Kevin Kalkoven speaks . . . .

[Wheel-Nut]

So what do you make of this? SPEEDTV (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/11215/)

It sounds to me that tracks that are far away from metropolitan cities won't be getting a race.

[nrc]

"...just having a race for the sake of having a race doesn't interest me, and it doesn't do anything for anybody."

:shakehead

I'm grateful to JK&P for saving Champcar. But if having a race just for the sake of having a race doesn't draw a crowd then it's not really a sport, it's a carnival side show. I guess that's where open wheel racing in a America stands these days, but it's sad.

[KLang]

:shakehead

I'm grateful to JK&P for saving Champcar. But if having a race just for the sake of having a race doesn't draw a crowd then it's not really a sport, it's a carnival side show. I guess that's where open wheel racing in a America stands these days, but it's sad.

I believe what he means is that it has to make sense financialy.

[racer2c]

If a Champ Car roars at Mid Ohio, does anyone hear it?

CCWS will need to leverage the cost of more flight races with the health of the teams. Can the smaller/newer teams afford to fly all over the globe? Will CCWS provide travel subsidizing? If they do multiple races per flight, such as a three week stint in Europe, they risk the loss of US media and US fan interest. Is that important if they pick up other nations interest? Probably not.
CCWS should be in Brazil. One in Brazil and one in Argentina would be cool. Then they could do two in Asia. Two in Europe.

[cart7]

At what point does the line blur between the race and the event?? It seems KK is talking about creating events that have a race element to them. I suppose that could sustain the series in the short run but you're not going to build a fanbase if the race becomes just a part of the overall event. AND if this scenario does work, would there ever be a point where it could ever go back to something resembling what it once was : A race series of diversity built on a strong fanbase at attractive and challenging race tracks of all types. I fear it won't.

[RaceGrrl]

It's interesting that the Oreovicz article at ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1807405) had a more positive spin than Speed's coverage did, and it contained the exact same quote.

[JLMannin]

Kalkoven says:


We can no longer in the motor racing world just have races, unless we've got promoters and cities and government organizations prepared to back these events and turn them into what we have here in Monterrey, just having a race for the sake of having a race doesn't interest me, and it doesn't do anything for anybody.

Sounds to me like he is saying that Champcar will no longer to the self-promoted races. If Mid-Ohio wants a race, they have to act like thay actually want it by exerting the effort (and money) to promote the event. In turn, it is Champcars responsibility to have a sanctioning acreement in place that rewards the track ownership for putting forth the effort to promote the event. A natural consequence of such an agreement would be money to both parties.

Is much as I may like the event, if Mid-Ohio insists on a cash rent by OWRS with OWRS doing self promotion, it is time to walk away.

[Insomniac]

If a Champ Car roars at Mid Ohio, does anyone hear it?

CCWS will need to leverage the cost of more flight races with the health of the teams. Can the smaller/newer teams afford to fly all over the globe? Will CCWS provide travel subsidizing? If they do multiple races per flight, such as a three week stint in Europe, they risk the loss of US media and US fan interest. Is that important if they pick up other nations interest? Probably not.
CCWS should be in Brazil. One in Brazil and one in Argentina would be cool. Then they could do two in Asia. Two in Europe.

I'm sure part of the sanctioning fee can be used to help get teams where they need to be. These guys overseas are willing to pay them to come there. That's the way it used to be here.

[Insomniac]

At what point does the line blur between the race and the event?? It seems KK is talking about creating events that have a race element to them. I suppose that could sustain the series in the short run but you're not going to build a fanbase if the race becomes just a part of the overall event. AND if this scenario does work, would there ever be a point where it could ever go back to something resembling what it once was : A race series of diversity built on a strong fanbase at attractive and challenging race tracks of all types. I fear it won't.

The reality is, races are not here to entertain us. They're here to make money. If the promoter can't make money, they aren't going to pay OWRS to have a race. OWRS is forced to co-promote when things are bad to help take some of the burden of the loss. They need people in those seats at the races. If the race isn't enough, they will either need to leave or find a way to bring more people in another way. This is what they are trying to do. Bring more people in and the hope is they'll enjoy the race. OW (and CART) were big at one time here. I don't think the culture has changed so much that now no one cares. Dads stopped bringing their kids at some point and now we have a small handful left. They need to start getting people there to get more interest and fans for the series.

[Insomniac]

I'm sure the goal is to build up that support so the event can stand on its own with just the race. But if they need to bring in other amusement to Mid-Ohio or Elkhart Lake and turn it into a carnival atmosphere, would you rather have that or more money down the tubes and no racing at all? I think they need to get people there to see the show. Eventually, that will be why they comeback and they can return to the type of weekend most of us are accustomed.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If a Champ Car roars at Mid Ohio, does anyone hear it?

If a race on a street course sucks, does anyone bother to watch it?

[Steve99]

It's interesting that the Oreovicz article at ESPN.com (http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1807405) had a more positive spin than Speed's coverage did, and it contained the exact same quote.

Not surprising given SPEED's editorial slant lately.

