airbus 380

[Ankf00]

Ank: but you gotta admit, that terminal D is pretty sweet--once you're actually IN it.
FAmerican :p

Actually, it's sad how ridiculously boring Continental's new Terminal E @ IAH is compared to DFW's Terminal D

The SkyTram or whatever is a ridiculous improvement over that old TrAAin crapwagon they made you ride from terminal to terminal.

However, I'm sticking to my guns, FAmerican, Set Love Free, I loves me some $99 JetBlue roundtrip TX-NYC departing TEN BLOODY MINUTES away from my house :p

[oddlycalm]

Top management of Airbus and EADS step down. Initially this was being reported as related to production delays, but NYT is now reporting an insider trading investigation. Top Officials of Airbus and EADS Step Down (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/03/business/worldbusiness/03airbus.html?ex=1152590400&en=6b20cbb6e1d35956&ei=5065&partner=MYWAY)

Mr. Forgeard, 59, was criticized after French regulators found that he had sold $2.5 million worth of EADS stock shortly before a March 20 announcement that DaimlerChrysler and Lagardère would be reducing their stakes in the company, and three months before news of the A380 delays erased billions of euros from the company's market value. He has denied wrongdoing and said the stock sales were coincidental. Yep, that's a helluva coincidence alright... :gomer: Too bad he'll probably walk. He's just the kind of guy I'd like to see on the rotisserie of Elliot Spitzer's grill... :D

oc

[Ankf00]

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/headline/biz/4051434.html

A350 re-design completed and unveiled...

2006 sales:
Airbus - 117
Boeing - 480

pwned :gomer:

[nrc]

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601085&sid=adX2UODtIReE&refer=europe

Streiff also apologized for the delivery delay in the A380 and pledged to learn from mistakes in the production process of that aircraft.

``Airbus is ``learning to be humble, learning to change our bad habits and learning in many areas of this perfect company where we need to improve,'' Streiff said.

Can you really claim to be perfect and say you need to improve in the same sentence? :saywhat:

[Ankf00]

You can if you're French... works wonders for their army. :gomer:

[oddlycalm]

[url] Can you really claim to be perfect and say you need to improve in the same sentence? :saywhat: Apparently you can say pretty much anything you want if you have the treasuries of several governments backing your faux pas de jour.

oc

[chop456]

http://www.newtechspy.com/articles06/boeing797.html

Is this for real?

[oddlycalm]

Is this for real? As far as I know it's speculation at this point. It's no secret that some of the worlds major hubs are saturated and can't handle any additional traffic, so the only option is to produce aircraft with more seats.

oc

[Classic Apex]

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/aviation_hobby/read.main/90774/

[dando]

The mirrors will never work. ;) :D

-Kevin

[nrc]

Still don't like the idea of anything quite that big.

[Ankf00]

idiots

[coolhand]

Does the A350XWB look like an O'**** reaction to the 787? with the newer wing design. It was almost like they took a 787 model and painted it for those photos.

[cameraman]

If they actually could knock something like 20-25% off the fuel/passenger-mile number, Boeing won't be able to build them fast enough. It won't matter what it looks like.

[Turbodog]

Who do you trust? ... Someone from Seattle or Paris?? I choose the Seahawks ;)

[ferrarigod]

British 777 with those hot, huge, GE90's running through a cloud layer into Gatwick. H-O-T.

http://p.airliners.net/photos/middle/5/0/1/1091105.jpg

[ferrarigod]

757 coming into Gatwick. :thumbup:
http://p.airliners.net/photos/middle/2/0/4/1093402.jpg

[emjaya]

THE Airbus A380, the world's largest commercial airliner, took its first passengers aloft on a test flight, as the company announced a fresh management shake-up to grapple with delays plaguing the superjumbo.


“It's fabulous, impressive,” gushed Ludovic Lesbats, one of 474 Airbus employees who volunteered for a seven-hour flight designed to test the plane's cabin arrangements.

Passengers speaking to reporters after the 6500km trip across Europe hailed the aircraft's quietness and the comfort of its interior.

