2005 ChampCar World Series Schedule...

[SurfaceUnits]

According to Robin Miller, the schedule is as follows:

The 2005 ChampCar World Series Season starts off in beautiful Argentina, then it's on to Long Beach, Tony George's favorite open wheel stop. Then down to Fundidora Parque before the annual visit to Milwaukee. Then form there we are on to Portland, Cleveland, TO, and BC. The second half of the season finds the Series making its debut in San Jose, CA(lifornia). Then back to wonderful events in Denver and Montreal, before making a debut in Calgary. From Calgary we go to Laguna Seca and Las Vegas and then another debut in Sanye, China. We close out the season with races in SP and Mexico City.

There you have it.

[RTKar]

Sanye China...never heard of it....must be a hot bed of sponsorship ops....probably don't have bratwurst there either, so I prolly won't go. :shakehead

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sanye China...never heard of it....must be a hot bed of sponsorship ops....probably don't have bratwurst there either, so I prolly won't go. :shakehead

:thumbup:

I'm sure it'll be cancelled around 2 months beforehand anyway. Maybe if we're lucky it'll be gone with enough time for them to fit Road America back on the schedule.

[Methanolandbrats]

Link? If RA is gone and we have more street parades including a parade in China, then fauk Champcar. There is nothing left in American Motorsports worth saving. Indy has been reduced to crap, sportcar racing is crap, NASCAR is crap and Champcar bails on a 25 year tradition. Have to see if it's true.

[Robstar]

I dunno, China is crying out for racing at the mo'

Aussie V8's will be there next year... granted after cancelling this year...

[KLang]

Would you guys prefer there was no series at all?

I will miss RA, I attend every year, but after RA's actions during the off season the last two years this should not come as a surprise. IMO the fault is with RA not OWRS.

I may have to visit Portland next year for the first time.

[FTG]

No matter where they run, it's still the best racing on the planet and if you're too cheap to pay 20 bucks to watch it on race director then you can bite me.

And if the morons who own RA are too stupid to pay a realistic sanction fee, I suggest they put a giant piece of chesse on their head, milk their stupid cows, watch tapes of Vince Lombardi and talk about how much better it is than paying a reasonable sanction fee to watch the best racing in the world.

[fourrunner]

Sanye China...never heard of it....must be a hot bed of sponsorship ops....probably don't have bratwurst there either, so I prolly won't go. :shakehead

General Cho's Bratwurst ( Number 12 on the menu) is supposed to be pretty good !

BTW HOW ARE the Chinese Restaurants in China?

[FRANKY]

Would you guys prefer there was no series at all?

I will miss RA, I attend every year, but after RA's actions during the off season the last two years this should not come as a surprise. IMO the fault is with RA not OWRS.

I may have to visit Portland next year for the first time.

Of course not.

They can do track rentals everywhere but ISC tracks.


According to Robin Miller, the schedule is as follows:

The 2005 ChampCar World Series Season starts off in beautiful Argentina, then it's on to Long Beach, Tony George's favorite open wheel stop. Then down to Fundidora Parque before the annual visit to Milwaukee. Then form there we are on to Portland, Cleveland, TO, and BC. The second half of the season finds the Series making its debut in San Jose, CA(lifornia). Then back to wonderful events in Denver and Montreal, before making a debut in Calgary. From Calgary we go to Laguna Seca and Las Vegas and then another debut in Sanye, China. We close out the season with races in SP and Mexico City.

There you have it.

I think they're are a few that have Korea written all over them.

[JT265]

They can do track rentals everywhere but ISC tracks.

Absolutely they can.

You buying?

[FRANKY]

They can do track rentals everywhere but ISC tracks.

Absolutely they can.

You buying?

They got my http://www.champcarworldseries.com/images/RaceDirector/Offer/Subscribe_1-1.gif
to put in the kitty.

[Fenster]

So, they really are keeping Laguna? And I thought someone was blowing smoke up my arse. Surprising after this year's attendance. Maybe the amigos like to golf, eh? I do love that place though.

And as for RA... well, it's a shame. But until they can't draw bigger crowds and fix the sanctioning fee, then I say it's only good business to look elsewhere. Chicago area would be nice. Oh, say... Lakeshore Drive around Grant Park. But that's probably a pipe-dream.

By the way, is there a link for this?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Would you guys prefer there was no series at all?

Part of the reason there was almost no series at all after last season was because of antics like chasing after international races that may have short term gain but result in long term damage to the sport.

[Rob]

Damn, at this rate in a few years I'll have to either cross an international border or three time zones to get to a champ car race.

[KLang]

Part of the reason there was almost no series at all after last season was because of antics like chasing after international races that may have short term gain but result in long term damage to the sport.

I disagree. They have to make some money somewhere. If they can't do it at traditional US venues then it makes sense to find somewhere they can make a few bucks. I'll bet the only venues ChampCar breaks even on are the non US or a select few US street races. The long term damage to the sport is because of TG. I don't think it will ever be repaired. This is the new ChampCar. I chose to embrace it when and where I can.

If OWRS can lure some sponsers to the series (think McD's) then perhaps in the future we can be more picky about what venues to race at.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Damn, at this rate in a few years I'll have to either cross an international border or three time zones to get to a champ car race.

Thats ok, for every one American fan Champ Car loses, there must be 10,000 Chinese or Argentinean fans replacing them. Well, thats the only logic I can think of for dropping marquee tracks. :confused:

[SurfaceUnits]

Last couple of minutes

http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?p=70189#post70189

[RARules]

BTW HOW ARE the Chinese Restaurants in China?
Nothing like you would expect. I've never been to the PRC, but I was in Taipei (capital of Taiwan) once, and the local food has a lot stronger taste than the bland Americanized Cantonese we get States-side. Not hot; just strong tastes like ~pickled seaweed, etc. (makes that neon-green relish we have here look anemic, too!) Takes a lot of getting used to. They also have arguably the world's worst pork chops.