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

This indicates that many of the things that made CART unique are going by the wayside. A combination of ovals, temp street courses, superspeedways, and permanent raod courses.

The permanent Road Courses have a place in OWRS. Can they be made into the "carnival atmosphere" that temporary street circuits can? Is it in the best interest of the series for them to be made into that?

Only time will tell.

[pchall]

The permanent Road Courses have a place in OWRS. Can they be made into the "carnival atmosphere" that temporary street circuits can? Is it in the best interest of the series for them to be made into that?



I's go to a three day carnival at M-O. I posted stuff in a thread last year about the lack of family friendly activities at M-O and suggested a lot of stuff from a water park, karting for kids and adults, to evening concerts. The champcar purists said "no way". I guess all they want to do with the rest of the weekend is stand around an drink at the campfire.

[mueber]

It's all good news. As much as I'm gonna miss Mid-ohio this year and Road America next year, Kalkoven speaks like a man who faces reality squarely and does what has to be done. At this point, the top priorities are to stablize the series and make some money. When we are successful, we can talk about art for art's sake.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I's go to a three day carnival at M-O. I posted stuff in a thread last year about the lack of family friendly activities at M-O and suggested a lot of stuff from a water park, karting for kids and adults, to evening concerts. The champcar purists said "no way". I guess all they want to do with the rest of the weekend is stand around an drink at the campfire.

Water park, concerts, etc. do nothing to increase the fan's interest in the on-track product, which is what the sport needs for survival; in fact, I'd say it does the opposite, since the sideshow distracts the fan from the main event.

Here is a good example of how to do things. The Japan GT Championship is coming to Fontana this December, and they have a huge number of activities planned for the weekend that will probably blow away anything that Champ Car, ALMS, Grand-Am, or SCCA will have to offer this year.

From http://www.jgtcusa.net:


GT Live is designed like a theme park. But instead of fish or stuffed animals, we’re all about cars. That means GT Live is full of attractions. Some run all the time, like Pirates of the Carribean at Disneyland, and some are on a schedule, like Shamu at Sea World. The point is that for two days in December we will create a place you will call heaven. You’ll be able to see the hottest cars and girls, watch some of the best racing in the world, get a ride with a JGTC driver, race your own car in an autocross, display your car, dance, and shop. You name it, we’ll have it for you. Here is a list of what you can expect:

JGTC Main Event

300km+ race with two mandatory pit stops featuring 25 top teams from Japan, as well as a few US entries. Scheduled start time is 4:30pm, with an anticipated race duration of 2 1/2 to 3 hours. That gives you plenty of time to walk around the track, watch from different vantage points and get in at least one pit stop. And you’ll be able to watch the lighting change as the sun goes down. That means lots of flames coming out of exhaust pipes on downshifts. The race will look and sound awesome. Don’t worry about it being dark because California Speedway just put in a new lighting system.

JGTC Against the World - Time Attack

Team time attack competition that pits a team consisting of the top 3 GT 500 and GT 300 finishers against six international cars/teams. The time attack will consist of two sessions, with the aggregate time from the two teams determining the final score. The team with the lowest score wins and gets to savor the thrill of victory.

JGTC Demo Runs

A JGTC driver will give you hot laps around the track. All you need to do is wear a helmet and hang on. You’ll be riding in a production car provided by a car manufacturer and get to experience driving like never before. Participation in the demo runs will be free, but capacity is limited and at the discretion of the manufacturers. In other words, there’ll most likely be some kind of contest for you to enter in order to get a ride. We’ll reserve a small quantity of seats for a lottery, which is open to anyone. In total there will be 7 JGTC Demo Run sessions spread out over the course of Sunday.

JGTC Pit Walk

Since the JGTC teams will be extremely busy with qualifying and race preparations on Saturday, there will be little opportunity to see the cars up close or photograph them. So on Sunday the cars will be on display all the time. You will also have the opportunity to talk to the drivers directly and get their autograph, or have your picture taken with the race queens from Japan.

Drifting Demonstration

Of course GT Live would not be complete without a good dose of drifting. We’ll be putting together a demonstration that promises to elevate the fun factor to a new level. First, we will run laps, not a point-to-point course like most other events. Second, we will run two pairs of two cars on track at the same time. Third, our track has tight turns, sweepers and straights, providing the best possible stage for drifting. That means you get to see more cars going sideways, creating more smoke than ever before.

Manufacturer Autocross

After seeing all the action on the track we figure you’ll get the itch to do some driving of your own. So all weekend you’ll be able to get into a production car and do timed laps around a temporary track. You can drive as much as you want and choose between several manufacturers. Since the laps are timed and the cars will be equal this will be a good time to find if you really are faster than your friends. We’ll have professionals on hand to give you tips on how to squeeze out a better time. If you need a break you can hang in one of the manufacturer lounges.

Autocross

Driving someone else’s ride is one thing, but wouldn’t you like to see how you and your car stack up against the rest? We thought so. That is why you can bring your ride and do laps on our autocross course. There’ll be a nominal charge per lap and you can do as many laps as you like until we sell out. The Autocross will have a driver’s lounge for you to relax in and bum advice off professionals. You also receive your own staging area. Registration for the autocross will start in August.