“We didn't feel the take-off ... and people could move about without any discomfort,” Mr Lesbats said.



http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20356003-1702,00.html

[eiregosod]

British 777 with those hot, huge, GE90's running through a cloud layer into Gatwick. H-O-T.

http://p.airliners.net/photos/middle/5/0/1/1091105.jpg


awesome pic.

that's some darn complimicated fluid dynamics

[chop456]

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/sep2006/gb20060921_533332.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index _businessweek+exclusives

[ferrarigod]

http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/sep2006/gb20060921_533332.htm?chan=top+news_top+news+index _businessweek+exclusives

This is announced the day Boeing receives 40+ unidentified orderes. Good job EADS. :D Entering the jumbo market 30 years late, with a plane that hasn't made a deadline yet. Oh wait, they evacuated people on time, that is one thing that wasn't delayed. But on second thought, maybe testing the system was. . . . .

[oddlycalm]

Airbus and parent company EADS admitted on Thursday that wiring difficulties were likely to set back deliveries of the A380, the third announcement of delays since June 2005. Apparently their plan to use Lucas electrics exclusively hit a bit of a snag....:gomer:

oc

[coolhand]

If EADS was not propped up by governments would it survive this?

[TorontoWorker]

If EADS was not propped up by governments would it survive this?

1.The other rock hasn't fallen yet: The US action in direct EU government funding.

2. The A350 will not meet it's weight/mileage targets - let alone coming clsoe to the 787's numbers.

3. As a result the 350 will have to be given away at a loss thereby putting the company under more pressure.

4. The A380 will find that it's only market will be long haul as this aircraft cannot be used properly in a hub to hub market. I count 5 airlines that can use the A380. That market and the number of aircraft neeeded as a result is no where near what they quote to the industry for production totals. They should have called the A380 the "Bad Dreamliner" because this is what it is becoming.

5. BAE is going to shock this company and threaten it's health when they put out the press release saying they are selling their 20% stake. It looks like the British Govt was correct in not buying into this organization. BAE only got into it for the assembly/parts business end of it.

Losers.

[nrc]

4. The A380 will find that it's only market will be long haul as this aircraft cannot be used properly in a hub to hub market. I count 5 airlines that can use the A380. That market and the number of aircraft neeeded as a result is no where near what they quote to the industry for production totals. They should have called the A380 the "Bad Dreamliner" because this is what it is becoming.

It's been pretty much obvious from the start that the whole "ours is bigger than yours" thing clouded their judgement in a major way. Add to all that the fact that Boeing will be adding an overhauled, more efficient 747 to the mix and Airbus is in a pretty tight corner.

[TorontoWorker]

that's some darn complimicated fluid dynamics

And flip a poor little 172 who wanders by even 8 miles behind!

[ferrarigod]

It's been pretty much obvious from the start that the whole "ours is bigger than yours" thing clouded their judgement in a major way. Add to all that the fact that Boeing will be adding an overhauled, more efficient 747 to the mix and Airbus is in a pretty tight corner.

Well the rumor on airliners.net and other websites are that Boeing may not even follow that plan to make a 747-8 until it can see how much damage the A380 does to the 744.

The A380 is going to hurt EDS in my opinion, and if the 787 can really deliver what is promised, the A350 is going to be hurting, as will all of Airbus. They will need much larger government help if everyones estimation, and mine, is correct. I just can't believe how well Boeing has comeback after losing the aircraft sales and revenue for the last few years before the Dreamliner and some of its customers were announced. Replacing the 767 with the 787 is going to be huge. If they then can take that tech along with the GE90's and fix the 748, and make a new 757, I will be shocked and stunned. This could get really ugly for Airbus over the next 10 years.

Good job Boeing:thumbup:

[nrc]

A lot of people credit Alan Mulally for Boeing's turn-around. It will be interesting to see if he can do the same for Ford.

[ferrarigod]

A lot of people credit Alan Mulally for Boeing's turn-around. It will be interesting to see if he can do the same for Ford.

I know the key to Fords, GM's, Chrylser's, Delta, NWA, United, AA, and everyone like them. Break the unions, use that extra cash to fix your crappy parts/service, and sell cars for more than it costs them to be produced(sell tickets for more than you need to cover costs)

The unions are the key, and that will be hard for anyone to work around. IMO, those unions, and the rules and benefits the members get are beyond insane for both industries.

[JoeBob]

Tack on another year to the ScareBus delays: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061003/ap_on_bi_ge/france_airbus

[Wheel-Nut]

Boeing should offer the air companies in waiting special lease offers on their 747!!

[coolhand]

damn i was going to post this :mad:

[ferrarigod]

How wild would first delivery of a fleet of 787's before A380's.

