Haas to IRL

[Hard Driver]

http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=27793&s=18



Haas has reportedly signed a £9m deal to run in the IRL from next year, although it is unclear whether he will continue to have a presence in Champ Cars. If not, his 20-plus year partnership with movie legend Paul Newman, an outspoken IRL critic, is almost certain to end.


The deal is thought to have been sweetened by both Indianapolis president Tony George and engine supplier Honda.

This sucks

[rabbit]

We survived losing Al Unser Jr.
We survived losing Roger Penske.
We survived losing Chip Ganassi.
We survived losing Michael Andretti.
We survived losing Toyota.
We survived losing Honda.
We survived losing Morris Nunn.
We survived losing Barry Green.
We survived losing Adrian Fernandez.
We survived losing Bobby Rahal.
We'll survive losing Carl Haas.

[G.]

And yet, it still sucks.

Haas said: "I don't know at this point but anything is possible. You know where my heart is, but I'd rather not talk about it."


No, where is Hass' heart at? Is he going gomer with reluctance?

[Methanolandbrats]

He should start carrying that dog rocket around in a different orifice.

[chop456]

This is like going to your final check after chemo treatment and being declared Cancer-free.

Do you really think Newman will leave with him?

[pchall]

http://www.autosport.com/newsitem.asp?id=27793&s=18
This sucks

Actually, it does not suck.

Champcars will be better off without that self-centered SOB. 25+ years of Haas playing dog-in-the-manger with the best and newest parts for the chassis (both Lola and Swift) he's supplying to his on track competition has made me really tired of the old man. The last thing OWRS needs is Haas involved in the 2006 chassis supply. If he's got a ¥en for Indy, let him go there rot in the tar pit with the other dinosaurs.

Newman will split with Haas and Champcar will get the better racer, owner, and sportsman out of the divorce.

[chop456]

And if Haas goes all-EARL, Derrick Walker is sitting on a gold mine.

[RichK]

Haas said: "You know where my heart is, "





How many times have we heard that one?

[JoeBob]

Haas's heart is where it has always been - his wallet.

For some reason, the braintrust at IMS has been convinced that success is just around the corner, if only they had one more thing...

First it was "If only we had a big name driver..."
But, Al Unser, Jr. didn't help.

Then it was, "If only we had a big name team..."
But, Team Penske didn't help.

Then it was "If only we had real manufacturers, and the teams they bring with them..."
But, all the Yen in the world haven't helped.

Then it was, "If only CART would die..."
But, Tony didn't have the money to kill it. (Although he's still trying)

These days, the biggest one is, "If only we had some road races..."

I guess they haven't given up on the CART one either. At least they're giving us lots of proof that they couldn't identify a trend to save their lives. None of the above working isn't a trend, it is all just a coincidence...

[Rob]

Just when we think we've gotten rid of the last yen whore, another owner bats his eyelashes and reaches for his bra strap. :thumdown:

[sundaydriver2]

I wonder if this deal involves only running a team in the Wreckin' League??

[pchall]

And if Haas goes all-EARL, Derrick Walker is sitting on a gold mine.

With old Reynard plans and no production capacity of his own? I think he is only sitting on the shaft. ;)

[chop456]

With old Reynard plans and no production capacity of his own? I think he is only sitting on the shaft. ;)

I thought he got the whole deal, not just the plans(?) My bad.

[Sean O'Gorman]

25+ years of Haas playing dog-in-the-manger with the best and newest parts for the chassis (both Lola and Swift) he's supplying to his on track competition has made me really tired of the old man.

Since when have you been an advocate of seeing all teams have access to the same parts?

[racer2c]

So much for olive branches coming from the IRL. The payoff continues. Newman will partner up with someone else or soldier on alone. It won't affect car count. I thought we had gotten rid of the Indy-centrics, but I always had a sneaking suspicion about Carl. Ce Le Vie.

[Brickman]

You know where his heart is, you know where his pocketbook is. No surprise.

However if Newman left, that would be a shocker. :eek: Isn't going to happen though.

[racer2c]

Sorry Seabass and Brunobaby, you're tainted drivers now. Bail while you can!
Go RHR!

[fourrunner]

Considering these owners ages and existing & potential health problems, I'm figuring the IRL is where you go before you die!! ;)

The IRL = "Elephants Graveyard"

[mueber]

And yet, it still sucks.

Haas said: "I don't know at this point but anything is possible. You know where my heart is, but I'd rather not talk about it."


No, where is Hass' heart at? Is he going gomer with reluctance?

His heart is in his wallet, and it's saying, "Gee Carl, there aren't enough millions in here, so let's add your name to the list of those who screwed the fans who made us."

Hey Carl, don't let the screen door hit you in the wallet on our way out.

[nz_climber]

so now we can add FCH to the list?? :gomer:

[Michaelhatesfans]

Tony George is a dolt. Champ Car fans won't follow, and how are the hardcore IRL fans going to feel about Haas being paid over ten million dollars to race while the original teams and drivers are told that "they need to step up" if they want to compete? Friggin moron.

[P1]

I'm willing to bet that old Carl misses the old gang sitting around the board room smoking stogies and congratulaing themselves on what a brilliant lot they are, now that he's about the only old guardian left. And, maybe he's a greedy as the other Honda and Toy whores. I say let him go so we won't have this debate and worry, and the sooner he announces the better so that OWRS can compensate. We have Paul - don't need any more pitlane shots of Carl and his cigar...

[Clown]

A-hole :shakehead

[fourrunner]

Yeah I'm LMAO remembering "The Truth" interview with Chip Ganassi telling all the other IRL Teams that can't keep up to get it together and Get SPONSORS just like HE HAS TO DO ...

Then you read that Carl Haas is "Bribed" to switch over with $15 million ... Boy he really had to work hard for that money!!

Boy the Original IRL Teams are sure suckers !! :rofl:

I remember in "Schindlers List" , the scene in "The Ghetto" in Poland where the Shylocks would sit in the cars with the Germans double dealing against their own people for a more comfortable life for themselves!

Owners like Haas while saying there heart is with Champ Car, but always seem to have a price to switch loyalties to be more comfortable.

I figure Carl is a pretty Rich Guy and at 77 entering the twilight of his life ..
To "Sellout" so close to the finish line seems so sad !!

I shook hands with him in the lobby of the Crowne Plaza last year in Toronto... He pretty much smelled like a box of stale Cigars !

I say this with love! ;)

Oh, and if Carl isn't switching over to the IRL and this is all just a Nasty Rumor, then please completely disregard everything I've said! :thumbup:

But then again if it wasn't true, wouldn't he just come out and say so??

[Ed_Severson]

"But then again if it wasn't true, wouldn't he just come out and say so!!"

He will, whether it's true or not.

They all do.

