's news to me and probably every other mexican race fan...if anyone is the native son after AF left Champ Car is MJ, by far. And as far as Adrian now, he's been getting tons of good press in Mexico, I wouldn't be surprised to see a large contingent of Mexican fans at the 500, mexican fans support mainly their sportsmen or woman, not the sport they practice. Case in point, almost no one in the country likes golf since pretty much no mortal can practice it in Mexico, nevertheless, a young woman, Lorena Ochoa, won her first LPGA tourney this weekend and got a great response from everyone in the country.

It would be delicious to deny AF entry into the race, but it would be very poor form. OWRS should take the high road on this for the good of the series. If he pays his money, let him race.

'Course, I hope he gets the engine with 1499 miles on it... ;)

[Wheel-Nut]

Are there any photos of the haulers at the border crossing floating around the web?

[racer2c]

Champ Car is a bloody formula car series.

If you race with the proper formula, then you're qualified for entering the race.

Everyone was so smug when we had 4 engine manufs and 3 chassis, everyone was so smug when we had Penske, Haas, et al.

Then after Pook spewed his rhetoric "quality not quantity" was the motto :rolleyes: how quaint, being able to to claim superiority no matter the criteria, it's like they stole Mousharraf's and the ISI's playbook.

This isn't some fiefdom. This is a race series. If Adrian wants to race, and is willing to pony up the $ to obtain the formula conforming equipment, well then he has the right to qualify.

Anything less is being the same as implementing the policies of TG. And **** that. Compromising principles over some pissiness isn't the way to rise above the muck.

I couldn't disagree more. Adrian left Champ Car in a blatant attempt to leave Champ Car dead in the water. Where were his principles? In his back pocket, that's where.
Adios FAF.



:thumdown: :thumdown: :thumdown:

[Turn7]

Are there any photos of the haulers at the border crossing floating around the web?

If I recall, that was TXAdrianFan that had an office that overlooked the border crossing in Laredo.

Since then, he has changed his ID to Champcarshark and has moved to El Paso. If I am right, then there won't be any hauler reports this year.

[SurfaceUnits]

Here is a photo taken after the crossing :

http://www.mural.com/Galeria_de_fotos/images/306/611619.jpg

[Wheel-Nut]

Here is a photo taken after the crossing :

http://www.mural.com/Galeria_de_fotos/images/306/611619.jpg


Is that fromthis year? Do you have a link to other photos?

[SurfaceUnits]

Yes, this year

Here they are at the track:
http://gruporeforma.mural.com/Elementos/norte/Galeria_de_fotos/images/918/1835575.jpg

http://gruporeforma.mural.com/Libre/Online/Coberturas/19052004/norte/Galeria_de_fotos/images/919/1836320.jpg

Here is Lavin making new fans:
http://gruporeforma.mural.com/Libre/Online/Coberturas/18052004/norte/Galeria_de_fotos/images/919/1836005.jpg

http://gruporeforma.mural.com/Elementos/norte/Galeria_de_fotos/images/919/1836006.jpg

[rosawendel]

the entry list doesn't include fernandez....
champ car monterrey entry list (http://www.cart.com/Content/PDF/Results/2004/20040519PDFR_0001.pdf)

[Steve99]

I recall cart.com saying that Adrian was retiring.

[Chief]

Adrian doesn't have the guts to show up.

I'd love for him to show, CCWS would get HUGE press in the fishwraps and he's get his arse handed to him by fans and folks like AJ Almendinger and PT. Just as Ank said, I say "Bring it on Adrian" let's see what you got you defector....bring it you EArL gomer! :gomer:

[Ankf00]

Adrian doesn't have the guts to show up.

I'd love for him to show, CCWS would get HUGE press in the fishwraps and he's get his arse handed to him by fans and folks like AJ Almendinger and PT. Just as Ank said, I say "Bring it on Adrian" let's see what you got you defector....bring it you EArL gomer! :gomer:

ya, it's not like he's going to get a podium, this is fernandez we're talking about...
CCWS can only look good by letting it happen if he wanted to

[racer2c]

So Champ Car can become the whipping boy that money grubbing weazles use to their own advantage. The chips were down and Adrian did his part to make sure the chips stayed down.