Car Show

If you think you’ve seen everything there is to see in terms of car shows, think again. The GT Live car show will be staged inside the garage area, right next to the race cars and teams! You cannot get a better seat in the house. We’ll have a special category for best GT500 and GT300 look-alike, as well as a race queen look-alike contest. The garage area will be packed with hot cars and hot chics. Slots are limited to about 300 cars and registration starts in August.

Fan Lap

Ever wonder what it is like to drive around California Speedway in your car? Now you can find out by participating in our Fan Lap. You and a thousand of your best friends will do a lap around the Auto Competition Course, the same configuration used by the JGTC race. Speeds will be limited so this is more an hour-long party on wheels. Registration opens in August.

Car Club Festival

A lot of you belong to a club or group so we thought we’d give you the opportunity to represent at GT Live. Starting in June we’ll be offering car club packages that include a weekend pass, preferred parking, a dedicated lounge in the parking area and participation in the VIP fan lap, which is exclusive to car clubs.

Vendor Midway

We’re guessing that after about a half day of watching race cars and driving, you’ll start getting plenty of ideas of things to modify on your own ride. After all, it is the weekend before Christmas and you’ll want to do something for yourself, or maybe a loved one. Christmas shopping may not be the right word, but if it has to do with cars you’ll probably be able to buy it in the vendor display area.

Audio Challenge

GT Live will feature an audio challenge right next to the main garage area. Details for this attraction will be announced in August.

Dyno Challenge

OK, so you got whooped by your friends in the Autocross but now you can get your revenge by showing them you have the most under the hood. We will be able to put cars side-by-side on mobile dynos for a head to head shown-down. Pre-registration is required and details will be announced in August.

Main Stage & Lounges

At some point during the course of any event, you just feel like sitting down and taking a break. We hear ya. All across GT Live will be lounges that offer shelter, a place to sit, as well as free drinks, food and music. Our main stage will feature DJs throughout the weekend.

While I don't agree with all of the things they are offering (specifically the audio competition, and to a lesser extent, drifting), this is something that Champ Car needs to look at. Notice how they don't have to resort to going to a street course, in fact, they are racing at a venue owned by the EVIL ISC.

[cart7]

What was wrong with the old traveling fan fest that used to follow Cart around?
Most of it was family or kid oriented with a racing theme to much of the stuff. I'm not against the whole festival type deal, I'm more worried that it becomes more about that and turning the profit first, rather than building the series into a stand alone product that would have less reliance on the festival deal to begin with.

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

Exactly. I look at Road America. There is the Children's area with games, freebies, etc. There is the world class GoKart track inside of the main circuit, which often has events running during race weekends. There is the wonderful food at the vendor stands. There are concerts and side highlights. If one is into Night Life, there is plenty going on at nearby Elkhart Lake or Sheboygan.

There are large crowds of people at Road America, for all race weekend days. Young children can be in the paddock area.

It definaately offers the race fans something that cannot be achieved in a city. The sights, the sounds, the atmosphere of a race track nestled in the woods.

Nothing against races in other countries, but is this what the "typical" American fan really wants? Does OWRS want to become a sport for rich people like F-1? Do they want to cater to those with money and leave the "family fan" on the side of the track? Do they want to outprice themselves for the poeple who have supported them through thick and thin?

Just some thoughts.

[pchall]

Exactly. I look at Road America. There is the Children's area with games, freebies, etc. There is the world class GoKart track inside of the main circuit, which often has events running during race weekends. There is the wonderful food at the vendor stands. There are concerts and side highlights. If one is into Night Life, there is plenty going on at nearby Elkhart Lake or Sheboygan.


I was thinking of RA when I first mused about a more family friendly weekend at M-O. If you take kids to a long hot weekend at a road course there really has to be more for them to do besided follow dad along from corner to corner watching the cars.

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

Exactly. And, todays kids are the future adult fans of the sport!

[Lizzerd]

Exactly. I look at Road America. There is the Children's area with games, freebies, etc. There is the world class GoKart track inside of the main circuit, which often has events running during race weekends. There is the wonderful food at the vendor stands. There are concerts and side highlights. If one is into Night Life, there is plenty going on at nearby Elkhart Lake or Sheboygan.

There are large crowds of people at Road America, for all race weekend days. Young children can be in the paddock area.

It definaately offers the race fans something that cannot be achieved in a city. The sights, the sounds, the atmosphere of a race track nestled in the woods.

Nothing against races in other countries, but is this what the "typical" American fan really wants? Does OWRS want to become a sport for rich people like F-1? Do they want to cater to those with money and leave the "family fan" on the side of the track? Do they want to outprice themselves for the poeple who have supported them through thick and thin?

Just some thoughts.


"Mom", you said it all right there. Nothing more to see here, folks, move on...

M-O is gone, now we face the potential loss of RA. My two favorite tracks to attend. Unfortunately, I like the tracks that I can camp at. I really miss MIS, too.