[Brickman]

Oh, and if Carl isn't switching over to the IRL and this is all just a Nasty Rumor, then please completely disregard everything I've said! :thumbup:



:thumbup:

Haas always had an eye on the Honda money. The purpose of running in the 500 was just to prove he was worthy. I doubt TG is paying out anything, he has a full field for the season and could buy "fill teams" for Indy 2005 if needed. Newman should take up the slack in Champ Car, at least there is no reason for him not to. Just the same old news but a different year.

[Madmaxfan2]

Newman will leave Haas if this is true. Remember that Newman was not that interested in a team with Haas until Mario's name as a driver was mentioned. Newman does not need Haas for his self satisfaction. Newman has made known were his interests and loyalities lie. As for Lola going into it, Why? Is the $$$ that good?

[jonovision_man]

We survived losing Al Unser Jr.
We survived losing Roger Penske.
We survived losing Chip Ganassi.
We survived losing Michael Andretti.
We survived losing Toyota.
We survived losing Honda.
We survived losing Morris Nunn.
We survived losing Barry Green.
We survived losing Adrian Fernandez.
We survived losing Bobby Rahal.
We'll survive losing Carl Haas.

Yeah, but wouldn't "we" be a hell of a lot better WITH all those guys?

This is another loss for Champcars. :thumdown: :(

[cart7]

IF.. he goes, so be it. I can't think of a more self-serving A-hole than Carl Haas. I never liked the guy and was only interested in the team due to Mario and Paul Newman.

[nrc]

Yeah, but wouldn't "we" be a hell of a lot better WITH all those guys?

This is another loss for Champcars. :thumdown: :(

Can we have those guys and not have the malignancy that nearly killed our series? Maybe some of them. At the very center of that pustulant mass of necrotic tissue you'll find the tumor that is Honda and Toyota's "win at any cost" rivalry. Cut that out and maybe once you drain the wound there will be something on that list worth saving.

[racer2c]

...


I figure Carl is a pretty Rich Guy and at 77 entering the twilight of his life ..
To "Sellout" so close to the finish line seems so sad !!





Good post fourrunner. That brings to mind that allot of these fat cats are knockingon heavens door. I'm sure the lure of a return to Indy, along with a big fat bag of yen is appealing to these guys. It would surprise me to see PN drink the Kool-Aid, but it wouldn't surprise me to see him go kicking and screaming. If that makes sense.

[Fitti Fan]

I knew there was a reason I didn't want a picture with him.

Mr. Newman, as you requested, I'm yelling real loud now!!!!!!!

[Lizzerd]

No mention of Kermit or Bruno. Does Haas "own" them? Anybody know what their contracts are?

No mention of McD's or Pacificare. I can't help but think that McD is aligned with PN. If Haas leaving is for real and Paul stays in Champ Car, who will the sponsors go with?

I wanna know!

[Robstar]

Maybe years of smoking those cigars has clouded his judgement...

[Clown]

Screw Haas, let him go to the circle league.
At least it will un-taint Paul Newman :p

[Skater_36]

No mention of Kermit or Bruno. Does Haas "own" them? Anybody know what their contracts are?

No mention of McD's or Pacificare. I can't help but think that McD is aligned with PN. If Haas leaving is for real and Paul stays in Champ Car, who will the sponsors go with?

I wanna know!

I may be wrong but doesn't McDonalds offer Newman's Own dressing on its salads? I doubt they joined on because of Carl Haas. There's been a rumor about Paul Newman bringing Tom Cruise on board as a partner so maybe that is going to happen now.

[jonovision_man]

Everyone who leaves is suddenly an "A-HOLE", what else is new. :rolleyes:

These guys have businesses to run, easy to take pot shots sitting on these Internet boards when it's not your money on the line. How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?

Champcars aren't the great business opportunity they once were, in fact quite the opposite, and I don't blame these guys for leaving, especially the ones who stuck it out this long.

[JT265]

Everyone who leaves is suddenly an "A-HOLE", what else is new. :rolleyes:

These guys have businesses to run, easy to take pot shots sitting on these Internet boards when it's not your money on the line. How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?

Champcars aren't the great business opportunity they once were, in fact quite the opposite, and I don't blame these guys for leaving, especially the ones who stuck it out this long.


Your point?

[cart7]

Everyone who leaves is suddenly an "A-HOLE", what else is new. :rolleyes:

These guys have businesses to run, easy to take pot shots sitting on these Internet boards when it's not your money on the line. How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?

Champcars aren't the great business opportunity they once were, in fact quite the opposite, and I don't blame these guys for leaving, especially the ones who stuck it out this long.
No, CH was an A-hole before this.

[racer2c]

Everyone who leaves is suddenly an "A-HOLE", what else is new. :rolleyes:

These guys have businesses to run, easy to take pot shots sitting on these Internet boards when it's not your money on the line. How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?

Champcars aren't the great business opportunity they once were, in fact quite the opposite, and I don't blame these guys for leaving, especially the ones who stuck it out this long.

I'd like to meet the man ever said to himself, "I'm going to start an open wheel racing team so I can get rich!".

It's not that what you say is wrong per se, but rather, we Champ Car fans boo the guys who could have done much, much more for the sport, and then turn their back when the carrot is dangled in front of their face. It's called integrity, and while they have a business to run, we have a series to support by being fans. There is nothing wrong with giving Carl a big raspberry thumbs down to express our disdain for going to the competition.

[nrc]

These guys have businesses to run, easy to take pot shots sitting on these Internet boards when it's not your money on the line. How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?

Bobby Rahal threw away a paying sponsor in order to take Honda's blood money. He's an ***hole because he and the other short-sighted, money-grubbing back-stabbers are chasing their own short-term financial gain to the detriment of the sport as a whole. They are s***ting where they eat and even a dog knows better.

SomedayToyota and Honda will get tired of spending millions to beat each other in a series nobody cares about with no real return on their investment. Then the fallout from the Tony and the owner's blinkered pursuit power and money will truly be upon them.

As for the drivers, that's a different issue. Clearly the days are past where every driver in the IRL is a wanker. There are some talented drivers there. Not all of them had a lot of choice in their destination, but some of them are there because they preferred a fat paycheck for kissing Honda and Toyota's butt to a thinner one for really proving their ability.

If they play it straight and tell us they're working for a living, fine. But if they want to act like they're really doing something worthwhile why shouldn't they be mocked and derided for making fools of themselves? It's like making fun of Orson Wells for selling bad wine or John Houseman for pushing Volvos. They're all either wankers, "IRL Freaks" or at a minimum they're supporting something that should be beneath them.

[KLang]

How many millions do you expect a guy to sacrifice for so little gain, when so few are watching?


I find it hard to believe that Haas has spent a dime of his own money.

[Forza Lancia]

We can get along without Carl Haas, but it would be a travesty if he takes Bourdais and Junqueira with him. These guys are ChampCars two best drivers (along with Tracy) and they belong in road-racing. Seeing them cruising around the IRL's endless parade of look-alike oval tracks would be like seeing Paul Newman switching from films to situation comedies.

