A Whole New Series?

[TedN]

Story Here (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2004/07/07/527852.html)

Ted

[pfc_m_drake]

Hmm...so those rumors about Mario Andretti and Roger Penske talking about unification at the Indy 500 in May were true after all.

Mario talks to Roger about a plan that Al Speyer (Bridgestone/Firestone) has put together for unification at the Indy 500. Roger then meets with Forsythe, Gentilozzi, and Kevin Kalkoven in Detroit. last month.

Sounds like there's a lot of people working to make this happen. It gets more and more interesting...

[Chaos]

I just don't see this happening. Why would Tony George give up the power he has? It's obvious to me the good of the sport was never his priority.

[nrc]

"Now Tony George is the one who needs to understand that as well," Andretti said.

In other words, it's DOA like every other "reunification" plan. Tires are no big deal to Tony as long as long as the Yen keeps coming in from H&T.

[mueber]

Yawn!!!

Quote from article>"The stumbling block is whether IRL owner Tony George would give up the power he now wields in his series."

Tony George is the stumbling block and always has been. I just can't believe that at this late date, people are wasting their time on something that will never happen as long as Boy George is alive. Focus on making Champcar successful. The rest will work itself out.

[Spicoli]

TG is THE most villified individual to ever garce the landscape of Open Wheel Racing in America.


And with DAMN good reason.


Watch this whole thing shrivel up like all the other efforts have. Maybe Speyer needs to focus his gun on the side that WON'T listen. :shakehead

[jonovision_man]

That being said, TG has lost a degree of control to Honda, Toyota, and the team owners. They have a lot invested in the series, and their participation is critical to the IRL. That influence over TG could prove to be of benefit to any unification effort.

:fingerscrossed:

[racer2c]

Just yesterday someone posted a link where Tony made the statement regarding unification "Only if I'm in control".

Count me in as one who believes this is DOA also.

[FTG]

The only one who can unify open wheel is Guy Trollinger. Anyone know what's he up to these days?

[sundaydriver2]

The only way the two come together is if everybody excludes the Idiotgrandson. Earl team owners, Champ Car team owners, and all engine mfgs will have to band together and force the Idiotgrandson into copitulation.

Promise FTG that they will all race at his POS 500 and tell him F off regarding the rest. Have Yoyo and Fonda dig out their old 2.65L turbos. Tell GForce and Dallara to start mfgs new chassis. Figure out a new schedule. Done deal.

The only way I would ever accept a unified series if FTG went back to being a track owner.

[Cmndr Keen]

Tony started the league without Roger et al and I can't see how a little issue like tires will stop him. Someone will show up with tires, no matter how crappy. Someone will race there, no matter how crappy. Dude doesn't care about the product, he wants to be in charge. He'd rather be a slumlord vs sharing the power in something much greater.

[Skater_36]

It's an interesting plan and probably has the best chance of success compared to previous attempts. Both series go by the wayside so everyone compromises. It's clear to everyone that "The vision" didn't work and the only stumbling block looks to be Tony George. If all sides(manufacturers, teams, sponsors, etc.) are giving him pressure, and that looks to be the case, then he may do what's right and just run IMS. The new series might even be able to grab some of the people that are begining to tire of the "Larry, Darrell & Darrell show" called NASCAR.

Based on what I've seen I'm not holding my breath.

[FRANKY]

I just don't see this happening. Why would Tony George give up the power he has? It's obvious to me the good of the sport was never his priority.

I think there are plenty of reasons why it could happen. You only have power when you have sell outs, the 500 wasn't. Someone at IMS may be seeing the writing on the wall.

[mueber]

It's clear to everyone that "The vision" didn't work and the only stumbling block looks to be Tony George. If all sides(manufacturers, teams, sponsors, etc.) are giving him pressure, and that looks to be the case, then he may do what's right and just run IMS.

If that is the case, all the sponsors have to do is leave the IRL and join Champcar. Does anyone see that happening?

[G.]

If that is the case, all the sponsors have to do is leave the IRL and join Champcar. Does anyone see that happening?Not yet. Sponsors want Indy. FTG will take his ball and go home.

I actually think that FTG is running a bit scared right now. All these powerhouse guys scheming behind his back for one series...

Be careful of the cornered rat!

[JoeBob]

What will be interesting is how Tony George reacts to the increasing pressure around him. When Bridgestone/Firestone and Roger Penske step up telling you what you need to do, you have to respond appropriately. (Especially when you consider the influence Penske wields with others he needs - like Toyota and Honda.)

Right now, TG has to feel like his whole world is collapsing around him.

[racer2c]

What will be interesting is how Tony George reacts to the increasing pressure around him. When Bridgestone/Firestone and Roger Penske step up telling you what you need to do, you have to respond appropriately. (Especially when you consider the influence Penske wields with others he needs - like Toyota and Honda.)

Right now, TG has to feel like his whole world is collapsing around him.

and yet, if he had half a brain he could come out smelling like a rose.

His race is crumbling to the ground, his main players are consorting without him, yeah, I bet Tony isn't very happy right now.