Don't go there for the food.

But they also have gems like quite reasonably-priced "star fruit" juice in those ubiquituous juice boxes - sold in vending machines. That stuff would cost a fortune in the US.

[Andrew Longman]

If there is no RA, someone, either RA or 3 Amigos are nuts.

go race in Argentina and China. I'm ok with that. I support exporting America's to willing markets. But unless we have world class events on NA soil, there is nothing to export.

The fact that Champcar is a deal at all in NA (the biggest economy on the planet) is, in many ways, the reason it can be a big deal in China and elsewere.

I have a lot of money to direct to champcar, but there are limits. I used to travel to Nazareth, the Meadowlands and then Michigan to see races. Now I travel to Cleveland, RA, Montreal and To for races. I won't be going to China
(or Mexico or Argentina)

[losedagrooves]

edit :saywhat:

[manic mechanic]

What sounds better..TBA or China?


If you recall the 2004 schedule, there were a few dates that never came off (Seoul) and some others that turned into "date/venue changes" (does Vegas ring a bell?).

I'm encouraged by the integrity of the "proposed" schedule as it stands now...If the Chinese are starved for OW, this is the most competitive series out there. Who the crowd cheers for is anyone's guess, but the fact that they are cheering is the bottom line.

Face it folks, our series almost died on the table, and we should be happy that we have it to support. If you can't support the growth of it then I implore you to propose the 3 amigos (and whichever sposor connections you have) some financially viable ideas for domestic venues.
If you believe in any form of "grass roots" lobbying, our dollars and voices are the best weapons we have.


I've laid down both my $$$ and my time for this series...I'll be here for 2005, 6, 7.... :thumbup:


manic

[mueber]

Ahem, I went to Road America this year. I had the whole place to myself.

It's not about charity; it isn't, at this point, even about business. It's about survival, and I don't see going to venues that have shown little interest in doing anything other than opening up the ticket office when other venues are enthusiastic.

I wish they'd run at Road America, and Mid-Ohio too, but I understand that they can't keep the series afloat on ticket sales to a few hard-core campers. I don't like it. I think it says more about the deficiencies of the "fans" than it says about the series, but that is the way it is.

[Methanolandbrats]

Ahem, I went to Road America this year. I had the whole place to myself.

It's not about charity; it isn't, at this point, even about business. It's about survival, and I don't see going to venues that have shown little interest in doing anything other than opening up the ticket office when other venues are enthusiastic.

I wish they'd run at Road America, and Mid-Ohio too, but I understand that they can't keep the series afloat on ticket sales to a few hard-core campers. I don't like it. I think it says more about the deficiencies of the "fans" than it says about the series, but that is the way it is.

I was there too. The crowd was'nt that bad. I've been going there since the beginning. I've seen many of these cycles: rise and fall of CanAm, IMSA GTP, CART....it takes time to rebuild an event. If they alienate the "hard-core", they might as well pack it up and call it a day. How many NEW domestic fans are going to watch a horribly edited broadcast of a Chinese Street Parade on Spike.........it will be a number awfully close to zero. I have hung with this 10 year war in the hope the strong points of the traditional Champcar Series could be saved. Might not be worth it anymore. This sport is really, and I mean really in the tank.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If your races like Road America and Mid-Ohio (as well as the others that have been dropped over the years, specifically the ovals) are going away, maybe it is a sign that you need to work harder to either improve promotion or improve the product, not abandon the market entirely. There has long been a demand for Champ Car racing both in the areas surrounding those tracks, and by the fans who watched the races in TV. I'd imagine that there are many more fans whose interest in the series is dependant on natural terrain road courses like RA and MO than there are fans who will only watch if they are racing in Argentina or China.

[FTG]

The reason Champ Car is in such bad shape is because the previous stupid owners believed they needed to run at Indy at any cost.

The new owners are smart. They will not be held hostage by a single track.

If you don't like it, head out the door along with Penske, Ganassi, Rahal, and all the other idiots who felt that a single track is more important than the series.

[KLang]

While the details are not known, it appears that Portland and OWRS were able to work out a deal to the benefit of both sides. It appears that RA and MO were unwilling to do the same. Why should OWRS continue to throw away money at these venues?

I think RA made their position quite clear during the bankruptcy proceedings. :mad:

[JoeBob]

I wonder how close to a real schedule this is. Robin doesn't have the connections he used to. (See: Schedule, Month of May.)

I'm very skeptical of the new overseas venues. They haven't been able to make South Korea happen, so I question the addition of Argentina and China.

I'd love to see Road America and Mid-Ohio on the schedule, but it takes two to tango.

[Methanolandbrats]

These guys set out to save Champcar. A Champcar is a high-horsepower open wheel monster blasting down the straights of natural terrain road courses as well as ovals and street courses. So the question remains; If Champcar is reduced to spec racers running into traffic barriers in China, what has been "saved"?

[KLang]

These guys set out to save Champcar. A Champcar is a high-horsepower open wheel monster blasting down the straights of natural terrain road courses as well as ovals and street courses. So the question remains; If Champcar is reduced to spec racers running into traffic barriers in China, what has been "saved"?

If the new schedule is accurate aren't all three kinds of tracks still on the schedule?

[Sean O'Gorman]

If the new schedule is accurate aren't all three kinds of tracks still on the schedule?