[Brickman]

Bobby Rahal threw away a paying sponsor in order to take Honda's blood money. He's an ***hole because he and the other short-sighted, money-grubbing back-stabbers are chasing their own short-term financial gain to the detriment of the sport as a whole.

Yep



As for the drivers, that's a different issue. Clearly the days are past where every driver in the IRL is a wanker. There are some talented drivers there. Not all of them had a lot of choice in their destination, but some of them are there because they preferred a fat paycheck for kissing Honda and Toyota's butt to a thinner one for really proving their ability.


Thinner? Nearly nonexistant.

[nrc]

Yep



Thinner? Nearly nonexistant.

You got figures?

[jonovision_man]

I'd like to meet the man ever said to himself, "I'm going to start an open wheel racing team so I can get rich!".

It's not that what you say is wrong per se, but rather, we Champ Car fans boo the guys who could have done much, much more for the sport, and then turn their back when the carrot is dangled in front of their face. It's called integrity, and while they have a business to run, we have a series to support by being fans. There is nothing wrong with giving Carl a big raspberry thumbs down to express our disdain for going to the competition.

It's not just Carl, it's almost every owner CART had... I was willing to accept that Penske was an "A-HOLE", but there's obviously a compelling business reason for the departures.

Praise the guys who stayed for their integrity, absolutely, they deserve it. I don't think those that left deserve scorn, though.

(BTW - has Haas put any of his own money in? Maybe not, but he's given up millions by not taking advantage of opportunities to jump in the past.)

[jonovision_man]

My last comment on the subject:

http://www.newman-haas.com/team_highlights_1982_1990.html
http://www.newman-haas.com/team_highlights_1991_1995.html
http://www.newman-haas.com/team_highlights_1996_2000.html
http://www.newman-haas.com/team_highlights_2001_2004.html

Those are a lot of good times they brought us. Thanks.

[RaceGrrl]

They left for money. That's the compelling reason to walk away from the series that made them, and the series that they helped destroy. When they drink the koolaid and talk about how great "Indystyle" racing is, and refuse to even say the word CART, they do not deserve my respect. They don't respect the series that made them, and they don't respect the fans who put money in their pockets and made them famous. They certainly don't deserve MY respect for that.

[jonovision_man]

They left for money. That's the compelling reason to walk away from the series that made them, and the series that they helped destroy. When they drink the koolaid and talk about how great "Indystyle" racing is, and refuse to even say the word CART, they do not deserve my respect. They don't respect the series that made them, and they don't respect the fans who put money in their pockets and made them famous. They certainly don't deserve MY respect for that.

It's a business.

[KLang]

I was willing to accept that Penske was an "A-HOLE", but there's obviously a compelling business reason for the departures.


I've never believed that Marlboro forced Penske to go earling. IMO Penske just has an incurable case of indyitis.

[RichK]

Praise the guys who stayed for their integrity, absolutely, they deserve it. I don't think those that left deserve scorn, though.

If they left & trashed what made them who they are, they deserve plenty of scorn.


It's a business.

It's a business where the money trail leads to me, the fan. There aren't many fans of the IRL, which is why the IRL business "plan" will fail when the free Yen stops flowing.

[nrc]

It's a business.

If I want to follow a business I'll read the Wall Street Journal. If they want to excuse everything with "it's a business" they need to get their heads out of their asses and recognize who ultimately pays the bills. Yes, racing will be around with or without fans - it has always been a rich man's diversion. But there won't be nearly as many Newells in the paddock.

[oddlycalm]

It's not just Carl, it's almost every owner CART had... I was willing to accept that Penske was an "A-HOLE", but there's obviously a compelling business reason for the departures.

Praise the guys who stayed for their integrity, absolutely, they deserve it. I don't think those that left deserve scorn, though.

(BTW - has Haas put any of his own money in? Maybe not, but he's given up millions by not taking advantage of opportunities to jump in the past.)

Sorry pal, Haas was one not only one of a couple human speed bumps on the CART board that habitually stood in the way of spending a dime or two on marketing the series, or making any other improvements that would cost money. He cashed in his chips long ago a did very nicely on the stock transaction. He hasn't given up anything, far from it.

Aside from that he's also been the dealer for the majority of the cars in the series, and marked up every single chassis sold. The chassis specs are static for the forseeable future, so no new car sales for Karl, spare parts only. Bottom line is that Haas has squeezed every nickel he could out of Champ Car racing, and now there are no more nickels to be had, so he's moving on.

oc

[jonovision_man]

Sorry pal, Haas was one not only one of a couple human speed bumps on the CART board that habitually stood in the way of spending a dime or two on marketing the series, or making any other improvements that would cost money. He cashed in his chips long ago a did very nicely on the stock transaction. He hasn't given up anything, far from it.

Aside from that he's also been the dealer for the majority of the cars in the series, and marked up every single chassis sold. The chassis specs are static for the forseeable future, so no new car sales for Karl, spare parts only. Bottom line is that Haas has squeezed every nickel he could out of Champ Car racing, and now there are no more nickels to be had, so he's moving on.

oc

C'mon, there's a story about every single owner whose left... Rahal, Penske, Ganassi, Fernandez, Andretti, Haas, Penske, etc., etc., etc. It's hard to swallow, considering those guys WERE CART, and we all loved it (and them) when they were here.

Sure they have egos, this is racing, it's full of egos. And sure they're following their wallets, who in their right mind throws millions away?

The situation CART/CCWS has been in for the last few years is what drove these guys away.

I'm not saying they're heros or anything, but I don't expect altruism from them... racing isn't the food bank, charity should not be expected.

[RichK]

The situation CART/CCWS has been in for the last few years is what drove these guys away.



You weren't paying attention back then. They CREATED the situation, then left for the money. Nothing "drove them away".

[mueber]

You weren't paying attention back then. They CREATED the situation, then left for the money. Nothing "drove them away".

Exactly. Set the house of fire and complain that you have to move.

These people are scoundrels, nothing more, nothing less, nothing else.

[RTKar]

Once we accept the fact that people in the racing business tend to be whores, it's easier to accept the sport itself. Beg, borrow, cheat, steal, and lie, it's all part of being in the business. Nothing in any sport surprises me any more. It's a shame though, that the folks that brought us CART are the ones that took it down.

[Railbird]

If you want loyalty buy a dog...

I don't give a damn one way or the other about Haas but what about the Lola connection?

Is Haas the only possible pipeline?

If so I would think Walker is indeed sitting pretty.

I believe he purchases the rights to the Reynard designs and the available rigs and jigs. Finding someone to make a production run on tubs and other cf bits shouldn't be a problem but this is an issue that needs to be adressed sooner rather than later.

Funny Haas story:


You know that wierd prayer thing he does on his cars pre-race?

