A Lesson From Richard Petty To TG & The Fifth Column

[DaveL]

The King has summed it up better than I can and I offer it with no further commentary. This quote may be found on pg. 100 of American Zoom



The deal is that no race track ever paid me a penny, and no car company has ever paid me a penny, in the sense that is the fans who bought the product, bought the tickets, bought STP or Pontiac, and that money goes through those people to me. So without the fans, the tracks or NASCAR or STP or Pontiac wouldn't be here, and I wouldn't be here.

The fans are the nucleus of racing. Without the fans, we wouldn't be sitting here in my living room overlooking the racetrack, because there would be no racetrack, there would be no Richard Petty. The fans are the root of the whole sport. I learned this from my father. The fans are the ones to who pay for everything. (emphasis added)

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Astute comment from a one-time tobacco farmer.

[Madmaxfan2]

Richard Petty gets it. OWRS survives against all the forces of TG because of the fans. You cannot buy fans Tony.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Richard Petty gets it. OWRS survives against all the forces of TG because of the fans. You cannot buy fans Tony.

Uhh, last I checked, OWRS wasn't doing much better than TG, if at all. Theres more to the fanbase than hardcores who post on racing forums.

[Brickman]

It is very much true that Indy made drivers, but fans made Indy.

[Madmaxfan2]

Uhh, last I checked, OWRS wasn't doing much better than TG, if at all. Theres more to the fanbase than hardcores who post on racing forums.

The number of fans at Long Beach don't count? Hell, all OWRS has is the fans, unlike the EARL which has the stars, the cars, manufacturer involvement, the hype, the press, Indy 500, Sarah, blab, blab. So, why is not OWRS dead yet?

[Sean O'Gorman]

The number of fans at Long Beach don't count? Hell, all OWRS has is the fans, unlike the EARL which has the stars, the cars, manufacturer involvement, the hype, the press, Indy 500, Sarah, blab, blab. So, why is not OWRS dead yet?

CART had all those "fans" at Long Beach for years, look how they ended up. OWRS is still around because Gentilozzi, Forsythe, and Kalkhoven want somewhere to race without going to the IRL.

Isn't this conversation just going to go in circles over and over and over again like every other time it comes up?

[Madmaxfan2]

CART had all those "fans" at Long Beach for years, look how they ended up. OWRS is still around because Gentilozzi, Forsythe, and Kalkhoven want somewhere to race without going to the IRL.

Isn't this conversation just going to go in circles over and over and over again like every other time it comes up?

We shall see which side wins, then it won't be a conversation. Yes, there will be a winner and a loser. TG will not compromise and enact a merger. It has been proven that the North American market cannot sustain two top healthy level open wheel racing series. That fact has not stopped TG. Therefore, the sport will grind to near halt while this plays out.

[nrc]

CART had all those "fans" at Long Beach for years, look how they ended up. OWRS is still around because Gentilozzi, Forsythe, and Kalkhoven want somewhere to race without going to the IRL.

I think OWRs gave more consideration to whether ChampCar could become a self-supporting entity than you imply. I don't think they did it just to have a place to race with the expectation that they would be paying for it indefinitely.

[RaceGrrl]

Isn't this conversation just going to go in circles over and over and over again like every other time it comes up?

Stop contributing to the argument then. :p

[racer2c]

Uhh, last I checked, OWRS wasn't doing much better than TG, if at all. Theres more to the fanbase than hardcores who post on racing forums.

Still quick to pounce all over Champ Car eh Sean?

Tony's had nine years to fulfill his vision and he's failed. He has Toyota, Honda, Chevy money who's only contribution to the health of open wheel racing has been ensuring that Tony's crapwagons are powered. Where are the increasing TV numbers and packed stands that Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, Adrian were to bring to the table? Instead they're going backwards. Why? No fans.

