View Full Version : When You Sell Your Soul
Another Good Read from Gentilozzi (http://www.denverpost.com/Stories/0,1413,36~89~2289222,00.html)
Ted
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 12:29 PM
That is great news.
For one, merger isn't off the table:
Gentilozzi doesn't foresee another meeting until after the season, but that's what Champ Car prefers, he said.
Secondly, and most importantly, the OWRS crew are sticking to their guns over the most important point, ownership/control:
IRL vice president Fred Nation, whose circuit competes at Pikes Peak International Raceway on Aug. 21-22, said last week's meeting ended with two familiar obstacles - international races and leadership - preventing an agreement.
So if OWRS is going to participate in a merger, TG won't be heading the merged entity. Otherwise, no merger.
:)
"Champ Car is following the model of an owner-owned model that went bankrupt earlier this year," Nation said, referring to CART. "These three gentlemen think they can reinvent that model, but we want ownership control that doesn't have the conflict of car owners making the decisions."
Oh yes, it's working soooo much better having a track owner running things. :rolleyes:
"We kept on going, and they do enough underground work to know that there is a whole bunch of successful things that is going to happen. There is good news coming."
Gentilozzi declined to be specific, but said, "There is a better future sooner than I figured."
OK, that sounds encouraging. :thumbup:
Good Denver Post article. I sent the following to Mark Chambers with the Denver Post.
Thanks for the informative article - "Uncommon Ground."
I now live in the Republic of Boulder County, but as an Indiana-born race fan, I grew up attending the Indy 500 in the good ole days. I saw Lone Star JR win in 1980 when I was 9 years old. However, in time I grew to enjoy the diversity of the old CART circuit where the best American drivers would take on the best drivers from around the world on a variety of circuits - super speedways, mile ovals, road and street courses.
I remember when the defending F1 world champ (Nigel Mansell) came to America in 1992 to race in CART and at Indy. He won the CART championship in 1992 completing back-to-back world titles. CART had money and sponsorship and was starting to rival F1 in many ways in the early 90's. Stands and grids were full.
Unfortunately, Tony George inherited the Brickyard and has ruined the sport with his power grab in 1996. Open wheel has dropped off the face of the American motorsports in the intervening years.
With all of the CART team defections in the past 3 years, the IRL seems to be influencing the media. Many feel the IRL has "won", but if you look closely, it is a pyrrhic victory. The fans are not supporting their product as attendence and ratings prove.
Champcar is trying to uphold the great tradition of road racing in America. They have a tough time ahead of them, but there is hope. When Champcar comes to Denver, I suggest you contact Paul Newman for an interview. After many years of avoiding the public eye, he is becoming more vocal about his racing passion and seems to be very accessible.
I realize I am biased, but I'm sure that Champcar and IRL fans agree on one thing... we appreciate your willingness to give both sides their due in your public forum.
Thank you.
Also, I didn't even know about the IRL race later next month at Pike's Peak. My girlfriend and I are running the Pike's Peak marathon up the mountain the same day as the race. Now, with all the fans in town for the crapwagon race, I'm worried about getting a hotel in Colorado Springs... NOT ! ! ! :gomer:
Andrew Longman
07-23-04, 01:07 PM
"We're talking about Toyota, Honda, Firestone, General Motors and the rest of the United States marketing arms," Nation said. "The money that helps fund their efforts to fund the Indy Racing League doesn't come (outside) the United States."
In other words, our business model does not rely on fans or a decent product, just money for our teams
"We're basing our future without a reliance on anybody else," Gentilozzi said. "We're not relying on Toyota and Honda to subsidize our teams. What has happened is (Honda and Toyota) has CART-ified the IRL. All the stuff that was bad about us three years ago is now bad about them.
In other words, our business model believes we can actually produce something of value for our fans, and then in turn teams and sponsors
That's it in a nutshell. Owner control/ownership is just fine, so long as you understand the right way to make value.
Andrew Longman
07-23-04, 01:10 PM
Gentilozzi seemed to take a swipe at George when asked if Champ Car could work under the IRL founder.
"I don't take the Fifth very often, but that's a sensitive issue," Gentilozzi said. "Somewhere there is a guy who is really (capable) of doing this. You don't make bold leadership decisions by birthright, but by good business."
:D ZZZZZZZinggggg
Ed_Severson
07-23-04, 01:14 PM
Mansell ... won the CART championship in 1992 ...
Doh! That was 1993. ;)
"Champ Car is following the model of an owner-owned model that went bankrupt earlier this year," Nation said, referring to CART.Oh yes, it's working soooo much better having a track owner running things. :rolleyes:
Aside from that, Nation is just flat-out wrong. CART hadn't been owned by the car owners for over five years when it went bankrupt.