Two examples of ovals and permanent road courses isn't going to cut it. That would be like NASCAR bragging about diversity because they had a black guy and a Hispanic guy in the field. :saywhat:

[KLang]

Two examples of ovals and permanent road courses isn't going to cut it. That would be like NASCAR bragging about diversity because they had a black guy and a Hispanic guy in the field. :saywhat:

Isn't one of the Canadian tracks a road course? What about the Mexican races?
Well, I'll still be watching and attending. What are you going to switch to?

[jonovision_man]

Isn't one of the Canadian tracks a road course?

Montreal.

jono

[jonovision_man]

Isn't one of the Canadian tracks a road course? What about the Mexican races?


Argentina too, assuming they run the same circuit as F1. I think that's what they said they'd do.

Actually there would be a lot of road courses, 2 in Mexico, 1 in Argentina, 1 in Canada, and a couple of US races.

Just not RA and Laguna. :(

Still very much a series worth watching, some of the best races this year have been street circuits.

jono

[Sean O'Gorman]

Isn't one of the Canadian tracks a road course? What about the Mexican races?
Well, I'll still be watching and attending. What are you going to switch to?

I didn't say I'd stop watching, but only attending one race (Cleveland), and I certainly wont get as much enjoyment out of China and Argentina as I would out of Mid-Ohio and Road America (and the ovals).

[mueber]

While the details are not known, it appears that Portland and OWRS were able to work out a deal to the benefit of both sides. It appears that RA and MO were unwilling to do the same. Why should OWRS continue to throw away money at these venues?

I think RA made their position quite clear during the bankruptcy proceedings. :mad:

Cleveland worked to put together a deal as well. All I'm saying is it takes two, and spending millions to prop up venues people aren't coming to makes no financial sense.

[The Doctor]

For information's sake.
Compared on other forums as "China's Coos Bay".

Sanya, China.
Urban Population: 440,000
Hainan Island Population: 7,110,000
Area: 1,919 sq km
Climatic Features: located in low-latitude area with tropical coastal monsoon climate; known as "a big natural hot house"; 2,563 sunshine hours all the year-round
Hainan Island Population: 7,110,000

Southwest of Hong Kong, Macau, and Zhuhai.

http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/hainan/hainan-china.gif
http://www.travelchinaguide.com/images/map/hainan/hainan-s.gif
http://www.hgtech.com/Images/sanya.jpg

[datachicane]

Exactly what similarity is there between Sanya and Coos Bay?
:saywhat:

If those stats conjure up Coos Bay in the mind of some poster, methinks he's either never been anywhere near Coos Bay or is in dire need of an adjustment in medication...

Next we'll hear how Shanghai is "China's Reedsport".

[The Doctor]

Exactly what similarity is there between Sanya and Coos Bay?
:saywhat:

If those stats conjure up Coos Bay in the mind of some poster, methinks he's either never been anywhere near Coos Bay or is in dire need of an adjustment in medication...

Next we'll hear how Shanghai is "China's Reedsport".

More to do with rumor mongering that real life similarities. Apologies for confusion.

[racer2c]

Sometimes I get the feeling that most of you would only truly be happy if the CCWS schedule revolved around two states; Wisconsin and Ohio.

I'd rather watch a Champ Car in China on a street circuit than an IRL race in my backyard. Any day.

[FRANKY]

Sometimes I get the feeling that most of you would only truly be happy if the CCWS schedule revolved around two states; Wisconsin and Ohio.

I'd rather watch a Champ Car in China on a street circuit than an IRL race in my backyard. Any day.

Who said anything about an IRL race? The point is that live Champ Car races are preferred.

There simply has to be a balance. Money making, money losing. Turning right, turning left. In the country, out of the country. With more leaning to NAFTA. Where at least there is an option of going to see a race.

The specs can stay the same, but not forever.

[racer2c]

I can't mention the IRL without your permission? Interesting. It was a analogy of how I feel.

Nope. The taped, 4:00 every race Sunday is perfect for me. Set the tape and I'm off enjoying the day. Live TV coverage means absolutely nothing to me. Zero. Ziltch. It's much more important to have a consistent time slot. You want to see a live race, then go to the race that is so important for you to attend.

This is a ridiculous issue. When 51% of the races are out of the States, than it will be an issue that concerns me. I call a street race in China 'growth', and I applaud it.

This NAFTA mantra is stupid. How many of you attend Mexico City? Exactly.

[jonovision_man]

This is a ridiculous issue. When 51% of the races are out of the States, than it will be an issue that concerns me. I call a street race in China 'growth', and I applaud it.


Agreed... the series can't only cater to the 1,000 fans that want to physically attend every continental race, that's not viable.

Anyone who will stump up the sanctioning fee and the money to get the cars to their track should be signed before they change their minds, the series is too fragile right now to ignore potential international markets. The more the merrier.

International series, U.S. base and flavour.

jono

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sometimes I get the feeling that most of you would only truly be happy if the CCWS schedule revolved around two states; Wisconsin and Ohio.

You could throw in Michigan too, thats an acceptably short drive from Cleveland for me. :laugh:

I'd like to see a geographically diverse Champ Car schedule, but more imprortantly, the series should be racing where the fans are. There are no fans in China or Argentina.

[jonovision_man]

There are no fans in China or Argentina.

There weren't many F1 fans in Shanghai, yet they've sold out over 200,000 tickets for the GP there this weekend. (BTW - totally OT... stunning facility)

South America has a lot of race fans, too, they just don't have many races, I think the Argentinian race is brilliant, hope it works out.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

As far as Global Events go, Champcar is NOT F1. You cannot count on a huge international TV audience and 150,000 fans wherever Champcar decides to stage a race. It might work, it might not. Suppose Argentina, China and another international event fail at the same time Champcar has abandoned RA and other traditional Champcar venues in North America. What's left then?