I would laugh my butt off. With enough delays, anything can happen. I'm sure there is something else they didn't plan well on the greatest and most perfectly timed aircraft in ALL of the WORLD!

[Ankf00]

douchebags might cancel A350

http://www.forbes.com/2006/10/05/airbus-eads-boeing-biz-man-cx_cn_1005airbus.html?partner=yahootix

[TravelGal]

damn i was going to post this :mad:

Me too. Just finished reading the weekly rundown. The Travel Insider says their A400M military fighter program is rumoUred to be in trouble also. :shakehead

edit: now the betting is on which of the launch carriers bails first. So far the money is on Emirates but nothing is certain.
So hard to understand when they have planes flying now that have passed the required tests. :scratch head:

[ferrarigod]

douchebags might cancel A350

http://www.forbes.com/2006/10/05/airbus-eads-boeing-biz-man-cx_cn_1005airbus.html?partner=yahootix

they are so far behind on orders, and on technology for this A350, and they're running out of money and production time. even their unproven predictions on A350 capabilities don't match up with published 787 stats. ahahah.

I was just joking about the 787 coming out before the A380 a few posts back, but honestly that looks like it could happen. Maybe not first plane delivery, but perhaps first complete fleet. Wow.

Airbus had such a huge advatage with the A330 line, and was catching the Boeing 737 sales for all series, I just can't believe how much they have screwed the pooch.

The A380 was a bad idea when it was bantered about in the mid-90's, and now its an even worse idea.

If I were Airbus, I would dump the A380 and get seriuos about the A350. Jumbo planes just aren't used that much as hub-hub planes are becoming less likely. Only place the A380 for sure will be needed and welcome is the short domestic Japan flights that will use single set 800 seats config.

Why Airbus wanted to compete against the 747 I'll never understand. I don't know if Boeing will continue with the 748 for passenger service, who knows, but they could have new engines, and airframe extensions online before Airbus could even wake up from this nap. Challenging a 30 year old record of being a great plane is pretty funny, especially when the 747 was not a high sale plan compared to the 767 and 737.

Go Boeing Go:thumbup:

738 - Nice
777 - brilliant, 777-2ER beyond awesome
787 - brilliant, extended range will be crazy(and boeing needs to plan it well as to not cut into shorter range 777's)
748 - ummm, i guess we're gonna find out about passenger carriers soon, since as of a month ago they had no interest. the 748-F cargo looks pretty good though :cool:


edit: now the betting is on which of the launch carriers bails first. So far the money is on Emirates but nothing is certain.


thats where my money would be if I had to choose one. I believe they are already looking at more 777's mixed with some 787's. We shall see . . . . .

As of yesterday I think Singapore came out and said there was no way they were cancelling their order. But I might be confusing them with someone, I'll go look again.

[chop456]

Airbus CEO's resignation accepted by EADS, source says (http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003292355_webairbusceo06.html)

:gomer:

[Ankf00]

ferrarigod: yes, but nixing the A350 would be the stupidest move they could pull. the 787 has already provided Boeing with a testbed for their composite utilization, manufacturing & testing, on top of all the other new technology.

the small widebody market would be all Boeing's, and over the next 20 years it's far too huge a market to abandon completely.

plus A320/737 is the next major market to open up and Boeing will have a huge head start on new technologies to incoporate...

[coolhand]

what is the 738?

I have heard of the Y1 project that is supposed to be the furute 737 repalcment.

is the 738 just a heavily upgraded composite 737?

[mapguy]

what is the 738?

I have heard of the Y1 project that is supposed to be the furute 737 repalcment.

is the 738 just a heavily upgraded composite 737?

It is a 737-800.

[ferrarigod]

what is the 738?

I have heard of the Y1 project that is supposed to be the furute 737 repalcment.

is the 738 just a heavily upgraded composite 737?

Sorry, airline dorks rubbing off on me. When using airplanes you just use the first 2 numbers plus the designation. Like mapman said 738 = 737-800, just as 748 = 747-800.

Same goes for all other Boeings and Airbi.

[chop456]

Friday

PARIS – The parent company of Airbus, denied Friday that it had agreed to accept a resignation letter from the European planemaker's new chief executive, Christian Streiff.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003292355_webairbusceo06.html



Monday

PARIS - Airbus parent EADS has accepted the resignation of the European airplane maker's chief executive, Christian Streiff, and agreed to name one of its own co-CEOs to replace him, people familiar with the decision said Monday.
http://www.kansascity.com/mld/kansascity/business/15716475.htm


:gomer:

[coolhand]

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,13130-2406553,00.html

[oddlycalm]

The problem Airbus has now is credibility. Their new CEO's have been staying just long enough to understand the full picture then line up a career plan B. Their delivery promises are no longer taken seriously. Their claims that they can deliver a 70% composite A350 are simply not believed. This is a company where the primary question in customer circles is how long they can remain in business.