[JLMannin]

That being said, TG has lost a degree of control to Honda, Toyota, and the team owners. They have a lot invested in the series, and their participation is critical to the IRL. That influence over TG could prove to be of benefit to any unification effort.

:fingerscrossed:

Yea, just like in 1995. :shakehead

[jonovision_man]

Yea, just like in 1995. :shakehead

But in 1995 he had a very successful Indy 500 in his pocket, and his wallet was much heavier. I suspect he's taken quite a bath getting the IRL up and running, and the Indy 500 has been slipping for a decade.

It's a different situation, and I think he's probably in as much of a crunch to turn his business around as the OWRS guys.

[JLMannin]

But in 1995 he had a very successful Indy 500 in his pocket, and his wallet was much heavier. I suspect he's taken quite a bath getting the IRL up and running, and the Indy 500 has been slipping for a decade.

It's a different situation, and I think he's probably in as much of a crunch to turn his business around as the OWRS guys.

You just don't know what Indy means. Back in 1995, the 500 had ratings in the 8 to 9 range, but the other network races were around 2. Indy only had 4 times the ratings than other network races. Now, Now indy can only pull a 4, but the other races can barely muster a 0.2. Now the indy multiple is up to 20.

Vision accomplished - the 500 is the centerpeice of a series of piss-ant, insignificant races that no one cares about.

[Madmaxfan2]

Do not underestimate TG. This man has endured worse in his life. Try at 16 years of age your father is shot by an employee of your grandpa, and then read in the papers your mother is having an affair with your father's murderer.
Living through a drug filled existence during your twenties, divorcing and living an aimless life. People constantly giving you bad advice. Getting laughed out of a board meeting when you try to exert your control. I believe this man is iron proof at least in public to adverse pressure. He will stick by his guns because quite frankly he really trusts no one. This latest attempt by Penske will fail like all of the others, despite the results of such a failure.
It will take alot to bring TG down. The man is battlehardened, and empty stands, different tire suppliers, plus crappy drivers and crappy cars are acceptable to him. What is not acceptable is publically losing. That is the psychological profile of the man, and if you do not take that into account, failure is guaranteed. IF I paint a bleak picture I am sorry but I think that is the reality of this situation. OWRS needs to go on without the INDY 500 indefinetly if need be for Top Level Road Racing Formula Car to survive. It is too good of a concept to be held hostage by a dysfunctional rich man.

[DaveL]

Sponsors want Indy.

Not like they used to. If it weren't for T&H yen there wouldn't be enough primary sponsorship for a practice session, much less a 33 car grid. And sponsors aren't coming on board for well funded one-offs anymore either.



Vision accomplished - the 500 is the centerpeice of a series of piss-ant, insignificant races that no one cares about.

Yep. At least in 1978 USAC didn't depend on charity from the owners of the NASCAR ovals. Take away the Extortion Packs at selected venues and the Earl has only a couple of races that can draw more than 30,000 people. And if you take away the freebies for even those races you'd really be looking to find an Earl race outside of Texas that can, on its own without handouts, draw more people than the Montreal Expos.

Yep, ol' Anton really fixed things.

[JLMannin]

OWRS needs to go on without the INDY 500 indefinetly if need be for Top Level Road Racing Formula Car to survive. It is too good of a concept to be held hostage by a dysfunctional rich man.

:thumbup: :thumbup: :thumbup:

[jonovision_man]

It's tough to see how the status quo can continue for TG, though, regardless of how tough (stubborn) he is. How low can the Indy 500 go before Honda and Toyota take their marbles and go play somewhere else?

I guess we'll see how things shake out. Egos are funny things.

[racer2c]

... OWRS needs to go on without the INDY 500 indefinetly if need be for Top Level Road Racing Formula Car to survive. It is too good of a concept to be held hostage by a dysfunctional rich man.

OWRS is doing just that. I'm of the opinion that OWRS told Mr. Penske that the concessions would be from his side, not theirs.

[2DB]

I am having a hard time believing the president of the lucky ***** club would even consider stepping down, unless the BOD's, mom and the sisters were to exert some much needed advice. Would the advice be heeded? Do the BOD's even care they are lacking fans in the stands? Are the BOD's so monetarily insulated they can't see the forrest for the trees? Who knows the answers, but I do think Guy, who still is hanging with Mary, was roughly twelve years too late with his anger at Elmer.

Kelvis

[Dougrun]

unification will NEVER happen. Champcar needs to forget the IRL even exists and keep doing what its doing. Run profitable races. I think this whole thing is because they are hurting over there. You don't see us whining about our sport dying.

[scanman]

I believe this man is iron proof at least in public to adverse pressure. He will stick by his guns because quite frankly he really trusts no one. This lattest attempt by Penske will fail like all of the others, despite the results of such a failure.
It will take alot to bring TG down. The man is battlehardened, and empty stands, different tire suppliers, plus crappy drivers and crappy cars are acceptable to him. What is not acceptable is pubically losing. That is the psychological profile of the man, and if you do not take that into account, failure is guaranteed.
Very well put.. :thumbup:
He wants to be KING...no change from when he first started his leege
The worst possible person ever... :thumdown:

[cart7]

That being said, TG has lost a degree of control to Honda, Toyota, and the team owners. They have a lot invested in the series, and their participation is critical to the IRL. That influence over TG could prove to be of benefit to any unification effort.