There is still a small but loyal fanbase for Champ Cars. Many of the fans from the 80's and 90's are the one's going to Champ Car races. CART was stronger than the IRL with the IRL's current crop of corporate corrupter's, so where are all the people? Where are the fans Tony? CART lost the teams and the sponsors and the engines but low and behold they retained a loyal fanbase. The IRL gained all of those aforementioned things and keep slipping into the abyss. What's wrong Tony?
And like nrc pointed out, OWRS wouldn't have done what they did if there wasn't a loyal and enthusiastic fanbase.
The King is correct, it's all about the fans and that is something that all of the IRL fails to understand. Their goal all along was to lure away the CART fans and NASCAR fans. Both goals have failed.

[pchall]

CART had all those "fans" at Long Beach for years, look how they ended up. OWRS is still around because Gentilozzi, Forsythe, and Kalkhoven want somewhere to race without going to the IRL.

Isn't this conversation just going to go in circles over and over and over again like every other time it comes up?


Your end certainly is.

[oddlycalm]

Contrast what Richard Petty said with what Roger Penske said, and also with what TG has done, and you have a perfect explanation for why things are in the state they are in.

TG assumes the fans are idiots and will always be there, and his hopelessly hokey sideshow like operation reflects that. Penske, on the other hand, believes it's all about who you know. Petty has it right. Without the fans there wouldn't be any racing.

oc

[Sean O'Gorman]

Stop contributing to the argument then. :p

Stop disagreeing with me. ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Still quick to pounce all over Champ Car eh Sean?

I wouldn't pounce on Champ Car if it wasn't a big deal to me to see them succeed. When I lost interest in the IRL I just stopped paying attention to it, outside of watching Indy and any races that are on while I have nothing else to do. Would you prefer me to go that method with Champ Car also? Besides, its not like anything we say here is going to change the course of history, its just forum talk.

[JT265]

I wouldn't pounce on Champ Car if it wasn't a big deal to me to see them succeed. When I lost interest in the IRL I just stopped paying attention to it, outside of watching Indy and any races that are on while I have nothing else to do. Would you prefer me to go that method with Champ Car also? Besides, its not like anything we say here is going to change the course of history, its just forum talk.

I'm waiting for a dissertation entitled.....

"How I would fix ChampCar", by SeanO.

Have it on my desk in the morning. ;)

[RaceGrrl]

I'm waiting for a dissertation entitled.....

"How I would fix ChampCar", by SeanO.

Have it on my desk in the morning. ;)

Great point, JT. Not that the topic hasn't been covered before- but SeanO, why don't you take his suggestion to heart and start that topic over in the ChampCar forum?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Great point, JT. Not that the topic hasn't been covered before- but SeanO, why don't you take his suggestion to heart and start that topic over in the ChampCar forum?

Because I thought the whole point of the Internet is to make big claims and not have to worry about backing them up? :D

I have my ideas, and I'm sure that I've shared them here and elsewhere, but even a know-it-all punk like me understands that there is more to the situation than us casual fans could possibly be informed of, so I wouldn't bother if I couldn't take the unknown factors into account.

[racer2c]

Wait a second here! You mean to tell me that my years of pontification have done nothing for the health of my beloved sport?!?!?!
I thought Chip And Rog read my every word! That changes everything!!
Well, I did hear that Rogers pool boy looks in from time to time.

This forum helps to perpetuate a community of like minded Champ Car fans. A repository for thoughts, beliefs, theories and conspiracies for a unified Champ Car world. :gomer:

[JT265]

Because I thought the whole point of the Internet is to make big claims and not have to worry about backing them up? :D

I have my ideas, and I'm sure that I've shared them here and elsewhere, but even a know-it-all punk like me understands that there is more to the situation than us casual fans could possibly be informed of, so I wouldn't bother if I couldn't take the unknown factors into account.

Yeah, but you're a know-it-all punk with a marketing course and a penchant for clapped-out Toyotas.

The assignment is still due.

PS: Everything on earth has "unknown factors"

Get busy.

[SteveH]

I agree w/ Petty, however I'm not sure his comments accurately reflect the business conditions that surround open wheel today. Quite simply, there aren't enough fans to really care about. Our numbers aren't strong enough to make a difference, evidently. Our fan support was not enough to carry CART through its financial difficulites. The support for the IRL and the Indy 500 certainly isn't any better. Unfortunately, its the maunfacturers that support the series today - almost in opposition of what the fans feel. How many IRL fans really like what Honda and Toyota are doing in the IRL? Will the increase that Toyota and Honda have from supporting the IRL offset the lack of support from Champ Car fans? They don't care, because our numbers aren't large enough. As soon as the reality of the IRL catches up with H&T's business model, I suspect TG will find out that his fans don't matter either. Sorry if this sounds a little cynical. Replace fans with consumers in his remarks and I will agree fully. But unfortunately, consumers aren't always fans.

