Milwaukee attendance and the oval/diversity thing.

[ChrisB]

OK, May is over and Milwaukee is coming up, might as well get this old debate going...

What's attendance going to be like? Will it be GREAT? Or will it be LOUSY due to dilution of the IRL race later on? On other words, will attendance suffer this weekend because of a reasonable chunk of the crowd buying tickets for the IRL race instead?

And if so.... does this put yet another coffin nail in CWS oval racing?

Is it time to finally get away from this oval/diversity thing and focus on American formula road-racing? I mean, what ovals can CWS possibly run on in which the effort to get fans to show up wouldn't be better spent on some other road-course venue?

Shouldn't CWS be thinking about an American formula car which is specifically designed for road-racing and not the 1995 Indy 500?

It doesn't take a small-nation's GNP to create a car which can match F1's pole times at Montreal. A more highly boosted XFE in a lighter/shorter chassis with more tire and undertray grip could do the trick just nicely. There needs to be a CLEAR diffrence in the performance of a Champcar vs an Indycar on road-circuits, otherwise the IRL will simply cherry-pick the best road venues.

But the first step is that there has to be an admission that CWS oval racing isn't working anymore. CWS needs to make a declaration of "all road-racing, all the time."

[Turn7]

If you put some fat, sticky, sho'nuff tires on the current chassis and cranked up the boost, I think the time comparisions to F1 at Montreal could be greatly narrowed and you would still be able to have the variety.

Wouldn't it be easier to change the rules to allow for increased mechanical and undertray grip at road/street venues than it would be to redesign a chassis?

[TroyM1]

I think OWRS needs more ovals. I think they need somewhere between 5-7 ovals with 2 being fairly high speed. It's too bad the IRL is in bed with ISC and has pretty much shut OWRS out from any of the oval tracks. I wish Michigan, Fontana and St. Louis were still on the schedule.

[oddlycalm]

Wouldn't it be easier to change the rules to allow for increased mechanical and undertray grip at road/street venues than it would be to redesign a chassis?

Chassis revision is, at this point, a pipe dream. Considering the fact that CWS owns the Cosworths, and needs to get substantial service live out of them, cranking up the boost much is probably also off the table until the financial situation stabilizes. This series will be frozen in it's present form for the a couple seasons minimum while it finds it's legs.

oc

[Madmaxfan2]

Yes, Chris you do not change. The correct anwser is still no.

[dando]

All I know is if they stick w/MKE, they need to move the date. Forecast:

Saturday: Partly cloudy, with a high around 59. North wind at 10 mph becoming southeast.

Saturday Night: A 40 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 54. South wind between 10 and 14 mph.

:(

And, yes, I still vote for diversity. Need to have 2-3 ovals on the schedule.

-Kevin

[Steve99]

They could still change the tires to get some more mechanical grip.

Hope the weather holds out for them.

[Andrew Longman]

Chris, I like the idea of a chassis/engine upgrade that makes street racing, especially, more competitive. I don't think any change can be accomplished in the next few years, just for economic reasons though.

I also am reluctant to give up completely on ovals. I actually think they need at least one big oval where they can really stretch their legs and show off the scary top speed of the cars and the b*lls of the drivers. So while I'd like a quicker, better handling car, I don't want to make them such that they are unsafe on ovals.

As for the date, I don't think weather has been a recurring problem in Milwaukee. It was cold last year and the race was postponed as few years ago, but that's it in my memory. Besides, the week after Indy is the traditional date and I like sticking it to the IRL teams that they can't have it.

I will be very interested to see though how crowds compare to last year and to the IRL race. Whether we here want a few ovals is irrelevant if no one shows up at the track.

[Clown]

As I've said before (albeit elsewhere)
The only person to ever declare CART/ChampCar a road racing championship is TG :rolleyes:

[pfc_m_drake]

I absolutely agree, it's time to get away from the whole oval/diversity discussion. It's too easy to have that discussion when there's only 1 oval on the schedule, therefore it's imperative that ChampCar find some additional ovals to include in the schedule.

I was very hopeful that Las Vegas Motor Speedway was going to happen, but that looks doubtful now. Another possibility is going back to Gateway in St. Louis. I don't know what Louden NH is up to outside of their one NASCAR race (and I don't know who owns the track - maybe it's not a realistic possibility).

With ISC dumping Nazareth, who knows what the future for that track holds, but I'd love to see ChampCars back there with a full road course aero package.

Assuming that talk of going overseas isn't just smoke and mirrors, there are still those two ovals in Rockingham England and Germany that are possible.