Hey Chip, Roger, Mo, Adrian, Bobby and Mikey, come and cherry pick whatever race best suits your sponsor, Champ Car will look good if you do.
:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

[RaceGrrl]

I look at it this way... AF is a traitor. I have no respect for him for what he did. I do, however, like the idea that some of the money Honda paid him to leave ChampCar could be paid back to race in Monterrey.

I hope that he makes as fine a showing in Monterrey as he did in his first IRL race. :D

[Ankf00]

So Champ Car can become the whipping boy that money grubbing weazles use to their own advantage. The chips were down and Adrian did his part to make sure the chips stayed down.

Hey Chip, Roger, Mo, Adrian, Bobby and Mikey, come and cherry pick whatever race best suits your sponsor, Champ Car will look good if you do.
:shakehead :shakehead :shakehead

yea, and a lockout is such a classy way to go about it.

[Dr. Corkski]

25/8

[datachicane]

25/8

Bingo.
TG's political micromanagement with manipulated grids, 'approved' manufacturers, badging requirements, fast and loose tech specs, etc., etc. ad nauseum is precisely why I despise him and his product so much.

If Champcar manipulates the rules for their own political end, they're no better.
Part of offering real racing (as opposed to manufactured entertainment) means that whoever shows up with equipment that passes tech inspection gets to run, FIA willing.

[racer2c]

Join the series not the race. Champ Car is not the SCCA.

Champ Car fans bitch and moan about their own running Indy but now they want Adrian 'backmarker' Fernandez to race in Mexico? I can't wait until Roger runs Long Beach next year!

I'm going to throw up. :shakehead

[Anteater]

Hey SurfaceUnits, thanks for posting the pics. :thumbup: 2 of my friends are driving those trucks; I've been thinking about them all week.

[RaceGrrl]

Join the series not the race. Champ Car is not the SCCA.

Champ Car fans bitch and moan about their own running Indy but now they want Adrian 'backmarker' Fernandez to race in Mexico? I can't wait until Roger runs Long Beach next year!

I'm going to throw up. :shakehead

I agree with you about joining the series- if he felt that CCWS was so awful, then it's irritating as hell that he wants to come back for the Mexican races. Still, CART teams did the same thing at Indy. It was wrong then, and it's wrong now. The genie is out of the bottle and she ain't going back in any time soon.

I don't want Fernandez or Penske back, but I think that CCWS has to tread carefully here, especially since they need the Mexican audience. I don't think it's good to have one-offs in the series, but this a year of reconstruction for CART, and an extra car on the grid and $$ in the coffers is not a terrible thing at this point.

[nrc]

Exactly. People have to understand that this works on two levels now. On one level it's a sanctioning body. Pay your engine lease, pay your entry fee, show up and race. That's the way it should be, period.

On the other level it's a business owned and operated by some pretty savy businessmen. These are the guys who will be happy to take your sanction fee, your engine lease money, your sponsor hospitality money, etc. But if you're not on their team you get exactly what you're paying for and that's all. No support money, no favors, no sponsor introductions in Gerry, Kevin or Paul's suite - zilch.

In fact, you'd better keep a close eye on your own sponsors if you bring them along. These boys have sidepods to sell and unless Honda or Toyota has your sponsor locked up tight they might just take an interest in all the excitment they're seeing at the racetrack in Long Beach or Monterrey. Especially if they're still recovering from the sunburn they picked up from all the bare aluminum at their latest IRL event.

[Ed_Severson]

This is a non-issue, it seems to me. There's not even any point in Fernandez showing up this weekend.

Tecate and Telmex are the race sponsors and will have signage all over the track, so it's not really necessary for him to shown up and advertise their limited sponsorship of his team.

Quaker State evidently isn't interested in racing in Mexico, since they were the only sponsor of his to publicly announce their support for moving to the Retirement League, so there's no incentive for him to advertise for them.

And, maybe I'm nuts, but I don't see any potential impact from encouraging people to "visit Mexico" if they are either Mexican or already visiting Mexico.