:fingerscrossed:
Really? He'll roll the museum pieces out before he'll relinquish control. My bet is he's got USAC on standby if the split, part deux occurs. The guy is dumber than dirt.

[Insomniac]

I want unification to happen, but the more and more I hear about it, I hate the idea that Penske is being painted as the savior.

[nrc]

It's tough to see how the status quo can continue for TG, though, regardless of how tough (stubborn) he is. How low can the Indy 500 go before Honda and Toyota take their marbles and go play somewhere else?

That's why I say this whole thing is DOA. Honda and Toyota are the enablers. They're pumping enough money in to the series to keep it alive indefinately. The whole thing would have been resolved by now if Toyota hadn't decided to play in Tony's league and Honda followed. Until someone from Honda or Toyota goes on record saying that this problem must be solved or they're gone, it's all just pointless talk.

[sundaydriver2]

Maybe Bridgestone will have a sit down with Yoyo and Fonda. :laugh:

[jonovision_man]

That's why I say this whole thing is DOA. Honda and Toyota are the enablers. They're pumping enough money in to the series to keep it alive indefinately. The whole thing would have been resolved by now if Toyota hadn't decided to play in Tony's league and Honda followed. Until someone from Honda or Toyota goes on record saying that this problem must be solved or they're gone, it's all just pointless talk.

Agreed, but I think it will come to a head sooner rather than later. The writing is on the wall, we see it, Penske sees it, and soon enough Honda/Toyota will see it. These are for-profit companies, they can't afford to dump millions into a series only to have nobody watch their efforts. That doesn't sell cars.

[Spicoli]

Bridgestone and Firestone are simply saying that their bosses want a unified series if they are to participate.

If there is a unified series - they can possibly get more money to do a primary sponsorship, etc. The amount of money they spend on both leagues combined is a drop in the bucket compared to Homoco & Yoda's investments in EARL alone.

TG isn't going to listen to any of this ****. He's a paranoid, egotistical freak who trust no one and has no real friends. His upbringing taught him that. He is an evil man whose only care is keeping the IMS profitable and that means him in power. The bottom line is that with 3 races there - he is making more money than ever before, and those closest to him like that bottom line. They tell him he's doing good, not because they care about the sport, but because they want the money.

Don't kid yourselves ladies, Evil TG wants nothing to do with reunification.

[mapguy]

The only one who can unify open wheel is Guy Trollinger. Anyone know what's he up to these days?
http://www.raspberryheaven.net/~skater281/images/hank_scorpio_lol.png

[RTKar]

Seems to me we're back to the era of CART/IMS "talks" circa 1998 or so, except with the traitor teams on the other side now, realizing they have dog doo doo on their shoes....costs escalating, unhappy sponsors apparently, pathetic TV ratings...and most importantly seeing the 500 isn't what it once was pre-1996.


Let them sink further...then talk...if you talk at all.

[Racing Truth]

I want unification to happen, but the more and more I hear about it, I hate the idea that Penske is being painted as the savior.

Eh, big deal. Someone was bound to get credit they don't deserve in a situation like this. That's become the nature of this sport.

On another note entirely:

I have to shake my head in utter amazement when I read posts from Champcar and IRL fans claiming that their series is on the upswing while the other is headed for disaster. From that, the claim is that their side should only agree to a deal on their terms.

Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind.

[Spicoli]

To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind.

ChampCar has fans.


EARL has Wilkes and extortion tickets.


I think WE win.

[Railbird]

Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

I've been saying that very thing for a while.

For those who don't think TG will fall in line, I used to say the same thing, but recently there has been some cracks appearing in the armor. Budget cuts and project cancelations are the rule of the day at 16th and Georgetown. For some reason there seems to be some real concerns about this Bridgestone/Firestone threat.

Of course TG continues to buys tarted up toys so who knows?

[RTKar]

ChampCar has fans.


EARL has Wilkes and extortion tickets.


I think WE win.

A moral victory, yes... but we don't have the fans necessary to call for unconditional surrender. Neither series has TV ratings that would make a boardroom swoon

[Spicoli]

A moral victory, yes... but we don't have the fans necessary to call for unconditional surrender. Neither series has TV ratings that would make a boardroom swoon

Moral?

how about this:

Cars: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
Courses: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
TV Production: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
Leadership: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective

People at the gate who buy tickets of their own free will: We win. - objective {not subjective)


So my point is that everything you measure is subjective and just an opinion. (Although 99% of ALL racefans call them crapwagons :gomer: ) Bottom line - if they both suck, we AT LEAST HAVE FANS.

Make sense?

[Railbird]

we AT LEAST HAVE FANS.

Judging from Milwaukee and Cleveland it's now down to the hardcore. Great knowledgable racefans but too few in number to impress the money folks.

They've got to get the "caual fan" back.

Make sense?

Oh, about as much as ever.

