View Full Version : Ok PT lovers (spoilers)
Dead on RT.
I was bitchin' about that at the bar, fewer FCYs and quicker clean ups after some of the minor deals should be on the top of the "to do" list if the three amigos expect to take this act back to the mainstream.
Amen. It's night and day between F1 and CCWS in this area. Too many lengthy cautions robbed the fans and resulted in a timed race. :(
-Kevin
Cmndr Keen
07-12-04, 11:56 PM
You guys are killin' me. "At least it wasn't boring..." :rolleyes:
Like the choices are:
a) No passing
b) Drive like a selfish little boy and throw your car anywhere you want and if there's somebody there, BLAM! Little pieces of car all over the track, full course yellow. Less people to RACE.
Hey, PT has talent - no question about it. And, I've been a fan of his. I like people that aren't afraid to try something brave -- especially if they can pull it off.
But that doesn't mean it's okay to drive like you're the only one on the track.
It's not just about bravado, it's about skill and good judgement. I love spectacular passes and driving but not at the expense of everybody else on the track AND all those unnecessary full course yellows.
Full course yellows are Champ Cars choice. There's gotta be a way to get this done with partial yellows. Anyways, between A and B, there's lotsa room for great racing and I certainly don't think Sunday was A or B.... The only way these guys are gonna learn when to push a position and when not to is by getting burned a few times. The point I have about the whole thing and this ensuing "topic" is simple, really.
1. Champ Car never was a series with lotsa of damage free passing. We just had more cars to bend up and the back markers new better than to push a position and take out a front runner.
2. The hand wringing and calling for race suspensions is ridiculous. If we're gonna go down that road, let's suspend Jay Dub and Tags for their antics last week. In fact, let's suspend any driver who takes another out. He tried to make a pass and did'nt have the skill and good judgement to pull it off.... I hope Champ Car doesn't kill the will of drivers to push the envelope and revert back to follow the leader, "let's get em in the pits", type racing.
In reality, I don't think this little "firestorm" has much to do with the incidents as it does the fact that PT that was at the center of them.... Is he being picked on? Maybe, maybe not. Fact is, dude is a polarizing figure that many of us love or hate with not much middle ground. Another fact is, spin as people might, you can't get around the guy is fast and has skills. The same incidents Sunday are seen differently depending on what side of the PT fence your on...
At the end of the day, Champ Cars on street courses have always been a recipe for bent chassis and fist fights. Never was F1, thank god.
Robstar
07-13-04, 05:34 AM
FINALLY !!! :thumbup:
Watched the race, as it was on @ 1:30am Tuesday here... :rolleyes:
Gotta say PT was a dickhead fullstop.
F'n awesome race though & I put PT's antics down to patriotism & home crowd stuff - "Thrill from The Hill" & all that... :D
Cheers
Rob
:)
I think that we can give The Golden Doilie award to about half of the babies on this thread.
http://www.oudverlaat.nl/geboren/images/crying%20baby.gif
RaceChic
07-13-04, 07:09 AM
The race was phenominal. If you could market it and use it as a tool for every potential new fan that you could possibly bring to a race, we'd have no problems and would be in business.
PT has a history of being aggressive. One bad day does not make a lost cause.
Rogue Leader
07-13-04, 07:54 AM
What was ridiculous about it though is that PT Could have WON that race had he kept his emotion in check. While he spent his time punting people and serving penalties SB drove away... Acting just as agressive but with a bit of restraint could have put hi on Bourdais, because SB was the only guy who it really would have helped him to punt!
Not so sure PT had enough for SB. It sure would be nice to see someone challange SB to see how he would react.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 11:15 AM
Not so sure PT had enough for SB. It sure would be nice to see someone challange SB to see how he would react.
I would've liked to see lap one finish to see if PT had it then. Bruno and Mario just had to collide! :)
Dirty Sanchez
07-13-04, 11:24 AM
I would like to see lap 1 finish under green more than once this year. :thumdown:
Insomniac
07-13-04, 01:39 PM
I would like to see lap 1 finish under green at least once this year. :thumdown:
Monterrey finished lap one under green.
Dirty Sanchez
07-13-04, 02:04 PM
Oh yeah... looks like Lap 2 run under full course caution?
LINK (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/PDF/Results/2004/20040523PDFR_0005.pdf)
Insomniac
07-13-04, 03:09 PM
Oh yeah... looks like Lap 2 run under full course caution?