On the grid at Indy one year he was stumbling around and mistook another red car for one of his and started with the mumbo jumbo on it. That crew immediaitely ran him off a proceeded to wipe the car down like it had just flown through a s**** storm.

Some of these guys I've hated to see leave.

Haas ain't one of them.

[jonovision_man]

If you want loyalty buy a dog...


:)

BTW - the owners weren't intentionally bringing CART down, they were doing what they thought was best for their teams and for the series. They were just wrong, it was a comedy of errors.

The analogy "Set the house of fire and complain that you have to move" only fits if you add they they set it on fire with the welding torch they were using to try fix it...

[Rogue Leader]

:)

BTW - the owners weren't intentionally bringing CART down, they were doing what they thought was best for their teams and for the series. They were just wrong, it was a comedy of errors.

The analogy "Set the house of fire and complain that you have to move" only fits if you add they they set it on fire with the welding torch they were using to try fix it...


yes I agree... I believe if you look up Clusterf**** in the dictionary you will see "CART" under one of the examples...

That said... as the old saying goes "how do you make a small fortune in racing??? Start with a large one!"

[Railbird]

the owners weren't intentionally bringing CART down,

imo you're way wrong there.

Money changers like Nunn and Walker draw a pass from me

but the manufacture whores have all been guilty of doin what they can to hasten the demise of what suddenly became the competing series.

and yes, much of it stemmed from the cluster f**** that CART management had become.

Now lets look back at who played a big part in creating that management system....

[Rogue Leader]

Now lets look back at who played a big part in creating that management system....

Roger Penske!

[oddlycalm]

If you want loyalty buy a dog...
Yup, and if you ever find yourself the owner of a pet weasel, I can suggest a few appropriate names for it.... ;)



Some of these guys I've hated to see leave. Haas ain't one of them.

Boy, howdy.


oc

[jonovision_man]

the owners weren't intentionally bringing CART down,

imo you're way wrong there.

Money changers like Nunn and Walker draw a pass from me

but the manufacture whores have all been guilty of doin what they can to hasten the demise of what suddenly became the competing series.

and yes, much of it stemmed from the cluster f**** that CART management had become.

Now lets look back at who played a big part in creating that management system....

Now that they're gone, sure. Like you said it's the competition now.

[JT265]

Now that they're gone, sure. Like you said it's the competition now.

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but it's been my experience over the years that when the intention is to repeatedly spout off like you know what you are speaking of, it's best to actually know what you're talking about.

Just off the top of my head, let's try this....

2001 - Pimpski forces the Delaware board to vote in the 3.5 Crapwagon motor, under threat of bailing to Earl.....and after he coerces the vote, guess what??

He left anyway.

2002 - Gan( i )si follows the Yoda teat, of which he had already sucked something well north of 25 mil on to switch from Honda and spends the rest of the season spreading ill-will throughout the paddock, some of which is leaked to the press, including a rather violent Elkhart Lake encounter with your hometown fave.

2002- Whiney lite - You know, the "My hearts in CART, but my ass is owned by the yen" guy? See the above paragraph. And his partner Kim Green was even worse in the paddock. Do you remember the muzzle and the $300,000 fine they levied on PT for actually trying to voice his opinion about the underhanded crap that these bastards were doing?

2004 - Adrian hung his ass out like a Jarvis Street whore until the last minute looking for KalkhovenBucks, and then crapped on the series that made him, by waiting until the 11th hour to make his move, losing the bulk of Tecate dough in the process.

2004 - Booby Ray Hole. Now this one is curious, from a "business" perspective. Apparently running in earl is free, 'cause we can do it without sponsors huh? In this market, although this is Michel's and his dad's deal, no one gives up a sponsor that actually pays the bills.

And lastly, please give up this "it's business" crap. I'm standing real close to people that have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars (millions?) on this sport and this series, and if anyone needs to use the "it's business" excuse, maybe they should try real estate developing.

[DaveL]

Great post JT265 :thumbup:

The facts surrounding the forcing of the IRL Crapmotors down the throat of CART is all I need to know about what the motives of these whores was. And being a whore is "just business" too, but a whore none the less.
They cared about themselves first and foremost, just like they had since 1979 and thought nothing of the long term impact on the series or what good their self-centered decisions had on the health of CART.

Don't forget kids, it was Roger Penske who picked who got the Chevies while at the same time did everything in his considerable power to make sure the Buicks couldn't get 10 lousy inches of boost.

Ooh yeah, always thinking about the good of the sport. That's Pimpske for ya :shakehead

[Railbird]

flag to flag JT

good work

[fourrunner]

Thanks JT :thumbup:

Pimpki sells his interests in his tracks to ISC ... Then feigns "Mock Outrage" at CART for abandoning those tracks, when in reality ISC forced CART out !

PIMPSKI DAY at Nazareth to honor him turned out to be a Farce of forced applause for someone who had already decided where he was going the following year. Mocking every EVERY Loyal CART Fan in the stands .

While Craig Rust who's brain most represents his last name... says that ISC must make their decisions based on the dollars.. What a "Business Genius" he is. Nazareth to close!! :rofl:

[jonovision_man]

Don't take this the wrong way or anything, but it's been my experience over the years that when the intention is to repeatedly spout off like you know what you are speaking of, it's best to actually know what you're talking about.

Just off the top of my head, let's try this....

2001 - Pimpski forces the Delaware board to vote in the 3.5 Crapwagon motor, under threat of bailing to Earl.....and after he coerces the vote, guess what??

He left anyway.

2002 - Gan( i )si follows the Yoda teat, of which he had already sucked something well north of 25 mil on to switch from Honda and spends the rest of the season spreading ill-will throughout the paddock, some of which is leaked to the press, including a rather violent Elkhart Lake encounter with your hometown fave.

2002- Whiney lite - You know, the "My hearts in CART, but my ass is owned by the yen" guy? See the above paragraph. And his partner Kim Green was even worse in the paddock. Do you remember the muzzle and the $300,000 fine they levied on PT for actually trying to voice his opinion about the underhanded crap that these bastards were doing?

2004 - Adrian hung his ass out like a Jarvis Street whore until the last minute looking for KalkhovenBucks, and then crapped on the series that made him, by waiting until the 11th hour to make his move, losing the bulk of Tecate dough in the process.

2004 - Booby Ray Hole. Now this one is curious, from a "business" perspective. Apparently running in earl is free, 'cause we can do it without sponsors huh? In this market, although this is Michel's and his dad's deal, no one gives up a sponsor that actually pays the bills.

And lastly, please give up this "it's business" crap. I'm standing real close to people that have wasted hundreds of thousands of dollars (millions?) on this sport and this series, and if anyone needs to use the "it's business" excuse, maybe they should try real estate developing.

Taking TG/Honda/Toyota's money is a legitimate business decision, as legitimate as Pookfare or any other. Want to talk about no sponsors, Jimmy? Ryan? Pick a Coyne car, any Coyne car? You can't tell me CART makes a huge amount of business (sorry) sense right now if attracting sponsors is your goal.