If the future of the series depends on the urban environs for its survival, then so be it. I'll be attending fewer races and hopefully will have a ratings handbook in on my coffee table on race weekend.

[racer2c]

If a race on a street course sucks, does anyone bother to watch it?

Like Long Beach and Surfers?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Like Long Beach and Surfers?

Like Denver or Miami?

[devilmaster]

I posted this in another thread a while ago.....

It fits into this conversation..... its basically what I see is the future of ChampCar.


I don't believe they are contingency plans against TG, but are the cornerstone of making CCWS viable again.

Unfortunately for the North American fan base, the way to make guaranteed money is to go to some of these new places. Australia is a great example. The Aussie government, said at the courthouse that the race generates 50 to 60 million in direct and indirect revenue for the area. Compare that with 20 or so million the government probably had to underwrite.

Very simply, if you don't have tobacco money, and you don't have major manufacturer money, you need a good source of revenue. Governments are a great source of revenue. They can underwrite and guarantee any check the local promoter needs to write. Why does F1 go to Durban and Turkey while giving up great tracks in Europe? Because, very simply, those governments are willing to pay F1 to be there.

Champcar is no different. It has been well documented how promoters have fallen by the wayside, how CART was forced to self promote at the last minute to save some of these races, and how those races have been a major money drainer on the company. Champcar needs to strengthen the bottom line and they need to do it now. Governments who are willing to pay to bring Champcar to their country is a very smart way of making guaranteed income.

Could we get the Wisconsin state government to underwrite RA? of course not. Hell, Nascar can't get Michigan to build a 4 lane highway to MIS... what chance do we have?

Does that mean that RA is going the way of the dodo? I don't think so. If they can get a few new races in other countries to complement the series, then that can cover the costs of an RA or an MO to be on the sked. The profitable races help the less profitable races.

The most important part of these new races, is making the umbrella group profitable. If Champcar is profitable, then they can filter some monies down to all the teams. This is a working formula. I watched an inside look at Monster Trucking one day. Each truck team is paid to be at an event. And the prize money is symbolic, to make the fans think there is a 'competition'. Teams make enough on appearance fees to support their trucks, and in turn, appearing ensures the series survives. I think Champcar is looking at this model.

Simply, Champcar just wants to be paid to run somewhere. They do not have the finances to promote themselves everywhere they go, and to worry about enough sponsors and tickets to cover costs. That is why a government who can underwrite it is so important. These Australia type of races are important for the financial well being of the company and the series. Once Champcar becomes profitable again, part of the profits can be streamed to the teams, which won't have to rely as much on sponsorship monies, which in turn makes sponsoring a champcar a much more viable option.

Steve

[racer2c]

Like Denver or Miami?

They're racing in Miami? News to me.

[Sean O'Gorman]

They're racing in Miami? News to me.

So maybe they aren't, that doesn't change the fact that with their line of thinking, Miami is a more coveted event than Road America or Mid-Ohio.

[RaceGrrl]

I seriously doubt that that's what they PREFER, but it may be reality for the survival of the series. Stop being obtuse.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I seriously doubt that that's what they PREFER, but it may be reality for the survival of the series. Stop being obtuse.

Obtuse? How acute of you to say that. ;)

I seem to recall the series being much more successful when they embraced tracks like Mid-Ohio and Road America instead of shunning them.

[KLang]

I seem to recall the series being much more successful when they embraced tracks like Mid-Ohio and Road America instead of shunning them.

Shunning seems off base. If Mid-Ohio will pay the fee, I'm sure Champ Car would be happy to show up.

[scanman]

If a race on a street course sucks, does anyone bother to watch it?
Yes, all the paying people at THE TRACK and I am one...

Remember, this is ChampCar against the twirl....the TV ratings
are similar....BUT, the butts in the stands matter...why is the twirl
going RR....trying to steal more of ChampCar... :shakehead

[RichK]

Water park, concerts, etc. do nothing to increase the fan's interest in the on-track product, which is what the sport needs for survival; in fact, I'd say it does the opposite, since the sideshow distracts the fan from the main event.


Sean, I'm a recent "crossover" from single-guy to married-with-a-kid guy. Water parks/concerts/go-karts/etc. will get entire families to the track. Although my wife is a racing fan, Long Beach is an easier "sell" than Laguna because there is more to do & see for three days.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Shunning seems off base. If Mid-Ohio will pay the fee, I'm sure Champ Car would be happy to show up.

Well maybe someday UNICEF will get into the race promotion business, but last I checked race tracks don't run events that wont turn a profit. I'm not going to say Mid-Ohio is blameless if they can't turn a profit, but if the product (Champ Car) isn't in demand, there isn't a whole lot that Mid-Ohio can do.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sean, I'm a recent "crossover" from single-guy to married-with-a-kid guy. Water parks/concerts/go-karts/etc. will get entire families to the track. Although my wife is a racing fan, Long Beach is an easier "sell" than Laguna because there is more to do & see for three days.

I guess it depends on how you want to sell the events. Are we trying to increase the fan base or merely keep non-race fans occupied for a weekend? If its the second one, then I can't imagine the future of the series being too bright.