LINK (http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Content/PDF/Results/2004/20040523PDFR_0005.pdf)
Sorry, you're wrong on this one. The caution was on lap 2 when mario put a wheel off and spun. They completed the first lap.
Dirty Sanchez
07-13-04, 03:15 PM
Thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:
I enjoyed the race, but I think Tracy drove like an idiot. How many of us could see his punts coming 3 seconds before he decided his moves? I sure could. He looked like he was driving a video game rather than a top-level racecar.
And for once I thought Bruno would admit fault. Jeez, it's the start of the race and he's surprised someone is by his side on the first lap?
I wish Haberfeld had a good car, I was impressed with him at Long Beach when he first started in Champcar, and he's still kicking ass in a slow car.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 04:33 PM
Thanks for the clarification. :thumbup:
My pleasure, they barely completed lap 1 though. :)
Does anyone know anything about the starters? Are they powered by a battery? Why can't each safety team have one? Everyone has the same engine. Wouldn't it be quicker an easier to use the starter then to pull the truck out and hook the car up for a tow/bump start?
Insomniac
07-13-04, 04:34 PM
I enjoyed the race, but I think Tracy drove like an idiot. How many of us could see his punts coming 3 seconds before he decided his moves? I sure could. He looked like he was driving a video game rather than a top-level racecar.
And for once I thought Bruno would admit fault. Jeez, it's the start of the race and he's surprised someone is by his side on the first lap?
I wish Haberfeld had a good car, I was impressed with him at Long Beach when he first started in Champcar, and he's still kicking ass in a slow car.
It's PT. You can see him punting cars seasons into the future. ;)
He looked like he was driving a video game
Do you have any idea how much talent it requires to do that? The only other driver I ever saw passing so many cars in a single lap was Villenueve, and he DNFed.
Jacques. Gilles probably did it too, but I'm not that old.
Railbird
07-13-04, 05:28 PM
Does anyone know anything about the starters? Are they powered by a battery? Why can't each safety team have one? Everyone has the same engine. Wouldn't it be quicker an easier to use the starter then to pull the truck out and hook the car up for a tow/bump start?
My thoughts exactly, that would seem to be a simple way to cut down on FCY laps.
I wish Haberfeld had a good car, I was impressed with him at Long Beach when he first started in Champcar, and he's still kicking ass in a slow car.
yep
Do you have any idea how much talent it requires to do that? The only other driver I ever saw passing so many cars in a single lap was Villenueve, and he DNFed.
I'm not saying he isn't talented, I'm saying he was driving like an idiot. My "video game" comment came from the fact that he obviously didn't give a ***** about other cars out there. Bouncing off of other cars takes less talent that making a clean pass and moving on.
The penalties were appropriate, IMO.
PT left room for both drivers. IMO enough for Wilson, not enough for Jourdain.
But, if he truly didn't give a rat's ass, he wouldn't have left any room.
PT left room for both drivers. IMO enough for Wilson, not enough for Jourdain.
Oh my. How do you leave room for someone you are passing? It's his responsibility to make a safe pass, and the victims weren't blocking. He hit both cars from behind.
I love this, more than a decade later PT is still just a very talented saint with the problem of ppl getting in his way, despite his track record of banging more rear ends than Ron Jeremy :laugh:
Dr. Corkski
07-13-04, 06:37 PM
I love this, more than a decade later PT is still just a very talented saint with the problem of ppl getting in his way, despite his track record of banging more rear ends than Ron Jeremy :laugh:Don't forget the patron saint would beat Michael Schumacher even though he couldn't pass Michel Jourdain without ever punting him off. :gomer:
Chiphead_Dave
07-13-04, 06:52 PM
Don't forget the patron saint would beat Michael Schumacher even though he couldn't pass Michel Jourdain without ever punting him off. :gomer:
Huh me no understand.
The Doctor
07-13-04, 07:01 PM
Hmmm....
http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/large/28450_jud.jpg
Jdcooperclan
07-13-04, 07:45 PM
"I say put him and Tony Stewart in bumper cars and let them crash into each other for 3 hours."
Now THAT I would watch !
There is no denying that Champ Car is not as “professional” as it used to be, and I hope and believe that it will be professional again. I as much as anyone have complained for years about the inability of Champ Car drivers to get through the first turn of virtually any road or street course race without a crash. Yet, it is Tracy’s antics that get all the press, good and bad, and have kept this thread alive.
As long as we are getting attention, it’s a good thing.