[RTKar]

I agree w/ Petty, however I'm not sure his comments accurately reflect the business conditions that surround open wheel today. Quite simply, there aren't enough fans to really care about. Our numbers aren't strong enough to make a difference, evidently. Our fan support was not enough to carry CART through its financial difficulites. The support for the IRL and the Indy 500 certainly isn't any better. Unfortunately, its the maunfacturers that support the series today - almost in opposition of what the fans feel. How many IRL fans really like what Honda and Toyota are doing in the IRL? Will the increase that Toyota and Honda have from supporting the IRL offset the lack of support from Champ Car fans? They don't care, because our numbers aren't large enough. As soon as the reality of the IRL catches up with H&T's business model, I suspect TG will find out that his fans don't matter either. Sorry if this sounds a little cynical. Replace fans with consumers in his remarks and I will agree fully. But unfortunately, consumers aren't always fans.

I agree with Petty and you as well Steve, both open wheel series are on life support and in their current form really have no reason to exist other than big money ego's. Neither are self sustaining and whether either one can be is debatable. I truly believe Champcar has the better business model but will the owner's pockets be deep enough and more importantly, is there anyone out there willing to buy the product besides us?

[Steve99]

I suspect TG will find out that his fans don't matter either.

The fans never mattered to TG.

[Madmaxfan2]

The fans never mattered to TG.
No truer of a statement has ever been spoken here.

[Racewriter]

I'm waiting for a dissertation entitled.....

"How I would fix ChampCar", by SeanO.

Have it on my desk in the morning. ;)

Would you like mine?;)

[JT265]

Would you like mine?;)

Sure. Fire away.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Would you like mine?;)

I'd like to hear it.

[Racewriter]

This was actually posted on "another forum" a few months ago.

1. First and foremost - forget about Tony George, the IRL, Indianapolis Motor Speedway, and the Indianapolis 500. You're not getting back in there. Even if the IRL should cease to exist someday, the 500 would be either a NASCAR race or a USAC race before it ever became an OWRS race. Whether that's right or kind or not, it's life. Walk away and focus on OWRS, something that successive leaders of CART were unable to do.

2. Enough big talk, trash or otherwise. Just do it. From Heitzler's 'knock your socks off' announcements, to Pook's V10s, to Rahal's Texas race, to Paul's 'you're on crack' comments, the leaders of OWRS have made more headlines than the drivers. That's wrong. Stop acting like the MC at a strip bar, get in the background, and focus on doing, not saying. Be the ball.

3. As of right now, OWRS is essentially out of the superspeedway business. That's probably OK. Keep the short ovals where possible, and optimize the package around nimble, overhorsepowered cars that will test the driver and put on great shows on road/street courses and short ovals without having to overbuild them for superspeedway racing.

4. Forget any rules or other developments that mean the series must rely on $5-10M/year per car budgets. In this climate, anybody with money like that will go to Cup or BGN, or they'll be a manufacturer that puts a noose around the series' neck. Make it a series that can be run for $1.5 to $3M/year, and run well at that.

5. And while you're at it, forget F1-inspired engine formulae. The supply of Cozzies won't last forever, and OWRS is going to need a new formula probably by 2005. The new formula should be one that does not require manufacturer participation, and can be supported entirely from the aftermarket (based on availability right now, not anticipated availability). My suggestion - production-based 2.0 liter DOHC fours. There's a big aftermarket presence in these engines, and nearly every manufacturer has one. Heck, the long-rumored Kia presence might even materialize. An engine like this would be light, readily available to the point of absurdity, and can make more than enough HP for great racing. You'll pay a slight price in reliability, especially at first, but the gains are there. From marketing perspectives, this could actually get the Fast & Furious crowd interested. Allow heavy-duty blocks and heads, so long as they keep to the production configuration (like, for instance, a Rodeck small block Chevy interchanges with a regular SBC). Send a courtesy letter to all the major manufacturers informing them of the change, but don't beg them to get in. If they'd like to play, use the NASCAR rule - any race part must be sold over the counter to any purchaser with money.