Mansfield packed in 20,000 fans (a sell out, and trust me, there wasnt an inch to spare for seating) in an area even harder to get to than Mid-Ohio for a "minor league" stock car race. As far as I know there were no side attractions, hell, there weren't even support races. If they can do it, why can't Champ Car?

[scanman]

I'm not going to say Mid-Ohio is blameless if they can't turn a profit, but if the product (Champ Car) isn't in demand, there isn't a whole lot that Mid-Ohio can do.
So what's the problem?....simple, if they show,
give them a show, if you don't like street races, you better look elswhere...
Me, I love em plus the natural road courses and also the short ovals...
:thumbup: Phaukin Aye... :D

[Dr. Corkski]

It seems to me that an establish sucessful street race like Long Beach, which supposedly has been setting new attendance records year after year, doesn't translate its success to other races. It looks like a majority of the people who went to Long Beach don't follow the series anymore after the event, as can be seen by a drop in attendance at the two other non street races within the state. The sponsorship situation is not going to stablize until more people start following the series even when the beer tent is not there.

[RaceGrrl]

Sean, let me explain this in small words so you can understand:

Bring kids to the track, make future fans. :rolleyes:

[Ankf00]

It seems to me that an establish sucessful street race like Long Beach, which supposedly has been setting new attendance records year after year, doesn't translate its success to other races. It looks like a majority of the people who went to Long Beach don't follow the series anymore after the event, as can be seen by a drop in attendance at the two other non street races within the state. The sponsorship situation is not going to stablize until more people start following the series even when the beer tent is not there.
they need to bring in young fans, which there were very very few of at LB who weren't spending all day in the trans-am paddock or the car show inside the expo

[racer2c]

It seems to me that an establish sucessful street race like Long Beach, which supposedly has been setting new attendance records year after year, doesn't translate its success to other races. It looks like a majority of the people who went to Long Beach don't follow the series anymore after the event, as can be seen by a drop in attendance at the two other non street races within the state. The sponsorship situation is not going to stablize until more people start following the series even when the beer tent is not there.

It's my understanding that the Long Beach crowd, while many a lemming over the years have tried to convince that it is just an 'event' crowd, is actually much more of a knowledgeable Champ Car oriented crowd than people ever gave them credit for being. Heck, the race is over twenty years old. It's not crowd full of first timers every year.
LS and Fontana were both well attended races at one time. There are many factors in the decline of attendance at those events other than just saying "the Long Beach crowd are event people, not Champ Car fans and couldn't care less about LS and Fontana".
The fact of the matter is, when the race is in the middle of ten of millions of people, it's a million times easier to get 75K people to come.

[Dr. Corkski]

Sean, let me explain this in small words so you can understand:

Bring kids to the track, make future fans. :rolleyes:That would explain why the bike events in the X-Games are so popular, because that's what all the kids were watching inside the Long Beach Arena.

[Ankf00]

That would explain why the bike events in the X-Games are so popular, because that's what all the kids were watching inside the Long Beach Arena.
well there was the one child with those 10 adults asking how the drivers kept rain off their visors in quals and they said "rain-x, they must use rain-x" ....
and the dude with his gf standing on the balcony with us telling her how they have a 6 speed shiftgate like their car does

[Tim]

I will say from experience that the Long Beach crowd is the least knowledgeable out of any race I've been too. They are to busy getting high or going to the oxygen bar to watch a race. Attendance has probably been the same for year after year.

[Sean O'Gorman]

That would explain why the bike events in the X-Games are so popular, because that's what all the kids were watching inside the Long Beach Arena.

Touche.

The eight people who I brought to the Cleveland GP last year probably couldn't tell you a thing about what actually happened during the race, but they sure as hell remember the free Labatt's shirts they caught. I'm sure they are doing wonders for the TV ratings too. :rolleyes:

[pchall]

Obtuse? How acute of you to say that. ;)

I seem to recall the series being much more successful when they embraced tracks like Mid-Ohio and Road America instead of shunning them.

I'm sure Champcar would like to keep going to M-O. If only Ms. Gajoch would get off her lazy butt and hustle up her own race sponsorship. She got "lazy promoter syndrome" in the mid 90s and is so addicted to Honda and Miller bucks that she can't think straight. She's the one that failed on replacing sponsorship, fan appreciation, and basic race promotion.

[RaceGrrl]

You kids are so funny. :laugh:

[pchall]

You kids are so funny. :laugh:

I am not a kid.

And I am going to hold my breath and jump up and down until you acknowledge that. :p

[Tim]

If anyone wants to see how a street race should be done just head north to Toronto. Long Beach sucks balls compared to races up there. Champ car needs less of these races.