Like I said, these guys aren't altruists by any stretch, they're business (sorry) men making business (sorry) decisions, and some of them stink for us fans of Champcars. Maybe if there were more of us that would matter more from a business (sorry) perspective to someone.

[Spicoli]

Jono - you keep calling it business.

In what business do you whore out all your principles, turn your back on your customers, talk schit about your past, do your best to bury the organization that helped make you what you are today, endanger the lives of your employees, and talk smack and lies behind everyone's back?

Yeah.


The IRL. :shakehead

[RTKar]

Jono - you keep calling it business.

In what business do you whore out all your principles, turn your back on your customers, talk schit about your past, do your best to bury the organization that helped make you what you are today, endanger the lives of your employees, and talk smack and lies behind everyone's back?

Yeah.


The IRL. :shakehead


...the organization you helped create too, not to mention a North American road racing tradition you helped establish not only as an owner but as a driver (aka Penske,Haas, Rahal) that you now abandon for a cookie cutter all oval league where true racing talent matters so much less than from where you came....money talks but principles account for something too.

[jonovision_man]

Jono - you keep calling it business.

In what business do you whore out all your principles, turn your back on your customers, talk schit about your past, do your best to bury the organization that helped make you what you are today, endanger the lives of your employees, and talk smack and lies behind everyone's back?

Yeah.


The IRL. :shakehead

:)

It's dirty and ugly, no doubt, and I'm sure TG is largely responsible for that.

I just don't think the owners had a secret agenda a long time ago to ruin CART and be stuck with TG, it doesn't add up, they've really lost a lot of control over their teams, the series, and many of them aren't doing what they love, road racing.

The blame lies on TG, Honda and Toyota, and Penske IMO. Many of the other owners were compelled to follow, I don't blame them much if at all.

[racer2c]

Jono - you keep calling it business.

In what business do you whore out all your principles, turn your back on your customers, talk schit about your past, do your best to bury the organization that helped make you what you are today, endanger the lives of your employees, and talk smack and lies behind everyone's back?

Yeah.


The IRL. :shakehead

My favorite post of the year! You summed it all up in a couple of sentences. Bravo! :thumbup:

[Spicoli]

:)

It's dirty and ugly, no doubt, and I'm sure TG is largely responsible for that.

I just don't think the owners had a secret agenda a long time ago to ruin CART and be stuck with TG, it doesn't add up, they've really lost a lot of control over their teams, the series, and many of them aren't doing what they love, road racing.

The blame lies on TG, Honda and Toyota, and Penske IMO. Many of the other owners were compelled to follow, I don't blame them much if at all.

If you really want to get to the root of the problem - its that "Cast" of owners. When Rahole took the CART helm, its sounded the death of CART. HE let Yoda and Homoco take over. Between the two of them, they had their fingers in everything CART had - teams, circuits/races, driver's contracts, etc etc... CART got lazy and just took the easy money. People who were at CART at that time will tell you Boooby Rahole was the worst person to run the company - EVER. He is nothing but a leach. He is a whore whose ass is available to the highest bidder. He is a shameless maggot who would sell his momma for a buck. He's banging a girl who is old enough to be his daughter.

When Rahole left, the new folks saw what had been done, and knew it was bad. Yoda & Homoco effectively ran the series, because they had their leverage and influence in every facet of the sport. No other sponsor was willing to throw their money around like the YenBoys. So they all left. So why does it surprise us that they are doing it to EARL now? It doesn't surprise me at all. TG isn't a smart guy. He's being told what to do by Lee White - not directly - but indirectly in the form of sponsor bucks and driver contracts. TG will - one day - be faced with that cold hard reality when these YenBoys decide they've had enough of the EARL. Only difference between Yen leaving CART and Yen leaving EARL - is that there are no fans left in EARL. The gomers packed up over the last year and more leave after every race. ChampCar has and will retain its fans. Look around today.

The Mikey's Ganastys Penskes Nunns and Raholes of the sport could care less about you and me, or even the gomers. Doesn't bother fat Chip one bit that nobody is watching. He's making millions and will race bathtubs if he gets paid enough. So - ya - they DO have some pretty serious personality and character flaws.

But like you said - its just business.

[lobstermint]

"Its just buisness" is just an excuse for doing things that are immoral.

[pineapple]

Sounds like the Enron model of "un"doing [a] business.

Nice posts JT and Spicoli. Makes one really leery about keeping T & H and their whores around if this supposed "reunification" were to come about. It'd be back to "business" as usual; deja vu all over again.

[mueber]

The owners always had too much power; it was the fundamental shortcoming of the organization, and it is the cause of its demise. The team owners ran the organization for the short-term benefit of their teams rather than looking out for the long-term benefit of the sport. I’m sure we can easily start an extensive list of examples. I’ll start with Carl Haas saving all the upgrades to Lolas for himself rather than selling them to other teams. I’ll add Penske’s persuading the outlawing of carbon fiber chassis after Porsche came up with it only to reinstate it when he had his ready. I am sure there are many more.

Having said all that, and as I have said before, you would think that all these brilliant "businessmen" would see the long-term benefit of putting the fans first and being good stewards of the sport. That would be the wise thing to do. But instead of wisdom, we got greed, avarice, narcissism, shortsightedness and enough hypocrisy to fill the Pacific Ocean. No amount of rationalization can hide the fact that these guys are jerks who do not deserve our respect or our business.

[jonovision_man]

The owners always had too much power; it was the fundamental shortcoming of the organization, and it is the cause of its demise. The team owners ran the organization for the short-term benefit of their teams rather than looking out for the long-term benefit of the sport. I’m sure we can easily start an extensive list of examples. I’ll start with Carl Haas saving all the upgrades to Lolas for himself rather than selling them to other teams. I’ll add Penske’s persuading the outlawing of carbon fiber chassis after Porsche came up with it only to reinstate it when he had his ready. I am sure there are many more..

I don't dispute that, in fact that's one of the things I like about Bernie (err... Max) running F1, the decisions are coming from someone with a broader view.

Were they being malicious, though? They were obviously fighting for their teams, it's competitive between everyone out there. They didn't keep their eye on the big picture, that's a fair criticism, and I'm sure as they look back they can probably see their errors.

I still think they were just that - mistakes - compounded by mismanagement.

[DaveL]

I don't dispute that, in fact that's one of the things Were they being malicious, though? They were obviously fighting for their teams, it's competitive between everyone out there. They didn't keep their eye on the big picture, that's a fair criticism, and I'm sure as they look back they can probably see their errors.

I still think they were just that - mistakes - compounded by mismanagement.