6. Now, since your car can be designed with a narrower purpose in mind, see what could be done about some reasonable cost-cutting (without affecting safety or performance), and maybe encouraging more builders to get involved.

7. Finally - and this is the most controversial - take a look at the 'original' IRL fanbase. Many of them are disenchanted, and some might be won over. How? Glad you asked. NASCAR has proven the ability and marketability of the short-track openwheel talent pool for more than a decade. Dip into it. Don't dump Paul Tracy, but it's known that there were more than a few warm bodies in last year's field. Cut a couple and replace them with proven winners. My suggestions would be Dave Steele, who is the top pavement short track driver in the country now, for one ride. For the other, there are a few - Cory Kruseman would be good and just won the biggest midget race in the country. If a youth movement is an idea, try Boston Reid or Bobby East. The USAC guys go to NASCAR and end up beating top road racers like Pruett, Fellows, Said, etc. After a short adjustment period, they'd be fine in OWRS, and a fanbase would follow these guys. Potential win-win. A diverse talent base (not just nationalities, but types of racing) was a strength of Indy racing for a long time. Let's get back to that.

8. Announce the engine formula now. Allow any team who wishes to enter them, starting in July. Track time will work new-car bugs out. If they prove immediately superior to the Cozzies, adjust the boost for this year only.

9. I already said OWRS will never go back to IMS, and I mean it. However, there is still a fanbase in Indianapolis, and the offices and teams are there. If it's decided that OWRS really needs an Indianapolis race, then how about the IRP road course? There's some traditional backing for it. Just an idea.


Anyway, a few constructive ideas. I've basically given up on the IRL making any constructive changes to build for the future...

[racer2c]

#1, I think OWRS isn't Indycentric anymore. Haas going to Indy isn't OWRS.

#2, Personally I don't think CART was ever over the edge in it's vocal politicking. Actually, I think the opposite. It's refreshing to see the new owners speak their opinions. CEO's do it every day. Coaches do it. Players do it. Drivers do it.

#5, The 2.65 lt turbo has become a signature of the modern Champ Car. I would hardly label it F1 derived. The last thing I want in Champ Car are a bunch of Mike the Mechanic Engine Shops supplying engines. The Fast and Furious crowd are into engines. Contrary to popular belief, this crowd is into engines of all cylinder count, not just four bangers. They're as blown away buy a built out 'stang as they are a turbo VTEC on juice. It just so happens, most can afford the Civic but not the SVT 'stang.


#7, NASCAR has already established the ladder from the short trackers to the Nextel Cup. I don't see the CCWS making much headway in that area. The CCWS should make a definitive, clear and reliable ladder from go-karts through Atlantic's to Champ Cars. CCWS needs the up and coming A.J. Allmendingers.

As for OWRS never returning, never say never. If the rumors are true and Tony is ready to step aside and he's garnered a major sponsor who is willing to stick it out for the long haul and all parties are prepared meet in the middle on the specs, it could happen. The rumors are pointing that way.

[Napoleon]

I have to say I almost entirely agree with RW comments.

[JT265]

I have to say I almost entirely agree with RW comments.

Me too. See, you can find common sense almost anywhere if you look hard enough. ;) And BTW, R-Dubs ideas work a whole lot better for me than some convoluted deal where Pimpski and Mumbles have anything to do with it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

#1, I think OWRS isn't Indycentric anymore. Haas going to Indy isn't OWRS.middle on the specs, it could happen.

I think it still is, in the sense that everything that the IRL does has an effect on CART, since they are competitors. There isn't really much that can be done about that, I'm afraid.

I like RW's points, but I don't see how #7 could work without OWRS having a significant oval racing presence. Maybe if there were enough short ovals on the schedule. This is just me daydreaming, but I'd like to see all roads lead to Champ Car. It would be a major plus for the sport if the Champ Car driver lineup included formula car racers and short track racers.