The bottom line in this situation is that if Adrian Fernandez were to show up at Monterrey intending to race, he would only be doing it with the intent of benefitting one person -- Adrian Fernandez. He's already decided Champ Car racing isn't in his best interests, so if he were to show up hoping to race, Misters Forsythe, Kalkhoven, and Gentilozzi should tell him to piss up a rope and go home.

Such a decision would be a far cry from emulating the behavior of Tony George. That bastard stole an important race from the team owners. Adrian, on the other hand, chose to walk away from the races in Mexico that were supposedly so important to him.

And, as far as the benefits to Champ Car ... bull****. :) Champ Car doesn't benefit a bit one way or the other. People are going to see Jourdain, Dominguez, Lavin, and a damn good race. If you think Adrian Fernandez would cause some sort of epic increase in attendance, you're kidding yourself.

If Adrian comes knocking at Monterrey, or at Mexico City, the smart move would be to let him buy a ticket and watch from the grandstands like everyone else.

[scanman]

^^^^^ bingo... :thumbup:

[datachicane]

Victory at the cost of becoming the very thing you despise most is no victory at all.

If Champcar must stoop to the tactics of the irl in order to succeed vs. the irl, screw'em both. Of course those tactics are effective- the point is that the whole struggle would become pointless. When the irl adds road courses, what would be left to distinguish the two, besides justifiable acrimony for TG arising from precisely these sorts of tactics? Champcar and the irl would be truly interchangable, and Champcar's survival would no longer carry any particular significance. That would suck.

Anybody recall the end result of Penske and Ganassi's irl500 one-offs?
Let'em run LB or Monterrey. I'd love to see PT show Hornish the chrome horn at LB.

[racer2c]

F1 takes measures to ensure full series participation. I've never heard of F1 being compared to Tony tactics.

[datachicane]

F1 takes measures to ensure full series participation. I've never heard of F1 being compared to Tony tactics.

Yes, but CART never did. CART has a long tradition of one-offs.

Dont' forget, 25/8 was just a 'measure to ensure full series participation'.
If you're cool with this, you'd better make sure you were cool with 25/8, too.

[mueber]

Gosh, arrogance is so unbecoming.

I am in favor of writing it into the OWRS corporate charter that Penske will NEVER be permitted to field a car, ever. Beyond that, there are two sad but inescapable facts ya’ all have to accept:

1. The series is not very good. With time and hard work it will get better. We really can’t afford to turn down any qualified team. Adrian can field a qualified team. And let’s be honest, Nelson Philippe is in the series, how hard can it be?

2. It’s a business. I hate it, and I’m old enough to remember when owners fielded cars because they loved the sport, but the Pimpske model is the norm. Adrian will bring in the fans in Mexico.

OWRS should have invited him.

[Sean O'Gorman]

He is a qualified race car driver, so let him race. Its a shame that there are people here who are making politics more important than the actual on-track action.

[racer2c]

Yes, but CART never did. CART has a long tradition of one-offs.

Dont' forget, 25/8 was just a 'measure to ensure full series participation'.
If you're cool with this, you'd better make sure you were cool with 25/8, too.

I disagree completely. Again, Adrian left Champ Car at a critical juncture which, in my opinion, was an attempt to make sure Champ Car wouldn't make the car count at LB which would have been a disaster. If Adrian had left over the winter it would be a different story.

The Indy 500 is an invitational race. 25/8 went against all that Indy was. Adrian doing a run off in Mexico for his sponsor and the 25/8 comparison is ridiculous.

It's been the majority consensus that Penske and Chip not return to Champ Car. Why Adrian? Hell, at least they gave notice!

[racer2c]

Gosh, arrogance is so unbecoming.

I am in favor of writing it into the OWRS corporate charter that Penske will NEVER be permitted to field a car, ever. Beyond that, there are two sad but inescapable facts ya’ all have to accept:

1. The series is not very good. With time and hard work it will get better. We really can’t afford to turn down any qualified team. Adrian can field a qualified team. And let’s be honest, Nelson Philippe is in the series, how hard can it be?

2. It’s a business. I hate it, and I’m old enough to remember when owners fielded cars because they loved the sport, but the Pimpske model is the norm. Adrian will bring in the fans in Mexico.