Hmmm....
http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/large/28450_jud.jpg
Seems like Wilson is taking a rather odd line through the corner. If I didn't know that he was a lilly white innocent bystander I'd say he was trying to block the inside line. But no, that couldn't be.
;)
Huh me no understand.
Of course you don't. There are only two people on this board with the raw intelligence to make an informed opinion on what real racing is, and you just quoted one of them.
The rest of us neanderthals spend our time by thumping our chests and "worshipping the Great and Powerful PT", turning a blind eye to his many transgressions with nary a murmer of discontent.
And if you dare to try and articulate (withOUT making excuses for the bull in a chinashop charge to the front) that the reality is that sometimes mere centimeters can turn a brilliant move into the most boneheaded and needless shunt you could imagine, than the OC braintrust will deride you as a "FanBoy".
Coincidently enough, any driver that has shown flashs of brilliance at any time in their career in a racecar has knocked off a corner or three at one time or another. Too bad these things don't come with an operators manual to indicate were the envelope ends and "Oh S****" begins.
Of course, if this or any other series was populated front to back with drivers content to drive 8/10's and cycle around for those "Valuable Winston Cup Points" ;) the world would be a better place. Certainly if we could find a mounting point for those nice helium-filled balloons like they have for Macy's Thanksgiving deal.
Oh my. How do you leave room for someone you are passing? It's his responsibility to make a safe pass, and the victims weren't blocking. He hit both cars from behind.
PT was coming out the pits, Jordain was doing a flying lap. Jordain was passing. PT left him about 3/4 of a car, which like I said, isn't enough, but ain't the same as what Bruno did, pushing them both into the wall.
RE: Wilson. Look at the photo. PT is on the inside, leaving Wilson room on the outside. Wilson didn't stay out there.
just so you're not the only one calling yourself fanboy...
you're a fanboy.
:D
PT left him room? PT's the one behind in that situation, Wilson's the one to leave room if he wishes, once again since it's PT, it's incumbent upon the other driver to watch out...
just so you're not the only one calling yourself fanboy...
you're a fanboy.
:D
:rofl:
Insomniac
07-13-04, 10:42 PM
I'm not saying he isn't talented, I'm saying he was driving like an idiot. My "video game" comment came from the fact that he obviously didn't give a ***** about other cars out there. Bouncing off of other cars takes less talent that making a clean pass and moving on.
The penalties were appropriate, IMO.
Wouldn't this also imply that he didn't care whether he finished the race or not as well?
Methanolandbrats
07-13-04, 10:43 PM
PT was coming out the pits, Jordain was doing a flying lap. Jordain was passing. PT left him about 3/4 of a car, which like I said, isn't enough, but ain't the same as what Bruno did, pushing them both into the wall.
RE: Wilson. Look at the photo. PT is on the inside, leaving Wilson room on the outside. Wilson didn't stay out there. Bruno is a dick and so is PT. IN the Wilson case, Wilson was ahead, meaning it was his line. That means PT has to use the ****ing brakes. Well imagine that, PT using the ****ing brakes. That's the problem, the Retarded Canuck Rapper does'nt know where the brakes are. He just assumes everyone will move over. If they don't he runs over them
Insomniac
07-13-04, 10:44 PM
Oh my. How do you leave room for someone you are passing? It's his responsibility to make a safe pass, and the victims weren't blocking. He hit both cars from behind.
He definitely didn't tag Jourdain from behind, they were side to side and it was Jourdain who caught up from behind as PT was coming out from the pit lane.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 10:48 PM
Of course you don't. There are only two people on this board with the raw intelligence to make an informed opinion on what real racing is, and you just quoted one of them.
The rest of us neanderthals spend our time by thumping our chests and "worshipping the Great and Powerful PT", turning a blind eye to his many transgressions with nary a murmer of discontent.
And if you dare to try and articulate (withOUT making excuses for the bull in a chinashop charge to the front) that the reality is that sometimes mere centimeters can turn a brilliant move into the most boneheaded and needless shunt you could imagine, than the OC braintrust will deride you as a "FanBoy".
Coincidently enough, any driver that has shown flashs of brilliance at any time in their career in a racecar has knocked off a corner or three at one time or another. Too bad these things don't come with an operators manual to indicate were the envelope ends and "Oh S****" begins.
Of course, if this or any other series was populated front to back with drivers content to drive 8/10's and cycle around for those "Valuable Winston Cup Points" ;) the world would be a better place. Certainly if we could find a mounting point for those nice helium-filled balloons like they have for Macy's Thanksgiving deal.