[Ankf00]

I will say from experience that the Long Beach crowd is the least knowledgeable out of any race I've been too. They are to busy getting high or going to the oxygen bar to watch a race. Attendance has probably been the same for year after year.
Long Beach was full of tools compared to Montreal too

fun to go to, plenty of real fans, but so many more tools, and no young ppl there for the champcars unfortunately which is something i brought up when we had our get together dinner that weekend

[doppelganger]

There is nothing wrong with trying to create a family atmosphere at a Champ Car race. Many factors will contribute to the success or failure of the series. Any parent will tell you it is difficult to keep a young child's attention on any one thing for hours. There is nothing wrong with giving a child an occasional diversion. No parent who has spent a weekend with an unhappy, bored child will want to repeat that. And in time, that child will be able to focus more on the on-track activities and become a fan.

[Dr. Corkski]

There is nothing wrong with giving a child an occasional diversion.At Long Beach, I believe that's what the Champ Cars were for, and I am not just talking about the kids for that matter. ;)

[pchall]

There is nothing wrong with trying to create a family atmosphere at a Champ Car race. Many factors will contribute to the success or failure of the series. Any parent will tell you it is difficult to keep a young child's attention on any one thing for hours. There is nothing wrong with giving a child an occasional diversion. No parent who has spent a weekend with an unhappy, bored child will want to repeat that. And in time, that child will be able to focus more on the on-track activities and become a fan.

Bingo.

I'd relate numerous anecdotes to support this, but kids like SOG will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and stick their tongues out.

[Ankf00]

At Long Beach, I believe that's what the Champ Cars were for, and I am not just talking about the kids for that matter. ;)
why watch quals when you could be flirting with the girls modeling inside the expo or trying to sneak into the pro/celeb paddock?

the most knowledgable crowd on the circuit wouldn't have 10x more ppl hanging over the expo balcony to watch pro/celeb than Champ Cars

[Sean O'Gorman]

Bingo.

I'd relate numerous anecdotes to support this, but kids like SOG will stick their fingers in their ears, close their eyes, and stick their tongues out.

:p

I'm assuming that any of your stories are much more than 15 years old, because in case you haven't noticed, the fanbase for my generation and younger is more or less non-existant. :( And unless my memory is tricking me, I remember going to Mid-Ohio at age 5 and becoming a fan without any carnivals or any of that other crap.

[racer2c]

I'm rather surprised at all of this as we knew this was going to happen. At one time last year it was speculated that every Champ Car race would be a street circuit 'event'. The CCWS needs to get healthy and build it's fanbase so those people are willing to drive out into the middle of nowhere for a proper race course. Be thankful Motorock never appeared.
It will be interesting to see how many show up at Long Beach if Tony and Toyota finally get their greasy paws on that race.

[RichK]

It will be interesting to see how many show up at Long Beach if Tony and Toyota finally get their greasy paws on that race.

I don't think you would see a dip in attendance at all.

[racer2c]

I don't think you would see a dip in attendance at all.
Probably not. But I read a David Philips piece about this subject and he also said that people would may be surprised if it actually comes to pass. Hopefully it won't.

[RichK]

Mansfield packed in 20,000 fans (a sell out, and trust me, there wasnt an inch to spare for seating) in an area even harder to get to than Mid-Ohio for a "minor league" stock car race. As far as I know there were no side attractions, hell, there weren't even support races. If they can do it, why can't Champ Car?

CART *DID* do it, back when there was an interesting series. Remember that? The series isn't very interesting anymore to most people, it's not The Big Time and so it doesn't draw.

[Sean O'Gorman]

CART *DID* do it, back when there was an interesting series. Remember that? The series isn't very interesting anymore to most people, it's not The Big Time and so it doesn't draw.

Isn't that exactly what I've been saying since this thread began?

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't think you would see a dip in attendance at all.

Really? I'd imagine that anyone who pays to see IRL at Long Beach is a dips****, does that count?

[Dr. Corkski]

Really? I'd imagine that anyone who pays to see IRL at Long Beach is a dips****, does that count?Careful dude. Some of the SoCal OC folks (and it's not Brickman I am referring to) have gone to at least one of the IRL races at Fontana.

[cart7]

I'm rather surprised at all of this as we knew this was going to happen. At one time last year it was speculated that every Champ Car race would be a street circuit 'event'. The CCWS needs to get healthy and build it's fanbase so those people are willing to drive out into the middle of nowhere for a proper race course. Be thankful Motorock never appeared.
It will be interesting to see how many show up at Long Beach if Tony and Toyota finally get their greasy paws on that race.
You're right, Pook was singing this same song around a year ago. The tune still isn't catchy for me yet. :(

[pchall]

Careful dude. Some of the SoCal OC folks (and it's not Brickman I am referring to) have gone to at least one of the IRL races at Fontana.


Did you actually pay to go?

Or just waste an afternoon with freebies?

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

The bottom line is, appealing to the current fan, while cultivating new fans. Many new fans are youth. How does one appeal to youth? Material things, the ability to get close to the action, Concerts, food, etc.

I recently asked my daughter why she liked OWR.

Her answer was simple. She feels at home in that atmosphere. She likes working with the media and team reps. She likes being a part of a successful race. She likes working with and talking with drivers and team members. Ever since she was about 16, she did not have an "awe factor" about people involved with CART. It was all business to her. And, public realtions. she sees herself as both a fan and a professional in the sport. yet, she never passes up the chance to cultivate a new potential fan. For she knows that new fans ensure the survival of OWR. But, there are just as many new potential fans in areas that host a road course event as those that host a street course or oval event. It is just a matter of reaching those potential fans.