OWRS should have invited him.

If you're going to throw around insults, at least have the nads to attach a name.

The series is not very good? In what way?
Can Champ Car afford to turn down teams? Of course they can. The car count is made, plus.
Adrian will bring the fans? It's my understanding the the Mexican fans now consider him a traitor. Michel and Mario will bring the fans.

[SurfaceUnits]

CCWS doesn't need Fadrian:

If you were thinking going to Monterrey, no way. All tickets sold out!!! what it means great crowds cheering the pilots.

I'm sure this race weekend we'll see a new record attendance.

This is what mexican fans are, we love Champ Car!!!

Viva Champ Car!!!!

FAF!!!!

[Sean O'Gorman]

I disagree completely. Again, Adrian left Champ Car at a critical juncture which, in my opinion, was an attempt to make sure Champ Car wouldn't make the car count at LB which would have been a disaster. If Adrian had left over the winter it would be a different story.

The Indy 500 is an invitational race. 25/8 went against all that Indy was. Adrian doing a run off in Mexico for his sponsor and the 25/8 comparison is ridiculous.

It's been the majority consensus that Penske and Chip not return to Champ Car. Why Adrian? Hell, at least they gave notice!

Keeping Adrian out and the 25/8 rule are based on the same premise, manipulating competitors to insure full season participation. When was the last time that a capable team wasn't "invited" to the Indy 500?

[Ankf00]

Keeping Adrian out and the 25/8 rule are based on the same premise, manipulating competitors to insure full season participation. When was the last time that a capable team wasn't "invited" to the Indy 500?

shup, dont let principles confuse your perception and judgement of CCWS, how dare you let being a respectable man distort your view of being a champ car fan, *gasp*

[Robstar]

Gosh, arrogance is so unbecoming.

What the... ? :saywhat:

[Ed_Severson]

"Keeping Adrian out and the 25/8 rule are based on the same premise, manipulating competitors to insure full season participation. When was the last time that a capable team wasn't "invited" to the Indy 500?"

That's a load of crap. There's no way Fernandez could participate for the entire season, whether he was to race at Monterrey or not. That possibility went out the window when he turned his back on Champ Car and the two races in Mexico that were supposed to be the two most important events to him.

Tony George created an alternate schedule and locked Champ Car teams out of the 500 unless they agreed to abandon the schedule they had already agreed to run to participate in his little circle jerk of a "championship." There's no alternate schedule here -- this was the schedule, and Adrian walked away from it.

Nobody prevented him from running Champ Car -- he chose not to. If he wants to have it both ways, the boys should tell him to **** off. He didn't have time for us. Why should we go out of our way to accommodate him?

And could someone please explain to me how Champ Car "cannot afford" to turn away Japan's newest national hero? Seems to me like things are going pretty damn well without him, and I don't expect the series to collapse if he doesn't show up to race in front of three or four hundred thousand fans to whom he gave a big middle finger when he walked away from them, and the rest of us.

[Dr. Corkski]

That's a load of crap. There's no way Fernandez could participate for the entire season, whether he was to race at Monterrey or not. That possibility went out the window when he turned his back on Champ Car and the two races in Mexico that were supposed to be the two most important events to him.No it's not. You are suggesting that OWRS should deny Fernandez participation, even providing that he funds his own adequatly prepared equpiment, only the basis that you hate him and that he cannot complete a full season in the OWRS Fantasy Racing Camp. Given that there is no rule stipulating full season participation, entries should only be denied if it is not adequatly prepared. If Fernandez wants to enter the race, bottom line is that he should not be treated any differently than other one-off entries. The minute a sport starts showing favortism it ought to be taken about as seriously as WWE.


Tony George created an alternate schedule and locked Champ Car teams out of the 500 unless they agreed to abandon the schedule they had already agreed to run to participate in his little circle jerk of a "championship." There's no alternate schedule here -- this was the schedule, and Adrian walked away from it.Not true. The first two IRL event were held when CART had off-weekends, and the US500 was not created to conflict the IRL500 until 25/8 was announced which was used to lock teams that weren't going to participate in the IRL season out of a race, which is exactly what you are advocating for OWRS to do.