[jonovision_man]

As far as Global Events go, Champcar is NOT F1. You cannot count on a huge international TV audience and 150,000 fans wherever Champcar decides to stage a race. It might work, it might not. Suppose Argentina, China and another international event fail at the same time Champcar has abandoned RA and other traditional Champcar venues in North America. What's left then?

Canada! :)

Seriously, though, I don't think 2 new international events would be too much of a risk, assuming they are hooking up with the right promoters. I think in China anyway there is great interest in anything from the Western world, whether it's rock concert or motorsports.

I would LOVE to see Road America on the schedule, but as other posters have pointed out the money isn't there to subsidize events hoping they eventually come good again.

jono

[bdogg187]

Why is it that Grand Am and ALMS dont seem to have a problem with these natural road courses, while Champ Car is abandoning them?

Lets see:

Sebring
Mid-Ohio
Lime Rock
Infineon
Portland
Mosport
Road America
Road Atlanta
Laguna Seca
Mont-Tremblant
Watkins Glen
Virginia Intl. Raceway
Barber Motorsports Park

You know Champ Car is really big in Canada, why not run a Molson Indy Ontario at Mosport or a Molson Indy Quebec at Mont Tremblant?

[jonovision_man]

Why is it that Grand Am and ALMS dont seem to have a problem with these natural road courses, while Champ Car is abandoning them?

Lets see:

Sebring
Mid-Ohio
Lime Rock
Infineon
Portland
Mosport
Road America
Road Atlanta
Laguna Seca
Mont-Tremblant
Watkins Glen
Virginia Intl. Raceway
Barber Motorsports Park

You know Champ Car is really big in Canada, why not run a Molson Indy Ontario at Mosport or a Molson Indy Quebec at Mont Tremblant?

ALMS likely doesn't pay team assistance, though. If the cars show up for free, it's a lot easier to get the math to work.

Champ Car isn't really that big in Canada, it's big in the places that have races because Molson has done an amazing job marketing. If you moved the Toronto Indy to Mosport, you'd probably have half as many people show up. Not to mention the money you'd have to sink into the place to bring it up to safety. AND you'd have to negotiate with Don Panoz to use the place! :) (Although I doubt he'd put up too much fight on that one!)

I guess that's the problem with the natural terrain courses, most are out of date and need improvement that nobody's willing to do for one Champcar race a year that may or may not materialize. They're also out of urban centers to slip off people's radar if they're not race fans to begin with.

Sucks - I love seeing races out at Mosport. :)

jono

[RaceGrrl]

Half of the road courses you list are not safe for ChampCars.

Next. :rolleyes:





Why is it that Grand Am and ALMS dont seem to have a problem with these natural road courses, while Champ Car is abandoning them?

Lets see:

Sebring
Mid-Ohio
Lime Rock
Infineon
Portland
Mosport
Road America
Road Atlanta
Laguna Seca
Mont-Tremblant
Watkins Glen
Virginia Intl. Raceway
Barber Motorsports Park

You know Champ Car is really big in Canada, why not run a Molson Indy Ontario at Mosport or a Molson Indy Quebec at Mont Tremblant?

[mueber]

Both ALMS and Grand-Am are for hobbyists, and I'd be willing to bet that ALMS and Grand-Am are losing money hand over fist, as is Champ Car. If Champ car can get the price of a competitive team down to what it costs to run a 911 in the ALMS or Grand-Am, they can go to venues where no appreciable revenue is coming in. If that's what you want.

[RTKar]

As far as Global Events go, Champcar is NOT F1. You cannot count on a huge international TV audience and 150,000 fans wherever Champcar decides to stage a race. It might work, it might not. Suppose Argentina, China and another international event fail at the same time Champcar has abandoned RA and other traditional Champcar venues in North America. What's left then?

Amen, the ultimate race for the long term survival between Champcar versus the irl hinges on television ratings. I don't see how racing in China will build a following in North America enough to enhance ratings. Without TV ratings, the numbers of sponsors needed for the series to flourish will not invest in the series. Racing for quick cash, appears to me, to be very short term. It buys time but it doesn't strengthen the domestic fan base of Champcar. Also, it essentially hands over North American road courses to the irl. Anyone who's attended RA or MO at it's height saw 60,000,70,000, 80,000 people on race day. Wouldn't it be easier to try to win them back with better marketing than trying to play F1 overseas?

...and, I'm not against foreign races. I thought Brazil, England and Germany were sound ideas. People who are passionate race fans in countries with a long tradition of auto racing...

I am also not going to "bite" anyone nor follow ganassi or penske to the irl ... :shakehead

[nrc]

I'd love to see Champ car back at MidOhio and Road America. But if your in the situation of having to market yourself I don't think it makes much sense to do it twice in the same market. Milwaukee or Road America, Cleveland or Mid Ohio makes sense right to me right now. San Jose and Laguna Seca would seem to fly in the face of that logic. It would make more sense to start looking at Southern California options to Long Beach - San Diego anyone?

I've always said that you need 4 million dollars or two major sponsors to make one of these flyaway events worthwihle for the hit you take on your North American appeal. But the trouble is that it has to be money or sponsors you can count on. Unfortunately that hasn't been the case. Brazil, Japan, UK, Germany and now probably Seoul - all big money contracts that fell through. More events like those simply create more of the same kind of instability and uncertainty the breeds doubt about the series.

