Ten Ovals

[nrc]

Pick ten ovals that would make sense for a combined series.

Tracks I'd like to see that make sense:

Milwaukee - good track, great history, a no-brainer
Phoenix - ditto
Indy - great history if we can get the stink out, the sponsors that are left still want it.
Motegi - good track but only if Honda is paying for the trip
Fontana - Still a great track even if ISC doesn't pay well.
Michigan - ditto

Tracks I don't want to see that may make sense:
Chicago - they want the market, I hate the soup bowls. Gerry would rather have a street race.
Texas - ditto

The rest?

Pike's Peak - nice little track but Denver draws about the same and has more potential
Kansas City - another soup bowl. Unless ISC is willing to actually pay a decent sanction fee to keep their NASCAR tax coming in this market isn't big enough to worth another soup bowl.
Kentucky - not worthwhile as long as you have Mid Ohio or Cleveland. I'd rather go back to St. Louis
Miami - doesn't draw flies
Nashville - big sellouts of 20,000 people? No thanks
Richmond - no way
Nazareth - gone

I suspect talk of a ten and ten schedule is intended as an even compromise to avoid the appearance of a "winner". If it happened they would probably be down to those top seven or eight within a couple of years. Fewer if ISC won't pay to make it worthwhile to go to the big ovals.

[Ankf00]

gateway and loudon, two relatively flat and mile'ish ovals

[CART T. Katz]

i would add the k-speedway (k for kentucky) for very obvious and selfish reasons and throw the vegas oval in there as well.

[Railbird]

all depends on the formula for this supposed series.

If it's Indycars with their current engine I have a hard time caring much about any of them.

Hell, the detuned Champcars are bad enough.

[Turn7]

:gomer: TWS; Dega; Daytona :gomer:


Really maybe Vegas if the timing was right, and Gateway.

[racer2c]

I always thought the Rio 'roval' was a perfect oval for Champ Cars. They should be in Brazil.

[Methanolandbrats]

Milw, Roval, Phoenix..........screw the rest of em.

[nrc]

I wasn't looking for a list of favorites. I'm trying to thinking of what makes sense for running a series. After all, we keep hearing about how it's just a bidness.

[Methanolandbrats]

I wasn't looking for a list of favorites. I'm trying to thinking of what makes sense for running a series. After all, we keep hearing about how it's just a bidness. I don't think there are ten that are suitable. Superspeedways and banked short ovals are too dangerous for open wheel cars. Leave em to the cabs and build an international road and street series with a few ovals. Of course that flys in the face of the all-american, gomer, dirt track, indy worship, turn left, oval ........................................kind of a roadblock to unity.

[racer2c]

I wasn't looking for a list of favorites. I'm trying to thinking of what makes sense for running a series. After all, we keep hearing about how it's just a bidness.

Well, I stick with Brazil. One of those corrupt mayors will drop some major cash. Is there an oval in Australia? That's a long flight for one damn race. The IRL side will never drop Texas unless 1, either a racer/racers die in 'the big one' or 2, junk flies up in the stands, or three, god forbid, both. I'm interested to see how many there are for the IRL in Mil. Richmond sucks, but it does serve a large market, a very large market where the closest race is Cleveland, 400 miles away.
Fontana had a good CART crowd recently, Michigan did historically.
I think the Vegas oval blows, but Vegas is the City du jour. Everything is Vegas this, Vegas that. Personally I think a street race there would serve Champ Car better.

[racer2c]

I don't think there are ten that are suitable. Superspeedways and banked short ovals are too dangerous for open wheel cars. Leave em to the cabs and build an international road and street series with a few ovals. Of course that flys in the face of the all-american, gomer, dirt track, indy worship, turn left, oval ........................................kind of a roadblock to unity.

I don't have a problem with modern formula cars on ovals, super or not-super, just as long as it isn't manipulated side by side, hold your breath till the 'big one', racing.

