View Full Version : RM Says CDM to N/H "Done Deal"
racer2c
07-13-04, 10:29 AM
Robin on WindTunnel said that it's a "done deal" dor CDM to come back to N/H who will have four cars next year. Two in the CCWS, two in the IRL.
CDM is my boy! :thumbup:
CDM returns :thumbup:
Two cars the earl :thumdown: (hopefully that part doesn't pan out)
RM claims it will be da Matta and Bourdais driving ChampCars. Bruno and Honda's Choice in the IRL.
ChampCar certainly comes out better in that deal.
...
Two cars the earl :thumdown: (hopefully that part doesn't pan out)
Most likely will pan out, can you name a team that double dipped with the 500 and did not enter the IRL? I don't remember one.
:thumdown: that CdM can't stay in F1 :thumbup: that I will get to see more of him here in the US.
Railbird
07-13-04, 10:59 AM
Good fit, Shorty should be accustomed to getting flogged by a frog.
Of the three Junky is probably the best choice for Earl duty. He drove like he needed a spotter last weekend. "Outside...outside...outside...outside..."
RaceGrrl
07-13-04, 11:11 AM
I'd like to see Bourdais and Shorty fight it out. :thumbup:
Most likely will pan out, can you name a team that double dipped with the 500 and did not enter the IRL? I don't remember one.
I know, just wishfull thinking on my part.
Anteater
07-13-04, 11:16 AM
:thumdown: that CdM can't stay in F1 :thumbup: that I will get to see more of him here in the US.
I wish CdM well during every F1 race and want to see him succeed there, but I still miss him in Champ Car. Selfish of me, but it's the truth.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 11:18 AM
It will be a shame to lose Bruno if it all works out like this. How about Haas leaves, we don't care what he does and Newman runs 3 cars. :)
RM claims it will be da Matta and Bourdais driving ChampCars. Bruno and Honda's Choice in the IRL.
ChampCar certainly comes out better in that deal.
woohoo!! :D
I'll take the real brasilian over junkie
Insomniac
07-13-04, 11:19 AM
Also, if they go 2 and 2 next year, wouldn't you expect all 4 to be at Indy? I was hoping this wouldn't continue. Honda must have a lot of money to waste to pay all these guys to switch.
Also, if they go 2 and 2 next year, wouldn't you expect all 4 to be at Indy? I was hoping this wouldn't continue. Honda must have a lot of money to waste to pay all these guys to switch.
Another good reason for more races in May.
IlliniRacer
07-13-04, 12:26 PM
RM claims it will be da Matta and Bourdais driving ChampCars. Bruno and Honda's Choice in the IRL.
ChampCar certainly comes out better in that deal.
My memory is a little fuzzy...How well did Bruno do comming up through the ranks at Eldora, Lima, Anderson, etc? ;)
SurfaceUnits
07-13-04, 12:29 PM
He and Matsuura were 1-2 for three consecutive seasons
PLN won't send a car to IMS
JLMannin
07-13-04, 12:42 PM
Also, if they go 2 and 2 next year, wouldn't you expect all 4 to be at Indy? I was hoping this wouldn't continue. Honda must have a lot of money to waste to pay all these guys to switch.
Pual Newman Racing (nice ring to it, eh?) will never participate in an irl event. Carl Haas will run as many cars in the Marion County Fair 500 as Honda tells him to run
Railbird
07-13-04, 12:49 PM
Indy will be a two week affair next year, adjust the schedule to eliminate the crossover possibities.
From what Ive heard Carl isn't threatening to drag Lola along with him, he's just chasing the Honda bucks.
Keeping SeaBass and getting CdM back is a good deal, but as much as I like to make fun of Blinky I hate to see him go.
FWIW -- My (very reliable) source says Carl was less than impressed with his visit to Indy in May and may be having second thoughts.
Railbird
07-13-04, 01:27 PM
Haas has already ordered two Gforces and scheduled a test date at Homestead.
not that he still couldn't opt out but I take that as a sign of at least one entry.
At Cleveland RM was saying that PLN told him that it was Haas's wife who pressed him to sign the Honda deal.
pfc_m_drake
07-13-04, 01:43 PM
Keeping SeaBass and getting CdM back is a good deal, but as much as I like to make fun of Blinky I hate to see him go.
Ditto.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 01:49 PM
Another good reason for more races in May.
I know it's too late to even bother trying to battle Indy that weekend. But now, they would be forcing the fence sitters to pick a side. I just hope something like that wouldn't lead to the worst case scenario: Haas bolts and Paul Newman can't set up a team to replace him.
Insomniac
07-13-04, 01:51 PM
Pual Newman Racing (nice ring to it, eh?) will never participate in an irl event. Carl Haas will run as many cars in the Marion County Fair 500 as Honda tells him to run
You're assuming that it is no longer Newman/Haas racing. They had a car at Indy this year.