[FRANKY]

we AT LEAST HAVE FANS.

Judging from Milwaukee and Cleveland it's now down to the hardcore. Great knowledgable racefans but too few in number to impress the money folks.

They've got to get the "caual fan" back.

Make sense?

Oh, about as much as ever.

Nail on head as usual.

Even more so if anyone tuned into the Busch race at Milwaukee, seats were really packed.

Casual fans are a must, becaue they churn out new fans. The tire deal is nothing that can hurt the Earl, Goodyear wanted to be exclusive a few years ago. But there is something up to be sure.
Talk but deny talking.
:D

[RTKar]

Moral?

how about this:

Cars: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
Courses: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
TV Production: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective
Leadership: EARL's suck, Champs kick ass. - subjective

People at the gate who buy tickets of their own free will: We win. - objective {not subjective)


So my point is that everything you measure is subjective and just an opinion. (Although 99% of ALL racefans call them crapwagons :gomer: ) Bottom line - if they both suck, we AT LEAST HAVE FANS.

Make sense?

I'm in line with 'Bird, Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

...Hell I know the earl sucks. What I'm trying to say is, we could fill every Champcar race with ticket buyers but if no one watches on TV (a situation both series has), open wheel racing is in Big Doo Doo. Time isn't on either side right now. It appears there is a growing rumble amongst the various mfg's for one series...A series I would not want tg leading. Yes, we have the fans along with the growing dissatisfaction of the gomers due to tg's continually revisable vision, that's our moral victory but our victory is hollow if open wheel racing is destroyed. I don't know if Champcar can continue long enough to the point it buries tg and his pathetic series, which from a racing and fans at the track standpoint, it's capable of. I'm just not sure it can continue until TV ratings reach a point that enough sponsors notice and simple supply and demand takes over.

What I'm hoping for, is Champcar to hold on long enough to a point that it can negotiate from a position of power, IF the mfg's demand one series.

[Cmndr Keen]

Do not underestimate TG. This man has endured worse in his life. Try at 16 years of age your father is shot by an employee of your grandpa, and then read in the papers your mother is having an affair with your father's murderer.
Living through a drug filled existence during your twenties, divorcing and living an aimless life. People constantly giving you bad advice. Getting laughed out of a board meeting when you try to exert your control. I believe this man is iron proof at least in public to adverse pressure. He will stick by his guns because quite frankly he really trusts no one. This lattest attempt by Penske will fail like all of the others, despite the results of such a failure.
It will take alot to bring TG down. The man is battlehardened, and empty stands, different tire suppliers, plus crappy drivers and crappy cars are acceptable to him. What is not acceptable is pubically losing. That is the psychological profile of the man, and if you do not take that into account, failure is guaranteed. IF I paint a bleak picture I am sorry but I think that is the reality of this situation. OWRS needs to go on without the INDY 500 indefinetly if need be for Top Level Road Racing Formula Car to survive. It is too good of a concept to be held hostage by a dysfunctional rich man.

The only way Tony agrees to a deal is if he's made to agree.... The guys in it to the death. Gotta go on without him or the speedway. At least till he's dead.

[Spicoli]

I'm in line with 'Bird, Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

...Hell I know the earl sucks. What I'm trying to say is, we could fill every Champcar race with ticket buyers but if no one watches on TV (a situation both series has), open wheel racing is in Big Doo Doo. Time isn't on either side right now. It appears there is a growing rumble amongst the various mfg's for one series...A series I would not want tg leading. Yes, we have the fans along with the growing dissatisfaction of the gomers due to tg's continually revisable vision, that's our moral victory but our victory is hollow if open wheel racing is destroyed. I don't know if Champcar can continue long enough to the point it buries tg and his pathetic series, which from a racing and fans at the track standpoint, it's capable of. I'm just not sure it can continue until TV ratings reach a point that enough sponsors notice and simple supply and demand takes over.

What I'm hoping for, is Champcar to hold on long enough to a point that it can negotiate from a position of power, IF the mfg's demand one series.

You said it yourself:

The last hardcores (TrackForum Gomerati) are also leaving, and soon there will be no one in their stands but homoco employees and 7-11/Phillip Morris employees who are told to go (for free).

That stupid magazine TG pays for by Haymarket/Racer is not worth wiping your bunghole with. No one cares about his league/series. Fans in theseats with extorted tickets just sit there. They don;t know a Helio from a Kanaan from a Whorenish.

At least the ChampCar product has value - and that's what KK sees. He wants consistency, stabilization, and most importantly he listens to what the fans want. Then he devises a way to get that product out to the people. Its not perfect yet, but this guy has the skill, determination, passion, and resources to get this done.

Conversely - TG crams his (latest) vision down eveyone's throats (kicking and screaming) and it just plain fails. When he's got Dependser working an ulcer, you know there is trubble.

I say this whole "olive branch" BS is the tip of the iceberg for trubble @ Gomerville.

The best thing to do is sit back and watch Rome burn.