[racer2c]

Ok, I read Millers piece. Rather funny that Roger was the lone representative. It appears ol' Rog has the kings authority as he mentions a proposed eight man board, four from each side, to run the unified series.

No turbos? No go! Yes, there are hurdles. it would have been easier two years after the lock out.

"They are so enthusiastic to do something with us it's almost frightening." said KK. Never doubt spicoli. :)

After avoiding what could have been the most embarrassing Indy in the history, which it could have been anyway, it's no wonder they (the IRL) are tripping over themselves to insure a full field for next year. It's all about Indy. Never forget.

Sorry to digress nrc.

[formulaben]

I'm not a big fan of ovals to begin with, but since you asked, Rio and Germany I thought were good. But based on how you asked the question, perhaps you're only talking about ovals on the current IRL schedule?

[Mike Kellner]

If Champcar wants to run ovals, and any can be found that can fill the seats to see real racecars, well great. We don't need Tony & Roger to do that.

Personally, I think we should get a new road racing car that is lighter and more agile, and walk away from ovals. The rest of the world thinks they are stupid, and in the US, oval fans want to see taxicabs race on them. Let's concentrate on where ChampCar is successful, and grow our business. If Roger doesn't like racing in front of empty stands, tough. Nobody forced him to stab CART in the back and move to Bricksylvania.

mk

[racer2c]

If Champcar wants to run ovals, and any can be found that can fill the seats to see real racecars, well great. We don't need Tony & Roger to do that.

Personally, I think we should get a new road racing car that is lighter and more agile, and walk away from ovals. The rest of the world thinks they are stupid, and in the US, oval fans want to see taxicabs race on them. Let's concentrate on where ChampCar is successful, and grow our business. If Roger doesn't like racing in front of empty stands, tough. Nobody forced him to stab CART in the back and move to Bricksylvania.

mk

"Bricksylvania" :thumbup: :rofl: Classic!

[Sean O'Gorman]

Indy, Michigan, Fontana, and Milwaukee are all I care about.

Finding a way to get all the good road courses, Cleveland, and the profitable street races in would be the real challenge.

[Mike Kellner]

Michigan and Fontana are owned by ISC, which is part of NASCAR, which is only interested in promoting NASCAR. They will never support a ChampCar race. Indy is owned by a lunatic who hates ChampCar, has visions, and threatens people with a hammer. We will never race there either.

We already race at Milwaukee.

mk

[Lizzerd]

Indy, Michigan, Fontana, and Milwaukee are all I care about.

Finding a way to get all the good road courses, Cleveland, and the profitable street races in would be the real challenge.

I agree with your oval choices, but I would throw in Phoenix too, just because it's an interesting track and has had some fantastic racing in years past. That makes the max of five ovals that I would like to see.

But, NO to Indy unless it is a Champ Car sanctioned race (or whatever the "unified" series might be called), and NOT under the rule of TG unless it is as a TRACK OWNER ONLY.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I agree with your oval choices, but I would throw in Phoenix too, just because it's an interesting track and has had some fantastic racing in years past. That makes the max of five ovals that I would like to see.

But, NO to Indy unless it is a Champ Car sanctioned race (or whatever the "unified" series might be called), and NOT under the rule of TG unless it is as a TRACK OWNER ONLY.

Oops, I forgot about Phoenix. Add that one in too. I'd rather see more than 5 ovals, I'm just pretty indifferent as to what the other 5 would be, as long as they weren't all 1.5 mile flat out momentum fests.

I would assume your second paragraph is a given. Don't need him messing around with the format year after year and just making things worse.

[Lizzerd]

Michigan and Fontana are owned by ISC, which is part of NASCAR, which is only interested in promoting NASCAR. They will never support a ChampCar race. Indy is owned by a lunatic who hates ChampCar, has visions, and threatens people with a hammer. We will never race there either.

