Tony Counteractions to Roger's actions

[Madmaxfan2]

Lets suppose that TG rebuffs RP's recent overtures of unification, which is highly likely to happen. Roger actually gets Bridgestone, Toyota, Honda, GM, plus Dallera and G-Force to leave the IRL What will TG do? Within 48 hours of Penske publically annoucing all efforts to unify have failed, TG will call a news conference and announce that plans are taking shape to ensure that the IRL and the INDY 500 have a bright future. Within two week TG call another news conference in which Hoosier racing tires is named the new tire supplier of the IRL. TG will run through Hoosier accomplishments such as Winston Cup racing and mention the AIS, which used old champ cars as basis of that series, as qualifiactions that Hoosier is capable. At about two months after the Penske annoucement, TG calls another press conference, states that Riley & Scott and MultiMatic as the new approved chassis suppliers to the IRL. Riley and Scott have had experience as chassis suppliers ot the IRL in the past, but Multimatic has actually constructed Grand AM cars and show impressive capabilites to perform. The final shoe will drop when TG annouces to return the IRL basics and base new engines regulations on turbo-charged stock block V-6 engines ( Menard & Buick) with only private engine builders allowed and prohibitation of engine leasing arrangements. At this point, Tony will annouce that AJ Foyt Enterprises has already ordered the first Riley & Scott chassis with GM V-6 engines built by Roush Industries, while John Menard will bring back the Sonny Meyer led Menard based stock block V-6 engine effort with Multimatic chassis. In closing, TG will mention that other interested parties have been in contact with him and other promising announcements are just days away.

My point, don't under estimate TG. Even if Roger pulls out with his partners in tow, TG will have a plan. Bottom line, OWRS must continue to concentrate on it's own path, and remember that the real Indy 500 died in 1995, never to be as great of an event as it once was.

[Coldfart]

My point, don't under estimate TG...TG will have money.

sorry, just needed to correct you there.

[cart7]

One, I don't think GM will leave the fold. Matter of fact, I think they'd love to be the exclusive supplier again. Two, T & H need only drop financial support to they're various teams to create utter chaos in the earl right now. Three, Tony's always got the Big Red phone to USAC. If he needs a few dozen Silvercrowns to fill the May race he could get them in a heartbeat, Hell, I'll bet 33rd place pays better than any A main out there. Four, I do believe he'll be the one who puts the kaibash on any unification plans. His desire to be king is a stumbling block no one can get around.

[Madmaxfan2]

One, I don't think GM will leave the fold. Matter of fact, I think they'd love to be the exclusive supplier again. Two, T & H need only drop financial support to they're various teams to create utter chaos in the earl right now. Three, Tony's always got the Big Red phone to USAC. If he needs a few dozen Silvercrowns to fill the May race he could get them in a heartbeat, Hell, I'll bet 33rd place pays better than any A main out there. Four, I do believe he'll be the one who puts the kaibash on any unification plans. His desire to be king is a stumbling block no one can get around.

I don't think he will get the Big red phone. You can only pull that trick so many times.

[stroker]

Lets suppose that TG rebuffs RP's recent overtures of unification, which is highly likely to happen....

My point, don't under estimate TG. Even if Roger pulls out with his partners in tow, TG will have a plan. Bottom line, OWRS must continue to concentrate on it's own path, and remember that the real Indy 500 died in 1995, never to be as great of an event as it once was.

Good scenario--you've articulated what's been bouncing around in my empty skull quite well.

But I can't help wondering that what you're leaving out is the reaction to/the impact of those actions in the rest of the industry. If you were Goodyear/Michelin/Bridgestone/etc. what part of that scenario leads you to believe that the "new" IRL is a good promotional investment? What makes you want to sink money into it? If I were a potential "partner" the only conclusion I could draw is that TG isn't interested in mutual promotion--that he's only interested in promoting himself. If he wanted to buy chassis/powerplants/tires/whatever from me, I'd be happy to sell to him on a cash and carry basis--but if he tries the old "think of the promotional value of supporting the (my) series" line I'd laugh in his face.

