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RTKar
07-24-04, 09:37 PM
tg be damned, I bit the bullet and ventured to the infield of The Mile to watch the USAC guys do battle. It was absolutely some of the best oval racing I've seen in a long time,plenty of fights for position through out the field and wheel to wheel racing that wasn't contrived. The drivers were all over the steering wheel trying to keep the back end from stepping out, while getting on the gas. I think speeds topped out around 125mph which seemed plenty fast watching from T-3. I wish these guys raced here more often. Maybe the 3 really rich smart guys that saved Champcar should start looking at them as possible shoes....it would make tg look more like an idiot if that's possible.

Good to see railbird. Nice chat, too bad it was short. :thumbup:

Also, talked a couple guys parked next to me to take in the RA Champcar race. :thumbup:

Lizzerd
07-24-04, 09:55 PM
Right on, Rick. USAC short trackers put on some of the best racing on the planet. Call me a Hoosier Gomer if you will, (who you all know never bought into the "give the guys a chance" spew in The Vision v1.0) but I really enjoy it. I had intended to go to Terre Haute tonight for the sprints on the half mile dirt oval, but certaiin circumstances prevented it. Oh well...

Great racing it is, indeed.

And, it's good to hear you might have recruited a couple Champ Car fans. Good work!!

Railbird
07-24-04, 10:00 PM
Very good to see you today RT, wish we could have met up earlier. My kid and I were sitting in the DD stand in turn one. I've wanted to see both the midgets and the dirtcars at Milwaukee for quite some time and today was a great show. Kinda that fifties throwback thing.

Great show!

Yelley and Steele in a classic midget battle. Congrats JJ

Jay Drake dominates the "Milwaukee 100" Silver Crown event with Brian Tyler charging from 28th to 4th and John Heydenreich coming from 24th to 2nd before breaking.

Lots of good racing and serious driving.

Damn that's fun stuff.

Silver Crown (http://www.usacracing.com/stories.asp?StoryID=1598)

Midgets (http://www.usacracing.com/stories.asp?StoryID=1597)

rabbit
07-25-04, 12:12 AM
Sweet. I've never seen the Silver Crowns in person, but the Sprints and Midgets put on a great show at Limaland. There are definitely some guys in there who I would like to see spend a year or two in Atlantics to get some road racing experience and then move into Champ Cars. There are some who definitely have the ability.

Wouldn't that be the ultimate irony in Visionville, a USACer driving in Champ Cars while Kosuke Matsuura tears things up at Indy. :laugh:

Racewriter
07-25-04, 01:16 AM
Welcome aboard, guys.:D

EDIT: Pole speed for the Midgets was 127. Pole for the SC's was around 133. Straightaway speeds for both would be in excess of 150. Not bad with no aerodynamics.

I've said for awhile that the aerodronefests are a perversion of what oval racing is really all about.

Lizzerd
07-25-04, 02:28 AM
Welcome aboard? Hell, I've been on board for years... :D

FCYTravis
07-25-04, 03:56 AM
EDIT: Pole speed for the Midgets was 127. Pole for the SC's was around 133. Straightaway speeds for both would be in excess of 150. Not bad with no aerodynamics.
What do you mean, no aerodynamics? :confused: Of course they have aerodynamics...

The aerodynamics of an overly-squared-off brick, that is :laugh: :rofl:

cart7
07-25-04, 09:28 AM
Good to see ya open your mind and enjoy the great racin those guys put RT. Been a sprint fan since my Dad took me to my first race at the Springfield mile in the mid 60's. They're even better on dirt. :cool:

RTKar
07-25-04, 09:41 AM
Good to see ya open your mind and enjoy the great racin those guys put RT. Been a sprint fan since my Dad took me to my first race at the Springfield mile in the mid 60's. They're even better on dirt. :cool:

It wasn't so much my mind was closed. I've been to IRP and seen the local guys on dirt. I just don't want to line tg's pockets with my money but I really enjoy the Mile and I know the USAC guys can drive...too bad they're cut out of "Big Time" open wheelers.

gjc2
07-25-04, 10:09 AM
It wasn't so much my mind was closed. I've been to IRP and seen the local guys on dirt. I just don't want to line tg's pockets with my money but I really enjoy the Mile and I know the USAC guys can drive...too bad they're cut out of "Big Time" open wheelers.