JLMannin
07-14-04, 12:16 PM
You're assuming that it is no longer Newman/Haas racing. They had a car at Indy this year.
I thought Newman requested to have his name not associated with the irl entry.
theunions
07-14-04, 01:43 PM
I thought Newman requested to have his name not associated with the irl entry.
That was the rumor floating around, but subsequently he was quoted as saying he didn't think about that until AFTER the entry had already been filed... :confused:
Insomniac
07-14-04, 02:37 PM
That was the rumor floating around, but subsequently he was quoted as saying he didn't think about that until AFTER the entry had already been filed... :confused:
You're right. Although, I'd imagine that could've been changed if people really wanted it to happen.
Racing Truth
07-14-04, 02:50 PM
RM claims it will be da Matta and Bourdais driving ChampCars. Bruno and Honda's Choice in the IRL.
ChampCar certainly comes out better in that deal.
Definetly agree here. That team will be stout.
Rabbit: Very interesting. While still the most well-known US OW event, Indy no longer gives you the exposure to really get excited about. Still probably enough though that Carl will be there.
Insomniac
07-14-04, 06:50 PM
Definetly agree here. That team will be stout.
Rabbit: Very interesting. While still the most well-known US OW event, Indy no longer gives you the exposure to really get excited about. Still probably enough though that Carl will be there.
I don't think the value of exposure at Infy is the question, more whether Honda's money is worth it.
TorontoWorker
07-14-04, 08:40 PM
I think CDM is in for a surprise. Since he has left the old CART, his car (if he comes back) will be weighed with him in it and it will have to meet the min weight levels unlike when he left for F1. He had a huge advantage over guys like Tracy, some say at least a 60lbs advantage in PT's case - I recall it being worth around a half second a lap. We shall see just how fast he really is when he and his car weigh the same as all of the other runners. I'm betting the big Mac car will be faster.
I think CDM is in for a surprise. Since he has left the old CART, his car (if he comes back) will be weighed with him in it and it will have to meet the min weight levels unlike when he left for F1. He had a huge advantage over guys like Tracy, some say at least a 60lbs advantage in PT's case - I recall it being worth around a half second a lap. We shall see just how fast he really is when he and his car weigh the same as all of the other runners. I'm betting the big Mac car will be faster.
That such bs. You're crediting 7 wins (could be way more) to a slight weight advantage? Are you a PT fan?? :shakehead
CDM, if he comes back, will claim back his top-dog status. Should be a good battle but dont forget how the team loved to work with him, Cristiano is Da Man! :cool:
rjohnson999
07-15-04, 02:20 PM
Then it never was in doubt. Carl's wife is the one really in charge.
At Cleveland RM was saying that PLN told him that it was Haas's wife who pressed him to sign the Honda deal.
Then it never was in doubt. Carl's wife is the one really in charge.
Baby wants a new pair of Manolo Blahniks. Maybe a whole closet full.
racer2c
07-15-04, 04:10 PM
I think CDM is in for a surprise. Since he has left the old CART, his car (if he comes back) will be weighed with him in it and it will have to meet the min weight levels unlike when he left for F1. He had a huge advantage over guys like Tracy, some say at least a 60lbs advantage in PT's case - I recall it being worth around a half second a lap. We shall see just how fast he really is when he and his car weigh the same as all of the other runners. I'm betting the big Mac car will be faster.
I definitely do not believe Cristiano's weight advantage while in CART was the key to his success. Not by a long shot.
F1 does not tend to lessen a drivers talent, even if the driver is floundering around in twelfth in a dog of a car. I would suspect he would return to Champ Car as quite the contender.
I definitely do not believe Cristiano's weight advantage while in CART was the key to his success. Not by a long shot.
F1 does not tend to lessen a drivers talent, even if the driver is floundering around in twelfth in a dog of a car. I would suspect he would return to Champ Car as quite the contender.
Many examples of that. Most recently, Wilson. Flop in the Jaguar, nice run so far in Champcars.
To go a little further back in time, take Michael Andretti (Flop in F1, huge career in CART).
jonovision_man
07-15-04, 05:22 PM
Many examples of that. Most recently, Wilson. Flop in the Jaguar, nice run so far in Champcars.
To go a little further back in time, take Michael Andretti (Flop in F1, huge career in CART).
NH doesn't just pick the best drivers, they prepare some of the best cars, which lets drivers shine a little brighter. By contrast, ToyotaF1 has been pretty awful this year by their targets.
da Matta has been ok, he's kept pace with Panis, but nobody's seen anything special there. I'm not at all surprised to see him without any offers and a slim chance of keeping his ride - there's just been no spark, nothing compelling to keep him on.
I think a big factor is that in F1 there are very few drivers that don't deserve to be there, while CART has far more.