[racer2c]

Amen, the ultimate race for the long term survival between Champcar versus the irl hinges on television ratings. I don't see how racing in China will build a following in North America enough to enhance ratings. Without TV ratings, the numbers of sponsors needed for the series to flourish will not invest in the series. Racing for quick cash, appears to me, to be very short term. It buys time but it doesn't strengthen the domestic fan base of Champcar. Also, it essentially hands over North American road courses to the irl. Anyone who's attended RA or MO at it's height saw 60,000,70,000, 80,000 people on race day. Wouldn't it be easier to try to win them back with better marketing than trying to play F1 overseas?

...and, I'm not against foreign races. I thought Brazil, England and Germany were sound ideas. People who are passionate race fans in countries with a long tradition of auto racing...

I am also not going to "bite" anyone nor follow ganassi or penske to the irl ... :shakehead

We went through all this with CART. It all depends on the sponsors. If the series is a well defined series, and the teams understand the future plan of the series as a whole, you won't have the split interests that CART had. Target never wanted to go outside the states, but Fed Ex did etc. F1 sells global eyes for global sponsors. It's all about defining the series. If going outside the States in an ad hoc manner just for life support cash is the plan, then it is the wrong thing to do.

[Lizzerd]

Sometimes I get the feeling that most of you would only truly be happy if the CCWS schedule revolved around two states; Wisconsin and Ohio..

You forgot Michigan.

With all due respect, r2c, there were once a time that there were six Champ Car races that I could easily drive to from Indy, the longest being 5-6 hours (RA).

RA (one miss since 1994)
M-O (1992 through 2003)
Detroit (five consecutive races, mid-'90's)
MIS (most races from "88 to the last one)
Cleveland (have only gone once, last year)
Milwakee (still haven't been there, unfortunately)

I don't think it is a stretch to say that the heaviest concentration (relatively speaking, of course) of CCWS fans is in the four or five states surrounding Indiana. What this means, to me at least, is that this fan will only be attending one or at most two CCWS races next year instead of five (when indy was a race). Sorry if that sounds selfish, but I'm also more upset about losing RA and M-O as series venues than I am about not being able to attend them.

[racer2c]

You forgot Michigan.

With all due respect, r2c, there were once a time that there were six Champ Car races that I could easily drive to from Indy, the longest being 5-6 hours (RA).

RA (one miss since 1994)
M-O (1992 through 2003)
Detroit (five consecutive races, mid-'90's)
MIS (most races from "88 to the last one)
Cleveland (have only gone once, last year)
Milwakee (still haven't been there, unfortunately)

I don't think it is a stretch to say that the heaviest concentration (relatively speaking, of course) of CCWS fans is in the four or five states surrounding Indiana. What this means, to me at least, is that this fan will only be attending one or at most two CCWS races next year instead of five (when indy was a race). Sorry if that sounds selfish, but I'm also more upset about losing RA and M-O as series venues than I am about not being able to attend them.

I understand completely and empathize with all that lost a race near them. It would suck. Heck, I miss Nazareth. It's no M-O or RA, but I went every year.

[RTKar]

You forgot Michigan.


I don't think it is a stretch to say that the heaviest concentration (relatively speaking, of course) of CCWS fans is in the four or five states surrounding Indiana. What this means, to me at least, is that this fan will only be attending one or at most two CCWS races next year instead of five (when indy was a race). Sorry if that sounds selfish, but I'm also more upset about losing RA and M-O as series venues than I am about not being able to attend them.


The same could pretty much be said for me..... More importantly, look how NASCAR was built...years of racing primarily in the south. That's what CART had in the midwest and Champcar could have, a foundation to start from (albeit shaky). I 'd much rather see a strong marketing effort in the midwest to re-affirm or re-build the series. Racing overseas to generate revenue makes sense only if the revenue is reinvested in the series, however it doesn't address the issue of building a fan base on this continent...only the die hards will bother watching on television. The immediate issue should be brand identification and generating TV viewers. The REALLY big money lies in television.

[Methanolandbrats]

You forgot Michigan.

With all due respect, r2c, there were once a time that there were six Champ Car races that I could easily drive to from Indy, the longest being 5-6 hours (RA).

RA (one miss since 1994)
M-O (1992 through 2003)
Detroit (five consecutive races, mid-'90's)
MIS (most races from "88 to the last one)
Cleveland (have only gone once, last year)
Milwakee (still haven't been there, unfortunately)

I don't think it is a stretch to say that the heaviest concentration (relatively speaking, of course) of CCWS fans is in the four or five states surrounding Indiana. What this means, to me at least, is that this fan will only be attending one or at most two CCWS races next year instead of five (when indy was a race). Sorry if that sounds selfish, but I'm also more upset about losing RA and M-O as series venues than I am about not being able to attend them. I agree. RA is less than two hours from my house, so naturally I would miss it on a personal level. But I am also very worried about Champcar abandoning too much of it's history and soul. This could be a huge logistical error. I was at RA when every bit of grass had a car parked on it and 80,000 people attended. 2003 was like going to a funeral. 2004 was better attended and it had an upbeat buzz to it. The event is coming back. Assuming there were 20,000 on Sunday at RA in 2004, that's 1.2 million dollars. Add in Fri, sat, other revenue and maybe we're at 1.7 million. How in the hell can RA and Champcar not arrive at some mutual agreement to break even as the event is rebuilt? Champcar needs the track and RA needs a cornerstone event. If FTG's *****boxes do turn a wheel on a roadcourse and the faucker "rents" RA in 2006, it could be a bad news for Champcar. Just a possibility.