Nobody prevented him from running Champ Car -- he chose not to. If he wants to have it both ways, the boys should tell him to **** off. He didn't have time for us. Why should we go out of our way to accommodate him?No one is saying OWRS should roll out the red carpet for him, just that he should be allowed to race provided he shows up with proper equipment. Heck, the OWRS principles are each running a participant that would have trouble passing the driver's license test at the DMV.


And could someone please explain to me how Champ Car "cannot afford" to turn away Japan's newest national hero? Seems to me like things are going pretty damn well without him, and I don't expect the series to collapse if he doesn't show up to race in front of three or four hundred thousand fans to whom he gave a big middle finger when he walked away from them, and the rest of us.OWRS can't afford to turn away funded cars, because it is paying just to have enough right now. If anyone wants to show up and race with proper equipment, let them.

[Insomniac]

F1 takes measures to ensure full series participation. I've never heard of F1 being compared to Tony tactics.

They have a $50M buy-in. Big difference. With that much money, you could run the entire field.

[Insomniac]

They should let anyone come crawling back whenever they want. As long as they don't let the car owners run the series in their own best interest, what does it matter? You get someone to cheer against, they came back because they couldn't stay away and the series gets some money. It's not like they're coming to cherry pick the purse. It's also not like former CART teams beating up on crappy IRL teams at Indy. We still have teams at the top and no cherry picker will get up to speed to challenge them in a weekend.

Bottom line, let him race, but don't him any favors.

[SurfaceUnits]

The engine leases are for a full season. Any one offs will be handled by teams already in. How do you know what OWRS can or can't afford? You their bookkeeper? As fans who run the Fantasy Racing Camp, we can hate anybody and exclude anybody we want. Who are you to say we can't? All 18 drivers are fully licensed to drive in their respective countries. Your xenophobia should be taken elsewhere.

[Ed_Severson]

"You are suggesting that OWRS should deny Fernandez participation, even providing that he funds his own adequatly prepared equpiment, only the basis that you hate him and that he cannot complete a full season in the OWRS Fantasy Racing Camp."

It's a falsity, Jerdge! :rolleyes:

That's not what I said. I was simply refuting the ridiculous idea that any attempt to prevent him from running would be equivalent to an attempt at making sure he competes for the entire season, which despite Sean's protestations, is not possible.

"The minute a sport starts showing favortism it ought to be taken about as seriously as WWE."

I wholeheartedly agree. No sporting organization should ever, under any circumstances, show favoritism to one competitor over another. However, every sporting organization has the right to decide who can and cannot be competitors.

Those of you who are professionals are probably familiar with the concept of codes of ethics. In some ethical codes, association with individuals of ill repute or questionable ethical character is prohibited. You could certainly make the argument that what Fernandez did was highly unethical, and if it was my racing series to run, I wouldn't want a slimeball like that within a hundred miles of any of my events. As far as I'm concerned, letting him in the gate puts a foul odor on the whole weekend, not because I dislike him, but because he clearly dislikes us.

"Not true. The first two IRL event were held when CART had off-weekends"

And it was gonna stay like that until the end of time? You been drinkin', Kool-Aid breath? :saywhat:

"OWRS can't afford to turn away funded cars, because it is paying just to have enough right now. If anyone wants to show up and race with proper equipment, let them."

I'll ask again ... please explain to me how Champ Car "cannot afford" to turn away Adrian Fernandez. If he races, do they suddenly get to stop paying for somebody else's drive? Does the bank account magically fill with Pesos and Yen? What, precisely, is the mechanism that makes Adrian Fernandez's appearance at one ****in' race the solution to the financial woes of our little universe?

And, for good measure, I'll reiterate what I said in my first post ... none of this matters. He's got no reason to show up except to try and pump up his tarnished image, and I'm guessing he doesn't have the balls for that at his age. If he had, he never would have left to begin with.

[Ed_Severson]

Well, I'll be damned ... lookie what I found in the rulebook!