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 01:40 PM
Aside from that, Nation is just flat-out wrong. CART hadn't been owned by the car owners for over five years when it went bankrupt.
Uhhh... Rocketsports? PK? Forsythe?
Ed_Severson
07-23-04, 01:43 PM
Uhhh... Rocketsports? PK? Forsythe?
CART was a publicly traded company when it went under, not an organization owned and operated by team principals.
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 01:45 PM
CART was a publicly traded company when it went under, not an organization owned and operated by team principals.
Even so, the team principals owned a significant number of shares, especially Forsythe.
RaceGrrl
07-23-04, 01:50 PM
jono, that may be so, but they're also the ones who've stayed and tried to rebuild the series instead of trying to kill it like the moneygrubbing traitors did.
Doh! That was 1993. ;)
Oops. I almost took the time to research that. Point still stands, but it does help to have my facts right. Thank you. :)
Hopefully my email will help and we can win the press war when the 2 series come to Colorado next month.
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 01:55 PM
jono, that may be so, but they're also the ones who've stayed and tried to rebuild the series instead of trying to kill it like the moneygrubbing traitors did.
I don't disagree with that, I'm just pointing out that the owners really did run the show at CART and now 3 of them own it outright.
It's really working now because KK, PG and GF seem like genuinely good people with good intentions. When it was CART there was a lot of bickering and teams putting their own interests ahead of the organization.
I would be a bit worried about a merger that puts the teams back in control a-la-CART.
RaceChic
07-23-04, 01:58 PM
:D ZZZZZZZinggggg
Yup. :thumbup:
"We're basing our future without a reliance on anybody else," Gentilozzi said. "We're not relying on Toyota and Honda to subsidize our teams. What has happened is (Honda and Toyota) has CART-ified the IRL. All the stuff that was bad about us three years ago is now bad about them.
"So in our minds, if there is a little crack in that dam: If they lose any of that support, they could fall apart like CART. When you sell your soul to the devil, he eventually wants it."
:D ZZZZZZZinggggg Part two.
They (The IRL) know it too. :rofl:
Not to defend Fred Nation, but even when CART was a publicly held company, the franchise board - made up of the team owners - had the real power when it came to anything related to the racing.
This is how self-interested folks like Penske and Ganassi were able to hold up the 1.8L engine, and also force through the 3.5L NA engine even though doing so was not in CART's best interest.
It wasn't until the Chris Pook era that the CEO had any real say in what went on.
Aside from that, Nation is just flat-out wrong. CART hadn't been owned by the car owners for over five years when it went bankrupt.
Plus, the last few years Forsythe was the only one that owned very many shares IIRC. Penske and co. cashed out well before that.
Andrew Longman
07-23-04, 02:46 PM
It doesn't matter if the business is shareholder owned, team owner owned, or even track owner owned if the owner fundamentally misunderstands what makes the business successful.
Call Penske, Ganassi, Rahal and others stupid or greedy, either way they took the short view and grabbed the cash.
TG is, well, both stupid and greedy
The OWRS gang may be greedy (you don't get their net worth otherwise), but they clearly understand the ONLY way this business can work and are working it. Quite well it would seem from the very early indicators.
Not to defend Fred Nation, but even when CART was a publicly held company, the franchise board - made up of the team owners - had the real power when it came to anything related to the racing.
True, but there is a world of difference between owner owned an controled and just owner controled. The problem with the structure of CART as a public company was that it gave the owners too much power with no real financial stake in the series itself.
This isn't to suggest that the owner owned structure was without it's problems, but the smaller group in control of OWRs could alleviate much of that.
As for Forsythe's stake in the publicly owned series - if you look back you'll see that there was a lot of friction between Pook and Forsythe last year. Pook was running the show and Forsythe wasn't going to bend over backwards to keep the publicly owned version of CART afloat. I think he just wanted to make sure there was something viable left work with when his turn came.
racer2c
07-23-04, 02:57 PM
Not to defend Fred Nation, but even when CART was a publicly held company, the franchise board - made up of the team owners - had the real power when it came to anything related to the racing.
and here I thought it was Honda and Toyota who held the power. :confused: :gomer:
CART being a publicly traded entity caused the majority of it's financial problems, not being owned by team owners.
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 03:16 PM
and here I thought it was Honda and Toyota who held the power. :confused: :gomer:
CART being a publicly traded entity caused the majority of it's financial problems, not being owned by team owners.
It just a bad idea to have the competitors in the series - team owners, manufacturers, whatever - run it. The tendency is to look out for what helps their team or company at the expense of the series.