[Racewriter]

I have to say I almost entirely agree with RW comments.

Man, where's that "jaw dropping" emoticon when you need it?:D

I knew the short-track driver point was the most controversial; yet to me, it's a potential high reward for low risk move. I mean, would the OWRS fanbase suffer without Nelson Phillippe or Rodolfo Lavin? I'd add Eric Gordon to the list, too - he's in his 30s, but just won his SIXTH Little 500.

Point is, give all openwheel fan constituencies someone to cheer for, and you'll get more fans. I seem to remember a few USAC-bred drivers (Andretti, Unser, Rutherford) performing well, and adding a lot of interest, to F5000 back in the day.

Of course, what will end up happening is some brokered deal that will embody the worst elements of CART and the IRL...

[scanman]

When I lost interest in the IRL I just stopped paying attention to it, outside of watching Indy and any races that are on while I have nothing else to do.
There yah go...I never had interest, I don't watch the 497.5 and I'm sure as hell not watching any of their crap races any time... :shakehead

[DaveL]

I agree with R-Dub's proposal. Like anything else it needs some fine tuning but that's something reasonable people can iron out.

The biggest thing to me is the lack of reliance on mfg support. Come up with a formula that independent hot rodders can embrace around readily available parts and watch the car counts grow.

Tell ya what, put RW and Kellner in a room to iron out the details of the engine formula and I'd betcha we'd have a winner.

[racer2c]

Nothing will probably ever appease all of us long time fans, but resorting to Tony's Vision 1.0 isn't the answer for this long timer. And by that I mean that I will not subscribe to a series in which any mom and pop shop can build the engines. I would rather see an engine lottery implemented where one engine spec is made by multiple manufactures and the sanctioning body would distribute them via a random drawing on a per race basis. It would motivate the engine development while assuring that no one team would succeed just on the basis of 25 more horses all year. The year end champion would not only conquer multiple track in oval/street/road, but also overcome not drawing the A engine here and there.

I was tar and feathered here not long ago while championing US drivers in Champ Car. It's all about the best they said regardless of nationality. Well again, I would rather see a true Formula racing ladder than trying to force sprint car guys to take on un familiar aerodynamics. This is a long term solution but the end result would yield true Champ Car drivers, not sprint guys who were weaned on front engined roadsters.


The only visionary in the whole lot was Gurney and he wants nothing to do with either entity. I think the powers that be missed the 'rivalry' angle years ago when the interest was still above water. Now only a hand full of us care enough to even talk about it. S****, we probably have discussed this issue a thousands time more than any owner of either side.

I've been very hesitant in recent years to applaud the dissolving of the Indy 500 (not the IRL). Not only for sentimental reasons, but because keeping in mind that if they ever get back together, the 500 would still be the jewel. You can't wish your enemy to die only to befriend him if he lives.
If the rumors are true and Penske and Mario et al broker a reunification, it will come down to the cars for me. I'll stick to my guns on this, I can handle Tony being invisible, I can handle Toyota and Honda being involved, I might be able to even keep from vomiting at the site of Fernandez, but I will never be a fan of crapwagons. It's all about the car to me. Always has been.

[Winston Wolfe]

I agree with R-Dub's proposal. Like anything else it needs some fine tuning but that's something reasonable people can iron out.

Tell ya what, put RW and Kellner in a room to iron out the details of the engine formula and I'd betcha we'd have a winner.

Okay, I'll bite... I've got a bunch of Marriott Rewards Points I'd be willing to donate so that these two can get together and iron something out. Is there a Marriott in Sheboygan, or near "the bunker" in Batavia where Kellner is ? Maybe a Holiday Inn Express somewhere... (these two might come up with some REAL good ideas if they get a good night's rest there...)

Anyone, Anyone ???? Bueller ????

[Brickman]

I agree with R-Dub's proposal. Like anything else it needs some fine tuning but that's something reasonable people can iron out.

The biggest thing to me is the lack of reliance on mfg support. Come up with a formula that independent hot rodders can embrace around readily available parts and watch the car counts grow.