"2.8 CONDUCT
Persons whose appearance, conduct, associations or affiliations, on or off the track, are deemed not conducive to the best interest of this sport or exhibit conduct which is inappropriate, offensive, abrasive or in bad taste, and persons who have been convicted for criminal activity may be denied membership or license or may be excluded or suspended from Champ Car at the discretion of the Vice President of Operations or the Director of Competition."

I rest my case.

[Ankf00]

Well, I'll be damned ... lookie what I found in the rulebook!

"2.8 CONDUCT
Persons whose appearance, conduct, associations or affiliations, on or off the track, are deemed not conducive to the best interest of this sport or exhibit conduct which is inappropriate, offensive, abrasive or in bad taste, and persons who have been convicted for criminal activity may be denied membership or license or may be excluded or suspended from Champ Car at the discretion of the Vice President of Operations or the Director of Competition."

I rest my case.

well aside from the fact that i'm trying to convince my goody lil goody lil cuzins to ignore my cousin's graduation to show up at mine, poor you, showing up to show that show that a race series can live on past it's former ownesr, *gasp* not that!!!!!!!!! this is a race series, not a country club, the ppl who are qualified can go tee off.

[Dr. Corkski]

It's good to see my old nemesis from 7G back. ;) At least you don't go around calling me a xenophobe like some other doofus trying to brown nose his way to a little model car. :laugh:


That's not what I said. I was simply refuting the ridiculous idea that any attempt to prevent him from running would be equivalent to an attempt at making sure he competes for the entire season, which despite Sean's protestations, is not possible.The problem I see with your argument is that Fernandez already had an IRL team last year, but because he was able run the full season last year, you didn't have a problem with him racing in the CCWS (or at least I don't recall you saying so). You just ended up implying that because he didn't want to compete in the CCWS this year, he should be excluded from participating any race, even if he wants to fund it himself. Perhaps it's just the way you and I interpret his departure, but it's not that big of a deal to me because it won't be up to either of us if he is allowed in or not.

As for the conduct rule, if it's interpreted the same way that you did, then Derrick Walker should have been thrown out of CART long ago.


I wholeheartedly agree. No sporting organization should ever, under any circumstances, show favoritism to one competitor over another. However, every sporting organization has the right to decide who can and cannot be competitors.

Those of you who are professionals are probably familiar with the concept of codes of ethics. In some ethical codes, association with individuals of ill repute or questionable ethical character is prohibited. You could certainly make the argument that what Fernandez did was highly unethical, and if it was my racing series to run, I wouldn't want a slimeball like that within a hundred miles of any of my events. As far as I'm concerned, letting him in the gate puts a foul odor on the whole weekend, not because I dislike him, but because he clearly dislikes us.What Fernandez did was no more unethical than say, an OWRS principle dropping a contracted driver and race winner for a complete wanker, that they were both business decisions (not implying that I agree with what both did, because I don't) that were detrimental to the sport itself, just that one was less popular than the other. I don't recall Fernandez saying he clearly disliked the fans, so as far as I know you are putting words in his mouth. If Fernandez appearing on the race track would prove detrimental to the series, then I can certainly understand why OWRS should not let him in, but there should not happen as the only way he will be allowed to return is if he returns under OWRS' conditions.


And it was gonna stay like that until the end of time? You been drinkin', Kool-Aid breath? :saywhat:No, but that's irrelevant. Your post suggested that CART teams could not run the Indy 500 because "Tony George created an alternate schedule and locked Champ Car teams out of the 500 unless they agreed to abandon the schedule they had already agreed to run to participate in his little circle jerk of a "championship." My point is that CART teams could have circle-jerked if they needed to fulfill the 25/8, but chose not to because it would be blatantly unfair to lock someone out of a race solely because of politics.


I'll ask again ... please explain to me how Champ Car "cannot afford" to turn away Adrian Fernandez. If he races, do they suddenly get to stop paying for somebody else's drive? Does the bank account magically fill with Pesos and Yen? What, precisely, is the mechanism that makes Adrian Fernandez's appearance at one ****in' race the solution to the financial woes of our little universe?Let's say that Fernandez does indeed do a one-off, and sees all the fans and realizes that he made a mistake and wants to come back without needing handouts. The chances of that happening might be slim, but if he does have a change of heart and come back with a funded effort, that could mean that Kalkhoven would not have to put as much money in to funding that 18th car, or maybe Carpentier could have more than 4 crew members work on the third rate team that Forsythe dumped him in.