If USAC Sprint, Midget and Silver Crown drivers had as there goal to compete in the Indianapolis 500, why don't they attempt to get some seat time in high down force rear engine cars? It's like saying, "I want to be a professional hockey player, but I don't want to ice skate"

George

Racewriter
07-25-04, 10:50 AM
If USAC Sprint, Midget and Silver Crown drivers had as there goal to compete in the Indianapolis 500, why don't they attempt to get some seat time in high down force rear engine cars? It's like saying, "I want to be a professional hockey player, but I don't want to ice skate"

George

Spoken like a true Tonylemming. At least, the current version. Let's see, they can race overpowered, under-tired cars against 30 or more competitors, and get paid for doing so. OR, they can run some limp dick, underpowered, over aeroed, formula car series against 10-15 other guys - IF they can find a million bucks a year to pay for the privilige.

Hmmmmm...that is a tough one...

gjc2
07-25-04, 11:06 AM
Spoken like a true Tonylemming. At least, the current version. Let's see, they can race overpowered, under-tired cars against 30 or more competitors, and get paid for doing so. OR, they can run some limp dick, underpowered, over aeroed, formula car series against 10-15 other guys - IF they can find a million bucks a year to pay for the privilige.

Hmmmmm...that is a tough one...

You think I'm a "Tonylemming"?

George

JT265
07-25-04, 11:26 AM
If USAC Sprint, Midget and Silver Crown drivers had as there goal to compete in the Indianapolis 500, why don't they attempt to get some seat time in high down force rear engine cars? It's like saying, "I want to be a professional hockey player, but I don't want to ice skate"

George

Naw. It's more like, " I AM a professional hockey player, but the ice at Madison Square Garden has melted."

Brickman
07-25-04, 11:29 AM
Spoken like a true Tonylemming. At least, the current version. Let's see, they can race overpowered, under-tired cars against 30 or more competitors, and get paid for doing so. OR, they can run some limp dick, underpowered, over aeroed, formula car series against 10-15 other guys - IF they can find a million bucks a year to pay for the privilige.

Hmmmmm...that is a tough one...

Only a million? Other than that an on spot description.

Railbird
07-25-04, 11:59 AM
Most of the short track heroes of today have little time for the "bring money" scene dominating "big time" open wheel racing. They can venture off to Cup and actually be paid and they get to race, a lot.

Coming up racing two, three or more times a week the thought of paying to race 16/18 times a year is probably unimaginable.

Racewriter
07-25-04, 12:12 PM
You think I'm a "Tonylemming"?

George

No, not necessarily. But the same stuff you just wrote can be seen spewing from the keyboards of dozens of Tonylemmings every day on TF. Think about it.

What Railbird said.

RTKar
07-25-04, 12:14 PM
If USAC Sprint, Midget and Silver Crown drivers had as there goal to compete in the Indianapolis 500, why don't they attempt to get some seat time in high down force rear engine cars? It's like saying, "I want to be a professional hockey player, but I don't want to ice skate"

George

I don't see the jump from USAC to the current irl spec car in an all oval series being the same as say, CART circa 1990's. The irl spec should be a much easier transition, especially in a two car team...put some Honda and Toyota money in USAC...you'll see those guys in Indy.....(in May).

cart7
07-25-04, 12:27 PM
Sad fact. Most USACers haven't a clue what to say to an engineer when it comes to changing the handling of an aero RE car. Kinda like that scene in "Days of Thunder" when Cole Trickle announces to Robert Duvall that he doesn't understand what understeer and loose mean.

There are plenty of Brazilionaires and Yen carrying Japanese formula car drivers that can be quick out of the box and can communicate to the setup guys using grunts, hand gestures and pointing without even needing to know the English language.

gjc2
07-25-04, 06:02 PM
No, not necessarily. But the same stuff you just wrote can be seen spewing from the keyboards of dozens of Tonylemmings every day on TF. Think about it.

What Railbird said.

Comparing me with those guys on TF is a real stretch. If you think I'm an IRL lemming, I respectfully suggest you don't know what your talking about.

George

Racewriter
07-25-04, 11:52 PM
Sad fact. Most USACers haven't a clue what to say to an engineer when it comes to changing the handling of an aero RE car. Kinda like that scene in "Days of Thunder" when Cole Trickle announces to Robert Duvall that he doesn't understand what understeer and loose mean.

There are plenty of Brazilionaires and Yen carrying Japanese formula car drivers that can be quick out of the box and can communicate to the setup guys using grunts, hand gestures and pointing without even needing to know the English language.

