View Full Version : Ford Wants To Extend Deal
Interesting article: http://www.autoweek.com/cat_content.mv?content_code=07025159
Ford would like to keep the current arrangement in place through 2006. CART says they want to move to the V10 for 2005, and if Ford wants to extend their contract, "It would have to be a pretty sweet deal."
KobySon
02-10-03, 06:11 PM
Why do they want to keep the deal for another year? Is the ROI finally making sense now that they don't have to pour in tons of R'n D $?
mnkywrch
02-10-03, 08:47 PM
Maybe they want to stay in CART but they can't afford to develop a V10.
Napoleon
02-10-03, 08:59 PM
Originally posted by mnkywrch
Maybe they want to stay in CART but they can't afford to develop a V10.
Don't they have one?
mnkywrch
02-10-03, 10:20 PM
Originally posted by Napoleon
Don't they have one?
Sure, they've got one. Let's hope Jordan doesn't beat Jaguar with it too often. ;)
After seeing the amount of "new" in the "spec" motor for 2003, I would suspect that doing a V10 for CART would, more than likely, require (basically) an all-new motor that they may not have the R&D funds for.
I am not an engineer and I haven't played one on TV but I would think that they might have some trouble making a V10 with 750hp that could last 1200 miles. I say this because I am under the impression current F1 cars make between 800-850hp. The current Champcar with the turbo seems more easily tuned by regulating the boost and rpms.
Personally I fall into the new small engine with big turbo boost camp. Seems this group is getting smaller.
patm
mexican
02-11-03, 02:07 AM
Originally posted by patm
Personally I fall into the new small engine with big turbo boost camp. Seems this group is getting smaller.
patm
you are not alone, but that is just us fans talking
Napoleon
02-11-03, 06:56 AM
Originally posted by patm
Personally I fall into the new small engine with big turbo boost camp.
I'm with you on this one.
I hope we see a 1.5L 4cyl in 2005 loaded with boost.. I understand Ford's view though, they see an opportunity to turn a profit here, you can't really blame them after all those years of essentially losing money to the black hole of R&D.
KobySon
02-11-03, 10:17 AM
more coffee please -
4 edit cyl editoff is the way.
JLMannin
02-11-03, 12:21 PM
Originally posted by patm
Personally I fall into the new small engine with big turbo boost camp
Me, too. It preserves the CART heritage.
Warlock!
02-11-03, 12:36 PM
Well, since we seem to be voting (albeit a vote of little consequence), lemme throw in my props for the 4 x Turbo. Ya know... just to get another measly 20+ years outta the same formula...
Winter Warlock!
According to folks who saw Pook's speech to the SCCA when they announced the SCCA credentialing requirements, Pook said that they have a Japanese manufacturer ready to return to CART with a V10 program.
As I see it, the problem is that when CART returns to competition among engine manufacturers costs are going to rise again. Hopefully they can keep them under better control than before, but some increase is inevitable. They need to make sure that their new teams can support that level of costs before they jump back in.
JLMannin
02-11-03, 06:27 PM
Originally posted by nrc
According to folks who saw Pook's speech to the SCCA when they announced the SCCA credentialing requirements, Pook said that they have a Japanese manufacturer ready to return to CART with a V10 program.
Based on Lee White's conduct at the awards banquet, that Japaneese engine manufacturer is most likely Toyota.
Toyota is NASCAR Bound. Jayski is reporting that the announcement should come pretty soon. (They'll start in Trucks and go from there.)
In Mexico City, it was Honda who told CART, "it was nice working with you, please keep us informed of what you're working on for the new formula." (I even heard one story that Honda had actually submitted a proposal for the new forumla.)
It is also Honda who uses racing to train engineers, not build brand awareness. Thats a good fit for CART.
Toyota races to get their name out there. Thats a good fit for NASCAR.
Don Quixote
02-11-03, 07:12 PM
I sure hope someone is considering the noise levels expected from normally aspirated v-10's, and the resulting effect on the locals at street venues and some road courses as well. I too vote for the small displacement turbo for all the reasons we have been rehashing for a long time.
We all got spoiled in the late 90's with 4 engine manufacturers, but historically it only tends to be 2. Lookup USAC circa '73 and it's just Offy vs Ford... then lookup CART circa '93 and it's just Ford vs Chevy.