We already race at Milwaukee.

mk

But, Mike... Do you think that ISC might loosen their noose on their beyatch TG, IF there was "unification"? And that's a big IF, by the way. I'd rather survive and thrive on our own, but IF it happens...

[Mike Kellner]

Tony is only useful to NASCAR as long as he is screwing up their competition.(Ditto for Bernie) If the competition was unified, and US open wheel started to thrive, you would see NASCAR, er I mean ISC, suddenly quit hosting open wheel races, and Tony would find that there was a new chilly climate when it came time to renegotiate the Brickyard 400 & USGP.

mk

[sadams]

Loudon put on some good racing back in 93.
Ditto for Nazareth.
But ovals really are a silly form of "racing" esp. with todays cars. Plant right foot, turn left, repeat n times, wave flag. I don't know how the taxi fans can watch that drivel week in and week out.

[RaceGrrl]

But, Mike... Do you think that ISC might loosen their noose on their beyatch TG, IF there was "unification"? And that's a big IF, by the way. I'd rather survive and thrive on our own, but IF it happens...


No way they'd loosen the noose if there is reunification. Reunification could potentially mean a stronger OW following in the US, which in turn could weaken NASCAR's following. It ain't gonna happen. I would be very surprised if NASCAR did anything to put themselves in a weaker position.

[Madmaxfan2]

Let's get one thing straight, folks. This sport was never officially unified. I will bring it up AGAIN. CART NEVER SANCTIONED THE INDY 500. That is a fact!
What I hope Penske is proposing a one single sanctioning body for the sport, one that IMS and the rest of the OW community will accept. What is considered the glory days of CART and the involvement of the INDY 500 in it was CART awarded championship points for INDY 500 results, There were basic common rules for the cars and engines, BUt there differences even then.
One prime example was the 10 extra inches of boost of the turbo stock block Buick engines for Indy. CART never allowed that in it's rules structure. LETS STOP CALLING IT REUNIFICATION! :mad:

[Andrew Longman]

Let's get one thing straight, folks. This sport was never officially unified. I will bring it up AGAIN. CART NEVER SANCTIONED THE INDY 500. That is a fact!
What I hope Penske is proposing a one single sanctioning body for the sport, one that IMS and the rest of the OW community will accept. What is considered the glory days of CART and the involvement of the INDY 500 in it was CART awarded championship points for INDY 500 results, There were basic common rules for the cars and engines, BUt there differences even then.
One prime example was the 10 extra inches of boost of the turbo stock block Buick engines for Indy. CART never allowed that in it's rules structure. LETS STOP CALLING IT REUNIFICATION! :mad:

Yes and I believe it was the Indy-only rules that allowed the extra boost push-rod Mercedes in 1994 to dominate Indy. But those engines did not run the regular CART season.

As for 10 and 10, ten ovals is way too many and much more than the market will support. Five may be too many. I'll concede the importance of Indy, people do show up. Add flat tracks like Milwaukee, Phoenix (ISC track?) and NH and either MIS or CA if ISC is playing nice.

[Joe in LA]

Much as I fear and dislike Texas, I can't see a "unified" series without it on the list. Neither side will pass on an oval that has decent attendance.

[molive]

I'm not a big fan of ovals to begin with, but since you asked, Rio and Germany I thought were good. But based on how you asked the question, perhaps you're only talking about ovals on the current IRL schedule?


Agree with Lausitz, but Rio's oval track is crap. It isnt even an oval, and imo it failed exactly by not being able to show the local road-race-loving fans what oval racing is about (I mean, as a novelty thingy).

I hope they dont go with this 10-10 schedule, which would mean I'd only really watch half of the season... :shakehead

[racer2c]

Even after nrc reminded everyone that this was a thread about what ten ovals would be good for the unified series, you mouth breathers continue with your personal favorites or opinons on which suck. No wonder he hasn't come back to his thread. :thumdown:

[nrc]

I think it's just the fact that everyone pretty much assumes the point I was getting at - that there really aren't ten ovals that make business sense, so they go off on a tangent and talk about favorites. Trouble is, a lot of the favorites don't make business sense either.

