Market for Ovals?

[Andrew Longman]

Maybe this is an extension of ChrisB post on Milwaukee, but I thought otherwise.

In 1995 there were 17 races on the schedule. Six of them were on ovals (about a third). Four ovals were on 1 mile bull rings (Naz, Milwaukee, Phoenix and NH). Two were on superspeedways (Indy and MIS).

Today the IRL runs 16 races on ovals. CCWS runs one.

In 1995, mixed in with seven street and four road courses the diversity also brought novelty. Phoenix was always interesting because it was a tune up for Indy (later Naz too). Fans got a chance to see which cars and drivers looked promising. Milwaukee piggybacked off the buzz from Indy and offered a chance to see a) if the winner could repeat and b) could he do it in the tight confines of a one mile oval. MIS was the only besides Indy to see the cars really stretch their legs while finding the endurance to run 500 miles.

Compared to 1995 ovals have no novelty. Over the last 4-5 years, 16 IRL races and however many CART oval races on largely similar tracks with largely similar outcomes ("another closest finish in IRL history") have proven monotonous. This is made worse by the now nearly 24/7 coverage of 72 Cup/Busch races per year.

I believe two conclusion can come from this:

-- If TG wants to expand his schedule to include 4 road races in a 20 race schedule, I think he will fail. Even in the heady 1995 timeframe the market said 6-7 OVALS was the market capacity.

-- If Champcar wants for keep/add ovals they should not think of more than 4-6 and I'd stick with as few as one. Before adding a single race a special reason must be found that attract fans to it. Milwaukee's history qualifies. The novelty of American style oval racing in Europe might qualify. And taking the show on the road to Europe is also a little cool even for NA fans who have to stay home. Of course if someone were to ask Champcars to run at Indy that would be special ;) . Phoenix is a traditional track and the locals hold a little special fondness for champcars. MIS and Naz were always special to me, but the last few years I became convinced I was alone in that feeling.

Other than that, no ovals seem that special and most are tied up with ISC anyway.

But I do believe there is a viable market for ovals, we (or at least I) have looked at its size using the wrong benchmark. (or was that the wrong currency ;) )

[Ziggy]

One of the things Milwaukee has going for it besides tradition is its proximity to Indianapolis. The trip to the mile has been a staple of summer trips for generations.

For me personally. Easy drive for the most part. Track lenght is great, as the venue is only one mile, so you can walk around without getting worn out. The track itself is very difficult for drivers, so for me its fun to watch.

It kills me to have this series down to only one oval race. Diversity is the key to Champcar/OWRs. As a lifelong fan of the series, I am not interested in Crapwagons on a road course.

Ziggy

The ISC comments do ring true. They are the devil IMO

[oddlycalm]

Good post AL. You are right on the money with you comments about market saturation for ovals.

I'd like to see Milwaukee stay on the schedule but either restored to a daytime event or move to a warmer time of year. Phoenix is a good early/late season venue, but I don't know about what kind of crowd to expect. Phoenix is a strong motorhead town, so with the right promotion....?

The ISC situation precludes many tracks, and current economics makes European ovals to tough task. Fedex is no longer around to eat the transportation costs an European promoters aren't offering bags of cash for transportation either from what I understand.

I don't want to be a wet blanket, but folks need to have realistic expectations with their "I wants". Look around. You see any drivers outside of PT that can even afford to have a motorhome these days? You see those empty spaces on cars where sponsors names belong? We've had three pretty good events, but we have a long way to go just to see CCWS survive, let alone make changes on cars or take chances on new venues where there isn't a promoter willing to hand over the cash and assume the financial risk.

oc

[jonovision_man]

The ISC situation precludes many tracks, and current economics makes European ovals to tough task. Fedex is no longer around to eat the transportation costs an European promoters aren't offering bags of cash for transportation either from what I understand.


Racing on ovals in Europe is like feeding beef to vegetarians... sure, you might get some down, but it's unlikely to be something they seek long-term.

If they ever revive the Europe strategy, it should start on road circuits F1 is abandoning, not ovals. Just MO... or stay out of Europe altogether and stick to road/street circtuis in emerging markets.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

"I'd like to see Milwaukee stay on the schedule but either restored to a daytime event or move to a warmer time of year."

Why move it? The night race is really fun and the weather saturday was the best possible weather for spectating...just beautiful weather. Sure it might be cold that time of year, but usually it's ok. Screw the summer heat, let the IRL have that.

[Andrew Longman]

Racing on ovals in Europe is like feeding beef to vegetarians... sure, you might get some down, but it's unlikely to be something they seek long-term.

If they ever revive the Europe strategy, it should start on road circuits F1 is abandoning, not ovals. Just MO... or stay out of Europe altogether and stick to road/street circtuis in emerging markets.

jono

Europeans are certainly not naturally drawn to ovals, but comments by Wilson and other ex F1ers about being in total awe of top speed, even on a short oval, has some potential.

Marketed correctly around the stunning speed of the cars AND their ability to road race may sell in Europe. 225 MPH is a novelty there. Sustained fury among 18 cars at that speed can be overwhelming. I know I like it.

I simply am saying that euro-ovals might make sense, but only if the fans find them special and we should never expect to do more than 4-6. Also, don't forget ovals in South America and Asia, but by the same logic, only if they are truly special in some way. Not just another roundy-round.

Champcars lack of dependency on tobacco money is an important advantage in Europe at former F1 tracks. That can't be ignored either and may turn out to be the better reason to go back to Europe.

For sure CCWS is not in a position to take risks or give anything away either. Don't expect them to take an oval on that is not an almost sure success.