The net result of your scenario is that the Indy 500 runs formula kit cars for cost with no industry investment for the remainder of TG's myopic life. Champ Car, in the meantime, continues the long slog back to prominence per your last line which is exactly right.

That's my reaction, anyway, worth exactly what you paid for it.

[Madmaxfan2]

Good scenario--you've articulated what's been bouncing around in my empty skull quite well.

But I can't help wondering that what you're leaving out is the reaction to/the impact of those actions in the rest of the industry. If you were Goodyear/Michelin/Bridgestone/etc. what part of that scenario leads you to believe that the "new" IRL is a good promotional investment? What makes you want to sink money into it? If I were a potential "partner" the only conclusion I could draw is that TG isn't interested in mutual promotion--that he's only interested in promoting himself. If he wanted to buy chassis/powerplants/tires/whatever from me, I'd be happy to sell to him on a cash and carry basis--but if he tries the old "think of the promotional value of supporting the (my) series" line I'd laugh in his face.

The net result of your scenario is that the Indy 500 runs formula kit cars for cost with no industry investment for the remainder of TG's myopic life. Champ Car, in the meantime, continues the long slog back to prominence per your last line which is exactly right.

That's my reaction, anyway, worth exactly what you paid for it.

The scenerio I have laid does not make the premise of a good investment, neither did the original version of the IRL. Somehow, there will be willing players who want to claim they are in the Indy 500, a lesson not to be fogotten or it will be repeated.

[Steve99]

Goodyear wanted to get a sole-supplier arrangement a few years ago. They would probably be interested.

[Lizzerd]

Do you really mean "sole-providor"? Or, should it be "soul-provider"?

[mapguy]

Do you really mean "sole-providor"? Or, should it be "soul-provider"?

I prefer Haddock thank you very much..

[indyfan31]

I prefer Haddock thank you very much..

Really? What do you usually take for a haddock?

[mapguy]

Really? What do you usually take for a haddock?

chips, with tartar sauce and chippy sauce.

[indyfan31]

chips, with tartar sauce and chippy sauce.
:laugh: Not a Marx Bros fan, eh?

[RaceGrrl]

"Halibut IS jugfish!"

[pchall]

I had a haddock once. The doc told me to take two aspirin and call him again in the morning.

[indyfan31]

Sometimes I take an asprin, sometimes I take a calomel.

[Chitowncartfreak]

I had a haddock once. The doc told me to take two aspirin and call him again in the morning.

Asprin? I'll take off my belt and show you an asprin!

[oddlycalm]

Roger actually gets Bridgestone, Toyota, Honda, GM, plus Dallera and G-Force to leave the IRL

And go where to do what? Lack of unification (a near certaintly) isn't likely to result in anyone actually going anywhere, Penske included. Wishful thinking and hot air.

I do agree with your assesment that TG would be able to push on ad nauseum even if most everyone walked away. Anyone that was concerned with quality and real racing didn't watch the EARL in the first place and the crossover teams haven't added any audience, so the chances of him losing what audience exists, regardless of equipment, is unlikely. TG will still take his hammer to work every day, and spend his days hitting him with it as he does now.

oc

[Formula 409]

There are always suppliers who can step in. This goes for ChampCar and the IRL.

But if T&H and Penske leave, the IRL loses so much it would be near impossible to recover. If the Japanese go, you lose Motegi. You lose Motegi, you lose the Japanese driver contingent: Takagi & Matsuura (plus the extra one or two for Indy). Honda support dries up: AGR is down to two cars, Rahal to one. Penske takes his two with him. Fernandez loses his money and goes away. Nunn closes shop. This leaves you with 13 cars for the series. 23 cars ran on T&H power at Indy. Maybe half of those get picked up by Chevy and an new manufacturer. That's twenty one cars. Not to mention Kelley, Patrick and Dreyer & Rheinbold are already on the edge. Access is as good as gone. That drops you down close to a single digit car count.