If we could get back to just Ford vs Honda, that would be fine. An I4 turbo would seem the most logical engine, but if not, Honda could probably just restart their 2.65L V8 turbo program. Without any ovals on the schedule in the near future (a real possibility) the current turbo V8 is just fine.
Jag_Warrior
02-12-03, 04:25 AM
Does anyone have a rough idea of what Ford/Cosworth spent (re) developing this year's 2.65 turbo? Just curious. I'd like to have some idea of what it costs to develop a competitive racing engine these days.
And any word on what sort of relationship CART has with Judd now? Whether CART goes with a V10 or I-4 turbo, it would be nice to see a couple or three manufacturers who wouldn't beat the sport to death, trying to outspend each other.
BTW, hi guys & gals!
WickerBill
02-12-03, 06:54 AM
J_W, welcome, welcome, welcome. Glad to have you.
Chris, I'm of the understanding that the 2.65 has been bent and prodded about as far as it can go. Doesn't that mean that if we keep it and Honda comes back in, the price point per extra HP is instantly incredibly high?
I think a new formula is the way to go -- and based on all of the forum experts opinions I've read ( ;) ), I'm going to have to say I prefer the idea of a smaller displacement turbo. However, with more and more companies making really small six cylinder production engines, what's the drawback to a 1.6L 6 instead of a 1.5L 4?
Gurneyflap
02-12-03, 10:24 AM
So, with an I, flat or V turbo 4 the cars could be smaller, shorter, lighter and faster on most circuits. (gee, the tracks suddenly get "wider") Would this elimunate any ovals bigger than 1.0 mi.? And why go to 1.5? What's wrong with 2.0? Example: How much better/faster would a turbo F-Atlantic car of today perform? (few changes, just a more powerful engine) I'd like to see a side-by-side test of that.
Jag_Warrior
02-12-03, 12:21 PM
Thanks, WickerBill.
The reason I was curious about development costs for the old formula is because I'm curious about developmet costs for a new formula. I'm just looking for a ballpark figure.
I read one argument that the I-4 would be very expensive to develop - especially to get it to a point of decent reliability and sufficient power. I'm not an engineer, but my mind goes to the LMP675 class in ACO/ALMS racing. Those engines aren't being developed by mega-bucks companies, nor run by mega-bucks teams. True, they don't make quite enough horsepower in their current form for this type of racing, but they're restricted by rule - and yet they're knocking on 500 horsepower. They could be dialed up and they could be further developed. So, why wouldn't that work for CART?
Whether a small 4 or a small 6 turbo, it just seems that CART going this route would attract a whole new demographic in North America, that currently has no awareness of CART. When I think of V10's, I think of Formula One (that's good, I guess), but I also think of the Dodge Viper. Cool car, but the engine isn't as "exotic" as what's under the hood of the average kid's bling-bling Honda.
lateralus42
02-14-03, 01:27 AM
Check out this good article about Cosworth and their effect on F1, it is totally relevant to what is happening to CART this year. CART would be wise to consider Davis's proposal IMO.
http://www.pitpass.com/features/feature.cfm?featuresid=505&page=1
I'm still in the 2.0l stock heads and block turbo camp.
The only way I can see an engine formula "shared" with F1 making any sense would be if F1 economy measures stipulated a new V8 with a displacement of 2.4l.
Jag_Warrior
02-15-03, 02:32 AM
Originally posted by lateralus42
http://www.pitpass.com/features/feature.cfm?featuresid=505&page=1
Very well written. I enjoyed that. Thanks for posting it.
oddlycalm
02-19-03, 09:31 PM
Originally posted by Don Quixote
I sure hope someone is considering the noise levels expected from normally aspirated v-10's, and the resulting effect on the locals at street venues and some road courses as well. I too vote for the small displacement turbo for all the reasons we have been rehashing for a long time.
I plan to raise this issue at the Town Meeting if I get the chance. Portland, while a natural road course, is in the middle of an urban area. All the street races are effected in the same way though. I would like to put it out there that there is significant fan interest in the 1.5L turbo for the long term. I don't care if it's a V6 or I4, but an I4 is more compact.
To me the V10 NA is totally inappropriate to the series CART seems to be developing into, i.e. urban.
I plan to raise this issue at the Town Meeting if I get the chance.
Please do... I hope a lot of people bring up the engine issue at the meeting. Some of us would really like to know why they're so gung-ho on a V10 which will be similar but NOT REALLY compatible with F1... while the interest in a small turbo is still high, and makes a lot of sense instead.
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