I truly hope that OWRSwill not turn its back on the American fans who cannot afford to travel the world. The American fans who value races at Mid Ohio or Road America or the Milwaukee Mile. For it is diversity of tracks that makes the OWRS unique.

Getting off my soap box now ;)

[Dr. Corkski]

Did you actually pay to go?

Or just waste an afternoon with freebies?I never went, couldn't be bothered to go.

I don't know if said OC members actually paid their way in, but I certainly hope not. So what even if it was a freebie?

[Ankf00]

I never went, couldn't be bothered to go.

I don't know if said OC members actually paid their way in, but I certainly hope not. So what even if it was a freebie?
it's cuz you're just not "hardcore" enough of a CART fan ;)

[mueber]

There is nothing wrong with trying to create a family atmosphere at a Champ Car race. Many factors will contribute to the success or failure of the series. Any parent will tell you it is difficult to keep a young child's attention on any one thing for hours. There is nothing wrong with giving a child an occasional diversion. No parent who has spent a weekend with an unhappy, bored child will want to repeat that. And in time, that child will be able to focus more on the on-track activities and become a fan.

Indeed, any parent, or babysitting uncle in my case, could have written this.
Sometimes the struggle for absolute purity around here is laughable.

As for Mid-Ohio, I love the place, but it's a small family business, and no one there seems to have broken into a sweat trying to make the ChampCar race there a success until it seemed obvious they were going to lose it. " Breaking out into a sweat" in the case of last year's event amounted to having the mayor of Mansfield address the crowd before the start of the race.

Kalkovan is saying, "we are going where we are wanted." What OWRS needs is partners. The tracks need to step up the way the three amigos have stepped up if the sport is to do well.

[Madmaxfan2]

I guess this whole thread has turned into what kind of fan Champ Car should be chasing and how that affects what venues to go to. This is however is true, the most loyal fan base Champ Car has is the mature, afflunent, male who prefers real challenging road courses with real elevation changes and challegning courses. This fan eschews the IRL vision from the get go. The spokeman for this group is Paul Newman. These guys will go into the sticks for tracks like Mid-Ohio and Road America for the driver/machine challenge. They do not need addtional entertainment for a draw. The growth crowd wants the Champ Car racing to be a part of an edgy entertainment experience. It has to be in close proximity to an large urban area with rock concerts and bars as a part of the overall experince. driver/machine challenge becomes secondary. Who is right I don"t know. However, the IRL growth strategy is not that terribly different. The difference is oval tracks instead of street courses with dumbed down formula cars. The biggest lession out of the IRL experence is alienating your core base. We all know the original core base of the IRL was the USAC dirt oval elderly racing types that are dying off. They are not afflunent antd therefore could not support the IRL. However, the new IRL strategy has alienated thier original core and the attendence numbers keep going south. However, the Champ Car core was strong enough to keep it going against all odds. The real danger here is the Champ Car growth strategy better be carefaul and not alienating the core base by cancelling the traditional road courses, the loss of Mid Ohio is one mistake already.
The IRL has seen this and learned from it's mistakes, no wonder they are willing to take a chance and jump on that traditional Champ Car road racing base, snagging dates at M-O and RA. Whether that is successful is subject to debate, but the three amigos better pay attention.

[Winston Wolfe]

I never went, couldn't be bothered to go.

I don't know if said OC members actually paid their way in, but I certainly hope not. So what even if it was a freebie?

Cork, there were some of us who had to go for a "work" related thang.... while others just went to spend time as a get together, and see some of our old CART drivers to get stuff autographed that didnt get done the last time CART raced there....

Never spent a dime on the EARL..... never will..... :shakehead

[RichK]

Well maybe someday UNICEF will get into the race promotion business,

By the way, I like your movie reference.....

[mueber]

If only core fans show up at Road America this year, will there be enough of us to make the event profitable? If not, should OWRS subsidize the event in the future for the sake of purity? And at what point should they cut off the subsidies if it continues to lose money?

[JLMannin]

If only core fans show up at Road America this year, will there be enough of us to make the event profitable? If not, should OWRS subsidize the event in the future for the sake of purity? And at what point should they cut off the subsidies if it continues to lose money?

Sounds to me like Kalkoven is saying that Champcar will no longer to the self-promoted races. If Road America wants a race, they have to act like they actually want it by exerting the effort (and money) to promote the event. In turn, it is Champcars responsibility to have a sanctioning acreement in place that rewards the track ownership for putting forth the effort to promote the event and generate revenue via ticket sales. A natural consequence of such an agreement would be money to both parties.

Is much as I may like the event, if Road America insists on a cash rent by OWRS with OWRS doing self promotion, it is time to walk away.

[oddlycalm]

I believe what he means is that it has to make sense financialy.

Bingo. These guys are laying out some very heavy paper this year, and they aren't doing it as a benevolent charity. They intend to have a self supporting series, and in the absence of big money sponsorship, they don't have any room to maneuver. To me, it's good to see that he is realistic about their position and understands what has to happen in order to survive.