A T&H pullout would be a nuclear disaster for the IRL. I don't care how many Hoosiers and MultiMatics get involved. TG may have alternatives, but they will not and cannot fill the void a massive pullout would leave.

[Jag_Warrior]

My point, don't under estimate TG. Even if Roger pulls out with his partners in tow, TG will have a plan. Bottom line, OWRS must continue to concentrate on it's own path, and remember that the real Indy 500 died in 1995, never to be as great of an event as it once was.

I'd never underestimate a man whose brain is so fried from 80's powder binges that his most intelligent answer to most questions is, I don't know. I've heard his followers wish for Toyota and Honda's departure. Let 'em go. We'd rather have small block NASCAR style engines anyway - and Hendrick, Yates and Roush will build them for us.

Isn't there a Monty Python skit where a knight gets his body parts hacked off and says, I've got you where I want you now... or something like that?

I fully believe a cornered sewer rat always has a plan for survival. But I believe this time around, ABC will exercise some previously unknown clause and place any unbadged, small block engine war on ESPN2... just after the donut eating contest (that was actually on ESPN2 last night... how f'ed up is ESPN these days?!). Just like the lil German dude with the funny moustache, George will either control (what's left of) American open wheel formula car racing, or he'll drive it into the ground.

[oddlycalm]

George will either control (what's left of) American open wheel formula car racing, or he'll drive it into the ground.

Attention ground! Prepare for impact.

oc

[Racing Truth]

Look, I don't know where this will go. Being certain of anything in this sport probably reveals a psychosis rather than a gift.

That said, I have indicated my belief that if those involved push hard enough, TG will almost have to capitulate.

The basic premise in this thread is that TG can essentially revert back to "IRL, v 1.0." Sorry, but I think that ship has sailed. It survived once, but I suspect that many of the old teams and audience won't be convinced. Besides, where would these teams come from? Thin air?

Who knows? Maybe he'd try saying he was fooled by Penske, et al, and that he was "appalled" at how costs had again. He could try that. I just don't see it working.

[Madmaxfan2]

I believe there enough folks out there who want to be connected to the INDY 500, on matter how it has fallen in stature in our eyes. TG can count on that.

[stroker]

Guys, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake or I'm not seeing the distinctions everyone's making.

It seems to me that the threshold of "big time" is when you've got companies throwing money at your series using it as a promotional tool. This clearly applies to F1 and Nascar (although it's pretty clear the amount of money today isn't sustainable, but that's an issue for another thread).

Both the IRL and CART are basically living hand-to-mouth right now. Ford seems to want to say FU to TG because of the way he treated them in the past and Ford may see some legitimate promotional benefit for the amount of money they're investing. Bridgestone is clearly seeing some unnecessary duplication of expenses. Nobody appears to be disputing that either Champ Car or the IRL can exist on a cash basis, whether it's with spec engines/chassis etc. Neither series has a serious title sponsor, and until one series "wins" neither is likely to.

Max' original post pointed out that TG might come up with an emergency parachute. I think he's probably correct for the reasons he provided. My point is that there may be a seismic shift going on right now--FRP's column was the rumbling we heard. There's a difference between companies being willing to leave/not entering open wheel because it's seen as an ineffective promotional vehicle and companies being willing to actively pursue the formation of an alternative series. I think we might be seeing some of the latter. If that's what's happening I think it's new and I think it's significant.

While nobody would argue that the path CART/Champ Car/OWRS followed to where it is today was the optimal route, I see the series as in a position to hold it's position and ultimately go back on the offensive. Unlike F1, Champ Car has costs under control. Champ Car can build on that. Granted, Champ Car doesn't have mfg support like F1 does. That may come with time, but this time it'll be by choice, not by necessity.

Unlike the IRL, PG/KK/GF have legitimate business acumen and aren't likely to make strategic errors. TG, on the other hand, has clearly crippled a revered institution and unless he reverses himself he's going to drive it into irrelevance (if he hasn't done so already).