The 70% composite claim in particular seems like a hollow marketing department reaction to the Boeing 787 which is 50% composite. Problem is that anyone that knows airplanes knows that 70% composite would mean that every major structure on the aircraft outside of the landing gear and engines would need to be composite and Airbus is two generations behind Boeing when it comes to using composites. The A380 is just 20% composite and is proving to be quite a handful. Whether the advertised delivery date is in 2012 or 2014 is no matter because the potential customers clearly believe neither.

oc

[TravelGal]

Comment from a travel writer friend of mine. Don't know if it was covered in the times link. I can't get it to open.

What helped Airbus get started and for so long was that its formation was politically motived. That is what is killing it now. It cannot make decisions based upon sensible economical realities and certainly not react to anything within a reasonable timeframe. It has to take national politics into account as the primary directive. This means that the nations supporting it must continue and will even invest MORE in this slowly sinking enterprise because they cannot let their honor be questioned.

It remains to be seen whether the new CEO (who was one of the ones that argued with the recently departed one) is the answer to the problem or the problem that the one who just left referred to.

Whew.

edit: And Emirates just put in an order for 10 (?) Boeing cargo planes. Forgot the number.

[ferrarigod]

edit: And Emirates just put in an order for 10 (?) Boeing cargo planes. Forgot the number.

Boeing just announced some BBJ's. One of them being a 748i. First order for a 748 in non-cargo form. If they can get some specs and a timeline on the 748, should be pretty interesting to see what everyone does.

Airbi is f****ed. They will be 4 years late if they persue the A350, which will then put them another 4 years behind for the replacements for the A320's and 737's.

good luck airbi, you'll need it.:yuck:

[coolhand]

Comment from a travel writer friend of mine. Don't know if it was covered in the times link. I can't get it to open.

What helped Airbus get started and for so long was that its formation was politically motived. That is what is killing it now. It cannot make decisions based upon sensible economical realities and certainly not react to anything within a reasonable timeframe. It has to take national politics into account as the primary directive. This means that the nations supporting it must continue and will even invest MORE in this slowly sinking enterprise because they cannot let their honor be questioned.

It remains to be seen whether the new CEO (who was one of the ones that argued with the recently departed one) is the answer to the problem or the problem that the one who just left referred to.

Whew.

edit: And Emirates just put in an order for 10 (?) Boeing cargo planes. Forgot the number.


Exactly, when you have one government supporting a company you have to deal with enough politics. Multpy it by 4-5 or whatever is in charge of that mulpile gove consortium that is always fighting for controll with one another. Also dealign with all the labor laws in all the different countries the project is in.

[ferrarigod]

http://us.airliners.net/photos/middle/5/7/7/1099775.jpg

[Ankf00]

pizzown3d.

[chop456]

If this was a fight, the ref would stop it. :tony:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003313497_airbus20.html


Airbus conceded Thursday that the chances of making a profit on the 555-seat A380 model had slipped years into the future because of cost overruns and production delays.

The planemaker will reach the break-even point in the program with the delivery of the 420th A380, according to the latest analysis, compared with 270 aircraft in a 2005 business plan, Airbus said in a report posted on the Web site of parent company European Aeronautic Defence & Space.

[KLang]

420? :eek: Do they really think they can sell anywhere close to that many of the those monsters?

[dando]

420? :eek: Do they really think they can sell anywhere close to that many of the those monsters?

About as good of a chance as monkeys flying out of my butt. :laugh:

-Kevin

[Ankf00]

About as good of a chance as monkeys flying out of my butt. :laugh:

-Kevin

lemurs come in small packages. :gomer:

[G.]

European bureaucracy has made the US the greatest nation in the world!:D

(with a shout-out to AUZ as second, cuz they know what Indy means)

[coolhand]

420? :eek: Do they really think they can sell anywhere close to that many of the those monsters?