Rio - one of my favorites but Brazil's economy isn't going to support the kind of government backing it would need to work.

Loudon - good track but I doubt that it will draw.

Vegas - only if you had the Casios on board in a big way or maybe slot machines at each seat.

[pchall]

Vegas - only if you had the Casios on board in a big way or maybe slot machines at each seat.

Dome the track, aircondition to 65 degrees, add pole dancers and free drinks. Run the race at 2am.


But in the end, there just aren't 10 ovals suitable for running a real champcar race.

[Joe in LA]

"Dome the track, aircondition to 65 degrees, add pole dancers and free drinks. Run the race at 2am."

This might work at all tracks. :)

[Dvdb]

Damn, I think pchall has hit upon the ultimate solution. Must be that Miami education, huh?

Now we just have to find suitable strippers for each venue.........I'm willing to do the legwork, as it were. :)

[oddlycalm]

I suspect talk of a ten and ten schedule is intended as an even compromise to avoid the appearance of a "winner". If it happened they would probably be down to those top seven or eight within a couple of years. Fewer if ISC won't pay to make it worthwhile to go to the big ovals.

Agreed, the EARL and CART both demonstrated that the market simply isn't there for a lot of these venues, so I can't see what will be different going forward. The only viable ovals are probably IMS, Milwaukee, TMS, and maybe Fontana and Phoenix. A large number of weak events is a bad idea regardless of what series is running the event.

Same can be said for US road courses unfortunately. Pooling the strong CCWS and EARL events doesn't come close to 20. Sad but true, and the bulk of the strong races are foreign events. Even a combine series woudn't be magic, and it would take years of hard work to rebuild something worth having.

oc

[formulaben]

Even after nrc reminded everyone that this was a thread about what ten ovals would be good for the unified series, you mouth breathers continue with your personal favorites or opinons on which suck. No wonder he hasn't come back to his thread. :thumdown:

So does that mean that my personal favorites would not be good for a unified series? I don't like Indy, should that oval be on the list?

What the hell is your problem with the answers? Did you forget to drink your coffee this morning? :cry:

[Turn7]

You want 20 successful events? Go here whether it be road, street or oval.

Rank July 1, 2003 July 1, 2002 July 1, 2001 July 1, 2000
Estimates
Base Census
1 New York city NY 8,085,742 8,072,011 8,055,166 8,017,078 8,008,654 8,008,278
2 Los Angeles city CA 3,819,951 3,785,169 3,743,821 3,703,930 3,694,742 3,694,820
3 Chicago city IL 2,869,121 2,882,264 2,893,024 2,895,444 2,896,047 2,896,016
4 Houston city TX 2,009,690 2,001,136 1,977,218 1,958,258 1,953,633 1,953,631
5 Philadelphia city PA 1,479,339 1,488,780 1,499,758 1,513,684 1,517,550 1,517,550
6 Phoenix city AZ 1,388,416 1,368,246 1,345,193 1,325,715 1,321,190 1,321,045
7 San Diego city CA 1,266,753 1,254,681 1,244,347 1,228,196 1,223,429 1,223,400
8 San Antonio city TX 1,214,725 1,193,367 1,170,116 1,154,897 1,151,305 1,144,646
9 Dallas city TX 1,208,318 1,205,887 1,202,353 1,190,334 1,188,589 1,188,580
10 Detroit city MI 911,402 921,759 933,827 946,765 951,270 951,270
11 San Jose city CA 898,349 897,349 904,358 898,071 895,193 894,943
12 Indianapolis city (balance) IN 783,438 782,761 783,956 781,692 781,864 781,870
13 Jacksonville city FL 773,781 760,837 748,288 736,415 735,617 735,617
14 San Francisco city CA 751,682 761,983 774,611 776,602 776,733 776,733
15 Columbus city OH 728,432 723,385 719,863 713,308 711,265 711,470
16 Austin city TX 672,011 669,675 671,447 660,413 656,562 656,562
17 Memphis city TN 645,978 646,624 647,256 649,809 650,100 650,100
18 Baltimore city MD 628,670 636,479 645,305 648,557 651,154 651,154
19 Milwaukee city WI 586,941 589,637 592,032 595,951 596,974 596,974
20 Fort Worth city TX 585,122 568,913 554,714 543,677 541,099 534,694
Geographic area
Population estimates April 1, 2000