Oh please. Even if the intent wasn't malicious the outcome was and they knew exactly what they were doing. It was not a "mistake" by Pimpske, Fatassi and the rest of the Fifth Column. "Fighting for their teams"? Hardly. Their teams would have existed regardless. And if you're one of the Fifth Column you don't see it as an "error". These guys have never cared about anyone but themselves. If going to the Earl benefitted them by putting yen in their already deep pockets, they were going to go. If CART went under as a result, tough noogies as far as they were concerned. The Fifth Column got their money. Screw everyone who got hurt as a result.

At some point it will finally sink in to you that the Fifth Column never did a damn thing to benefit the sport as a whole, only what was of benefit to themselves, and fans are simply peons to suck money out of and are considered disposable once they got what they wanted out of them. Do you think for a second that Floyd loses a wink of sleep thinking about the CART fans and how royally screwed they were by him chasing the Toyotabucks? If you believe that, I have bridge in Brooklyn I can get you a good price on. When in the history of his team did Penske do something for the good of the sport, rather than for the good of Roger Penske? Was it when he picked who got the Chevy Illmores and refused to lease to any team with a check (back when teams had to pay for engines)? Was it when he made sure the Buicks wouldn't be remotely competitive? Was it when he wouldn't let Porsche use a carbon fibre chassis until he got his? When?

If you're Roger Penske, these are NOT errors in any way. All of these things benefetted him and hurt the sport. He only cared about what benefits him. The sport has always been a means to an ends. And if something benefitted him, regardless of what it did to the sport, it was the right thing to do in Penske's eye.

Wake up and see reality. These guys basically ran CART for all intents and purposes. And when CART was no longer was a usefull means to their own personal ends they discarded it and moved on to something else. It's a tough thing to be a John & a whore at the same time, but these guys found a way to do it.

[jonovision_man]

Wake up and see reality. These guys basically ran CART for all intents and purposes. And when CART was no longer was a usefull means to their own personal ends they discarded it and moved on to something else. It's a tough thing to be a John & a whore at the same time, but these guys found a way to do it.

What would be their motivation, to take a series that they basically owned, controlled, with plenty of money (at the time) - and ruin it all to instead be under TG's thumb?

It wasn't intentional, they screwed up, they lost the manufacturers and then were stuck with the IRL.

[Brickman]

Oh please. Even if the intent wasn't malicious the outcome was and they knew exactly what they were doing. It was not a "mistake" by Pimpske, Fatassi and the rest of the Fifth Column. "Fighting for their teams"? Hardly. Their teams would have existed regardless. And if you're one of the Fifth Column you don't see it as an "error". These guys have never cared about anyone but themselves. If going to the Earl benefitted them by putting yen in their already deep pockets, they were going to go. If CART went under as a result, tough noogies as far as they were concerned. The Fifth Column got their money. Screw everyone who got hurt as a result.

At some point it will finally sink in to you that the Fifth Column never did a damn thing to benefit the sport as a whole, only what was of benefit to themselves, and fans are simply peons to suck money out of and are considered disposable once they got what they wanted out of them. Do you think for a second that Floyd loses a wink of sleep thinking about the CART fans and how royally screwed they were by him chasing the Toyotabucks? If you believe that, I have bridge in Brooklyn I can get you a good price on. When in the history of his team did Penske do something for the good of the sport, rather than for the good of Roger Penske? Was it when he picked who got the Chevy Illmores and refused to lease to any team with a check (back when teams had to pay for engines)? Was it when he made sure the Buicks wouldn't be remotely competitive? Was it when he wouldn't let Porsche use a carbon fibre chassis until he got his? When?

If you're Roger Penske, these are NOT errors in any way. All of these things benefetted him and hurt the sport. He only cared about what benefits him. The sport has always been a means to an ends. And if something benefitted him, regardless of what it did to the sport, it was the right thing to do in Penske's eye.

Wake up and see reality. These guys basically ran CART for all intents and purposes. And when CART was no longer was a usefull means to their own personal ends they discarded it and moved on to something else. It's a tough thing to be a John & a whore at the same time, but these guys found a way to do it.

I believe that the teams would have withered away if they hadn't followed Toyota and Honda. Even Forsythe was looking for an out for his second driver because of economic reality.

What are Hendrick, Roush, Yates, Penske looking out for in Nextel Cup? The sport?

Did Penske build Fontana for the sake of the sport?

I would guess that the last act "for the sport" was the 1996 U.S. 500. It was to make a statement and not to make a profit. Anything else before or after in auto racing was and is about business. Unless you know an example that I am completely over looking.

[Madmaxfan2]

Sorry pal, Haas was one not only one of a couple human speed bumps on the CART board that habitually stood in the way of spending a dime or two on marketing the series, or making any other improvements that would cost money. He cashed in his chips long ago a did very nicely on the stock transaction. He hasn't given up anything, far from it.

Aside from that he's also been the dealer for the majority of the cars in the series, and marked up every single chassis sold. The chassis specs are static for the forseeable future, so no new car sales for Karl, spare parts only. Bottom line is that Haas has squeezed every nickel he could out of Champ Car racing, and now there are no more nickels to be had, so he's moving on.

oc
You are correct in your assessment. EARL goes road racing and there is $$$$ to be made with brake parts and clutchs going bad. Haas wants a piece of that action.

[DaveL]

What would be their motivation, to take a series that they basically owned, controlled, with plenty of money (at the time) - and ruin it all to instead be under TG's thumb?


They are not under TG's thumb. That's where this part of your arguement fails. TG is doing what the Fifth Column wants him to do, right down to factory engine deals the Lemmings are so upset about and road courses for next year which has the Lemmings even more upset. Their motivation is what it always was-it benefits them. CART was a means to an end. Once they could get more of what they wanted elsewhere they left. If CART is ruined in the process it's of no concern.



It wasn't intentional, they screwed up, they lost the manufacturers and then were stuck with the IRL.

And your argument fails here by positing that the mfgs left independent of the Fifth Column leaving. The reality is that they left BECAUSE the Fifth Column took them with. They weren't "stuck" with the IRL. Did you not read anything the others posted here? Pimpske was instrumental in getting Honda to bolt, and Cheep delivered Toyota. Your argument fails because you have everything backwards.

Now, on to Brickman...



I believe that the teams would have withered away if they hadn't followed Toyota and Honda. Even Forsythe was looking for an out for his second driver because of economic reality.


Again, the assumption is that they followed the mfgs. Brickman, they TOOK the mfgs with them. Outside of Nunn, the members of the Fifth Column have more money than most third world countries, and they have paying sponsors. Had they stayed in CART, T&H would have stayed. Your argument is based on the same backwards assumptions as Jonovision's.



What are Hendrick, Roush, Yates, Penske looking out for in Nextel Cup? The sport?


What viable competing stock series is there? If Penske could make more money racing in ARCA he'd be in ARCA. And comparing OW to stock car racing is apples and oranges at this point. And as it is, Yates building engines for Multimatic in GrandAm doesn't hurt NASCAR one bit.