The good times can only come again if there is an organization intact.

oc

[Insomniac]

Sounds to me like Kalkoven is saying that Champcar will no longer to the self-promoted races. If Road America wants a race, they have to act like they actually want it by exerting the effort (and money) to promote the event. In turn, it is Champcars responsibility to have a sanctioning acreement in place that rewards the track ownership for putting forth the effort to promote the event and generate revenue via ticket sales. A natural consequence of such an agreement would be money to both parties.

Is much as I may like the event, if Road America insists on a cash rent by OWRS with OWRS doing self promotion, it is time to walk away.

That is what the sacnctioning fee is all about. The track/promoter pays OWRS $X and they get a race. It is then up to the track/promoter to make that money back. That is the way it worked until attendance started dropping and tracks/promoters either wanted their sanctioning fee lowered or CART/OWRS to help promote. OWRS needs to go places where they pay a fee and they show up and put on a race. If a track/promoter makes $1 or $millions, let them. OWRS needs to get out of that business and I think that is exactly what they are trying to do. In the end, it will be the customers who decide where OWRS goes.

[Insomniac]

If only core fans show up at Road America this year, will there be enough of us to make the event profitable? If not, should OWRS subsidize the event in the future for the sake of purity? And at what point should they cut off the subsidies if it continues to lose money?

I think it makes terrible business sense to go somewhere and lose money. OWRS should not pay for the sake of holding a race to appease the fans, I'll miss RA (if it goes away) and Mid-Ohio, but they can't just keep losing money. Which is the exact reason they left. They need to go where there is demand and once the interest builds, then maybe the other tracks will be willing to hold a race becaus they feel the product will bring enough fans to the track.

[Madmaxfan2]

I think it has been stated in this thread that when CART was strong Road America and Mid Ohio were business successes. They can be again. Making money at evry venue is a good goal, but if you kick out the traditional tracks that started the series, is that a good move in the long run becuase of short term difficulties? Let's see what happen to NASCAR since that outfit has adopted the strategy.

[Sean O'Gorman]

By the way, I like your movie reference.....

:D

[Steve99]

That is what the sacnctioning fee is all about. The track/promoter pays OWRS $X and they get a race. It is then up to the track/promoter to make that money back. That is the way it worked until attendance started dropping and tracks/promoters either wanted their sanctioning fee lowered or CART/OWRS to help promote. OWRS needs to go places where they pay a fee and they show up and put on a race. If a track/promoter makes $1 or $millions, let them. OWRS needs to get out of that business and I think that is exactly what they are trying to do. In the end, it will be the customers who decide where OWRS goes.

I don't think it was an attendence problem as much as an IRL problem. With the IRL going to all the CART tracks and offering to run for TonyBucks, it undercut CART's sanctioning fees. The track owners then got either lazy or greedy.

[Insomniac]

I think it has been stated in this thread that when CART was strong Road America and Mid Ohio were business successes. They can be again. Making money at evry venue is a good goal, but if you kick out the traditional tracks that started the series, is that a good move in the long run becuase of short term difficulties? Let's see what happen to NASCAR since that outfit has adopted the strategy.

I guess it depends on what short and long term is. Numbers have been dropping for a while. To the point that RA didn't want to/couldn't pay CART. I'd rather see them drop the track and secure a long term future. If they can bring back the ineterst here in the US, it will make sense for them to go there. RA will want them there.

[Insomniac]

I don't think it was an attendence problem as much as an IRL problem. With the IRL going to all the CART tracks and offering to run for TonyBucks, it undercut CART's sanctioning fees. The track owners then got either lazy or greedy.

I don't think TonyBucks pushed the fans away. Plus, he has yet to even get one RR on his schedule. I know this will change next year, but 3, 4 years ago he wasn't trying to get those tracks. Ovals, yes (between him and ISC). Road courses, no. His deep pockets do scare me though. I don't see any track having a problem with him paying them to race there. Which is probably why OWRS is trying to scure new locations. The IRL can't race everywhere in the US.

[Steve99]

I think when FTG started renting tracks (ovals) for the IRL is about the same time that many track owners (ovals and road courses) reduced promotion efforts for Champ Car races. Why go to all the work if you can just wait around for someone to write you a big check? The IRL has been talking about going road racing for years now. How long has it been since the first big CART team defected?

[Insomniac]

I think when FTG started renting tracks (ovals) for the IRL is about the same time that many track owners (ovals and road courses) reduced promotion efforts for Champ Car races. Why go to all the work if you can just wait around for someone to write you a big check? The IRL has been talking about going road racing for years now. How long has it been since the first big CART team defected?

Chip ran Indy in 2000 and Penske left after the 2001 season. It just seems odd to me a promoter/race track owner would start taking losses in the hopes TG would come around. If his only goal was/is to kill CART/OWRS, then he will want the tracks that are good for us, not ones we are about to drop or have dropped. Besides, if you can get him to pay you and you keep the gate, then you might as well keep the customers coming.