[Winston Wolfe]

Honda and Toyota are the enablers. They're pumping enough money in to the series to keep it alive indefinately. The whole thing would have been resolved by now if Toyota hadn't decided to play in Tony's league and Honda followed. Until someone from Honda or Toyota goes on record saying that this problem must be solved or they're gone, it's all just pointless talk.

I disagree.
The EARL needed to have the T&H teams, money, drivers, and the stars of CART, which is what they (Pimpski, Gana$$i, Rahole, and the like) throught would tip the balance of power to Tony G. They got it all, and then some, and the TV package, and the "power of the brickyard", all wrapped up with a bow. They put in a bid at the last minute for CART assets (lost), then, in a final attempt to crush CCWS, they orchestrated two teams to leave and DENOUNCE the newly formed CCWS at the eleventh hour and take cars and drivers to the EARL.
THAT is what they needed to do, in their minds, to solidify the demise of CCWS. But it did not work.

If H&T did NOT take their considerable monies, talent, and competition over to the EARL, they would have simply had various CART teams and drivers cherry pick the EARL, and win against the lesser organized and refined teams from the Gomerville 500. It would have continued. TCGR and then Penske proved that was a easy win.

Nope, it is the best thing that could have happened to the newly formed CCWS. THere is only one place to go, and that is UP !!!!

[racer2c]

You said it yourself:

...
The best thing to do is sit back and watch Rome burn.

I'm in! I''ll bring the beer. It won't be long before we read that ol' Rog has confronted Tony and Tony fell on the floor and kicked his feet crying "No, No, No!!"

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Open wheel racing needs something short of an assassination of TG to get rid of him (kidding people!).

But a good old hostile takeover or a coup de tant would do the trick and I'm not kidding about that.

[Formula 409]

I'm in line with 'Bird, Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

If ChampCar is not in a position of power, why does Penske suddenly want to talk? Why is Fred Nation talking about a merger? Why has Mikey suddenly started talking reunification?

ChampCar may not be superior in terms of crowd, ratings and money relative to the rest of sports, but they are the only way the teams stuck in the IRL can survive. They got the teams, they got the Indy 500, they got the tracks, they got the TV contract - and they still can't win. They tried to kill CART a half dozen ways and it hasn't worked. What more can they do to survive? Nothing. There's nothing left.

If those teams have any chance of survival, they have to do it through ChampCar. CCWS has the tracks they want to race at, the fans they need and the credibility the IRL will never have.

[4wheeldrifter]

Seems to me we're back to the era of CART/IMS "talks" circa 1998 or so, except with the traitor teams on the other side now, realizing they have dog doo doo on their shoes....costs escalating, unhappy sponsors apparently, pathetic TV ratings...and most importantly seeing the 500 isn't what it once was pre-1996.


Let them sink further...then talk...if you talk at all.

Gotta agree. Let this one ferment a bit longer and see what happens. Closer to Yoda and Honduh leaving, the better.

[RTKar]

If ChampCar is not in a position of power, why does Penske suddenly want to talk? Why is Fred Nation talking about a merger? Why has Mikey suddenly started talking reunification?


My guess would be, they've heard rumblings of dissatisfaction from Japan. Yes, the crash of the irl would put Champcar in a better strategic position but it wouldn't solve all the obstacles open wheel racing faces in North America. It needs some serious rebuilding.

[Madmaxfan2]

Open wheel racing needs something short of an assassination of TG to get rid of him (kidding people!).

But a good old hostile takeover or a coup de tant would do the trick and I'm not kidding about that.

Unfortunately, you are not too far from the truth.

[jonovision_man]

'bird didn't say Champcars has nothing going for it, there is a lot in this series that is absolutely great. It's a great chassis, there are some excellent races on the schedule (ie. this coming weekend!), there are some excellent hard-core fans, etc.

But not enough has changed since last year to turn the tens of millions of dollars loss into profit, there's no question that KK/PG/GF are pumping cash just to keep the series going. I doubt team assistance is dead, considering the lack of sponsors. They likely expected to have to do this for a few years, so it may not be critical, but I doubt they have the "upper hand".

The IRL is on a similar path - a few more years of propping the thing up, but if it's not showing improvement, will Honda/Toyota/All the teams stay?

The bottom line - as long as both series exist, it's unlikely either will thrive. The whole would be MUCH MORE than the sum of the parts, and if egos can be checked at the door, re-unification would be beneficial to everyone.

TG is likely the guy holding it up... time to put the screws to him, hopefully Penske and Mario are loud and influential enough to get it done.

[Madmaxfan2]

Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

I've been saying that very thing for a while.

For those who don't think TG will fall in line, I used to say the same thing, but recently there has been some cracks appearing in the armor. Budget cuts and project cancelations are the rule of the day at 16th and Georgetown. For some reason there seems to be some real concerns about this Bridgestone/Firestone threat.

Of course TG continues to buys tarted up toys so who knows?

Racewriter and Railbird, you are correct in your statements. However, Railbird, you state that despite the talk of such business actions, TG continues to buy toys, a sign of an out of control CEO who cannot deal with reality and make changes. Therefore the bleak situation still does not register with TG and unification will not happen, no matter how much sense it makes. That is the bottom line, and OWRS has no real choice but to go solo, and keep the concept of top level formula car road racing alive. Roman ruler Nero comes to mind here.