That's not always going to be the case, but certainly it was in CART, and if we're talking about the same players certainly some hesitation is warranted.
racer2c
07-23-04, 03:18 PM
It just a bad idea to have the competitors in the series - team owners, manufacturers, whatever - run it. The tendency is to look out for what helps their team or company at the expense of the series.
That's not always going to be the case, but certainly it was in CART, and if we're talking about the same players certainly some hesitation is warranted.
98% of the CART 'players' are in the IRL now...
scanman
07-23-04, 03:21 PM
"Champ Car is following the model of an owner-owned model that went bankrupt earlier this year," Nation said, referring to CART. "These three gentlemen think they can reinvent that model, but we want ownership control that doesn't have the conflict of car owners making the decisions."
What an arrogant P_R_I_C_K
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 03:27 PM
98% of the CART 'players' are in the IRL now...
The comments were related to merger talks, that's the frame of reference I've been considering...
racer2c
07-23-04, 03:27 PM
Personally, I think OWRS' issue isn't that they want control, it's that they don't want ___king Tony to have control.
RaceGrrl
07-23-04, 03:32 PM
The comments were related to merger talks, that's the frame of reference I've been considering...
I was just going to ask you for clarification on that.
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 03:40 PM
I was just going to ask you for clarification on that.
Sorry, hope this disagreement wasn't just down to a miscommunication.
I'm imaginging a merged entity owned and run by team owners, and frankly that sends shivers up my spine.
Lizzerd
07-23-04, 04:47 PM
As far as the Amigos go, I have not seen, heard, or heard rumor of favoritism played by Champ Car to these three team owners. Do they get special engines? NO. Favorable on-track rulings? NO (witness PT).
I don't have a problem with team owners being the series owners. These three owners, anyway.
It seems the stumbling blocks in any merger fantasy is that CCWS/OWRS will not bite if TG is in the leadership role, and TG and his henchmen will not bite if any team owners want to be in the leadership role(s).
racer2c
07-23-04, 05:04 PM
They're not the Amigos!!!! :mad: :mad: :flame:
jonovision_man
07-23-04, 06:30 PM
I don't have a problem with team owners being the series owners. These three owners, anyway.
These three have been remarkably good, as I said previously.
I think a big part of that is that the fight is mostly off the track, keeping the series alive. Once it's on stable footing and everyone's focusing on the championship, things could change. Or not, time will tell, but certainly running a series and competing in it is inherently a conflicty of interest.
PG must be exhausted - running Trans Am, driving in Trans Am, running his team, owing and running CCWS... and he didn't even get a vacation in the off-season, busy buying CART. :) Hope all works out for him financially and otherwise.
jono
Fun article, I guess. I remain convinced that we will not be on our way to a successful future until we stop talking about the IRL and Gomerville among ourselves and with the press.
In the future, I hope Gentilozzi et al will simply focus on the future of Champ Car when granting interviews. If there ever is a "merger," and assure you there never will be, we want to be able to tell Boy George how things are going to be. We get to that point by being successful.
Jag_Warrior
07-24-04, 08:30 PM
It doesn't matter if the business is shareholder owned, team owner owned, or even track owner owned if the owner fundamentally misunderstands what makes the business successful.
Thank you! :thumbup:
I still say the Champ Car product has the potential to attract fans that want something different. With all of the gadgets people talk about here and in everyday life, you can't tell me we (as a nation) aren't techno crazy. Not everybody would follow Champ Car for the exact same reasons, but they could cover some of the bases being missed now (by NASCAR, CCWS, IRL and ALMS).
Instead of trying to force a product on people (like the IRL has done), why not find out what potential fans would actually show up for?
Amanda B.'s Mom
07-24-04, 08:57 PM
I definately agree with the basic reasons why OWRS is not that interested in a merger at this time.
TG formed the IRL " To provide a low cost open wheel racing series". Now it costs more to race in the IRL than it does OWRS. The series was formed for "Deserving American Drivers". Now most of the "stars" are from other countries. To me it seems that the IRL is more about money and less about the drivers, teams and fans, than OWRS is.
Over the past several months it has becomne apparent that TG will inissit on being "in charge" of a merged series. this is definately not in the best interest of Open Wheel Racing in the US. In is not in the best interest of the Treams, drivers, tracks, sponsors (and potential sponsors) or fans.
Lately, when talking with people unfamaliar with Open Wheel racing, I have referred to Champ Cars as "The series one step above the cars that run at Indianapolis." Surpirsingly enough, most people know which series I mean then!
The series was formed for "Deserving American Drivers". Now most of the "stars" are from other countries. To me it seems that the IRL is more about money and less about the drivers, teams and fans, than OWRS is.
It's always been about Indy and control nothing more... Nothing less! The boy idiot could not organize an orgy in a brothel! :rolleyes:
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