[Rob]

This is a ridiculous issue. When 51% of the races are out of the States, than it will be an issue that concerns me.
Argentina
Long Beach
Fundidora Parque
Milwaukee
Portland
Cleveland
Toronto
Vancouver
San Jose
Denver
Montreal
Calgary
Laguna Seca
Las Vegas
China
Surfers
Mexico City

If this list is correct then my math says 53% of the races are outside the US.

[fourrunner]

I really don't care where the Races are ... As long as they're interesting to watch ... which I find all of them are

Facts are I went to 2 races this year, Toronto & Laguna Seca ... Expensive yes, but I had a better time at these two races then I had at all the Races at Nazareth I attended .... I went to Pocono also back in the eighties, but that's ancient history

The problem with local races to me is that it is perfunctory to attend them... I just get up & go ... after the firt couple of times ... I just go to the Paddock and look at everything I've seen before >>> I certainly enjoy the Race, but because it's so Close to where I live I just go home afterward all 3 days .(Of course I can't do that anymore)

When I travel to Races, I add a couple days and experience as much as I can.

I've had a better time each year I've attended Toronto because I get to know it better ... I'm sure there will be a downside to my interest level... I'll just change venues then...

As long as flights are reasonably cheap, I'll go anywhere !! Maybe even China!

The rest I'll watch on TV !!

Staying only in the USA has not helped the IRL one iota, so going outside may be the answer!

[racer2c]

Argentina
Long Beach
Fundidora Parque
Milwaukee
Portland
Cleveland
Toronto
Vancouver
San Jose
Denver
Montreal
Calgary
Laguna Seca
Las Vegas
China
Surfers
Mexico City

If this list is correct then my math says 53% of the races are outside the US.

Until it comes from the CCWS, it doesn't count.

[racer2c]

...

Staying only in the USA has not helped the IRL one iota, so going outside may be the answer!

Rest assured that they will be in hot pursuit if their watchdogs see it benefiting the CCWS.

[FTG]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.

[FRANKY]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.


:rolleyes:

[FRANKY]

Until it comes from the CCWS, it doesn't count.

Then this whole discussion doesn't count.

I think fans want reasonable results. They will sacrifice a few local races for the greater good. But it has to be shown why it's being done, and the sarcrifice can't out weigh what's gained.

[Methanolandbrats]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.

WTF?

[Sean O'Gorman]

WTF?

Apparently being angry about wanting races located near you makes you a racist now.

[RTKar]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.

No one said anything about hating foreigners nor did anyone make a racist statement.... :shakehead

We are discussing the best way to insure Champcar's survival...like adults...I think...

[Ankf00]

tell me one more time so that i'll understand
are you sure hank done it this way?
no I don't think hank done it this way...

[Lizzerd]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.

Wow... can we all say "playing the race card" when there isn't even a deck on the table? What the heck are you trying to say here??

:confused: :saywhat: :thumdown:

[Clown]

I suggest NASCAR for all racing fans who hate foreigners. As an added bonus, there are no black people either.I don't know what the **** brought that on.... but its ****ing funny :rofl::laugh:

[FTG]

Let me see if I can make my point a little more clearly.

Running money losing races is not going to guarantee champ cars "survival." It's just common sense that you can't survive if you keep losing money year after year.

Those who are arguing otherwise are starting to sound like a bunch of gomers and rednecks.

It sucks if you lose your local race. It's OK to be upset about losing Road America, but gomers and rednecks just piss me off.

Gomer and red neck thinking hasn't helped the IRL. It won't help Champ Car.
But if you really feel that way, there are lots of people who also feel that way at the local NASCAR track.

[pchall]

Apparently being angry about wanting races located near you makes you a racist now.

Or you are oblivious to satire.

[racer2c]

Then this whole discussion doesn't count.

I think fans want reasonable results. They will sacrifice a few local races for the greater good. But it has to be shown why it's being done, and the sarcrifice can't out weigh what's gained.

Since when did they ever count?

[Methanolandbrats]

Let me see if I can make my point a little more clearly.

Running money losing races is not going to guarantee champ cars "survival." It's just common sense that you can't survive if you keep losing money year after year.

Those who are arguing otherwise are starting to sound like a bunch of gomers and rednecks.

It sucks if you lose your local race. It's OK to be upset about losing Road America, but gomers and rednecks just piss me off.

Gomer and red neck thinking hasn't helped the IRL. It won't help Champ Car.
But if you really feel that way, there are lots of people who also feel that way at the local NASCAR track. You're the Gomer. You sound just like a Track Forum Member who expects everyone to follow the leader, never question or debate sanctioning body decisions and just blindly goosestep in formation. And if someone does'nt agree with you start slinging stupid insults. This was a good discussion of Champcar History and possible future direction until you came along.

[jonovision_man]

Rest assured that they will be in hot pursuit if their watchdogs see it benefiting the CCWS.

The IRL has already set the precident racing in Japan, other international events aren't out of the question. Especially with road racing added to the sched. Not a lot of ovals accross those oceans, but a heck of a lot of street and road possibilites.

jono

[JAM26]

Come one, come all....to lovely Calgary, Alberta (as featured on the Amazing Race finale)!
I wonder what the date will be? I can assure you this race will be a success. It's a world class city that gets behind its events. There's already been a lot of excitement about a possible champcar race here.
I wonder if there'll be a champcargirls.com? :thumbup:

[FRANKY]

Let me see if I can make my point a little more clearly.

Running money losing races is not going to guarantee champ cars "survival." It's just common sense that you can't survive if you keep losing money year after year.

Those who are arguing otherwise are starting to sound like a bunch of gomers and rednecks.

It sucks if you lose your local race. It's OK to be upset about losing Road America, but gomers and rednecks just piss me off.