[pfc_m_drake]

I think that some of you who are content to let Rome burn are watching from inside the Coliseum.

[SurfaceUnits]

the coliseum is still standing

[pfc_m_drake]

the coliseum is still standing
In ruins. But if that's what you really want for open-wheel racing, then God bless you.

[SurfaceUnits]

And it's the only thing still standing. Let's see what you look like after 2200 years.

[stroker]

So what happens if Bridgestone et al and a collection of significant players (Newman, Mario, etc.) and team owners (FRP, etc.) are able to come up with a plan for a new series--one that most, if not all of the current EARL teams find more attractive for whatever reason. What then?

[jonovision_man]

So what happens if Bridgestone et al and a collection of significant players (Newman, Mario, etc.) and team owners (FRP, etc.) are able to come up with a plan for a new series--one that most, if not all of the current EARL teams find more attractive for whatever reason. What then?

Fans finally win? :)

[KLang]

It won't happen if FTG won't step aside. There is no indication he would.

[jonovision_man]

It won't happen if FTG won't step aside. There is no indication he would.

He depends on the teams and manufacturers... without them there is no IRL. And no CCWS for that matter.

I suppose he could hemorage even more $$$ just to keep going without them... but makes more sense to do a deal, if he's any kind of businessman at all.

[Madmaxfan2]

So what happens if Bridgestone et al and a collection of significant players (Newman, Mario, etc.) and team owners (FRP, etc.) are able to come up with a plan for a new series--one that most, if not all of the current EARL teams find more attractive for whatever reason. What then?

If that is true, why did they leave CART?

[KLang]

He depends on the teams and manufacturers... without them there is no IRL. And no CCWS for that matter.

I suppose he could hemorage even more $$$ just to keep going without them... but makes more sense to do a deal, if he's any kind of businessman at all.

You can't be serious. If FTG were any kind of businessman we wouldn't be discussing this stuff. The split wouldn't have happened.

[jonovision_man]

You can't be serious. If FTG were any kind of businessman we wouldn't be discussing this stuff. The split wouldn't have happened.

True, but we're tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars later at this point, at what point has he lost enough to make it sting?

The term "throwing good money after bad" seems to apply here!

We all agree (I think) that the IRL is not profitable, even with the teams/manufacturers it's managed to pull from CART... the only thing that could possibly have given him hope was CART's demise, and that didn't happen, could be anywhere from 2 years away to never happenning at all!

[FCYTravis]

WTF?

Why the hell does anyone think TG would give up now? Hell, if the factories pull out he'll finance the "league" out of his own pocket and give everyone some leftover junkyard Chevy GenIIIs to run until he can get major factory backing from Kia or Yugo or something. They'll hook a deal up with Futura for the best in treaded DOT-rated street tires to race on. :shakehead

He made the stupidest decision in open-wheel racing history back in 1995. Why in the world does anyone think he's going to now make a smarter decision????

[Insomniac]

So what happens if Bridgestone et al and a collection of significant players (Newman, Mario, etc.) and team owners (FRP, etc.) are able to come up with a plan for a new series--one that most, if not all of the current EARL teams find more attractive for whatever reason. What then?

No Indy. Nothing else matters to any of them. If CCWS had Indy, no one would care about the IRL. The three amigos should just build their own Indy. ;)

[Dougrun]

A loss experience involves the following five stages of emotional response: (1) denial, (2) bargaining, (3) anger, (4) despair, (5) acceptance.

The IRl is in #2 right now, some are pushing #3 at any moment.

True, neither series will thrive while the other exists. In fact, I doubt the IRL would thrive even without Champcars. NASCAR is too huge because of it's american ties (drivers,sponsors). We need more americans in our series to get casual fans to attend. Thats why mexico and canada are huge.

[Racing Truth]

If ChampCar is not in a position of power, why does Penske suddenly want to talk? Why is Fred Nation talking about a merger? Why has Mikey suddenly started talking reunification?

ChampCar may not be superior in terms of crowd, ratings and money relative to the rest of sports, but they are the only way the teams stuck in the IRL can survive. They got the teams, they got the Indy 500, they got the tracks, they got the TV contract - and they still can't win. They tried to kill CART a half dozen ways and it hasn't worked. What more can they do to survive? Nothing. There's nothing left.

If those teams have any chance of survival, they have to do it through ChampCar. CCWS has the tracks they want to race at, the fans they need and the credibility the IRL will never have.

What we have here folks is something of a logical fallacy. The argument goes "because A, then B." You're saying b/c the IRL is weak and getting weaker (agreed, BTW) that ChampCar is automatically in more power.

Some folks need to take off the rose-colored glasses and look at reality. Just b/c the IRL is weak does NOT mean that CCWS isn't either. They're BOTH weak.

Nobody cares about the IRL and NOBODY cares about Champcar right now. Let's be honest, airing on Spike TV, sometimes tape-delayed, isn't exactly showing strength.

[Racing Truth]

WTF?