[Racing Truth]

Much as I fear and dislike Texas, I can't see a "unified" series without it on the list. Neither side will pass on an oval that has decent attendance.

Probably right.

Likely, it would be something like this:

Phoenix
IMS
Texas
MIS
Fontana
Milwaukee
Kansas (if I had to guess)
I'm thinking Lausitz would be nice


Yeah, the last 2 are tricky here. Some of it depends on the formula used. If it is purely the IRL formula, then two 1.5 milers is plenty. If the formula at least makes the cars harder to drive (lifting), I could live with one more, probably Chicagoland.

The final one, for me, is interesting. For me, it comes down to a choice between Pikes Peak and Richmond.

Richmond is too small in my view, but it can be interesting. I like Pikes Peak, but some say its too small, in terms of attendance. True, but that's why I think it would be ideal. You might only get (after years of unified growth) 50,000 people there. But the place will looked packed, and for OW, 50k would be something of a minor miracle.

So, if I had to choose, give me PPIR. That, or dump Chicago or Kansas and bring in Richmond, or perhaps, Vegas.

[Jag_Warrior]

I wasn't looking for a list of favorites. I'm trying to thinking of what makes sense for running a series. After all, we keep hearing about how it's just a bidness.

Well, won't it come down to whether or not Tony is still willing to give the tracks a share of his ABC money (guaranteed return, no matter the draw)? Outside of Indy, Texas, Chicago and KC, which ones actually make money (and still pay a real sanction fee)? Throw in Milwaukee on the CCWS side and Motegi (assuming manufacturer support) and I have six that might make business sense. The Rio roval might make sense if the politics there are in order now. Would Fontana make $ sense?

Are there 10 oval races that would make financial sense for open wheel formula cars???

[cart7]

My list:

Michigan
Fontana
Indy
Milwaukee
Phoenix
Gateway
Motegi (only if we had to)
Germany
Texas (only 1 race)

[tomahawk]

Bristol, Rockingham (NC), Darlington :eek: :eek:

[Classic Apex]

Milwaukee.

Nothing more...nothing less.

[manic mechanic]

What you need to bear in mind here is that OWRS' principals are convinced that a ChampCar should not run on ovals banked over 10 degrees in the corners for driver safety.

I personally think that their limit is a bit low (considering that Fontana is 14 degrees and ChampCars ran there very successfully).. I would say 15 degrees of banking MAXIMUM and the driver safety issue should not enter in to the equation.

Russo wants to go to Indy (don't try and confuse him with the facts, his mind is made up), and he is the one who told me about the "10 degrees maximum" idea.

I proposed these ovals:

Fontana (14 degrees)
Vegas (8-12 degrees, compound banking)..and yes Doc, the lap dance idea DID cross my mind! :D
Kansas (15 degrees)
Phoenix (9-11 degrees)
Loudon (12 degrees)
The Mile (basically flat)
Possbily Michigan (18 degrees, but needing a new surface).

7 should be the limit on ovals...Approximately 1/3 of the season. The rest of the season should be natural road courses and street circuits, IMHO.

But then, what do I know :p .

manic

[pchall]

I proposed these ovals:

Fontana (14 degrees)
Vegas (8-12 degrees, compound banking)
Kansas (15 degrees)
Phoenix (9-11 degrees)
Loudon (12 degrees)
The Mile (basically flat)
Possbily Michigan (18 degrees, but needing a new surface).