I don't think you made anything clearer. ;)
PT left him room? PT's the one behind in that situation, Wilson's the one to leave room if he wishes, ...
That's true to a point. There are a couple of stipulations there. First of all it's expected that the driver being passed will concede the corner at some point. Second, it's expected in champ car racing that the driver being overtaken will not alter his line to block. Wilson altered his line about three times. Once when he took the inside line forcing Tracy to go outside, again when he went deep into the corner preventing Tracy from turning in on the outside of him and finally when he dove down to block the inside line.
I'm not saying that Wilson had it coming, but weaving around like the track like a drunken F1 refugee doesn't make him an innocent victim either.
Lizzerd
07-13-04, 11:04 PM
Settle down, people... please...
I'm a PT fan, moreso in the last couple years than in his early days, because IMO, he has matured as a driver. BUT, last week he was back to his old style. Yeah, I'm a fan of his but when he screws up, I'll say he screwed up.
The two incidents I refer to are the one with Wilson and the one with Jourdain.
First, Wilson. This one, I believe, was a racing deal, and could have been avoided by either driver. Justin went too hot into the corner on the inside, missed the apex and went high, in front of Paul. Paul, taking the racing line, tried to get in under Justin, which would have put him on the outside for turn two to perhaps complete the re-pass. Justin tried to get back in the racing line after having missed it, and cut into Paul's path. Both drivers had reasons for their actions, and in this case, Justin lost the battle, but Tracy won the war. Over aggressiveness can be blamed on BOTH drivers in this incident. I can't help but think that Justin wouldn't have been given a drive-through had he survived and Paul stuffed it into the wall. This penalty was unjustified, I think.
Second, Jourdain. Paul screwed up big time. He should have been told or seen that Michel was there. He was on cold tires and did not give a full car width into the turn. He should have ceded the corner and stalked Michel on his fresher, warming tires.
It is the responsibility of the PASSING driver for the safety of the situation.
That's all I have to say about that...
EDIT: I think nrc just posted the same thing I was typing when he did.
I'm not saying that Wilson had it coming, but weaving around like the track like a drunken F1 refugee doesn't make him an innocent victim either.
true
The Doctor
07-13-04, 11:23 PM
Of course, if this or any other series was populated front to back with drivers content to drive 8/10's and cycle around for those "Valuable Winston Cup Points" ;) ....
Dear goodness! The Brian France NASCAR PR Machine will be after you for not calling them Nextel Cup More-Meaningless-Than-Ever-Before Chase for the Championship Points. :shakehead :shakehead
Distracting from the PT never-ending conundrum -- I apologize.
Here's help:
PT is a bonehead. PT is brilliant. Regardless, he still finished fifth. Not a bad day. And it was mighty entertaining. I'll take it.
Railbird
07-13-04, 11:23 PM
I just rewatched the race
again
The charge PT made after the first drive through was not only the most exiting thing I've seen all year in all the series I watch, it was the perfect answer to any natsayers who pizz and moan about the concrete canyons producing parades.
I've been a PT fan since he was a fat faced kid because of episodes such as that, but as TK said: "Paul drives a race one corner at a time".
That right there will get you in trouble more often than not.
It'll also keep me watching.
Bruno is a dick and so is PT. IN the Wilson case, Wilson was ahead, meaning it was his line. That means PT has to use the ****ing brakes. Well imagine that, PT using the ****ing brakes. That's the problem, the Retarded Canuck Rapper does'nt know where the brakes are. He just assumes everyone will move over. If they don't he runs over them
This line, "IN the Wilson case, Wilson was ahead, meaning it was his line." is a true statement, but I would refer to NRC's statement about changing lines. To use that logic, as long as I'm P1 I can back off and play dodgeball with my racecar weaving side to side and if I turn you around in a pass attempt, your penalized. Inside line, outside line, and back to inside is a block, regardless of whether on a straight or in a corner.
I would have done the same thing as Justin, however. ;)
As far as Jourdain is concerned, I'd say there is blame to be shared, with PT having the brunt. MJ's been at the front now long enough to know what he may expect from PT, and I'm sure that the years he spent circling at or near the back gained plenty of experience at the chrome horn. On the other hand, he showed that he isn't intimidated, which is a good thing. What I saw was the drag race to the turn-in, PT climbed the curbing to give MJ room, and then powered out of the apex leaving noplace for MJ to go. Certain amount due to cold tires, but then he has enough experience to know that. The downside to this whole deal is how race control administers these penalties. If theyare the same for everyone from hereon in, that's fine. The only thing the series will lose is a competitive ontrack pass, as the drivers won't even try for fear of a penalty.