Yeah wow.

they only have 168 :rofl:

[chop456]

PARIS, Nov 6 (Reuters) - European plane maker Airbus (EAD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research), hit by costly delays for its A380 superjumbo and trying to reduce costs in the face of a lower dollar, will cut the number of its suppliers to around 500 from 3,000, a spokesman said on Monday.

http://today.reuters.com/news/articleinvesting.aspx?view=CN&storyID=2006-11-06T182009Z_01_L06503286_RTRIDST_0_TRANSPORT-AIRBUS-UPDATE-2.XML&rpc=66&type=qcna


Now they're dragging everyone else down with their unprecedented level of suck. They should rename the A380 the Albatross.

[Andrew Longman]

Every time this thread gets bumped I think "what now?"

Boeing did some brilliant things with the 747 but they also got lucky (not really the right word) when crashes hurt L1011 and DC10 sales.

In this case Boeing also was clever and did their homework, but Airbus has shot both their feet and legs off with this.

It is possible the whole project will just get killed? At some point orders will be too low to make any sense.

[ferrarigod]

It is possible the whole project will just get killed? At some point orders will be too low to make any sense.

Wow, that would be huge. I don't know if it would kill EADS, but it would probably take a bunch more government money to keep it afloat if they dropped the A380.

I don't think we are there yet, but soon the delays and pulled orders may = the same cost as scrapping, and my oh my would it get interesting quickly.

I doubt this would happen, but the 748i and 748F really would be a welcome edition to the market. Boeing already has a 744 platform, so new engines, 787 composites and a longer fuselage could make this all quite fun over the next couple of years.

:thumbup:

[SteveH]

787 must get unfat


http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/chi-0611070237nov07,0,5828991.story?coll=chi-business-hed
Boeing looks to take weight off 787
Redesign to lighten plane, save money
Advertisement


Bloomberg News

November 7, 2006

Boeing Co. plans to redesign some parts of its 787 Dreamliner to trim the plane's weight by as much as 5,000 pounds.

The work could reduce the price of the aircraft because fewer raw materials will be needed, Michael Bair, the plane's program manager, said Monday.

The fuel-efficient Dreamliner, which will be made with about 55 percent carbon-fiber composites by weight, needs to be about 2 percent lighter to meet targets set by Boeing and customers, who had ordered 432 of the planes as of Oct. 25. The company expects the planes to be delivered on time.

"It's a matter of looking at individual parts and saying, `Did we optimize this?"' Bair said. "In some places the answer was no. It's a fairly long list of items."

Parts like brackets and wing ribs were overdesigned, Bair said. Last month, the Chicago-based planemaker added $1 billion to the 787's research-and-development budget to ensure it is delivered on time and meets customer requirements.

The increased research spending should help lower the 787's weight and improve Boeing's coordination with suppliers.

"The issues that Boeing is having with weight and schedule are entirely typical for a new aircraft program, and management appears to be taking the right steps to mitigate these problems," Robert Stallard, an analyst with Banc of America Securities in New York, said Monday in a report to investors.

"Success is not guaranteed, though, and delays and further increases to R&D spending could yet occur."

Boeing has eight contingency plans to help keep the plane on schedule for delivery in 2008. Only one has been funded. It calls for wiring systems to be installed in Seattle rather than at supplier facilities as planned.

"We've not brought any work in house yet, and hopefully we won't," Bair said.

Additional mechanics are being hired to ensure labor is available for contingency work, Bair said.

Bair also reiterated plans to increase 787 production to meet overwhelming demand for the plane, which has an order backlog valued at more than $60 billion, making it Boeing's most successful sales effort.

About 112 planes will be built in 2008 and 2009. Production increases would occur in 2011, Bair said.
Copyright © 2006, Chicago Tribune

[SteveH]

http://www.chicagobusiness.com/cgi-bin/news.pl?id=22773

FedEx cancels Airbus order, switches to Boeing

Nov. 07, 2006

(AP) — FedEx Corp. said Tuesday it has canceled its order for 10 Airbus A380 jets, the new jumbo double-decker plane that has been dogged by numerous delays.
The company's FedEx Express unit has ordered 15 Boeing Co. 777 Freighters, and has options to purchase an additional 15, FedEx said in a news release. The company cited Airbus' production delays as the reason for the decision.

Airbus recently doubled the production delay for the A380 jet to two years. To streamline production, Airbus on Monday said it will slash the number of suppliers it uses from 3,000 to 500 to streamline production.

[ferrarigod]

FedEx canceled. Wow Steve. That is ummmm, HUGE. Just the start of cancellations I would imagine.

