What's This?

[Andrew Longman]

"Despite the competitors’ near-unanimous consensus to the contrary, officials are apparently determined to re-introduce the arbitrary “three green flag” pit stop rule this weekend at PIR after having had what now appears to have been a fleeting moment of clear thinking in reverting to the mandatory pit stop windows at the Milwaukee Mile. Having dodged a bullet at Monterrey"

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/autoindustry/11583/

I thought the agreed this was a mistake after Monterrey

[Insomniac]

"Despite the competitors’ near-unanimous consensus to the contrary, officials are apparently determined to re-introduce the arbitrary “three green flag” pit stop rule this weekend at PIR after having had what now appears to have been a fleeting moment of clear thinking in reverting to the mandatory pit stop windows at the Milwaukee Mile. Having dodged a bullet at Monterrey"

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/autoindustry/11583/

I thought the agreed this was a mistake after Monterrey

They said they were reverting to the pit windows only for Milwaukee. So they haven't gone back on what they said.

[Ed_Severson]

Can't we just race and let people pit whenever they want, like every other racing series on earth? :rolleyes:

I don't understand how strategy suddenly became the enemy of Champ Car racing.

[G.]

They came up with the pit stop rules to encourage flat-out speed over fuel conservation. Whether it is a success or not, I'll leave that up to the internet pundits...

[Rogue Leader]

Can't we just race and let people pit whenever they want, like every other racing series on earth? :rolleyes:

I don't understand how strategy suddenly became the enemy of Champ Car racing.


The window rule makes for better racing, this rule blows. As for letting people pit whenever then you get fuel mieage games like F1 is now... no passing, just timing pitstops and laying down fast laps when your competitors are in the pits, its boring...

[rabbit]

With the windows, you definitely saw guys driving balls-to-the-wall for the full race distance -- provided, of course, that the windows were well thought out (see also Hatch, Brands).

I agree with Rogue Leader, this rule blows. Either go back to no regulation on pit stops or go back to the windows.

[Andrew Longman]

I do now remember that Milwaukee was supposed to be a one race deal, but they must realize that they dodged a bullet at Monterrey. One of these days an ill-timed yellow will create a very undeserving win.

Personally I like the windows approach (with reservations, especially initially). It promoted flat out racing and avoided a backmarker getting lucky with flags and winning the race (see Max Papis at Laguna Seca while running at the back the entire race and making I think 11 pit stops)

They should also be looking at NASCAR (i.e., dega and Pocono) to see what overly managed pit, finish and flagging rules can do. Moreover, NASCAR is showing the confusing effect changing the rules every week has on fans. Half their fans are mad simply because they misunderstand this weeks rule.

[Ed_Severson]

"The window rule makes for better racing, this rule blows. As for letting people pit whenever then you get fuel mieage games like F1 is now... no passing, just timing pitstops and laying down fast laps when your competitors are in the pits, its boring..."

It's the only thing that makes F1 remotely interesting right now.

Fuel mileage has been a factor in auto racing for the last hundred years. To suddenly decide that fuel economy is the devil of motorsports is retarded.

If they're looking to improve the quality of the races, they should be starting with reintroducing the fuel mixture control, asking Bridgestone to develop more than one tire compound, and learning how to properly manage yellow flags so you can't benefit from making three extra stops.

Somehow, over the last three or four years, there's been a drift in philosophy towards micromanaging every little detail of the sport. It's getting to feel a little contrived, with the fuel windows and mandatory green flag stops and "option" tires that you don't have an option on. It's as if somebody determined that the racing from the last twenty five years was just too damned awful to continue.

Hopefully they'll eventually figure out that if they just put the cars on the track and let the teams decide how to run their operations for the weekend, the product will be just fine, like it always has been.

[racer2c]

There's only one thing I hate as much as crapwagons and hanford devices and that fuel switches in the cockpit. The fuel should be regulated from the drivers foot, not an engineer giving meter settings over the headset. I don't have an answer for the mandated pit windows right now, but the thought of a return to onboard fuel switches makes me cringe.

[Andrew Longman]

I've heard the suggestion before to greatly reduce the size of the fuel cell and do away with any pit rules/windows. It interests me.

Small tanks that mandate short runs and many stops thus greatly reducing economy runs as a viable strategy. It also makes the cars faster and more consistent throughout a run and puts a premium on pit crew performance and strategy. And it introduced more variables into the mix.

But I agree with Ed. Too much tinkering of late. What was wrong with just letting them race?

[RichK]

Great post, Ed!

[Lizzerd]

Put cranes in the corners and eliminate full course yellows unless absolutely necessary. Problem solved.

[RTKar]

Put cranes in the corners and eliminate full course yellows unless absolutely necessary. Problem solved.

Lizzerd is wise.... :thumbup:

[Rogue Leader]

Lizzerd Cranes is the first thing I would do too.