BTW - the weight advantage was definately there, it was a few 10ths and in this sport that can often be the difference. Would he have won races and championships without it? In all likelihood yes, but it wouldn't have been as easy as it was for him.
IMO.
carpfan
07-15-04, 05:28 PM
Of course weight plays a part...wasnt it Junky who claimed that his full bladder cost him about 1/10 of a second?? :D
jonovision_man
07-15-04, 05:38 PM
Of course weight plays a part...wasnt it Junky who claimed that his full bladder cost him about 1/10 of a second?? :D
Is that why he emptied it on the first lap at Toronto? :)
Is that why he emptied it on the first lap at Toronto? :)
That would explain him using up the track at the exit of turn one - fluid on the racing surface. :)
Peter Venkman
07-15-04, 06:07 PM
[QUOTE=molive]That such bs. You're crediting 7 wins (could be way more) to a slight weight advantage? Are you a PT fan?? :shakehead
In a series that have so closely matched performance parameters, weight does make a difference.
Physics will not be denied.
TorontoWorker
07-15-04, 06:50 PM
That such bs. You're crediting 7 wins (could be way more) to a slight weight advantage? Are you a PT fan?? :shakehead
CDM, if he comes back, will claim back his top-dog status. Should be a good battle but dont forget how the team loved to work with him, Cristiano is Da Man! :cool:
Slight weight advantage? Who the F are you fooling? This was BEFORE Tracy lost all his weight. Ever seen these two guys standing beside each other?! A 10th of a second is most likely pole between two fast drivers. Getting pole can create an advantage from the first lap onwards. It's simple math. I didn't state that was the only reason CDM won the championship, but it was an advantage that Carl lobbied very hard not to see (the weight rule) change, which it was to have changed mid-season. I heard that there was a threat of moving to the IRL if the minimum weight rule went ahead.
For the record: I am NOT a Tracy fan.
JohnHKart
07-15-04, 06:53 PM
Do really short drivers have a disadvantage in F1? In Steve Matchett's book, he says that Roberto Moreno was so short he lacked the strength to be real competitive in F1. So I wonder does this apply in Da Matta's case with Toyota?
JH
The Doctor
07-15-04, 07:14 PM
Do really short drivers have a disadvantage in F1? In Steve Matchett's book, he says that Roberto Moreno was so short he lacked the strength to be real competitive in F1. So I wonder does this apply in Da Matta's case with Toyota?
JH
Champ cars require more physical exertion these days than F1. Power steering in F1, none in CC. F1 requires more neck muscles due to the higher braking and acceleration G's, but CC requires more upper body strength to wrestle with the wheel.
racer2c
07-15-04, 09:15 PM
Do really short drivers have a disadvantage in F1? In Steve Matchett's book, he says that Roberto Moreno was so short he lacked the strength to be real competitive in F1. So I wonder does this apply in Da Matta's case with Toyota?
JH
That's right. Damatta was great in Champ Car because he was small. He sucks in F1 because he is small. Poor guy can't catch a break.
That must have been Zanardi's problem in F1 also and the reason he kicked ass in CART. Ridiculous.
Thanks for trashing this thread folks.
:thumdown: :thumdown:
jonovision_man
07-15-04, 09:25 PM
Do really short drivers have a disadvantage in F1? In Steve Matchett's book, he says that Roberto Moreno was so short he lacked the strength to be real competitive in F1. So I wonder does this apply in Da Matta's case with Toyota?
JH
Matchett said that? I've never heard that before, I have heard that smaller drivers have a bit of an advantage in that more ballast has to be used that can give the car a better balance, but it's gotten out of hand these days so I don't imagine that's true anymore either.
F1 is a pretty level playing field by body type. :)
jono
JohnHKart
07-16-04, 06:30 AM
It was a question of logic, not trashing or flaming or anything else. (Which is my normal mode on the net)
Pages 74-75, The Mechanic's Tale, by Steve Matchett:
"(Moreno)'s a slight chap and he just didn't seem to have the stamina to run at a competitive pace for the duration of a race."
John
Railbird
07-16-04, 06:57 AM
Didn't one of the early Japanese drivers have the same problem? It seems as though I remember either Nakajima or Katayama being able to provide good feedback but falling short on the muscle needed to take advantage.
While I don't think Shorty would have any problems I do like the fact that the cars are wieghed with the driver now.
Didn't one of the early Japanese drivers have the same problem? It seems as though I remember either Nakajima or Katayama being able to provide good feedback but falling short on the muscle needed to take advantage.
While I don't think Shorty would have any problems I do like the fact that the cars are wieghed with the driver now.
That would be Katayama-san. He also told good Niki Lauda jokes.
scanman
07-16-04, 09:00 AM
but it was an advantage that Carl lobbied very hard not to see (the weight rule) change, which it was to have changed mid-season. I heard that there was a threat of moving to the IRL if the minimum weight rule went ahead.