Gomer and red neck thinking hasn't helped the IRL. It won't help Champ Car.
But if you really feel that way, there are lots of people who also feel that way at the local NASCAR track.

Off Gomer.

Has a nice ring.

[jonovision_man]

Come one, come all....to lovely Calgary, Alberta (as featured on the Amazing Race finale)!
I wonder what the date will be? I can assure you this race will be a success. It's a world class city that gets behind its events. There's already been a lot of excitement about a possible champcar race here.
I wonder if there'll be a champcargirls.com? :thumbup:

Where is the proposed venue? It's not Race City, right? :P

jono

[pkvracing12]

Would you guys prefer there was no series at all?

I will miss RA, I attend every year, but after RA's actions during the off season the last two years this should not come as a surprise. IMO the fault is with RA not OWRS.

I may have to visit Portland next year for the first time.
go to cleveland!!

[FTG]

OK. Explain to me how "Replacing a road course in America with a road course in South America is going to ruin the tradition of Champ Car" is different from "replacing an American driver with a South American driver going to ruin the tradition of IndyCar."

[gjc2]

Instead of complaining about the make up of the 2005 schedule, shouldn't we be happy there will be a 2005 schedule?


George

[nrc]

OK. Explain to me how "Replacing a road course in America with a road course in South America is going to ruin the tradition of Champ Car" is different from "replacing an American driver with a South American driver going to ruin the tradition of IndyCar."

Why should people have to explain the difference between race and location to you? I didn't think racing in Europe would be a good idea either. Does that make me racist?

I think people need to separate the issue of American tracks lost from new overseas events. If we lose Road America or Laguna Seca it has nothing to do with whether China or Argentina are a good idea.

I think that relying on a big paycheck from a government or promoter that hasn't proven themselves reliable is a bad idea when Champ car needs to re-establish credability. Seoul certainly hasn't proven a boon in that regard.

[JAM26]

Where is the proposed venue? It's not Race City, right? :P

jono
Hopefully down around the Stampede Grounds. It'd be tricky but it can be done!

[FTG]

No check from Seoul, no Seoul. No check from RA, no RA.

Check from Seoul we go there. Check from RA we go there. Check from Calgary we go there.

(If I was a a little hard on people its because I've put up with a decade of this "preserving the tradition" crap and am really hoping that someone, somewhere will learn something from it.)

[Sean O'Gorman]

(If I was a a little hard on people its because I've put up with a decade of this "preserving the tradition" crap and am really hoping that someone, somewhere will learn something from it.)

It isn't about tradition, at least not for me. It is about the fact that you can't build a series with a fractured fan base, which is what you'll get when you are a not-quite North American but not quite international series.

[BNica]

I just hope that if they race in Argentina, they get paid, same for China, and same for any European 'tours'.

That being said, if they manage to keep Road America, Cleveland, Milwaukee, Long Beach, and Laguna, I could care less where else they race.

[RTKar]

It isn't about tradition, at least not for me. It is about the fact that you can't build a series with a fractured fan base, which is what you'll get when you are a not-quite North American but not quite international series.

Yup...agreed.

[bdogg187]

Running money losing races is not going to guarantee champ cars "survival." It's just common sense that you can't survive if you keep losing money year after year.


You know what gets my shorts in a wad, at one point these races were not money losers, they were everyones favorite races. Thanks Tony, who needs unique and challenging courses with character when we can have 1.5 Mile D-ovals! :mad:

[Methanolandbrats]

Ya know what, none of this **** matters. Comparing American Open Wheel Racing now to the 1994 season about sums it up. Outside of a few thousand people, nobody GAF about Champcar and only a few dozen people care about the IRL. Champcar will not survive as an international street parade series. No way in hell. If American Open Wheel Racing even exists in a few years it will make the ALMS look like a popular series. Put a fork in American Road Racing, it's just about over. Won't be long and there will be nothing but NASCAR and GrandAM.

[Andrew Longman]

Ya know what, none of this **** matters. Comparing American Open Wheel Racing now to the 1994 season about sums it up. Outside of a few thousand people, nobody GAF about Champcar and only a few dozen people care about the IRL. Champcar will not survive as an international street parade series. No way in hell. If American Open Wheel Racing even exists in a few years it will make the ALMS look like a popular series. Put a fork in American Road Racing, it's just about over. Won't be long and there will be nothing but NASCAR and GrandAM.

I hope you're wrong, but I can't argue with you.

It is ridiculous that the "premier" NA racing series isn't racing at RA (I can actually accept Laguna and MO, though very reluctantly). That track and these cars were literally made for each other.

But if the fans don't show up I can't deny the realities.

Still, I am so sad and mad that this year's pilgramage from NJ to RA was the last for me and my 5 and 11 year olds. No more methanolandbrats.

[Methanolandbrats]

From Robin Miller "Even though Open Wheel Racing Series had to pay Las Vegas Motor Speedway $500,000 to be part of the program, it was money well spent. Champ Car needs a few ovals to keep its diversity, it also needs another American venue and maybe with a year's worth of promotion the crowd could include some hardcore Champ Car fans from Mexico, Canada and southern California."................

Hmmmm, sort of shoots the old "we won't go there unless the track pays a sanctioning fee" arguement all to hell. Champcar has made a concious decision to become an urban party, casual fan series and abandon real racetracks. Sure you can get 50,000 people in an urban area to walk up to a race for the day. They are looking for something to do locally. They would just as soon go to a jazz festival, a beer tasting or a hot air balloon festival. Will those local, casual fans watch the rest of the series on TV, travel to a real racetrack or buy a lot of sponsor product and team gear? The answer is no.