As for your response Ed, I give it a yes and a no. Yes because at least it provides SOME sort of competition. No because IMO (but this is also because of Ferrari Domination) the races feel contrived by Ferrari, who just basically exploits it. Schumi takes the lead, drives balls to the wall when he hears his rivals are in the pits, takes a stop, and hops right back in the lead. Its was very obvious at Canada this weekend.

F1 has always been basically a parade (with a few exceptions), and that would be tough to fix, but Champ Car would go down the same path. It may not be the same person doing it every week, but id say most of the veteran top (PT, PC, Bourdais, Junky, Vasser) can get around the tracks very fast without smacking up, so they wait eachother out and lay down fast laps. Whoever gets themself in the lead after the first 20 laps basically owns it. The new rule just takes this concept and forces it into a 3 stop strategy.

What Champ Car has going for it now is that the cars are basically the same so its really down to the driver. With any luck that wont be the same in a few years (meaning multiple constructors and engines, I dont count Reynard this year because their cars are basically uncompetitive) and with open fueling you will eventually have another F1.

Racing technology today is inching closer to a standstill (safety and speed being two of them) and we really dont see the breakthroughs we saw 20, 15, even 10 years ago. So those who have the $$ to buy the best will be up front, and everyone else will be in a line behind them, limited by the performance of their cars. Pit windows can get mildly competitive cars competitive as the leaders will be kept in close, and they have to push because if they make a mistake a car thats a few 10ths slower will be up their ass.. When its the last laps of the race, hopefully the talent outdoes the equipment.

Its much more interesting t watch, and im sure more exciting for the drivers (I know as a racer myself its more exciting to me) to be pushing hard the whole time, then to only have to hoof it when my rival is in pit lane...

[mueber]

Great post, Ed!

Agreed.

[Insomniac]

Hopefully a new engine formula will help. With a move to gasoline as a possibility, they can increase milage and greatly reduce the size of the fuel cells. The key is to eliminate the possibility someone could drive slow (and save a pit stop) and win the race. Eliminating FCYs will also go a long way in helping that as many have mentioned. I feel strategy and luck are two different things. No one should win when they drive slow and get lucky. It defeats the entire purpose of racing. You're supposed to be the fastest!

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

Just let them race. Enough said.

[Steve99]

I feel strategy and luck are two different things. No one should win when they drive slow and get lucky. It defeats the entire purpose of racing. You're supposed to be the fastest!

This deserves repeating. You're supposed to drive the car the fastest, not win by driving slow to save fuel.

[cartmanoz]

Pitstops suck. Period!

However, I can understand the reasoning behind not putting a 100 gallon on a ChampCar. ;)

[Fitti Fan]

Everytime I see this thread, I can't help but think of The Nightmare Before Christmas, and I get that song stuck in my head!!!!! :shakehead

[L1P1]

At least three of the most memorable races I've ever seen hinged on fuel strategy. There's nothing more I like to hear than "He's twenty-five seconds behind the leader with twenty-five laps to go and he's gaining one second per lap - and has all the fuel he wants, whereas the leader needs to conserve."

I think it becomes a problem when everyone is on the same strategy. And this probably happens more frequently now because everyone is running the same engine. We need some diversity ASAP. Not more rules. Push-to-pass is a good idea for the interim given the current realities. Get rid of all pitting rules and focus creating the opportunity for different strategies to work.

[pfc_m_drake]

At least three of the most memorable races I've ever seen hinged on fuel strategy. There's nothing more I like to hear than "He's twenty-five seconds behind the leader with twenty-five laps to go and he's gaining one second per lap - and has all the fuel he wants, whereas the leader needs to conserve."

I think it becomes a problem when everyone is on the same strategy. And this probably happens more frequently now because everyone is running the same engine. We need some diversity ASAP. Not more rules. Push-to-pass is a good idea for the interim given the current realities. Get rid of all pitting rules and focus creating the opportunity for different strategies to work.
I couldn't agree more. Whether everybody is on the same 'flat-out' strategy or whether everybody is conserving fuel...either way EVERYBODY is on the same strategy...and that's boring.

Remember the year Gil won at Portland running flat-out and making an extra pit stop for a splash while everybody else conserved so they didn't need an extra stop? That was way cool.

[cart7]

Put cranes in the corners and eliminate full course yellows unless absolutely necessary. Problem solved.
Yes, Yes, Yes! How come F1 can run race after race w/o a FCY while CCWS is throwing the darn thing everytime fabio or wanker Lavin runs off into the gravel??

[Methanolandbrats]

Lip understands. Get rid of all the goofy assed rules. You need two flags: one for the starter and the checkered one. The rest is up to the teams.

[Lizzerd]

Remember the year Gil won at Portland running flat-out and making an extra pit stop for a splash while everybody else conserved so they didn't need an extra stop? That was way cool.