Just a rhetorical question--do you think there are more die-hard Indy fans (ala Defender) or more roadracing fans in the US? I wish I knew of somebody on the board who was a legitimate marketing/survey expert...

[Madmaxfan2]

Look at the grass roots level. SCCA road racing is pretty stable. No roads racing tracks have closed recently. However, some of the USAC legendary tracks are in trouble. The "hollowed" high banks of Winchester speedway are closed for this season, wih no reopening date. Not many USAC events are televised. Based on that, I would say there are maore hard core road racing fans than USAC gomers , which are a aging dying breed. Another reason is as someone else eluded to, small town midwestern business men who sponsors most USAC entires no longer have the necessary amounts of $$$ to stay in racing and WALMART has probably put many of them out of business.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Look at the grass roots level. SCCA road racing is pretty stable. No roads racing tracks have closed recently. However, some of the USAC legendary tracks are in trouble. The "hollowed" high banks of Winchester speedway are closed for this season, wih no reopening date. Not many USAC events are televised. Based on that, I would say there are maore hard core road racing fans than USAC gomers , which are a aging dying breed. Another reason is as someone else eluded to, small town midwestern business men who sponsors most USAC entires no longer have the necessary amounts of $$$ to stay in racing and WALMART has probably put many of them out of business.

That is a horribly flawed argument. The reason that no road courses shut down is because of the participants, not because of the fans. There are hundreds or even thousands more fans at a USAC event than at any SCCA regional or national, but as long as there are hundreds of guys with the $$$ to pay to road race, the tracks are going to stay in business. Why do you think so few road courses in this country actually hold spectator events?

[pchall]

I believe there enough folks out there who want to be connected to the INDY 500, on matter how it has fallen in stature in our eyes. TG can count on that.


Hmmm... just how many Dependsers are there and how many actually buy tickets?

[JohnHKart]

I'd never underestimate a man whose brain is so fried from 80's powder binges that his most intelligent answer to most questions is, I don't know. I've heard his followers wish for Toyota and Honda's departure. Let 'em go. We'd rather have small block NASCAR style engines anyway - and Hendrick, Yates and Roush will build them for us.

Isn't there a Monty Python skit where a knight gets his body parts hacked off and says, I've got you where I want you now... or something like that?
just after the donut eating contest (that was actually on ESPN2 last night... how f'ed up is ESPN these days?!). Just like the lil German dude with the funny moustache, George will either control (what's left of) American open
wheel formula car racing, or he'll drive it into the ground.

Espn, like VH1, has spun itself to nearly complete irrelevance in my world. Other than NHRA.

John

[CANADIAN HOTSPUR]

Guys, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake or I'm not seeing the distinctions everyone's making.

It seems to me that the threshold of "big time" is when you've got companies throwing money at your series using it as a promotional tool. This clearly applies to F1 and Nascar (although it's pretty clear the amount of money today isn't sustainable, but that's an issue for another thread).

Both the IRL and CART are basically living hand-to-mouth right now. Ford seems to want to say FU to TG because of the way he treated them in the past and Ford may see some legitimate promotional benefit for the amount of money they're investing. Bridgestone is clearly seeing some unnecessary duplication of expenses. Nobody appears to be disputing that either Champ Car or the IRL can exist on a cash basis, whether it's with spec engines/chassis etc. Neither series has a serious title sponsor, and until one series "wins" neither is likely to.

Max' original post pointed out that TG might come up with an emergency parachute. I think he's probably correct for the reasons he provided. My point is that there may be a seismic shift going on right now--FRP's column was the rumbling we heard. There's a difference between companies being willing to leave/not entering open wheel because it's seen as an ineffective promotional vehicle and companies being willing to actively pursue the formation of an alternative series. I think we might be seeing some of the latter. If that's what's happening I think it's new and I think it's significant.