I don't recall Carl doing this, but Moe Nunn did threaten to leave if they brought the rule in midway through the season...So he left anyway.:thumdown:
Slight weight advantage? Who the F are you fooling? This was BEFORE Tracy lost all his weight. Ever seen these two guys standing beside each other?! A 10th of a second is most likely pole between two fast drivers. Getting pole can create an advantage from the first lap onwards. It's simple math. I didn't state that was the only reason CDM won the championship, but it was an advantage that Carl lobbied very hard not to see (the weight rule) change, which it was to have changed mid-season. I heard that there was a threat of moving to the IRL if the minimum weight rule went ahead.
For the record: I am NOT a Tracy fan.
Take a look at CDM's results for the 2002 season. He started 7 races on pole, but only won 3 of those, twice (Cleveland and Vancouver) he ended up without any points. Hence, his starting position had a lot less importance than one may initially think. He could easily have won more than 10 races in that season, that's plain domination, imho.
To credit that domination to a few pounds of body weight is ludicrous, specially for those 750hp monsters that weight only 1,565 lbs.
:shakehead
IIRC, Allen McNish was passed over for a few F1 rides due to the "too small" thing also.
jonovision_man
07-16-04, 11:00 AM
Take a look at CDM's results for the 2002 season. He started 7 races on pole, but only won 3 of those, twice (Cleveland and Vancouver) he ended up without any points. Hence, his starting position had a lot less importance than one may initially think. He could easily have won more than 10 races in that season, that's plain domination, imho.
To credit that domination to a few pounds of body weight is ludicrous, specially for those 750hp monsters that weight only 1,565 lbs.
:shakehead
To suggest it wasn't a factor is equally ludicrous, though, it's clearly an advantage.
I don't think anyone's suggesting he wouldn't have won the championship, but certainly his weight helped him.
Grid position (and thus track position) is huge, especially on street circuits where passing isn't easy. Who knows how many incidents he would have had if he was messing around further back? For instance, Tracy on Wilson wouldn't have happenned if Tracy hadn't lost the place to him in the pits in the first place.
It wasn't a completely level playing field, and it was a disservice to fat guys like old PT, as well as to little guys since their accomplishments will always be a little bit in question.
jono
Looks like da Matta is not returning to Champ Car according to THIS (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns13322.html)
Ted
Looks like da Matta is not returning to Champ Car according to THIS (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns13322.html)
Ted
That's talk from an F1 driver without an F1 ride.
if there's a 50-60 lb gap between the 2 then of course there's a speed advantage
and I'm obviously not a PT fan...
da Matta may not have too many choices if he is not in F1 next year. IIRC Haas still holds contract options to Christiano; however contracts can often be voided, broken or bought out.
Anteater
08-05-04, 10:19 AM
Looks like da Matta is not returning to Champ Car according to THIS (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns13322.html)
Ted
A little more detail from da Matta's website:
http://www.damatta.com/news/webnews.php?id=463
In other words, been there, done that...
I'll believe it when he starts talking about doing something besides F1 and still rules out Champcar. Until then it's just what drivers say when they're trying to land an F1 ride. Nothing else will do.
racer2c
08-05-04, 10:59 AM
I'll believe it when he starts talking about doing something besides F1 and still rules out Champcar. Until then it's just what drivers say when they're trying to land an F1 ride. Nothing else will do.
I agree.
racer2c
08-05-04, 01:54 PM
I'll believe it when he starts talking about doing something besides F1 and still rules out Champcar. Until then it's just what drivers say when they're trying to land an F1 ride. Nothing else will do.
From the Speed article... "The Brazilian was expected to leave at the end of this year anyway, having expressed his disillusionment with F1 over the past few months. He is believed to be interested in a return to American racing."
issues_i3oy
08-06-04, 10:01 PM
Of course weight plays a part...wasnt it Junky who claimed that his full bladder cost him about 1/10 of a second?? :D
I guess that's why PT shaves his legs... :rolleyes:
Madmaxfan2
08-07-04, 11:45 AM
It is hard for anyone to look good in F1 these days. It's all Michael and Ferreri.
I can understand why DaMatta does not want to come back. However, I hope Helio, Tony and Gil have not been making to many phone calls to him. If Christiano states in his personal website, been there, done that, and that Haas has an EARL program, who knows?
I don't think it's hard to look good, even in a Toyota. He would have to be consistently and significantly faster than his teamates. He would have to contribute positively to the development of the car. He would have to foster good will and teamwork of the crew.
One doesn't get too many shots at the big time and CDM got a long and fair one. I think he could get himself a bottom feeder F1 ride for next year or perhaps a test driver, either option I think he would take, if offered, before he came back to champ car. But his current posturing aside, a champcar ride may be his best option.
What kind of a pay cut are we looking at here anyway?
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