Zanardi did the same a few years back at Mid Ohio... '97? Yes, it is cool.

[Sean O'Gorman]

To me, fuel strategy is only good for a race if its used as an alternative to passing, not because there is no way to get around slower drivers.

[Rogue Leader]

yeah whatever happened to "splash-and-gos" that was a staple of both champ cars and nascar for a long time and THOSE were fuel mileage battles that were fun to see.

[Turn7]

yeah whatever happened to "splash-and-gos" that was a staple of both champ cars and nascar for a long time and THOSE were fuel mileage battles that were fun to see.

Pit lane speed limits were imposed. The penalty for coming into the pits by having to go 50 mph all the way down the front stretch has overwhelmed any opportunity to come in for a spot of gas. It takes just way to much time to do now.

[Insomniac]

I couldn't agree more. Whether everybody is on the same 'flat-out' strategy or whether everybody is conserving fuel...either way EVERYBODY is on the same strategy...and that's boring.

Remember the year Gil won at Portland running flat-out and making an extra pit stop for a splash while everybody else conserved so they didn't need an extra stop? That was way cool.

I agree those were great races, but how rare were they compared to the fuel conservation win? A guy going around at the bavck the entire race and getting gifted a win is terrible. Part of the reason those races were fun is that the faster car won, as they should.

[Ed_Severson]

I have to admit, I don't understand this attitude that leads to the conclusion that a win on a fuel economy strategy is a "gift."

Let's be honest here -- you can't drive around ten miles slower than everybody else and pull this sort of thing off. Saving fuel does require you to run at a slightly slower pace, but you still have to maintain enough pace to make the strategy work.

It seems to me that winning a race in that fashion requires both pace and a little bit of brains to make it work. Maybe some of you don't like seeing somebody lose because they got mentally outperformed, but I don't mind it. It's a thinking man's game, and if you outsmart everybody else, you deserve to win, even if your strategy calls for you to drive around in 10th place all day to make fuel.

[Car-B-Q]

What if the past rule (pit windows) and the new rule (mandatory stops) were combined in a way to encourage full out runs, yet not take the strategy out of it. Something along the line of a mandatory stop before 1/2 way point and another with x number of laps remaining. Someone might be able to conserve a little in the middle of the race, but having to do a relatively late pit stop ensures an all out run to the finish.

But if they are going to have the mandatory pit stops, it shouldn't be limited to green flag only. If they get lucky by a yellow, so be it. If they get unlucky by the yellow, so be it as well. But get rid of (or at least limit) the FCY and the pit strategy looks a whole lot different.

[Mike Kellner]

My plan to save racing for both Champ Cars and F1 is to set the way back machine to about 1968. I would get rid of wings, ground effects, every chicane built in the last 30 years, fuel tank size limits, manditory stops, green flag pit lane speed limits, half mile long pit entrances and exits, telemetry, spotters, traction control, anti-lock brakes, and shifters that use anything other than levers, rods, and gears.

I would also toss half the rule book overboard to save weight, and fire useless officials. There would not be full course yellows if the cars could make it past the wreck, and the pits would only close if pit lane was blocked by a wreck or ensuing rescue, at which point the race would be red flagged because part of the track was unpassable.

My tire rule would be run what you brung, but they tire companies had to sign up all who wanted their tires, with mid season switching allowed, and no lock in contracts.

[pfc_m_drake]

I agree those were great races, but how rare were they compared to the fuel conservation win? A guy going around at the bavck the entire race and getting gifted a win is terrible. Part of the reason those races were fun is that the faster car won, as they should.
It wasn't every week, but they did happen. As Lizzard pointed out, Zanardi did the same trick in '97. Gil actually did it two years in a row at Portland (once with Walker, once with Penske). Helio ended up trying that strategy at MIS :eek: (the last year CART was there I think)...he almost put a lap on the field but was burned by a yellow.

Another type of strategy (often employed by Zanardi) was to save fuel while following somebody he couldn't quite pass. He would dial the fuel back while following rather than try bonzi moves. Ultimately the guy in front would have to pit, but Zanardi would have 1-2 laps of fuel left...which would be his fastest laps (lightest fuel load). After Zanardi pitted, he often led the guy he was following - I'm sure I don't have to explain why.

I loved seeing those types of strategies play out. Honestly, I think what has happened last year and this year (to a lesser extent) is that the guy with the fastest car runs P2, the guy with the 2nd fastest car runs P2, the third fastest car runs P3...all the way down. And there's about a 5-7 second gap between positions...so if the race has 80 laps, the cars are perfectly ordered by speed for 78 of those laps with everybody driving flat-out.

There's nothing wrong with the above, and heck some people here refer to the above as...what's the term they use...'proper racing'? By giving people the opportunity to use different strategies, yeah, you do give somebody who doesn't have the fastest car on a given day the chance to win.