While nobody would argue that the path CART/Champ Car/OWRS followed to where it is today was the optimal route, I see the series as in a position to hold it's position and ultimately go back on the offensive. Unlike F1, Champ Car has costs under control. Champ Car can build on that. Granted, Champ Car doesn't have mfg support like F1 does. That may come with time, but this time it'll be by choice, not by necessity.

Unlike the IRL, PG/KK/GF have legitimate business acumen and aren't likely to make strategic errors. TG, on the other hand, has clearly crippled a revered institution and unless he reverses himself he's going to drive it into irrelevance (if he hasn't done so already).

Just a rhetorical question--do you think there are more die-hard Indy fans (ala Defender) or more roadracing fans in the US? I wish I knew of somebody on the board who was a legitimate marketing/survey expert...

[CANADIAN HOTSPUR]

Guys, maybe I'm just slow on the uptake or I'm not seeing the distinctions everyone's making.

It seems to me that the threshold of "big time" is when you've got companies throwing money at your series using it as a promotional tool. This clearly applies to F1 and Nascar (although it's pretty clear the amount of money today isn't sustainable, but that's an issue for another thread).

Both the IRL and CART are basically living hand-to-mouth right now. Ford seems to want to say FU to TG because of the way he treated them in the past and Ford may see some legitimate promotional benefit for the amount of money they're investing. Bridgestone is clearly seeing some unnecessary duplication of expenses. Nobody appears to be disputing that either Champ Car or the IRL can exist on a cash basis, whether it's with spec engines/chassis etc. Neither series has a serious title sponsor, and until one series "wins" neither is likely to.

Max' original post pointed out that TG might come up with an emergency parachute. I think he's probably correct for the reasons he provided. My point is that there may be a seismic shift going on right now--FRP's column was the rumbling we heard. There's a difference between companies being willing to leave/not entering open wheel because it's seen as an ineffective promotional vehicle and companies being willing to actively pursue the formation of an alternative series. I think we might be seeing some of the latter. If that's what's happening I think it's new and I think it's significant.

While nobody would argue that the path CART/Champ Car/OWRS followed to where it is today was the optimal route, I see the series as in a position to hold it's position and ultimately go back on the offensive. Unlike F1, Champ Car has costs under control. Champ Car can build on that. Granted, Champ Car doesn't have mfg support like F1 does. That may come with time, but this time it'll be by choice, not by necessity.

Unlike the IRL, PG/KK/GF have legitimate business acumen and aren't likely to make strategic errors. TG, on the other hand, has clearly crippled a revered institution and unless he reverses himself he's going to drive it into irrelevance (if he hasn't done so already).

Just a rhetorical question--do you think there are more die-hard Indy fans (ala Defender) or more roadracing fans in the US? I wish I knew of somebody on the board who was a legitimate marketing/survey expert...
Sorry folks,buggered up on the last post!In regards to your question at the end on which racing series has a greater fan base,I suggest you look for your answer where i assume both sets of fans tend to mingle.The message board over at speedtv has discussion forums for both series and also tech dicussions for both.If you look at the total number of topics and posts for each,it appears interest in champ car far surpasses the irl.Tho hardly scientific,it is probably telling.

[Cam]

Sorry folks,buggered up on the last post!In regards to your question at the end on which racing series has a greater fan base,I suggest you look for your answer where i assume both sets of fans tend to mingle.The message board over at speedtv has discussion forums for both series and also tech dicussions for both.If you look at the total number of topics and posts for each,it appears interest in champ car far surpasses the irl.Tho hardly scientific,it is probably telling.

So, SpudNet is now irrelevant? :gomer: ;)

[Peter Venkman]

I believe there enough folks out there who want to be connected to the INDY 500, on matter how it has fallen in stature in our eyes. TG can count on that.


And one of those people is Roger S. Penske.

Bank on it.

[pchall]

And one of those people is Roger S. Penske.

Bank on it.

Ghost of Indy Busters.

I'm working on the screenplay now. I just need to know if Estelle Warren is a creature of Evil or just a supplicant to the devilmaster.