[oddlycalm]

In this case Boeing also was clever and did their homework, but Airbus has shot both their feet and legs off with this.

It is possible the whole project will just get killed? At some point orders will be too low to make any sense. Airbus may have shot themselves in ways we won't know about for years, but one we know for certain is weight. As they were two generations behind in composites Airbus had to scramble and is stuck using a much different approach. Airbus is using a multi-layer carbon fiber/aluminum sandwich on the main fuselage sections. That approach will always weigh more than straight composite and has more labor cost.

When you design in weight, fuel consumption and cost disadvantages the outcome is rarely favorable.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

OC

Interesting. For the 380 or their other planes too? I assume you mean anything not still on the drawing board.

Yes, that will hurt them for a long time. Consolidation in the airline industry means there are fewer decision makers and fewer customers, even if the demand is about the same.

That means it is harder to hide weaknesses in your product.

I did work with the maintenence group for British Air a few years back and learned first hand how much maintenence and costs drive the business. They know they are flying commoditiy seats and once they get past a certain minimum for safety, on time performance and customer care it is all about price and hence cost. The actual equipment, so long as it is safe, doesn't matter to the customer.

To needlessly fly around a few extra tons of airframe for the life of the equipment is too stupid for any air exec to do these days.

[dando]

I wonder what the status is of the airport expansions in Memphis and Anchorage that were required to service these pigs. :saywhat:

-Kevin

[coolhand]

I love it

[Ankf00]

I wonder what the status is of the airport expansions in Memphis and Anchorage that were required to service these pigs. :saywhat:

-Kevin

If FedEx is cancelling I'm sure the taxpayers of Memphis are loving their new runway tab. Same goes for Orlando, JFK, Heathrow, etc. if the program is scrapped.

[nrc]

Boom.

Airbus -10
Boeing +15

http://finance.myway.com/ht/nw/bus/20061107/hlm_bus-wnas2223.html

[oddlycalm]

To needlessly fly around a few extra tons of airframe for the life of the equipment is too stupid for any air exec to do these days. Absolutely. Boeing was only a few percent off their weight target on the 787, something that can easily be achieved during the optimization process. Having an inherently heavier material is something that doesn't get fixed.

Airbus passing on the first round of composites was probably due to the fact that the only source for cutting edge tape layers and channel laminators was a US machine tool company. It wasn't until quite a bit later that MTorres Group began making a competitive product in Spain. Overcoming Boeing's head start is proving to be difficult/impossible.

The failure to meet customer expectations combined with parent EAD's revolving door CEO issues makes it look like the air is starting to go out of the great Airbus adventure...

oc

[Andrew Longman]

Airbus passing on the first round of composites was probably due to the fact that the only source for cutting edge tape layers and channel laminators was a US machine tool company. It wasn't until quite a bit later that MTorres Group began making a competitive product in Spain. Overcoming Boeing's head start is proving to be difficult/impossible. oc

Amazing. Nationalism, politics and pride caused them to stumble. What a surprise. Not that the US isn't also prone to it, but Boeing can and does produce stuff wherever they like using whatever they like (though building stuff in China and the like helps them keep certain governments friendly towards their products).

I could be wrong but the more I hear the less I see Airbus coming out of this.

Just an aside, wasn't Airbus among the first to get into composites? Did they then let their lead get away? And wasn't it a failure of an Airbus composite tail that doomed the Nov 12 2000 AA flight in NY (brought on by a illconceived flight procedure prescribed by AA)?

[cameraman]

Seems odd that FedEx would replace the a380 with the 777 freighter instead of the 747-400 or the -8. You would think that by ordering the a380 that FedEx was looking for a huge capacity 4 engine plane, yet they did not replace them with a huge capacity 4 engine plane. Did FedEx redo their math?

[Ankf00]

maybe a combo of that and timeframe in which they need it.

if airbust can't deliver on time nor meet performance goals, going with a known quantity in terms of performance & maintenance would be more prudent

[ferrarigod]

Seems odd that FedEx would replace the a380 with the 777 freighter instead of the 747-400 or the -8. You would think that by ordering the a380 that FedEx was looking for a huge capacity 4 engine plane, yet they did not replace them with a huge capacity 4 engine plane. Did FedEx redo their math?

the belief is that the time value of waiting for the planes, is not offset by the less capacity of the 777. The reason the 744 isn't used is b/c, if my math is correct, you can fit the freight cases better in the 777 than the 744. the 744 only uses 1 level for freight, so it makes no difference from that point of view. The lengthened body of the 748F would help,but time is obviously what killed their order. I'm sure they will evenetually have an A380 in their fleet over time. Just giving up profits now, is kinda wack.