Now, as far as the Idiot Dick Retarded Canuck Rapper is concerned, while I personally could give a rat's a$$ as to your likes and dislikes, may I humbly suggest a lighter bill of fare, say, 94Octane and CheeseDoodles as a form of release perhaps?
:D
Wouldn't this also imply that he didn't care whether he finished the race or not as well?
That's not what I was implying, but I do think he was on a mission to the front, no matter what. Couple that with Paul Tracy Red Mist™ and you see the results.
By the way, I'm a Paul Tracy fan and a Zanardi fan, but I never liked it when they bullied their way to the front.
Insomniac
07-14-04, 02:36 PM
That's not what I was implying, but I do think he was on a mission to the front, no matter what. Couple that with Paul Tracy Red Mist™ and you see the results.
By the way, I'm a Paul Tracy fan and a Zanardi fan, but I never liked it when they bullied their way to the front.
I agree with you. He wasn't on a mission to punt anyone, but his never back down, aggressive driving style just lends itself to accidents happening.
darrylkropp
07-14-04, 03:51 PM
What JT265 and Railbird said. :) PT keeps things very exciting and it keeps me watching too. I hate to say it, but the day PT moves to taxis is the day I will watch my first Nascar race.
Nosuchsoul
07-15-04, 04:05 AM
What other race in the entire history of this website got this many posts? That in itself should say that it was a great and entertaining race. It was! If you want to see Paul Tracy in NASCAR than go watch a fella named Tony Stewart. If you want Seabass, go see Kasey Kahne.............next year. There is nothing better than a flame war. :gomer:
P.S. IRL rocks, Hornish is ownage.
Nosuchsoul
07-15-04, 04:11 AM
And another thing, Jourdain was there at that moment in time cause he cannot outqualify Dinger. And Dinger and Wilson are now tied in the ROY standings, THAT is the one i am watching. At this point it looks like Seabass is gonna pull a Schumacher on the rest of the great unwashed out there.
Spicoli
07-15-04, 08:37 AM
If you want to see Paul Tracy in NASCAR
That's a done deal.
Hsave funw atching him this year, all you haters.
Robstar
07-15-04, 07:58 PM
The two incidents I refer to are the one with Wilson and the one with Jourdain.
First, Wilson. This one, I believe, was a racing deal, and could have been avoided by either driver. Justin went too hot into the corner on the inside, missed the apex and went high, in front of Paul. Paul, taking the racing line, tried to get in under Justin, which would have put him on the outside for turn two to perhaps complete the re-pass. Justin tried to get back in the racing line after having missed it, and cut into Paul's path. Both drivers had reasons for their actions, and in this case, Justin lost the battle, but Tracy won the war. Over aggressiveness can be blamed on BOTH drivers in this incident. I can't help but think that Justin wouldn't have been given a drive-through had he survived and Paul stuffed it into the wall. This penalty was unjustified, I think.
Second, Jourdain. Paul screwed up big time. He should have been told or seen that Michel was there. He was on cold tires and did not give a full car width into the turn. He should have ceded the corner and stalked Michel on his fresher, warming tires.
It is the responsibility of the PASSING driver for the safety of the situation.
That's all I have to say about that...
EDIT: I think nrc just posted the same thing I was typing when he did.
But you said it better... :thumbup:
(no offence nrc :) )
1. First order of business, JT - you are a PT fanboy :gomer:
:runsawayfromangryCanuck
2. PT drove a good first stint behind Sea Bass
3. PT in a boneheaded manner punted Wilson
4. PT in a boneheaded manner punted Jourdain, in what I consider a dumber move than #3, that when all is said and done, can almost, almost be described as a 'racin' incident"
5. In some of the most exciting action seen on a street course -ever- PT drove two breathtaking laps, passing a whole bunch of people.
6. PT got out of his car, and blamed everyone else for his troubles, which is the Bruno, whiny fat kid thing to do.
7. PT was dumb, reckless, exciting, brilliant, then plainly moronic, all in the course of two hours.
8. It did make for some really exciting racing, but still due to #3 and #4, and #6, PT behaved overall like an ass.
9. It made for some damn good televison and the Champ Car haters have been quited for a while.
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