Which, of course, brings up a fundamental question, doesn't it? Should the primary skill set for the driver be the "feedback" that allows the engineer (the REALLY important member of the team) to nail the car to the track - or should the primary skill set for the driver be driving the frickin' race car?

I'm quite positive that the majority of the drivers in the field today (AJFore, Ed, and maybe a couple of others excepted) could have driven Dario's car to victory had they been in it. The driver makes up a tiny piece of the overall speed of the cars. HOWEVER - I don't think, and RTKar would likely agree with me - that the majority of the USAC drivers could have gotten the same results out of Yeley's and Drake's respective cars as they did.

If you want to create a series where the engineer and engine manufacturer are preeminent, and the drivers are basically interchangeable (necessary if you want a high concentration of ridebuyers), than the over-aeroed formula cars are perfect. If, on the other hand, you want to emphasize the driver's skill in driving the car, you need something different.

I prefer a race between drivers, as opposed to engineers and engine factories.

Lizzerd
07-26-04, 12:23 AM
Which, of course, brings up a fundamental question, doesn't it? Should the primary skill set for the driver be the "feedback" that allows the engineer (the REALLY important member of the team) to nail the car to the track - or should the primary skill set for the driver be driving the frickin' race car?

Both. Equally as important. How can the engineer "the REALLY important member of the team" do his job if the driver doesn't give him/her constructive feedback? And, given a "perfect" race car by a genius engineer, the driver is the person that ultimately takes it to its limit.

Which is more important is a non-issue. Driving a Champ Car or possibly any formula OW car is a multi-tasking mind game.

BNica
07-26-04, 03:04 PM
Problem has to do with the whole "technology" thing :gomer: You know, shifting to an Open Wheel rear engine formula car for paved ovals, and getting rid of the front-engine cars.
Then, you have USAC kicking out dirt tracks, in the early 70's from its main championship.

After that it has been almost 35 years of rear engine, formula car racing that has much more in common with open wheel rear engine road course racing. Consequently guys who have the best background in this part of the sport - drivers from the European and US feeder series distinguish themselves at it. And in the IRL's high downforce formula, even more so.

Andrew Longman
07-26-04, 03:21 PM
Back to USAC guys, they always put on a good show at Nazareth. But for Easterners, modified are the deal. Anyone catch them at NH on Saturday night on Speed? Heck of a lot better show than the cabs did. Better HP/weight ratio, a little aero, open wheels, and less time to get to the front makes for a good show.

As far as these cars (USAC or Modified) not being a stepping stone to anything but Cup, too bad the rear-engine versions were banned years ago. Dumb ethnocentric, xenophobic decision. They allow rear engine dragsters... because they are better.

Racewriter
07-26-04, 03:29 PM
Back to USAC guys, they always put on a good show at Nazareth. But for Easterners, modified are the deal. Anyone catch them at NH on Saturday night on Speed? Heck of a lot better show than the cabs did. Better HP/weight ratio, a little aero, open wheels, and less time to get to the front makes for a good show.

As far as these cars (USAC or Modified) not being a stepping stone to anything but Cup, too bad the rear-engine versions were banned years ago. Dumb ethnocentric, xenophobic decision. They allow rear engine dragsters... because they are better.

First of all, there was a fan backlash against the rear engine sprinters. Oswego, Winchester, and Salem all conducted fan polls around the same time (Oswego for the Supers, Winchester and Salem for the Sprints), and all came back overwhelmingly in favor of the front engine stuff. Owners didn't want to run them, either. Call it "stupid" if you want, but compare the relative health of USAC vs. IPS, Toyota Atlantic, or the dead Barber Dodge and Indy Lights divisions, and tell me what was the right decision. FE sprint/midget drivers outnumber RE formula car drivers in this country about 12 to 1, so there's a reason there somewhere.

And frankly, you could put the USAC engines in front, in the rear, or carried under the driver's arm - and unless the cars were nailed to the ground by aero, and the drivers had suitcases full of cash to bring, today's crop of CART/IRL owners wouldn't even give them a second look. Pretty shortsighted IMO, given the fact that the biggest stars in American racing right now have all come from that background.

As far as the Mods go, yeah, you're right - killer show at NHIS. About 10 years ago, they used to run the DIRT big block Mods at Nazareth, and I've got that show on tape somewhere. "Awesome" doesn't cover it.

Andrew Longman
07-26-04, 04:07 PM
First of all, there was a fan backlash against the rear engine sprinters. Oswego, Winchester, and Salem all conducted fan polls around the same time (Oswego for the Supers, Winchester and Salem for the Sprints), and all came back overwhelmingly in favor of the front engine stuff.