But then, what do I know :p .

manic

Nice choice to skip that ancient track in Speedway. As an oval (even a relatively flat one) it has one major drawback: the fans can't see the entire track and see all the exiciting side-by-side-by-side racin'.

Even Roger Penske has been quoted in Autoweek saying there is no point in racing anywhere where the fans can't see all the action on the track from their seats. Of course, that was in 2001 when he was slowly tipping his hand about going to the IRL.

[Mike Kellner]

I propose we dump ovals. As long as we have one oval on the schedule, we have to keep using an over-size, over-weight car for all the road courses. ChampCar needs to look to its own future, which is road racing, and leave ovals to the Indy Loser's League.

A better question to ask is, where would be the best places to hold races south of the border? I think 10/10 should be 10 US races, and 10 races in other countries. We have races in Mexico. I suggest a race or two in Panama, Puerto Rico, Jamaca, or The Bahamas, and aim for three or four in South America.

If Roger wants reunification, we could run Indy on the road course after Bernie dumps Indy when he has drained Tony's checkbook.

mk

[stroker]

What about aiming for a 15 race schedule with only Milwaukee on it, and then once the series gets back on its feet we can expand back to Lausitzring/Rockingham/Brazil/etc.?

Personally, I think 3 ovals on an 18 race schedule is fine, no more than 5 on a 20 race schedule, max.

I'm done with Indy, "unification" and the rest of it. "Scroom!" (Which, by the way, I think we should adopt as our secondary call to arms after "FTG!" Read it in a Travis McGee novel, and it stuck with me.... )

[Railbird]

I'm basicly with Kellner.

I'd rather see a smaller and quicker car than have to dick around with a bunch of oval promoters who are busy trying to secure another Nascar date.

I think formula car oval racing is dead in America. All the oval fans are ate up with Cup IMO.

[Madmaxfan2]

I thought I would never You Railbird would come to this conclusion, But I am coming around to that school of thought too.

[FanofMario]

"Agreed, the EARL and CART both demonstrated that the market simply isn't there for a lot of these venues, so I can't see what will be different going forward. The only viable ovals are probably IMS, Milwaukee, TMS, and maybe Fontana and Phoenix. A large number of weak events is a bad idea regardless of what series is running the event."

I guess a lot of you guys never got to see a CART race at MIS? :saywhat: With or without the Hanford device, there was a lot of classic oval racing. I would hope that a unified series could build on that. Kansas and Chicago are NASCRAped ovals. I would take a Pikes Peak over that butt ugly Denver race anyday.

[Railbird]

I thought I would never You Railbird would come to this conclusion,

Well I always liked the diversity, matter of fact that was one of CART's attractions back in the hey day. But considering that we are talking about formula shaping decisions I thinks it is better to head off on a different path for once.

[Mike Kellner]

I think part of the problem with ovals is the cars have become too fast on ovals. In order to race at sane speeds, the cars have to be hobbled in ways which ruin the great racing that used to occour on them. If you took all the hobbles off an open wheel car, they would qualify at 260+ on superspeedways, and nearly 200 at Milwaukee. As cool as those numbers sound, there are serious problems with safety both for drivers and spectators, and as we saw at Texas, 5 G cornering loads may be more than drivers can tolerate.

Secondly, there are no spectators for OW oval races anymore. Most OW oval races play in front of nearly empty stands, and Texas looks about half full to me. Even the Indy 500 is no longer selling out.

A lighter, shorter car,without the aero restrictions that are in force to keep oval track speeds down, would make a far better road racing car.

mk

[Turn7]

That is true about slower speeds being needed for oval racing. If you ever got the chance to see the Indy Lights run an oval then you will be able to testify that 188 mph is fast enough and it made for some good racing.