[cameraman]

Sounds like the driving force must be that the FedEx DC-10 that lands here every day is rapidly reaching the end of its useful life.


Just saw this too:


EADS reported a net loss of 195m euros ($250m; £131m) during the third quarter, against net income of 279m euros in the same period last year.

[coolhand]

Dispute among EADS shareholders is delaying Airbus jet decision


http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,650210273,00.html

[JoeBob]

http://www.businessweek.com/bwdaily/dnflash/content/dec2006/db20061205_628913.htm


Lufthansa, Germany's largest airline and one of Airbus' biggest customers, placed a firm order on Dec. 6 for 20 of Boeing's new 747-8 passenger airplanes and 20 options—thus ensuring another two decades of passenger service for the iconic jumbo jet known as the "Queen of the Skies."


It was a market that Airbus had hoped to monopolize with its A380, which seats 555 people in three classes. The 747-8 Intercontinental can carry up to 460 passengers in three classes, but its fuel and aerodynamic efficiency means it can match the bigger A380's seat-mile costs—a key barometer in airplane economics.

"This is as good as it's going to get," says Teal Co. aerospace analyst Richard Aboulafia. "Boeing was able to get a European based, dedicated Airbus customer to be the first to endorse its new 747 passenger version. It's a blow to the Airbus A380."

[Don Quixote]

^^^^^^^
Does anybody else hear a sucking sound?

[dando]

Airbus = the FTG of the skies. :gomer:

-Kevin

[nrc]

Wow.

[cameraman]

The dude makes Tony George look rational:rolleyes:


Allan McArtor, chairman of Airbus North America, called the new 747-8 "a brand new Edsel," a reference to one of the most famous flops in automotive history.

"The 747 is on its last legs," McArtor said during an interview. "It doesn't have any legs to stand one. Boeing is trying to breathe life into a 1960s era design," he said.

"There is only so much you can do with a plane," McArtor added. "But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand. Had we not stumbled with the A380, there would not be orders like the Lufthansa order for the 747-800."

International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/06/business/boeing.php?page=1)

[coolhand]

One of the biggest European Carriers ops out on it.

I wonder if the government will step in.

[coolhand]

The dude makes Tony George look rational:rolleyes:



International Herald Tribune (http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/12/06/business/boeing.php?page=1)

I bet the 747-8 is further from 60s tech then the 380 is.

[oddlycalm]

Does anybody else hear a sucking sound? Yep, that's exactly what a sucking chest wound sounds like.:laugh:


"But it is irritating. Boeing is getting orders only because of our inability to meet demand." While not having anything to deliver is certainly the stuff big problems are made of, this guy is understating their problems by half. Boeing is seen as a reliable supplier while Airbus is now being seen as a company in continual crisis.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

I think it sounds like Airbus, not the 747, is on its last leg



It was a market that Airbus had hoped to monopolize with its A380, which seats 555 people in three classes. The 747-8 Intercontinental can carry up to 460 passengers in three classes, but its fuel and aerodynamic efficiency means it can match the bigger A380's seat-mile costs—a key barometer in airplane economics.


And that hardly sounds like Airbus has done much to surpass Boeing's "1960's design". What's the business case for the A380 again?

Toast. I still don't see how Airbus gets out from under this.

[Ankf00]

What's the business case for the A380 again?

servicing the far east market with hub & spoke, especially China with their restrictions on the number of foreign flights. China has since been loosening said restrictions, oops.

[coolhand]

Boeing felt for years that the market for jumbos was not that big so it was not worth a total new design. Something like <500 planes they felt. So with the 747-8 they are chipping away at that small margin the 380 had to work with.

[Andrew Longman]

servicing the far east market with hub & spoke, especially China with their restrictions on the number of foreign flights. China has since been loosening said restrictions, oops.

Better to treat a trade issue as trade issue through negotiation than as an engineering challenge requiring billions in investment. Oops, indeed.


Cost per mile higher than the competition
Takes too much time to turn around
Requires rebuilt runways and jetways
Strategic justification just went away
And they can't seem to figure out how to build it


If this thing ever gets in the air it will make the Concorde look like commercial genius.