To me, when you essentially force everybody down the same path, you're taking something away. Different people like different things I guess, but as others have pointed out, name another major auto racing series where pit-stop strategy is NOT in the hands of the team.

[RichK]

My plan to save racing for both Champ Cars and F1 is to set the way back machine to about 1968. I would get rid of wings, ground effects, ....

I think it would be awesome to see how fast a car could get around some current tracks without aero devices! With all of the tire and suspension technology from the last ~30 years, it would be cool to go back to mostly "mechanical grip" and see where the engineers could find speed.

[FCYTravis]

There would not be full course yellows if the cars could make it past the wreck
Half of me thinks you're joking.

Drivers don't respect local yellows anymore. It's sad, but true. We had about 10 drivers penalized for passing under local yellows at last week's SCCA races at Laguna Seca, and it got so bad that the stewards have told an entire race group (Formula cars and sports racers) that the tows will not be dispatched under local for them anymore, period, because they nearly clobbered one of the tow trucks in Turn 2.

It's simply not safe to pull cars out under local flags when cars are whizzing by at full race speed, dicing, spinning off and otherwise completely ignoring the safety of their fellow driver stuck in the car and the safety of the flag marshals and emergency crews on the ground.

[Insomniac]

I have to admit, I don't understand this attitude that leads to the conclusion that a win on a fuel economy strategy is a "gift."

Let's be honest here -- you can't drive around ten miles slower than everybody else and pull this sort of thing off. Saving fuel does require you to run at a slightly slower pace, but you still have to maintain enough pace to make the strategy work.

It seems to me that winning a race in that fashion requires both pace and a little bit of brains to make it work. Maybe some of you don't like seeing somebody lose because they got mentally outperformed, but I don't mind it. It's a thinking man's game, and if you outsmart everybody else, you deserve to win, even if your strategy calls for you to drive around in 10th place all day to make fuel.

Actually, you need FCYs so that you can catch back up. You would never win a race any other way driving around 1 second slower than the fastest car. That is luck. It is a losing "strategy" based on getting timely full course yellows. If the race happens any other way, they can't win. There is a big difference between that and real strategy in my opinion.

[Mike Kellner]

Easy solution. You have a guy with a big sandwich board sign that says 40 MPH, or whatever the steward deems safe, and a radar gun, handing out stop and go penalties. Within a week, everyone will be respecting local yellows.

mk

[Insomniac]

It wasn't every week, but they did happen. As Lizzard pointed out, Zanardi did the same trick in '97. Gil actually did it two years in a row at Portland (once with Walker, once with Penske). Helio ended up trying that strategy at MIS :eek: (the last year CART was there I think)...he almost put a lap on the field but was burned by a yellow.

Another type of strategy (often employed by Zanardi) was to save fuel while following somebody he couldn't quite pass. He would dial the fuel back while following rather than try bonzi moves. Ultimately the guy in front would have to pit, but Zanardi would have 1-2 laps of fuel left...which would be his fastest laps (lightest fuel load). After Zanardi pitted, he often led the guy he was following - I'm sure I don't have to explain why.

I loved seeing those types of strategies play out. Honestly, I think what has happened last year and this year (to a lesser extent) is that the guy with the fastest car runs P2, the guy with the 2nd fastest car runs P2, the third fastest car runs P3...all the way down. And there's about a 5-7 second gap between positions...so if the race has 80 laps, the cars are perfectly ordered by speed for 78 of those laps with everybody driving flat-out.

There's nothing wrong with the above, and heck some people here refer to the above as...what's the term they use...'proper racing'? By giving people the opportunity to use different strategies, yeah, you do give somebody who doesn't have the fastest car on a given day the chance to win.

To me, when you essentially force everybody down the same path, you're taking something away. Different people like different things I guess, but as others have pointed out, name another major auto racing series where pit-stop strategy is NOT in the hands of the team.

I'm not a fan of the mandatory pit stops either. Especially now with identical engines. I enjoyed all the races you talked about, it's the ones that had a guy who starts practically DFL take a million pit stops and win the race. Not only is that a poor outcome, but it mneans that the race was filled with yellow flags to help that person win a race he had no business winning. I want them to race and I want them to use strategy, but it's a joke when a guy that slow wins. (Yes, I know he completed the race faster than anyone else, but if you add up his green flag laps he doesn't come close to winning)

Maybe a solution is to force the use of the pit speed lane button when under caution? Don't let the cars bunch back up behind the pace car. It effectively leaves them where they were when it was green. It isn't fair that a guy can "race" under yellow to catch up to the pack while the rest of the cars are following the pace car. I certainly understand the fear of having course workers on track with cars going by, but it's odd they let the guys in the back step on it to catch up. The only rule is don't pass the pace car or the car in front of you, but drive as fast as you want. Aren't they concerend about those guys at all?