Why the hell does anyone think TG would give up now? Hell, if the factories pull out he'll finance the "league" out of his own pocket and give everyone some leftover junkyard Chevy GenIIIs to run until he can get major factory backing from Kia or Yugo or something. They'll hook a deal up with Futura for the best in treaded DOT-rated street tires to race on. :shakehead

He made the stupidest decision in open-wheel racing history back in 1995. Why in the world does anyone think he's going to now make a smarter decision????

But you're assuming in part that the Penskes, AGR's and Floyd's of the world would really go for that. I for one, don't think they would like that one bit.

Sure, he can try to revert back to "The Vision, v. 1.0", but I think its really a bit late for that. He, and the teams are so dependent on Honda and Yoda that to lose them would send the IRL reeling. Plus, do you really think "the little guys" would EVER trust him again?

Mark my words: By 2006 there will be a unified OW series.

[jonovision_man]

He made the stupidest decision in open-wheel racing history back in 1995. Why in the world does anyone think he's going to now make a smarter decision????

Even rats learn to pick the right knob to get food after being shocked a few times. :)

[Madmaxfan2]

True, but we're tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars later at this point, at what point has he lost enough to make it sting?

The term "throwing good money after bad" seems to apply here!

We all agree (I think) that the IRL is not profitable, even with the teams/manufacturers it's managed to pull from CART... the only thing that could possibly have given him hope was CART's demise, and that didn't happen, could be anywhere from 2 years away to never happenning at all!
You miss my stated points. TG's actions are not rooted in sound business decisions. I will go so far as stating it has to do with his preservation of his self esteem as his inherited position as "leader of open wheel racing" How else would you begin to explain the rationalization of the failed enterprise know as the IRL?

[Madmaxfan2]

But you're assuming in part that the Penskes, AGR's and Floyd's of the world would really go for that. I for one, don't think they would like that one bit.

Sure, he can try to revert back to "The Vision, v. 1.0", but I think its really a bit late for that. He, and the teams are so dependent on Honda and Yoda that to lose them would send the IRL reeling. Plus, do you really think "the little guys" would EVER trust him again?

Mark my words: By 2006 there will be a unified OW series.

Only if TG is forced to declare bankruptcy before then.
Mark my words.

[dando]

I'm in line with 'Bird, Folks, hate to break it you, but both series are pretty pathetic right about now. To claim that either side is in a position of power just boggles the mind

Like I stated in another thread, it's the tallest dwarf argument.

-Kevin

[jonovision_man]

You miss my stated points. TG's actions are not rooted in sound business decisions. I will go so far as stating it has to do with his preservation of his self esteem as his inherited position as "leader of open wheel racing" How else would you begin to explain the rationalization of the failed enterprise know as the IRL?

I assume he was dreaming big at the time and actually thought he could pull it off... and really he's made it a lot longer than most of us gave him credit for at the start!

I'm not going as far as to predict TG will make an intelligent business decision that paves the way to a merger, that may not happen. I do expect that there will be pressure from a lot of people to try make it happen, though, and he'd be a fool not to.

[Spicoli]

WTF?

Why the hell does anyone think TG would give up now? Hell, if the factories pull out he'll finance the "league" out of his own pocket and give everyone some leftover junkyard Chevy GenIIIs to run until he can get major factory backing from Kia or Yugo or something. They'll hook a deal up with Futura for the best in treaded DOT-rated street tires to race on. :shakehead



Maybe he'll finally listen to the Gomer Elite @ CrackForum and put the engines back up front "where they belong!". :gomer:

And a little dirt on the track wouldn;t bother them one bit either.

LMFAO.

[Spicoli]

What we have here folks is something of a logical fallacy. The argument goes "because A, then B." You're saying b/c the IRL is weak and getting weaker (agreed, BTW) that ChampCar is automatically in more power.

Some folks need to take off the rose-colored glasses and look at reality. Just b/c the IRL is weak does NOT mean that CCWS isn't either. They're BOTH weak.

Nobody cares about the IRL and NOBODY cares about Champcar right now. Let's be honest, airing on Spike TV, sometimes tape-delayed, isn't exactly showing strength.

then why the **** is Pimpske hell bent on talking to KK?

Nobody seems to be answering that. :shakehead

[Railbird]

Imho

Penske is kicking up dust because he's been to the IRL long enough to know that it ain't happenin'.

He also knows that OWRS has a long tough road to make anything happen.

In other words he knows open wheel racing in America is in the tank at this point in time.

Whether he stands to skim a big sponsor check or just wants to be seen as the mesiah is anyone's guess.

As a fan I get nervous that he can make something happen right now because "right now" would no doubt mean adopting that crap formula and more than likely TG as some form of power figure.

I'd rather watch a pack of Reynards pushed by rebuilt Cosworths for the next five years.

[cart7]

I seem to recall a RACER interview with Cindric right after Penske joined the earl and the jist of what he had to say was, "We're here, but the league was going to have to kick it up a few notches to keep Penske racing interested".

Apparently the captain isn't happy with the speed and number of notches the irl has risen since his membership began.

[RTKar]

then why the **** is Pimpske hell bent on talking to KK?