You get the idea - I think there's plenty of opportunities...but you have to be willing to make them work. It's easy to goto someplace not suited for racing (like the streets of Miami) because you have the potential for success due to that race's 'event' status. And places like Brooklyn, MI and Nazareth PA aren't exactly in great locations. But the reality is that some of the greatest ChampCar races I've ever seen have been on ovals. It's one of the things that made me a fan. I think it's foolish to completely give up...if I want pure road racing, I'll watch F1.

Oh by the way, since we're on the mantra of 1000 lbm cars with 1000 HP, I can't help but notice that F1 is leaning hard towards a 2.4L V-8 that has to last 3 races as their package of choice for the future. Such a formula should provide a substantial reduction in horsepower...

[BNica]

Have always liked the ovals, so long as the horsepower was kept down. The present forrmula IMO, with the detuned engines and lowered boost level, is perfect for running on ovals.

[mueber]

I'm all for ovals if they are profitable. I honestly think it is a mistake to have Milwaukee at night this time of year. Weather was cold last year, forecast is iffy this year. I'm not expecting much.

[oddlycalm]

All I know is if they stick w/MKE, they need to move the date. Forecast: Saturday Night: A 40 percent chance of showers and thunderstorms. Mostly cloudy, with a low around 54. South wind between 10 and 14 mph.

Exactly. The reason to have night races is because it's too damn hot during the day in many locations during the summer. Holding a night race at Milwaukee in early June just for novelty is the kind of decision we can do without. The one oval in the series cannot afford to be a throwaway event, which is what a night race when the weather is typical of the forecast above. When it's 54 degrees, sun is a welcome component. Not to mention how the tires work at that temperature. :shakehead

I would also like to see 2-3 ovals on the schedule, but they have to make money.

oc

[Steve99]

54 is better than 34. Last year was cold!

But 54 is just a number.

[racer2c]

One good thing about a Saturday night race, the ticket buyers already have Sunday off if it rains.

[JT265]

Just to back Chris up some, remove the tunnel blockers and you have a car capable of street racing right now, which would work perfectly until a new formula can be developed and teams can afford to go that route.

Of course, the malcontents at the crackhouse that obsess about our obessesion will still say, (shortly after they post about the irrelevantcy of ChampCar ;) )....

"but there were no on-track passes for the lead!!!" as they did after LB when Paully went from P3 to P1 at T1.

[ChrisB]

OK... as a followup, I watched the race, and the grandstands looked robust. Looking at the attendance threads it could be anywhere from 20k to 38k depending on whom one believes. If the number is closer to 20k, then I could probably make the argument that the ovals are dead, and they should really move on to be RR only... and at least redesign the chassis for that.

From the Spike TV website:

...the most challenging tests in all of motorsports, as its drivers will continue the tradition of having to master every discipline of racing. Challenging street courses, fabled road venues, short ovals and superspeedway...

There is NO QUESTION that the IRL is also going to eventually persue this "diversity is the greatest drivers challenge" mantra too. Also, the IRL *will* eventually redesign their cars away from being oval-only to more dual-purpose. There will be 2 series using cars with similar power/wt ratios claiming to be "challenges of diversity". With no distinct performance advantage to make the case to road-course promoters as to why they are substantially better, and no annual Indy 500 promo blitz or BY400 extra cashflow, CWS will lose that battle. They MUST go whole-heartedly towards roadracing, or watch the IRL pick-off whatever CWS road/street events they want. End game.

[sundaydriver2]

I'm for keeping the diversity. Add Gateway and run it in late August or early September. And, put the German and England ovals back on the schedule.
That plus Milwaukee would be good enough for me.

I would also like to see a Superspeedway added sometime. I like watching a REAL 500 mile race. :thumbup:

[Andrew Longman]

OK... as a followup, I watched the race, and the grandstands looked robust. Looking at the attendance threads it could be anywhere from 20k to 38k depending on whom one believes. If the number is closer to 20k, then I could probably make the argument that the ovals are dead, and they should really move on to be RR only... and at least redesign the chassis for that.

From the Spike TV website:

...the most challenging tests in all of motorsports, as its drivers will continue the tradition of having to master every discipline of racing. Challenging street courses, fabled road venues, short ovals and superspeedway...

There is NO QUESTION that the IRL is also going to eventually persue this "diversity is the greatest drivers challenge" mantra too. Also, the IRL *will* eventually redesign their cars away from being oval-only to more dual-purpose. There will be 2 series using cars with similar power/wt ratios claiming to be "challenges of diversity". With no distinct performance advantage to make the case to road-course promoters as to why they are substantially better, and no annual Indy 500 promo blitz or BY400 extra cashflow, CWS will lose that battle. They MUST go whole-heartedly towards roadracing, or watch the IRL pick-off whatever CWS road/street events they want. End game.