And, for good measure, I'll reiterate what I said in my first post ... none of this matters. He's got no reason to show up except to try and pump up his tarnished image, and I'm guessing he doesn't have the balls for that at his age. If he had, he never would have left to begin with.Whatever his motivation is, as long as it isn't detrimental to OWRS, I see no reason why they shouldn't let him race.

Again, it is almost as if people are equating allowing Fernandez to compete under OWRS' terms to him running the series. No one has yet to show that having Fernandez on the track would be deterimental to the racing. Nobody is forcing you to cheer for him either.

[Ed_Severson]

LOL ... Ank, were you drunk when you wrote that? ;)

"The problem I see with your argument is that Fernandez already had an IRL team last year, but because he was able run the full season last year, you didn't have a problem with him racing in the CCWS."

Wrong. I have a problem with it because he was able to run Champ Car this year, and chose to bail out on us at the worst possible time.

"As for the conduct rule, if it's interpreted the same way that you did, then Derrick Walker should have been thrown out of CART long ago."

Wrong again. Walker didn't pull a firm entry out from under us a month before the first race. Adrian had five months to make the switch -- he waited until after he had shown up at the season preview to commit himself to the series. That is certainly conduct detrimental to the sport that goes far beyond anything Derrick Walker ever did.

"What Fernandez did was no more unethical than say, an OWRS principle dropping a contracted driver and race winner for a complete wanker"

Oh boy, here we go again with that argument. :rolleyes: Here's something for you to think about. This complaint depends on the idea that signing Rodolfo Lavin, Roberto Gonzalez, or Nelson Philippe is somehow a sin because those drivers brought money with them. Now, I'd like you to answer a question for me. Given the list of the following six drivers, which would be your first three choices?

Rodolfo Lavin
Roberto Gonzalez
Nelson Philippe
Justin Wilson
Mario Haberfeld
Oriol Servia

Isn't it funny that the three guys at the bottom of the list are more appealing to pretty much everybody here, and those are the drivers that ended up in seats at Mi-Jack, Walker, and Coyne which certain people :saywhat: have cried about because those seats were supposed to have been filled by the three guys at the top of the list? Had it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason the three princpals signed Lavin, Gonzalez, and Philippe was to help them better subsidize the smaller teams and give those teams a legitimate shot at real results by having quality drivers instead of monied drivers? And, for that matter, had it occurred to you that having a funded driver would allow an established team like Forsythe to run a third car for Carpentier more easily than somebody else?

"My point is that CART teams could have circle-jerked if they needed to fulfill the 25/8"

For 1996, sure. But you and I both know that the two schedules were going to conflict for 1997 and beyond, whether the CART teams ran both seasons or not. It's a little disingenuous of you to suggest that 25/8 was not an attempt at coercing the team owners to switch series because a three-race schedule didn't conflict with any CART race weekends.

"Let's say that Fernandez does indeed do a one-off, and sees all the fans and realizes that he made a mistake and wants to come back without needing handouts."

Yeah, right. :laugh:

"No one has yet to show that having Fernandez on the track would be deterimental to the racing."

Likewise, nobody has shown that there would be any benefit to anybody besides Adrian Fernandez if they let him in.

[racer2c]

Ok, I've had a change of heart. A good nights sleep made me realize what Champ Car needs is the IRL teams. Please, please, please, please come back to our suffering little series Mr. Penske and Mr. Ganassi. We forgive you for leaving us a week before Long Beach Mr. Fernandez. Please come back and save our series!! Please, for the love all things racing, please come back!!

Now who's giving out model cars. I want a blue one.

[nrc]

Ok, I've had a change of heart. A good nights sleep made me realize what Champ Car needs is the IRL teams. Please, please, please, please come back to our suffering little series Mr. Penske and Mr. Ganassi.

There's a difference between saying that Champ car [i]needs[\i] IRL teams and saying that Champ car should be open to anyone who wants to compete.