Tell ya what, put RW and Kellner in a room to iron out the details of the engine formula and I'd betcha we'd have a winner.

RW's proposal is grounded in common sense. Especially the engines and costs. I always liked the "independent hot rodders" notion for growing the sport of open wheel. The series that wakes up to common sense proposals will be the one that can survive the long haul.

[racer2c]

RW's proposal is grounded in common sense. Especially the engines and costs. I always liked the "independent hot rodders" notion for growing the sport of open wheel. The series that wakes up to common sense proposals will be the one that can survive the long haul.

Yeah! Let's get rid of the wings while we're at it! Hey, and might as well put the engines up front too!

[Racewriter]

Yeah! Let's get rid of the wings while we're at it! Hey, and might as well put the engines up front too!

Did you read anything besides my handle on that post? :shakehead :shakehead

[DaveL]

Maybe I should clarify.

Where is it written in stone that engines for this sport have to come from the same companies than manufacture passengers cars? Where?

For decades the sport did just fine with people like Leo Goosen, Costin & Duckworth (Cosworth), Judd, Weiss, Yunick, Hermann etc. designing engines that met the specs and testing them on the track against their competitors to see who could build the better mouse trap. There were no worries about contracts to supply engines because independent engineers did the work and sold or leased their products at a profit. And there were no worries about someone not building engines causing 3/4s of the cars on the grid to go down the drain because that's where most of the money came from.

What I want is a set of specs that can be embraced by innovators and risk takers and see the return of mechanical pluralism, without the need on the part of the designers to invest $50 million a year. It can be done.

The road to perdition was paved with mfg money. Looking back, the coming of the auto mfg era was the worse thing that ever happened to the sport. It basically ruined CART and is ruining the IRL.

No, I'm not talking about mom and pop speed shops doing the engines. I'm talking about innovative independent firms creating engines with their own ideas of how to make a car go fast, and teams purchasing or leasing these engines at a profit to the firm. There would be no more wholly owned subsidiaries of engine mfgs on the grid. There would simply be race teams acting as consumers of products.

Sound ancient? It isn't. I'm talking about a model that existed less than 20 years ago.

[Winston Wolfe]

[QUOTE=DaveL]Maybe I should clarify.

Where is it written in stone that engines for this sport have to come from the same companies than manufacture passengers cars? Where?

For decades the sport did just fine with people like Leo Goosen, Costin & Duckworth (Cosworth), Judd, Weiss, Yunick, Hermann etc. designing engines that met the specs and testing them on the track against their competitors to see who could build the better mouse trap. There were no worries about contracts to supply engines because independent engineers did the work and sold or leased their products at a profit. And there were no worries about someone not building engines causing 3/4s of the cars on the grid to go down the drain because that's where most of the money came from.

What I want is a set of specs that can be embraced by innovators and risk takers and see the return of mechanical pluralism, without the need on the part of the designers to invest $50 million a year. It can be done.

The road to perdition was paved with mfg money. Looking back, the coming of the auto mfg era was the worse thing that ever happened to the sport. It basically ruined CART and is ruining the IRL.
[QUOTE]

Dave, I wonder about the statement about the probs with manufacturer money. I thought the glory years of CART were the "just before '95 split" and up through the rats leaving the ship and defecting over to the earl? Wasnt some of the best racing in '92 - '99, at least in my recent memory, and seeing stars come up through the ranks while some of the old guard were stepping out? And the stock block Buicks vs. the turbo Cossies, the occasional Judd, an attempt by Alfa, maybe then Porsche, the Honda's failure in their first attempt at the Brickyard, and the rise and fall of Mercedes, and the early doomed efforts of Toyota, while Ford stayed strong throughout?
The early Lola vs. Reynard battles, and Penske getting involved, then Swift making a run at it?..... Goodyear or Firestone? To me, THIS was CART at its best, with the large variety of tracks and the stars of F1 and yesteryear duking it out with the newcomers, foreigners, young Americans, and ladder system guys...
That's what I thought that made CART great.... the variety, the talent, the manufacturer involvements, and the element of constant change and battle for improvement and the best package.

There will probably never be anything like it again.
I agree that the 4cyl turbo model would be a new direction to attract a newer, younger audience, but when these guys grow up, what do we have then ? The 2.65L turbo formula IS signature CART stuff, so if we want the heritage, keep it.... if we want to forge a NEW CCWS, or OWRS, then it may be time to break with tradition, and go with the small displacement, turbo 4cyl formula and get anyone and everyone to play...

Just my .02 cents... but the offer for the hotel room and the brainstorming session is still there !!! ;)

[Brickman]

Maybe I should clarify.

Where is it written in stone that engines for this sport have to come from the same companies than manufacture passengers cars? Where?

For decades the sport did just fine with people like Leo Goosen, Costin & Duckworth (Cosworth), Judd, Weiss, Yunick, Hermann etc. designing engines that met the specs and testing them on the track against their competitors to see who could build the better mouse trap. There were no worries about contracts to supply engines because independent engineers did the work and sold or leased their products at a profit. And there were no worries about someone not building engines causing 3/4s of the cars on the grid to go down the drain because that's where most of the money came from.

What I want is a set of specs that can be embraced by innovators and risk takers and see the return of mechanical pluralism, without the need on the part of the designers to invest $50 million a year. It can be done.

The road to perdition was paved with mfg money. Looking back, the coming of the auto mfg era was the worse thing that ever happened to the sport. It basically ruined CART and is ruining the IRL.

No, I'm not talking about mom and pop speed shops doing the engines. I'm talking about innovative independent firms creating engines with their own ideas of how to make a car go fast, and teams purchasing or leasing these engines at a profit to the firm. There would be no more wholly owned subsidiaries of engine mfgs on the grid. There would simply be race teams acting as consumers of products.

Sound ancient? It isn't. I'm talking about a model that existed less than 20 years ago.

I agree. I like manufacturers only to the extent that united they could be the makers and shakers of the sport at a fraction of what they waste buying up teams.

I don't think racer2c's random engine swap would work. People like to indentify with personalties as well as the powerplant. I think the Vision 1.0's only redeeming factor was speed shops building independently of manufacturers. DaveL's nostalgic vision would would lower costs and provide a greater number of teams to the sport. It would be facinating to know what a common sense spec would cost to develop.

[DaveL]

Dave, I wonder about the statement about the probs with manufacturer money. I thought the glory years of CART were the "just before '95 split" and up through the rats leaving the ship and defecting over to the earl?


Just before the split, circa 1995, teams were still consumers of products. Mfgs were not funding teams, they were offering product that the teams purchased either in lease or direct ownership form. The day a mfg gave a dollar to team to run their engine rather than the other way around is the day it all went wrong.



Wasnt some of the best racing in '92 - '99, at least in my recent memory, and seeing stars come up through the ranks while some of the old guard were stepping out? And the stock block Buicks vs. the turbo Cossies, the occasional Judd, an attempt by Alfa, maybe then Porsche, the Honda's failure in their first attempt at the Brickyard, and the rise and fall of Mercedes, and the early doomed efforts of Toyota, while Ford stayed strong throughout?


Indeed the racing and compitition was great. But keep in mind that Buick wasn't paying anyone to use their engines, and no team was totally reliant on Cossie bucks to run. Porsche had major sponsorship from Quaker State and later Fosters, and Tasman had sponsorship (LCI) that allowed them to pay for the leases on their Hondas. Tasman would have still had cars on the grid with or without Honda. See the difference?



The early Lola vs. Reynard battles, and Penske getting involved, then Swift making a run at it?..... Goodyear or Firestone? To me, THIS was CART at its best, with the large variety of tracks and the stars of F1 and yesteryear duking it out with the newcomers, foreigners, young Americans, and ladder system guys...
That's what I thought that made CART great.... the variety, the talent, the manufacturer involvements, and the element of constant change and battle for improvement and the best package.


You're right. It was great and a sensible formula for chassis and engines can bring it back. But that "manufacturer involvement" became manufacturer dependence and it got to the point where some teams couldn't exist without a sugar daddy engine mfg. That's where we went wrong and lost our way. And we needn't do a post mortum on what happened when the mfgs left. The mfg dollars gave a false sense of prosperity and security. We patted ourselves on the back when we pointed out how much money in sponsorship they poured in each year either directly or through B2B deals and said, "Look how much support we have".

But like any large multi-national corporation, these mfgs can be fickle and the pledge of never ending support one day can be a press release announcing departure the next, each with same level of false sincerity.

For the sport to prosper it must do so with a model that is NOT reliant on the whims of auto mfgs and their roving eye loyalties. The sport prospered for 8 decades without them. The advent of the commercial auto mfg participant is barely more than a decade old, a basically brand new development that was alien to the sport.

"Neither a borrower nor lender be". Billy Shakespeare knew what he was talking about.

[racer2c]

Did you read anything besides my handle on that post? :shakehead :shakehead

Three times through. Now I know who writes Tony's Visions for him.

:thumdown: :thumdown:

[racer2c]

[QUOTE=Brickman]I agree. I like manufacturers only to the extent that united ...

I don't think racer2c's random engine swap would work. People like to indentify with personalties as well as the powerplant. ...QUOTE]

And how would that stop? If you are a fan of Engine A, you'll be a fan no matter who's car it's in and vice versa with the driver. It's an equalizer formula.

[Brickman]

"Neither a borrower nor lender be". Billy Shakespeare knew what he was talking about.

Both you and Billy got it right.

[Brickman]

[QUOTE=Brickman]I agree. I like manufacturers only to the extent that united ...

I don't think racer2c's random engine swap would work. People like to indentify with personalties as well as the powerplant. ...QUOTE]

And how would that stop? If you are a fan of Engine A, you'll be a fan no matter who's car it's in and vice versa with the driver. It's an equalizer formula.

Some can be a fan of one but not of both. It's not always the case. Pick a driver, pick an engine, pick a chassis, pick a sponsor. Pick your favorites. Besides it would be a pain to know who was running what each weekend.

[Madmaxfan2]

I agree with Dave's comment that the engine builders named are not mom n pop shops. Engine manufacturer'e view racing as a marketing tool, and that is how it is justified to Board of Director, yada,yada. The important thing support for a said racing series by a certain compnay can be pulled during hard times. If that said support happens to be a big part of a racing series income stream, well, that manufacturer has the tools to unduly influence the racing series. We have seen that play out over and over. As from a fan perspective, as I have stated in previous posts, What are your target racing fans? What interests them? The record in open wwheel is varied lot. Some it is the drivers, the teams, the manufacturers, the tracks, and the technology. The task at hand is which group of interests are going to control the series and its make up? Nascar has targeted the drivers and the car brands. Driver challenge, raw speed, and technology are not major factors in Nascar by design. I follow the driver, powertrain technology, track challange ( not track tradition, a subset in which Indyitis applys), chassis manufacturers as my interest points. You can't be all things to all fans, but being only one thing to one type of fan is a failed strategy. The critical combination of factors needs to be identified to make the difference. The last thing needed is for the personal interests of the influential few to be considered in this mix. Both the IRL and the old CART are guilty of this error.

[Winston Wolfe]

Just before the split, circa 1995, teams were still consumers of products. Mfgs were not funding teams, they were offering product that the teams purchased either in lease or direct ownership form. The day a mfg gave a dollar to team to run their engine rather than the other way around is the day it all went wrong.


"Neither a borrower nor lender be". Billy Shakespeare knew what he was talking about.

Dave, thanks for the input. I agree to the extent that CART\OWRS cannot succumb to the same "system" as before, but in order to attract multiple manufacturers\ engine suppliers, there has to be a viable "long term" racing product for them to want to put their names on...
Do we look back at what made CART work back in the "glory days", or do you look to the future to try and predict what "will work", or "should work" in the future of OWRS. We know what does NOT work.... the current EARL formula does not attract an all-around audience, only the indy-centric, while the current OWRS does not really have a formula, but is in a rebuild stage.
Someone from OWRS needs to step in and give a long range plan on how this thing is going to get back on track and seperate itself from the mistakes of the past, and seperate itself from the failing formula of the EARL, and give others a while to digest it, and make tweaks to it, so that it can prosper.