Nobody seems to be answering that. :shakehead

Wish I knew......You're the "Double Nought Seven" secret agent Spycoli.... :p

[lone_groover]

Hate to sound like Chainy, but Pimp and Cindric the Entertainer can go **** themselves!

:thumdown:

[Mr. Vengeance]

Hate to sound like Chainy, but Pimp and Cindric the Entertainer can go **** themselves!

:thumdown:


Absolutely.

Funny how the guy that did (almost) the most to wreck it all of a sudden wants to fix it... I hope he gets what he deserves.

[Spicoli]

Wish I knew......You're the "Double Nought Seven" secret agent Spycoli.... :p

Nobody can tell me why. I'm going out drinking tomorrow night with some racin fellers, I'll see whut they done got ta say. :gomer:

[Coldfart]

Nobody can tell me why. I'm going out drinking tomorrow night with some racin fellers, I'll see whut they done got ta say. :gomer:

Ricky Treadway's still in tight with some of those guys?

[Formula 409]

What we have here folks is something of a logical fallacy. The argument goes "because A, then B." You're saying b/c the IRL is weak and getting weaker (agreed, BTW) that ChampCar is automatically in more power.

Relative to where the IRL is, yes. ChampCar in more power. The IRL has three major manufacturers, network coverage, the Indy 500, NASCAR ticket extortion plans, and a more recognizable driver line-up. But they still have demonstrated no ability to become the success they pretend to be. The IRL has no power to control the engine lease insanity. They have no power to stay out of road courses. They have no power to keep talent and major sponsors from going to NASCAR. They have no power to improve TV ratings.

ChampCar may not have the money behind it it once did, but it has the power over its' own destiny the IRL doesn't have. CCWS is creating the races and business alliances they need to prosper. They are innovating their way out of the doldrums. If the TV sucks, they can change it. If the engines don't cut it, they can get another manufacturer. If a race isn't getting fans, they can shut it down. If a new rule is crap, they change it.

In the IRL, you have a lot of powerful entities involved, but a power vacuum at the top. In ChampCar the power is in making their own future. In the long term, ChampCar has the edge.

[FCYTravis]

The IRL has thrown everything it can think of at CART - its manufacturers, its teams, its tracks and its drivers.

Yet for all their trying, for all the Clabber Girl cash wasted, Tony still can't get his hands on one thing he so desperately wants - the fans of Champ Car.

He'll never get them. Never. :flame:

All the empty promises and all the "wait till next years" are coming back to haunt Tony. They'll be his downfall.

That's why Champ Car is now and always has been stronger than the IRL - fans. Tony had some once upon a time, but he used them up and flushed them down the toilet like so much effluent. The oval-track guys got lied to, sold the greatest bill of goods in history... and now their disillusionment hangs over the series forever - it's the IRL's great skeleton in the closet.

Tony thinks he can buy everything. He bought Honda and Toyota. He bought Andretti and he bought Fatassi and he bought off Feryendez and he's about to buy off Cigarboy.

Tony can't buy fans.

[Spicoli]

Ricky Treadway's still in tight with some of those guys?

Don't know. I banned myself from there years ago. for those who may not know, Super-rich Dad Fred Treadway built this sports bar on the strip in Broad Ripple several years ago. Its chock full of Vision Version 1.0 Gomer paraphenalia, and does fairly good bidness. Fred made his money in styrofoam or something like that. Ricky's his kid who drove a Inny Fi-Hunnert or 2. I don't know Fred, but Scott Harrington has been known to stumble the sidewalks of the Village in search of snorts and hoes, and Dr. Jack was known in High School to consume epic amounts of Jack Daniels.

See- there I go speaking in fond rememberance of the EARLY (tm) Idiotgrandson's Visions (V 1.0 thru 6.3). I mean, don;t you miss those giuys? Racin' Gardener, Donnie Beechlerand the other wackos?! Damn. About brings a tear to my eye.

Anyway - for a tour of Fred & Ricky's place - click here! (Safe for work) :gomer:

http://www.averagejoes.com/averagejoes.html

And check this out for some history!

http://www.averagejoes.com/the_pub.html

A recent appearance on Bobby Flay’s Food Nation on the Food Network along with a recent remodeling that saw the addition of garage doors that open onto the main strip, Broad Ripple Ave., has put Average Joe’s back at the top of local sports bar action.

And this jewel:

You say you're a race fan! Average Joe's is the favorite hangout of our Co-owner, Fred Treadway. His Treadway Racing team finished 1st and 2nd in the 1997 Indianapolis 500. Pictures of the momentous occasion are scattered throughout the bar, along with pieces of not so lucky cars from the past racing seasons

Man, this is UberGomer wet dream here people.

[FCYTravis]

His Treadway Racing team finished 1st and 2nd in the 1997 Indianapolis 500.
Left unsaid: As soon as the competition rose above the level of American IndyCar Series rejects and backmarker Lights drivers, their team imploded like a matter-antimatter collision.

[nz_climber]

http://www.averagejoes.com/images/fred.jpg

Finally the long awaited picture of the king of gommers :gomer: :eek: :rofl: