Future Champ Car Engine Sourcing

[Madmaxfan2]

My humble proposal for the future engine regulations for OWRS
Situation:
OWRS cannot live on the current Ford-Cosworth agreement forever. Based on past practices regarding OEM engine manufacturer's business priorities and delivery of needed engineering services, OWRS should not persue engine supply strategies around exclusive OEM manufacturer involvement. First of all, it is basically a myth that the engineers who design the racings are a part of the same organization that take lessions learned and apply to passenger car engines. IT has not worked that way for quite awhile now. Cosworth does the FORD ORWS engine and the GM IRL engine. Honda farms out it's IRL engine to Ilmor. Toyota's engine is handled by TRD, which is not involved with your average CAMRY engine development. OEM basically become sources of finance for the racing engines for the market promotional "value"
of it's perceived involvement. When times are tough, the racing budget goes. Then there is the string of ROI to Champ Car pulled by the OEM manufacturers when the playing field is not "level"
OEM Manufacturer Capabilities: It is generally thought that only an OEM can build the necessary technology into the racing engine of today. The fact is most the engine technology in OEM applications is purchased by outside suppliers and integrated at the OEM engine assembly plant. Racing engines use the method even more intensely. About the only engine part wholly engineered, design and manufactured by the OEM is the engine block casting. Even heads are sometimes manufactured outside. The pistons, connecting rods, camshafts, valves, manifolds, fuel injectors are supplied by the outside. New developments are increasingly being driven and patented by the suppliers. The best example of this practice is the Toyota "Pushrod" NASCAR Engine approved for truck racing. I bet the carburetor, intake manifold, connecting rods, pistons, valves, valve springs are identical to the FORD, Chevy and /or Dodge NASCAR engines. Only the block and heads are different and Toyota probably hired a first rate casting shop to do that piece.
Recommendation; That Champ car propose regulations that allow modern racing engine architectures but allow supplied engine components to be integrated into engines assembled by outside engine builders.
Example: Visteon powertrain is developing a camless engine head with electromagnetic valve actuation. A team owner could receive Visteon sponsorship and integrate the technology into a racing engine package. Visteon marketing could use this opportunity to interest the OEM's, especially if inhanced torque off slow corners plus racing proven durability is demonstrated. There are many independent engineering organizations that can be integrators for racing engines. A new marketing driven concept more in line with how OEM actually develop powertrains currently would greatly benefit Champ Car and stay technologically relevant. You will notice I left out the usual details such as engine displacement limits, use of forced indcution on purpose, etc.

[racer2c]

Before Honda shamed their ancestry and outsourced it's IRL engine (although who can blame them), they claimed that much of their passenger car engine technology was derived from their experience in developing and manufacturing racing engines, VTEC being the most well known aspect.
Your example of outsourcing engine parts except for the core block is the NASCAR formula. Purebred engine makers do not outsource heads, cylinders, injectors etc. Ken Blake wrote an article detailing the NASCAR engine program recently which speaks to much of what you wrote here.

[Madmaxfan2]

Before Honda shamed their ancestry and outsourced it's IRL engine (although who can blame them), they claimed that much of their passenger car engine technology was derived from their experience in developing and manufacturing racing engines, VTEC being the most well known aspect.
Your example of outsourcing engine parts except for the core block is the NASCAR formula. Purebred engine makers do not outsource heads, cylinders, injectors etc. Ken Blake wrote an article detailing the NASCAR engine program recently which speaks to much of what you wrote here.

Not quite, actually not even close to NASCAR. NASCAR will tell you which head, valves carburators, to use,etc. BTW, do you work for an OEM?, I do. BMW's valvetronic valve traintrain on the 4.4L 7 Series engines was probably developed with either Siemens or Bosch components, so no, purebred engine manufacturers do not manufacture, develop, and engineer most of the engines parts anymore. The Henry Ford days are gone. Engine blocks alone is what most OEM engine manufacturers develop, engineer and build solely anymore without supplier involvement. What I suggest is for those suppliers in the business to market thier components to the OEM's via Champ Car series engines using thier technology. The engine build integrators bring it together. The suppliers are not just NASCAR vendors either. I speak of the Visteons, Delphi's, Federal Mogul, DANA, and yes even Borg-Warners of the world.

[racer2c]

Not quite, actually not even close to NASCAR. NASCAR will tell you which head, valves carburators, to use,etc. BTW, do you work for an OEM?, I do. BMW's valvetronic valve traintrain on the 4.4L 7 Series engines was probably developed with either Siemens or Bosch components, so no, purebred engine manufacturers do not manufacture, develop, and engineer most of the engines parts anymore. The Henry Ford days are gone. Engine blocks alone is what most OEM engine manufacturers develop, engineer and build solely anymore without supplier involvement. What I suggest is for those suppliers in the business to market thier components to the OEM's via Champ Car series engines using thier technology. The engine build integrators bring it together. The suppliers are not just NASCAR vendors either. I speak of the Visteons, Delphi's, Federal Mogul, DANA, and yes even Borg-Warners of the world.

When I wrote "purebred engine builders" I meant 'race' engine builders, Cosworth, Ilmor etc. I thought it was rather obvious, I guess not.

Actually, NASCAR only dictates that the heads and block come from the OEM manufacturer, every other engine piece can come from any vendor they choose.

So, did Siemens and Bosch build those heads for BMW or did they 'probably' build them? Just curious.

If "The engine build integrators bring it together." means independent engine builders, then... :thumdown:

OEM's rarely like to 'pull the curtain back' and reveal that Ford isn't all 'Ford'. Heck, look at the current Champ Car engine. It's not a Ford at all. Personally, I'd rather see Cosworth on the sidepod instead Ford. Much more 'thoroughbred'.

[Madmaxfan2]

When I wrote "purebred engine builders" I meant 'race' engine builders, Cosworth, Ilmor etc. I thought it was rather obvious, I guess not.

Actually, NASCAR only dictates that the heads and block come from the OEM manufacturer, every other engine piece can come from any vendor they choose.

So, did Siemens and Bosch build those heads for BMW or did they 'probably' build them? Just curious.

If "The engine build integrators bring it together." means independent engine builders, then... :thumdown:

OEM's rarely like to 'pull the curtain back' and reveal that Ford isn't all 'Ford'. Heck, look at the current Champ Car engine. It's not a Ford at all. Personally, I'd rather see Cosworth on the sidepod instead Ford. Much more 'thoroughbred'.

Actually, that is the idea, along with illmor, but then again if Robert Yates gets the right combination of suppliers, his motors could be stout. Actualy, modern engine archtecture eliminates push rod actuation in my mind.

[Cmndr Keen]

:bird flying overhead:

[pchall]

:bird flying overhead:

I suppose it shat on this thread?

This does border on one of my pet ideas for a new Champcar engine formula: stock block and heads from any manufacturer and whatever revisions needed to internals and externals to make it raceable. I'd love to see what a builder like Comptech could do with a blown or turbocharged Honda S2000 head and block. :)

[oddlycalm]

The outside supplier comments are overstated when it comes to champ car engines, and I'm not sure what it has to do with the future of the series in any case.

Cosworth does indeed grind all their own camshafts (mains, lobes and lobe sides) on a recent build Landis 3L masterless cam grinder. Their crankshafts are made on a similar recent vintage Landis 5SE pin grinder. They machine their own heads and blocks from castings. What is outsourced are valves (Del West), fuel systems, pistons (Mahle I was told) and the turbochargers which used to come from a Cummins subsidiary. The electronics are manufactured to Cosworth specs by a small sub also.

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with CCWS of why it is necessary to go in a different direction. The engines are reliable, periodic rebuilds are affordable, and the performance is good and can be tuned to oh-my-gawd levels simply by adding revs and boost. In my mind, and apparently the series owners agree, changing the engine is a non-issue at present.

oc

[gjc2]

Here's an idea. How about if OWRS commissions (or buys) the design and casting of an engine block and cylinder heads, then sells them to anyone? Independent engine builders then build up race engines. Teams would be able to build there own engines if they want to or buy them. Anybody's name could be on the cam covers so not only car manufactures, but other companies could be involved. NASCAR is moving toward a common engine, this would be the same idea in a smaller twin cam four valve design. Maybe a V10?


George

[Ankf00]

garret makes the turbos I think

[Madmaxfan2]

The outside supplier comments are overstated when it comes to champ car engines, and I'm not sure what it has to do with the future of the series in any case.

Cosworth does indeed grind all their own camshafts (mains, lobes and lobe sides) on a recent build Landis 3L masterless cam grinder. Their crankshafts are made on a similar recent vintage Landis 5SE pin grinder. They machine their own heads and blocks from castings. What is outsourced are valves (Del West), fuel systems, pistons (Mahle I was told) and the turbochargers which used to come from a Cummins subsidiary. The electronics are manufactured to Cosworth specs by a small sub also.

Again, I'm not sure what this has to do with CCWS of why it is necessary to go in a different direction. The engines are reliable, periodic rebuilds are affordable, and the performance is good and can be tuned to oh-my-gawd levels simply by adding revs and boost. In my mind, and apparently the series owners agree, changing the engine is a non-issue at present.

oc
I have an interest in different engine designs competing against each other, like the Old CART. However, knowing how OEM politics work, going back to engine leases and OEM beating up on the sanctioning body is not a preferred method of securing engines. Therefore, new thinking must be used. Badge labeling spec. engines does not as interesting to me in this sport. I am glad my employer is looking forward to another year of supplying OWRS, but is cheap for them to do so. This interim situation will change, and I am just inputing my thoughts here.

[racer2c]

I have an interest in different engine designs competing against each other, like the Old CART. However, knowing how OEM politics work, going back to engine leases and OEM beating up on the sanctioning body is not a preferred method of securing engines. Therefore, new thinking must be used. Badge labeling spec. engines does not as interesting to me in this sport. I am glad my employer is looking forward to another year of supplying OWRS, but is cheap for them to do so. his interim situation will change, and I am just inputing my thoughts here.

I'm not disagreeing with your sentiment, just your proposal. Independent engine builders will only result in '80's style Champ Car with the elite mega buck teams dominating the lesser teams with cars powered by hand grenades. The upside is more passing though. :gomer: :)

[Ankf00]

spec Audi 1.8T's :gomer:

[Andrew Longman]

There are compteting objectives at work that different series resolve differently.

On the one hand involvment in engine development needs to return maximum marketing value. Secondly, the engine must be cost effective for teams.

Ford is largely happy about the current CCWS arrangement because they have exclusivity (Same for Goodyear in Cup and Firestone in IRL). Knowing what each engine will cost, that you will win every race and exactly how many eyeballs will see it is a pretty low risk venture.

Ford, GM and Dodge are happy with NASCAR because they don't have much factory participation beyond supply grill, lights and logo decals (and about $70M in marketing support) and they know they each win about a third of the races in front of huge audiences. That's not rocket science.

In the old CART days when T and H were paying the best teams to take their engines, needless to say it was pretty cost effective for the teams and playing in front of decent ratings and crowd made marketing sense to T/H.

The do it now in the IRL but with smaller crowds and ratings, they invest less in engines in order to keep the exercise rational (if it can be rational at all :) )

While adding multiple parts suppliers to the engine adds sponsor opportunties, I'm not sure in total it is a more valuable marketing opportunity. How important is it that a Bosch electronic system and Siemens fuel system won the race versus a Ford engine? Could be more valuable when you add it all up, but I'm not optimistic.

On the other hand, if encouraging multilple engine parts suppliers lowers the cost of an engine enough, then it won't matter what the marketing value is.

What ever the answer it will find a balance of those two cost/benefit goals.

[pchall]

spec Audi 1.8T's :gomer:

Formula Palmer-Audi?