I suppose you're right. Let the fans decide Though fans probably wouldn't have voted for rear engine dragsters before Gartles lost his foot.

And aero vs non-aero experience is a key factor in moving up.

But the purest in me says that if you are not running a series with any pretense of being stock, then with all due consideration to safety, let them put the engine where the builder thinks is best.

Modified and especially Super Modified, as far a I can tell, have almost no rules covering the design of the car, short of overall dimension, engine size and some safety related rules... except you must put the engine in front.

This race fan wants more diversity and innovaiton in designs, not less. Especially if the restrictions are set based on xenophobic reaction to Europeans invading our shores with "crazy ideas" about how to build a car

Racewriter
07-26-04, 04:21 PM
Modified and especially Super Modified, as far a I can tell, have almost no rules covering the design of the car, short of overall dimension, engine size and some safety related rules... except you must put the engine in front.

You are incorrect. NASCAR-type Modifeds, and their SMART counterparts, are as tightly controlled as any class out there - 364CI engines, 12:1 compression, 390 carb, iron block, 18-degree heads (or Yates for Fords), very specific dimensions on chassis construction, etc. DIRT mods are the same way.

Oswego-type supers are the same way. Tires are limited, engine size is limited (maximum and minimum - for instance, no aluminum blocks or small blocks), engine offset, wing size, all kinds of rules.

Why? Cost and fan appeal, which tend to go hand in hand. And c'mon, let's not pretend that formula car design is optimized, considering that every formula feeder series requires a spec chassis and engine.

FE cars, simply, are less expensive. A roller Silver Crown or Sprinter costs less than the transaxle for an IRL car - and the IPS transaxles aren't much cheaper.

Andrew Longman
07-26-04, 06:01 PM
You are incorrect. NASCAR-type Modifeds, and their SMART counterparts, are as tightly controlled as any class out there - 364CI engines, 12:1 compression, 390 carb, iron block, 18-degree heads (or Yates for Fords), very specific dimensions on chassis construction, etc. DIRT mods are the same way.

Oswego-type supers are the same way. Tires are limited, engine size is limited (maximum and minimum - for instance, no aluminum blocks or small blocks), engine offset, wing size, all kinds of rules.

Why? Cost and fan appeal, which tend to go hand in hand. And c'mon, let's not pretend that formula car design is optimized, considering that every formula feeder series requires a spec chassis and engine.

FE cars, simply, are less expensive. A roller Silver Crown or Sprinter costs less than the transaxle for an IRL car - and the IPS transaxles aren't much cheaper.

You clearly are more knowledgable than I and point out well the practical and economic realities of the sport.

I'm just speaking as a fan and I oversimplified my point at that.

A walk around the paddock at a modifieds/super race will show all sorts of different strategies for locating/types fuel tanks, oil coolers, suspension mounts, aero treatments, engine placement (somewhere up front, but with as much weight to the left as possible), rear ends, nerf bars, etc.

Its not the variety of an F1 paddock, but it beats a BarberDodge paddock.

All I'm saying is that the engineering and design aspects are important parts of the sport that should be kept as much as the economics allow. But the sport also needs to listen to its fans and if I am alone in my opinion I just need to put up with it or take up another hobby.

BNica
07-26-04, 10:52 PM
You are incorrect. NASCAR-type Modifeds, and their SMART counterparts, are as tightly controlled as any class out there - 364CI engines, 12:1 compression, 390 carb, iron block, 18-degree heads (or Yates for Fords), very specific dimensions on chassis construction, etc. DIRT mods are the same way.

Oswego-type supers are the same way. Tires are limited, engine size is limited (maximum and minimum - for instance, no aluminum blocks or small blocks), engine offset, wing size, all kinds of rules.

Why? Cost and fan appeal, which tend to go hand in hand. And c'mon, let's not pretend that formula car design is optimized, considering that every formula feeder series requires a spec chassis and engine.

FE cars, simply, are less expensive. A roller Silver Crown or Sprinter costs less than the transaxle for an IRL car - and the IPS transaxles aren't much cheaper.


So RW how much does a Bobby East Sr. built car cost these days????

Racewriter
07-26-04, 10:59 PM
So RW how much does a Bobby East Sr. built car cost these days????

They top out around 35-40K, depending on how much gingerbread you want. That's less motor, for a silver crown car.