[RTKar]

Hmmmm, sort of shoots the old "we won't go there unless the track pays a sanctioning fee" arguement all to hell. Champcar has made a concious decision to become an urban party, casual fan series and abandon real racetracks. Sure you can get 50,000 people in an urban area to walk up to a race for the day. They are looking for something to do locally. They would just as soon go to a jazz festival, a beer tasting or a hot air balloon festival. Will those local, casual fans watch the rest of the series on TV, travel to a real racetrack or buy a lot of sponsor product and team gear? The answer is no.

:thumbup: ...once again, I agree wholeheartedly. The sad thing is, it won't be known if the choices made today by the powers that be were correct until it's too late....

[Sean O'Gorman]

Here is something to ponder. Is Champ Car's decline over the past few years due to the departure of "traditional" race venues (excluding Indy), or are those tracks disappearing due to the decline of Champ Car in other areas?

[RTKar]

Here is something to ponder. Is Champ Car's decline over the past few years due to the departure of "traditional" race venues (excluding Indy), or are those tracks disappearing due to the decline of Champ Car in other areas?

The demise of formula car racing in the U.S. (See NASCAR)
The demise of road racing general (see NASCAR)
...and years of pitiful managemant in CART finally catching up with what the series is now.
A tremendous hole has been dug; business ties burned,lost fans, lack of generating new fans and bringing the old back, lack of a sound TV package, No brand identity,At times poor recent races - too many long yellows...just a general lack of professionalism.... whether Champcar can dig itself out has yet to be seen.

[NoDoors NoDales]

The demise of formula car racing in the U.S. (See NASCAR)
The demise of road racing general (see NASCAR)
...and years of pitiful managemant in CART finally catching up with what the series is now.
A tremendous hole has been dug; business ties burned,lost fans, lack of generating new fans and bringing the old back, lack of a sound TV package, No brand identity,At times poor recent races - too many long yellows...just a general lack of professionalism.... whether Champcar can dig itself out has yet to be seen.

The split up is the reason for the decline..Just look at whats happening to the IRL. Its the old CART, which is exactly what Tony wanted all along, and now he pretty much has it. So i say to OWRS FTG and screw Indy cause the 500 will never be the same in my opinion. Lets go out on our own like CART should have done years ago. OWRS needs to go race were there will be fans and money, and that seems to be street races and international.

I started going to CART races in 93' and I went the Michigan 500 and US 500 till 98' and I saw the demise of the Open Wheel fan base. The last 3 years they couldnt draw flies there. The old fan base is long gone, most have gone to NASCAR and a few said screw racing. OWRS needs to treat the next few years and business, not traditions

[Steve99]

I was there too. The crowd was'nt that bad. I've been going there since the beginning. I've seen many of these cycles: rise and fall of CanAm, IMSA GTP, CART....it takes time to rebuild an event. If they alienate the "hard-core", they might as well pack it up and call it a day. How many NEW domestic fans are going to watch a horribly edited broadcast of a Chinese Street Parade on Spike.........it will be a number awfully close to zero. I have hung with this 10 year war in the hope the strong points of the traditional Champcar Series could be saved. Might not be worth it anymore. This sport is really, and I mean really in the tank.

I went to the Road America Champ Car race this year, and I just got back from Petit Le Mans at Road Atlanta. Road Atlanta did a much better (1000x) job of promoting the race in the area. In Wisconsin, nobody knew there was a race in the area. Not the hotels, the restaurants, the fast food places. No signs on the highway. Nothing. Road Atlanta had TV commercials airing, signs posted throughout the Atlanta area, rented electronic signs directing you to the track, etc.

[nrc]

Obviously the damage Tony George has done is the big problem. But I think the road racing venues have become as complacent about open wheel racing as the ovals before them. The ovals have their NASCAR dates and the road courses have their club dates. So when it comes to open wheel it's just throw open the gates and collect the check from Honda or Toyota. Since they've left there has been little in the way of big sponsorship and they're simply not motivated to go out and find their own.

As for the Petit comparison, the difference is simple: the series owner owns the track and he's motivated to make Petit into another Sebring.

[jonovision_man]

As for the Petit comparison, the difference is simple: the series owner owns the track and he's motivated to make Petit into another Sebring.

There's a counter-example, though... Toronto. Molson Indy has a massive amount of advertising, media attention, banners throughout the downtown core, etc. ALMS @Mosport tends to have a few promotional events before their race. The only sign of the race I saw this year was that they had a display at the Molson Indy, and a few TV commercials. Better than nothing, but I doubt many people really paid attention to it.

jono

[Dirty Sanchez]

As for the Petit comparison, the difference is simple: the series owner owns the track and he's motivated to make Petit into another Sebring.Basically, he's just showing that it can be done. Champ Car should take notice and not just say... "oh well its just different".

66,000 at Petit this weekend. :thumbup:

I'll be there again next year too. I doubt I will invest a fraction of the dollars in seeing Champ Car races as I do F1 and ALMS. They haven't earned it... yeah, I know... like they gaf.

The current regime doesn't seem to have much of a long term business plan, in my opinion. Chasing the dollar, yuan, rupee or whatever only to see half of these new events tank while having to swallow the loss of Michigan, Detroit, Road America, Mid-Ohio... the list goes on... is not about building the series long term. Its smash and grab stuff and it will catch up to them. :o

Ofcourse, I'll still be watching it all go down (when its on).





p.s. Race Director is for fools. Paying for something you should get for free. Suckers. :shakehead

[nrc]

p.s. Race Director is for fools. Paying for something you should get for free. Suckers. :shakehead

There's free video of F1 and ALMS practice?