[mueber]

Had a field of 40 late models at our local half mile Sunday, it doesn't mean it is the big leagues.

Anyone who wants to compete in OWRS, for a race or a season, is welcome, except Penske. ;)

[JT265]

"My point is that CART teams could have circle-jerked if they needed to fulfill the 25/8"

If your point is that they could have run their old outdated (and unsafe) chassis in ToeKnee's leaque, I'll agree, except for one point.

Considering that most teamowners are whores, and that Gulfstream's don't run for free, and it's gonna cost an additional 3-350 large for a weekend (600 of your Pimpski), who's covering that charge?

Oh, and I'll take a blue one too. ;)

[JT265]

I just realized something.

Argueing the merits of who is and isn't welcome in CCWS brings me to the word.

deserving

As in, that driver is a deserving driver.

Wow, we are morphing into Cr^ckforum here.


:D

[racer2c]

Had a field of 40 late models at our local half mile Sunday, it doesn't mean it is the big leagues.

Anyone who wants to compete in OWRS, for a race or a season, is welcome, except Penske. ;)

Ok. I'll subscribe to a mandate. But FAF has to sit out this year. :)

[Wheel-Nut]

Any chance of Fernandez showing up and racing?


WOW, this thread kind of went askew! I was just wondering if there was any chance he would show up.

[Dr. Corkski]

Oh boy, here we go again with that argument. :rolleyes: Here's something for you to think about. This complaint depends on the idea that signing Rodolfo Lavin, Roberto Gonzalez, or Nelson Philippe is somehow a sin because those drivers brought money with them.Not so. The problem with them is that they are wasting top seats, which makes the series less competitive. The unethical part is that these owners took on less qualified drivers because of only one factor, which was the almighty Pesos and Francs (but I guess that's OK as long as it's not the Yen).


Now, I'd like you to answer a question for me. Given the list of the following six drivers, which would be your first three choices?

Rodolfo Lavin
Roberto Gonzalez
Nelson Philippe
Justin Wilson
Mario Haberfeld
Oriol Servia

Isn't it funny that the three guys at the bottom of the list are more appealing to pretty much everybody here, and those are the drivers that ended up in seats at Mi-Jack, Walker, and Coyne which certain people :saywhat: have cried about because those seats were supposed to have been filled by the three guys at the top of the list? Had it occurred to any of you that maybe the reason the three princpals signed Lavin, Gonzalez, and Philippe was to help them better subsidize the smaller teams and give those teams a legitimate shot at real results by having quality drivers instead of monied drivers? And, for that matter, had it occurred to you that having a funded driver would allow an established team like Forsythe to run a third car for Carpentier more easily than somebody else?So then why don't the OWRS principles just hire the bottom 3 on that list then? Certain putting those 3 in their far better funded cars would make the show better, wouldn't it? I much rather see Justin Wilson battling Tracy for the lead in a Rocketsports car, rather than Justin Wilson running in 6th place by himself far adrift of the leaders and lapping Fabio's Rocketsports car for the #^&%#$& time. I don't believe for a second that Jesus Forsythe would have had to drop Carpentier's car had Slodolfo's briefcase of Corona Pesos not came along.


For 1996, sure. But you and I both know that the two schedules were going to conflict for 1997 and beyond, whether the CART teams ran both seasons or not. It's a little disingenuous of you to suggest that 25/8 was not an attempt at coercing the team owners to switch series because a three-race schedule didn't conflict with any CART race weekends.Again you are putting words into my mouth. All I said was team owners didn't have to complete abandon CART if they really wanted to go to Indy that year. And you know if they did they would have put so many of the weekend warriors from the 96 IRL500 out of business that 97 would have been far tougher for them.


Likewise, nobody has shown that there would be any benefit to anybody besides Adrian Fernandez if they let him in.That would only matter if it was suggested that OWRS invite him back, but that isn't the case here.

[mueber]

I just realized something.

Argueing the merits of who is and isn't welcome in CCWS brings me to the word.

deserving

As in, that driver is a deserving driver.

Wow, we are morphing into Cr^ckforum here.


:D

I didn't realize it, but you're right. I wonder what the CCWS equivalent of the Kool-Aid is, Merlot?