Did Penske build Fontana for the sake of the sport?


He built Fontana because it was a viable economic project for him. It's not as if he donated Fontana to CART and NASCAR. If building a road course would have been more profitable for Penske, he'd have built a road course.



I would guess that the last act "for the sport" was the 1996 U.S. 500. It was to make a statement and not to make a profit.

Wrong again. Penske went to the US 500 kicking and screaming. He was still trying to get TG to compromise so CART could run at Indy. Making Michigan available was not a charitible donation on Penske's part. CART had to lease the track from him. CART spent money and Penske made money on the US 500.

[jonovision_man]

They are not under TG's thumb. That's where this part of your arguement fails. TG is doing what the Fifth Column wants him to do, right down to factory engine deals the Lemmings are so upset about and road courses for next year which has the Lemmings even more upset. Their motivation is what it always was-it benefits them. CART was a means to an end. Once they could get more of what they wanted elsewhere they left. If CART is ruined in the process it's of no concern.

They have some degree of control over TG, but nothing in comparisson to what they had in CART. They also had a pool of cash from the IPO in CART, now gone but at the time substantial.

It may have been in Penske's best interests to join the IRL, and in some twisted way it was in Honda/Toyota's best interests, but it wasn't in most of the owner's best interests. I especially have a hard time believing that Rahal/AF/Haas/etc. were actively working against CART back then.

Most of these owners have been compelled to join the IRL, and if you asked them 5 years ago if that was their intention they wouldn't be (weren't) lying when they said "no way".

[RichK]

Turn13 & 220mph would be proud!

[Brickman]

Again, the assumption is that they followed the mfgs. Brickman, they TOOK the mfgs with them. Outside of Nunn, the members of the Fifth Column have more money than most third world countries, and they have paying sponsors. Had they stayed in CART, T&H would have stayed. Your argument is based on the same backwards assumptions as Jonovision's.



Wrong again. Penske went to the US 500 kicking and screaming. He was still trying to get TG to compromise so CART could run at Indy. Making Michigan available was not a charitible donation on Penske's part. CART had to lease the track from him. CART spent money and Penske made money on the US 500.

They took Toyota and Honda?? Andretti/Green got Honda to move rather than the other way around? Mikey is a giant? Nahhhhhh Other way around. If Ganassi, Green, Nunn etc hadn't followed Toyota and Honda they would have gone to IRL teams.

Penske did strike a compromise, and may have leased the track. But it was the only act "for the series" rather than for business that anyone has made.

[DaveL]

They took Toyota and Honda?? Andretti/Green got Honda to move rather than the other way around? Mikey is a giant? Nahhhhhh Other way around. If Ganassi, Green, Nunn etc hadn't followed Toyota and Honda they would have gone to IRL teams.


Brickman, please read the posts in this thread carefully. Penske got Honda to bolt after Ganassi got Toyota to bolt. Forget Mikey (and we'd all like too) vis a vie Honda moving. Once Penske got Honda to go, Honda threw all of that money at Mikey and he left like the little whore that he is. Nunn is a different story. He was an mfg supported team from the word "go" and had to go where his sugar daddy went.



Penske did strike a compromise, and may have leased the track. But it was the only act "for the series" rather than for business that anyone has made.

Even if we accept that Penske did it "for the series", that's one act in lieu of God knows how many that were damaging. The balance sheet is still heavily in the "best for Penske only" column.

Turning to Jonovisionman...



They have some degree of control over TG, but nothing in comparisson to what they had in CART. They also had a pool of cash from the IPO in CART, now gone but at the time substantial.


Even if they have less control now than before, they still are doing what is best for them and not for the series they are now competing in. Go over the TF and ask the few die hard Lemmings that are left if they like the changes the Fifth Column have brought to the series they once loved. As far as many over there are concerned, the IRL as they knew ceased to exist after the '02 season, and the microscopic TV ratings compared to a few years ago for regular races, to say nothing of Indy would bear that out. And do you think Penske, Mikey, and Ganassi care that the original fan base of the IRL is being alienated? When have they cared before? As for the IPO, the Fifth Column cashed in their stock and took the money and ran. They each got shares as part of the IPO and sold them all off when they had substantial value (trading at over $30 a share). And after they made their millions selling their shares, they up and left CART. And again, if you think they didn't know they what they were doing was harmful to CART, you're living in a dream world.



It may have been in Penske's best interests to join the IRL, and in some twisted way it was in Honda/Toyota's best interests, but it wasn't in most of the owner's best interests. I especially have a hard time believing that Rahal/AF/Haas/etc. were actively working against CART back then.

If it wasn't in their own personal interests to be in the IRL they wouldn't be there. RaHole had a paying sponsor in Gigante and left anyway. Fernandez has no more sponsorship in the IRL (outside of Honda) than he would have in CART. But Fernandez wants to live like a king and Hondabucks let him which is the real reason why he left. Seems Tecate didn't like subsadizing a jet-set lifestyle. And if you're Fernandez, so what if millions of Mexican fans are hurt? He has his personal jet and mansion in Arizona. Priorities, Jonovisionman, priorities.



Most of these owners have been compelled to join the IRL, and if you asked them 5 years ago if that was their intention they wouldn't be (weren't) lying when they said "no way".


They were not "compelled" outside of Nunn. Don't insult us. And even if they would have answered the question "no way" 5 years ago, things change. If you would have asked Penske in 1994 if he thought he was going to dnq at Indy the next year, he would have said "no way" too.

Bottom line is that if T&H decieded to throw money at these whores to run GrandAm or ALMS and leave the IRL, or more correctly if they felt it would be more beneficial to their personal interests to take T&H to GrandAm or ALMS, they'd be in GrandAm or ALMS and if the IRL collapses as a result, well too bad for the IRL.

You're giving these guys way too much credit in terms of their benevolance.

[skaven]

Turn13 & 220mph would be proud!

No doubt. Sprinkle in some Silva sans <<>> while you're at it. :thumdown:

[DaveL]

Sprinkle in some Silva sans <<>> while you're at it.

There were times that Silva was being beaten around so bad that I almost felt sorry him.

Note I said "almost".

[Brickman]

Sorry Dave I didn't know Penske got Honda to move to the IRL. I know TG went to Japan. I believe American Honda was against the move. But I never picked up Roger's involvment.

Hell... I didn't know Ganassi got Toyota to bolt. I thought it was their own doings.

[jonovision_man]

Even if they have less control now than before, they still are doing what is best for them and not for the series they are now competing in.


I'm not disputing that... in fact I've said from the start they were doing what was in their best interests. As businesses I expect no less. I just don't think that when CART started to really hit the rocks it was in any way engineered or intentional.