[oddlycalm]

Why move it? The night race is really fun and the weather saturday was the best possible weather for spectating...just beautiful weather. Sure it might be cold that time of year, but usually it's ok. Screw the summer heat, let the IRL have that.

My only reason for commenting was in regard to paid attendence. If it will draw a good crowd year after year, I could care less when it's held.

For many years I arranged my travel schedule to attend Milwaukee, but the a combination of Briggs & Stratton leaving the area, the PIA flying has become and personal factors ended my Milwaukee Mile visits. I miss it. Good people, good brats, good beer, and very often a good race.

oc

[Madmaxfan2]

I would like to see Gateway come back. It is a tough little oval with gear changes necessary. As for the crowds, the last time CART ran there 30,000 plus were in attendence. THAT was on a day when there both baseball Cardinals and Rams football home games, in a big medium market, in an area not known as a racing hotbed. When I was living in St. Louis, the SCCA folks in prior years would try a USAC stock race or a Camel GT race at MAR and hope for 10,000. Same when Gateway was a road course when it held it's only Trans-AM and only 6,000 showed up. Given that kind of past, 30,000 plus for a lame duck CART race in September or August when both pro football and baseball teams had home games is outstanding. Given proper promotion and favorable scheduling, like a night race ( yes, Gateway has lights) and 50,00 plus is not unreasonable.

[jonovision_man]

Europeans are certainly not naturally drawn to ovals, but comments by Wilson and other ex F1ers about being in total awe of top speed, even on a short oval, has some potential.

Marketed correctly around the stunning speed of the cars AND their ability to road race may sell in Europe. 225 MPH is a novelty there. Sustained fury among 18 cars at that speed can be overwhelming. I know I like it.

I simply am saying that euro-ovals might make sense, but only if the fans find them special and we should never expect to do more than 4-6. Also, don't forget ovals in South America and Asia, but by the same logic, only if they are truly special in some way. Not just another roundy-round.

Champcars lack of dependency on tobacco money is an important advantage in Europe at former F1 tracks. That can't be ignored either and may turn out to be the better reason to go back to Europe.

For sure CCWS is not in a position to take risks or give anything away either. Don't expect them to take an oval on that is not an almost sure success.

Marketed correctly - when's the last time CART/CCWS marketted anything correctly? :shakehead And that's dealing with countries they should know and understand, let alone Europe.

I just don't see the point, it's hard enough to introduce a new product (Champcars) to new countries without them having to get their heads around ovals.

As F1 pulls race after race out of Europe, there are more opportunities on the road circuits that should be filled with the roar of those Champcar turbo engines. :) Friends of mine in Europe always complain about how expensive F1 is, and how they can't take their families, how inaccessible the drivers/mechanics/etc are...

If they go back to Europe. :)

Ovals are tricky, as you correctly pointed out there are just so many oval races right now. I wouldn't mind seeing them go, I think the chassis could be much better if it wasn't for the comprimises they have to make for oval racing. It could be lighter and smaller, more like F1.

jono

[Ziggy]

I also agree about St Louis. Again, easy to get to, and a tough racetrack. Nice place as well, very modern

[TroyM1]

I'd like to see St. Louis added back to the schedule. It was a nice track and I think the package OWRS is running would be great there. Too bad Michigan can't be brought back. Always a great event. I always tried to attend the ovals within close proximity to Indianapolis.

[Andrew Longman]

jonovision_man

I think we actually agree. My simple point is that don't add ovals unless they are special. I'm only describing the only way European ovals might qualify.
Agreed, given the natural appetite in the market (or lack of), more ready alternatives in Europe, and travel cost, even great marketing and genuine uniqueness might not make the case for European ovals

[Railbird]

First off I enjoy ovals and always thought their inclusion in the old CART schedule is what seperated it from the others. Today however I think the job of selling them is quite a bit more difficult with Nascar pretty much dominating that sector of racing in America.

The following is all imho:

For them to be successfully included in the modern day OWRS schedule they have to be the right tracks on a proper date that can be promoted to the sorounding fan base. At this point in time the only ovals I see that could be scheduled with any hope of success are Milwuakee, Gateway and maybe Louden although I think that would be a tough one.

Although I'm an old short track fan who appreciates racing under the lights I don't think spending the money to light Milwaukee during the first week of June is a particularly good investment. With the weather iffy at best you are always going to have the chance that a bad forcast can kill your crowd, and today the last thing ChampCar needs is to lose any continuity with the locals.

I think the Mile should return to it's normal Sunday afternoon time slot.

Gateway is the one that could be an interesting night time promotion. With an already lit facility and a booming post race night life just accross the river it would seem to me to be an ideal place for a mid-summer (read hot weather) event. Hook up with the gambling folks for rooms, entertainment and cross promotion.

At the very least don't schedule it the same weekend Nascar runs a night show or the Cardinals are playing. I too remember the last date going up against not only baseball but the Rams. Pretty damn good crowd all things considered, but this time let's not have as many things to consider.

Louden is such a stretch that even an optimist would have a hard time figuring how to crack that nut. Maybe a moose hunt thrown in with every ticket?

Or get Jimmy Spencer into Gaston Mazzacane's seat.

As far as the Euro ovals go I think they should only be considered if the promoters are willing to guarantee a profitable trip. Pizzing money away on a Euro adventure is the last thing needed at this point in time.

[Madmaxfan2]

The Bahre brothers are not interested in OW right now. Remember, they were the first venue to drop CART for the IRL and after two years dropped the IRL for even worse attendence. For the record, first IRL schedule in 1996:

Walt Disney World Speedway
Phoenix International Raceway
Indianpolis Motor Speedway
New Hampshire Speedway
then added later
Las Vegas Speedway