There may be no question the IRL will pursue the diversity thing, but will they succeed? I have my doubt (and admitted biases)

It remains to be seen if the IRL can outdraw CCWS at even Milwaukee, let alone Portland or Mid Ohio.

Do not discount that huge numbers of road racing fans won't touch a TG product. If he initially put pigs on the track, the rest won't give him a second chance.

If he goes road racing next year, it will be with the existing engines and chassis. That will likely stink. If anyone still wants to see IRL road racing in 2006, who will pay for radically new equipment that was made necessary for only a few road races

And the few existing IRL fans aren't too keen on road racing. Some will come for the novelty, as NASCAR fans do at Sonoma and the Glen, but who else exactly is going to come to these road races?

[Methanolandbrats]

Screw the IRL. Champcar should forget about them and concentrate on their product. The Milwaukee race is rebounding strongly. I suspect we'll see the same thing at RA and other venues this year. Real racing will rise to the top by concentrating on improving their product, not by looking over their shoulder and reacting to the IRL.

[sundaydriver2]

There will be 2 series using cars with similar power/wt ratios claiming to be "challenges of diversity". With no distinct performance advantage to make the case to road-course promoters as to why they are substantially better, and no annual Indy 500 promo blitz or BY400 extra cashflow, CWS will lose that battle. They MUST go whole-heartedly towards roadracing, or watch the IRL pick-off whatever CWS road/street events they want. End game.

Chris, you make a lot of assumptions here. The IRL will not be able to just "pick off" any road courses that they want. Mexico is locked up and the Canadian races are very solid in the Champ Car corner as is Surfers. Cleveland already told them to get lost and Long Beach is a race that Champ Car will work extremely hard to keep.

As for losing the battle if/when the Crapwagons turn right, I highly doubt that there is going to be a massive turnout for any road racing event the IRL puts out. They might even do better if they promote as a comedy event.

Peniske is right when he says the two series need to merge. Problem is that Champ Car has the upper hand and I don't think they are going to lose this fight.

The Wreckin' League is running out of excuses and when road racing turns out to be a huge flop, watch for the engine mfg's to start to reconsider their ROI.

[Turn7]

.doh!

[Madmaxfan2]

To think that the IRL will be in a stronger position compared to OWRS IF it changes to a simliar champ car specification is a hugh assumption. The Indy 500 is practically become just another race, and TG's pocketbook is showing strains if the rumor that TG requested State of Indiana funding for USGP is true. I frankly doubt that in the end the EARL will go road racing outside of Watkin's Glen and maybe Sears Point. Those two possible events will be attendence disasters. Only time will tell who really has the stronger hand.

[oddlycalm]

If CCWS is going to continue to run on ovals, Milwaukee showed what needs to be done. Unless there is more than one racing line and unless cars are able to run without going into the wall every time someone 100ft. ahead takes the air off the wing, then they should call it a day on ovals. It doesn't have to be this way, but nobody in charge seems to be capable of doing what is necessary to make the cars work right.

I'm not personally in favor of eliminating ovals. It's just that it's been years since Champ Cars running on short ovals were exciting enough to have much appeal beyond the hardcore audience.

Simply favoring diversity has little bearing on the current economic and medium term tactical situation. As for the comment on adding Gateway, the European ovals or a superspeedway, my quesitons would be why? why? and how? Remember, if the series holds too many events where it loses money, then it will all be over permanently very soon.

While it's a given that the basic chassis will stay the same for the present, there are things no cost/small cost items like tunnel blockers and wings that could be changed to good effect in order to alter how the cars work on various tracks.

In addition, if it becomes a road race only series, they should consider adding a small amount of boost. Leave the revs where they are, but dial in enough boost to get the power up over 800hp (better yet 850hp) for road races. I'm guessing reliability would not suffer unduly.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

I thought Milwaukee actually showed that it is possible to race on short ovals after all.

The lower HP brought the track back to the cars, so to speak. Passing was possible, slow cars were not a huge problem, but the cars had to be driven. Each lap was a little edgy and drivers had to be both craft and daring to find downforce in traffic.

For road courses I like the idea of cranking the boost on road courses. Why not use the advantage that turbos give the series to quickly and easily "tune" the boost to the venue?

[Steve99]

If CCWS is going to continue to run on ovals, Milwaukee showed what needs to be done. Unless there is more than one racing line and unless cars are able to run without going into the wall every time someone 100ft. ahead takes the air off the wing, then they should call it a day on ovals.


Every time? That happened like twice in the race. Michel didn't seem to have any trouble working his way up to third. AJ also.