If it wasn't in their own personal interests to be in the IRL they wouldn't be there. RaHole had a paying sponsor in Gigante and left anyway. Fernandez has no more sponsorship in the IRL (outside of Honda) than he would have in CART. But Fernandez wants to live like a king and Hondabucks let him which is the real reason why he left. Seems Tecate didn't like subsadizing a jet-set lifestyle. And if you're Fernandez, so what if millions of Mexican fans are hurt? He has his personal jet and mansion in Arizona. Priorities, Jonovisionman, priorities.


Peronsal interests, business interests, we're saying the same thing effectively. Racing is a business, making money is in a business' interests. When you ask an owner to take LESS money to stay in Champcars, you're asking them to give up millions.



They were not "compelled" outside of Nunn. Don't insult us. And even if they would have answered the question "no way" 5 years ago, things change. If you would have asked Penske in 1994 if he thought he was going to dnq at Indy the next year, he would have said "no way" too.


Compelled by what was best for their businesses.

Champcars are a break-even proposition at best, and only with team assistance. It's still a series on shakey ground.

The IRL/Honda/Toyota/etc. are offering them an opportunity to make money, and they're taking it.

As a previous poster said, you want loyalty, buy a dog.

[DaveL]

Sorry Dave I didn't know Penske got Honda to move to the IRL. I know TG went to Japan. I believe American Honda was against the move. But I never picked up Roger's involvment.


Roger was behind it. Robin Miller reported that more than once. In fact, he talks about it in his column that came out right after Indy when Miller addressed Penske's op-ed piece in the New York Times.



Hell... I didn't know Ganassi got Toyota to bolt. I thought it was their own doings.

Yep. It wasn't exactly the same scenario as Honda and Penske, but Ganassi took Toyota with him to the IRL after working with Penske to ram the Crapmoter formula down the throats of unsuspecting CART owners. He did it because it was good for Ganassi. If CART got hurt, well, oh well that's the way the cookie crumbles.

[JT265]

Turn13 & 220mph would be proud!


Ya THINK?!?!?!?

DaveL, as usual, I agree 100% with everything you've posted.:thumbup: However as you know, arguing with Brickman is an exercise in futility not seen since AJ's last car took to the track.

And I fear that Jonovision is teh Canadian equivalent of Gomervison. May I respectfully suggest that arguing facts with these two is like arguing with a tree stump, except the callouses aren't as big on your fingers and carpal tunnel syndrome never occurs.

[DaveL]

However as you know, arguing with Brickman is an exercise in futility not seen since AJ's last car took to the track.


Nah. Brickman's ok in my book. He's no Lemming and can accept facts. Turn13 is the worst Lemming I've ever dealt with. Alice had better luck with the Red Queen.

[Don Quixote]

I love it when people play the “its just business” card. Pimpski, Andretti, Floyd, Rahole, Fernandez et al have all used this excuse. The correct translation of “its just business” is:

“I did what I did because I am selfish. Besides, I don’t know the difference between right and wrong. I was born without a moral compass, and as such I often do underhanded, unscrupulous things to other people. Stabbing other people in the back does not bother me because I don’t think about long term consequences of my actions. I live in the now, for me, and me only.” :gomer:

[Brickman]

Roger was behind it. Robin Miller reported that more than once. In fact, he talks about it in his column that came out right after Indy when Miller addressed Penske's op-ed piece in the New York Times.



Yep. It wasn't exactly the same scenario as Honda and Penske, but Ganassi took Toyota with him to the IRL after working with Penske to ram the Crapmoter formula down the throats of unsuspecting CART owners. He did it because it was good for Ganassi. If CART got hurt, well, oh well that's the way the cookie crumbles.

I'll look Robin's words.

Hard to believe that Roger and Chip could sway Honda and Toyota. I'm not sure on the crapmotor formula though either Dave. Logically they should have adopted the exact engine, instead it was a different version that would have needed many changes to be used in CART and the IRL.

It was Toyota that made the decison to go IRLing first in April of whatever year. I always thought they wanted to get everybody on the same page as them. They didn't, so they abandoned CART. CART did vote for a 3.5 N/A but it wasn't the same animal. Not wanting to be just like them (IRL) they voted for higher revs and a couple other changes. There was no way any manufacturer was going to build engines so close but at higher costs because of the differences. It was Walker who led the CART engine group, splintered and screwed up they ran with it... right off the cliff. Ford saved the day.

[JoeBob]

What screwed CART in the engine department was Penske and Ganassi holding up the 1.8L turbo when Honda, Toyota, Ford and Mercedes had all agreed on it. Roger and Chip (and maybe a couple of others) felt that if CART changed engine specs, they'd never get back to Indy - so they held it up.

There's a lot of faults to be found with Derrick Walker. (For example, he ruined Sarah Fisher's career. ;) ) However, I don't know that you can put all of CART's manufacturer woes on his shoulders. He was put in a hole, handed a plastic spoon, and said, "Dig out of it."

The 3.5L engine that CART approved was essentially the IRL engine spec. The problem was that none of the manufacturers had agreed to supply it to them. Around the same time, IMS was making noises about limiting chassis suppliers, and asking them who else they would sell the chassis to. That pretty much sealed the deal for T&H to go IRL only. (They had been wavering, previously.)

[jonovision_man]

And I fear that Jonovision is teh Canadian equivalent of Gomervison.

I don't even watch the IRL. I watched the Indy 500, that's it, and it was the first time I caught it in about 3 or 4 years. It's not on the radar in Canada, there's pretty close to zero interest.

Although NASCAR's comin'. ;) Say hello to NASCAR Canada. :p
http://www.tsn.ca/news_story.asp?ID=87615

Parting comment: it's a business, always will be, and I truly hope KK & PG can create an environment that will once again bring top teams and drivers to what I consider to be a great series lost.

Enjoy the races, folks, and keep the blood pressure down. ;) :)

jono

[Brickman]

What screwed CART in the engine department was Penske and Ganassi holding up the 1.8L turbo when Honda, Toyota, Ford and Mercedes had all agreed on it. Roger and Chip (and maybe a couple of others) felt that if CART changed engine specs, they'd never get back to Indy - so they held it up.

There's a lot of faults to be found with Derrick Walker. (For example, he ruined Sarah Fisher's career. ;) ) However, I don't know that you can put all of CART's manufacturer woes on his shoulders. He was put in a hole, handed a plastic spoon, and said, "Dig out of it."

The 3.5L engine that CART approved was essentially the IRL engine spec. The problem was that none of the manufacturers had agreed to supply it to them. Around the same time, IMS was making noises about limiting chassis suppliers, and asking them who else they would sell the chassis to. That pretty much sealed the deal for T&H to go IRL only. (They had been wavering, previously.)

Those two guys with two votes sure wielded a lot of power. ;)

Well it wasn't an engine that could be done. The cost difference was supposedly great because of the different revs and features. And they said you couldn't get part way pregnant. Adopt it 100% or stick with the Ford.

But I agree. Keeping an eye on Indy kept two eyes off Champ Car.

[JT265]

^^^^^ X 2.

I rest my case. ;)