[Ankf00]

the concorde was engineering genius.

the a380 is biggestwangcontest-genius, as in, not at all.

[Andrew Longman]

the concorde was engineering genius.

the a380 is biggestwangcontest-genius, as in, not at all.

It may have been impressive technologically but it could only operate with massive government subsidies (I recall something like $11,000 per passenger) even at the incredibly high ticket prices they charged. The market was too small at the true cost, the plane carried too few people, it can only fly over water, and the range was too short.

If you were a French or British taxpayer you'd no doubt be happy to give that kind of handout to rock and movie stars and wealthy executives just so you can have a prideful statement that your empire might not really be over. I believe that nationalism had more than a little to do with their decision to build the biggest plane ever.

Edit: Found the article (written by my brother actually). The cost of development, shifted to the government, was $5000 per passenger. Interestingly, the article from 2000 states how Airbus gave up on a replacement for the Concorde to build the A3XX. http://www.usnews.com/usnews/biztech/articles/000807/archive_014494.htm

[mapguy]

it can only fly over water,

Actually, it was only allowed to go supersonic over water. Over land it wasn't allowed.

On a related note: Boeing announces orders of 20 748's and options for 20 more for Lufthansa (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/news/2006/q4/061206a_nr.html)

[Andrew Longman]

Actually, it was only allowed to go supersonic over water. Over land it wasn't allowed.

Thanks, that's what I meant. But that ruled out, for example NY-LA and London-UAE routes which, with refueling, might have given them the Asia market.

[oddlycalm]

servicing the far east market with hub & spoke, especially China with their restrictions on the number of foreign flights. China has since been loosening said restrictions, oops. Another oops was the new airport in Hong Kong, which resolved the worst congestion situation in Asia. As I recall it wasn't announced until after the 380 project was greenlighted.

oc

[mapguy]

London-UAE routes which, with refueling, might have given them the Asia market.

The Concorde could easily have reached the UAE. Just not supersonic.

Having said that, the Concorde was, and still is, a technical marvel. The safest commercial aircraft ever. Also the only supersonic aircraft capable of travelling almost 4000 miles without refueling.

http://www.solarnavigator.net/aviation_and_space_travel/aviation_space_images/concorde_last_flight_red_arrows_escort.jpg

[Ankf00]

Lufthansa's Chairman, Wolfgang Mayrhuber: http://konzern.lufthansa.com/en/html/presse/pressemeldungen/index.html?c=nachrichten/app/show/en/2006/12/636/HOM&s=0


“The B747-8 underlines our strategy of graded market-specific services and capacity expansion. It fits perfectly in our intercontinental fleet structure and slots neatly capacity-wise between the A380 with around 550 seats and the A340-600 with around 300 seats.“


Lufthansa also ordered 7 A346's...

[ferrarigod]

Lufthansa also ordered 7 A346's...

That'll save Airbi.


I bet the 747-8 is further from 60s tech then the 380 is.

just wondering about the basis of this comment.

[Ankf00]

That'll save Airbi.

For starters that's a line that hasn't been moving well, so yes it is a good thing. Two, this isn't a strategy shift towards Boeing for Lufthansa rather than it is an attempt at filling an existing gap in their service capabilities. Lufthansa still plans on receiving their order of A380's and has no plans to cancel them. They are focusing on market specific service with such a mixed fleet.

[Gangrel]

Having said that, the Concorde was, and still is, a technical marvel. The safest commercial aircraft ever.

You sure about that? One of them did blow up on take-off. July 5, 2002. 113 dead. I know that it only flew about 80,000 times, but with the small sample size, that could go either way. Last I checked, the Boeing 777 and Airbus 340 are the only two commercial planes out there with clean safety records.

[cameraman]

Last I checked, the Boeing 777 and Airbus 340 are the only two commercial planes out there with clean safety records.

Not for lack of trying:eek: an Air France a340 ran off the end of the runway at Toronto and burned to a crisp. A valiant but thankfully failed attempt to kill 300+ people.

[Gangrel]

Not for lack of trying:eek: an Air France a340 ran off the end of the runway at Toronto and burned to a crisp. A valiant but thankfully failed attempt to kill 300+ people.

So that leaves the 777. :D

[ferrarigod]

No one can say the A380 isn't big:
Large:
http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0989940/L/

[coolhand]

I read somewhere that the turbulence behind the 380 during landing will require planes to take a 10 NM gap behind it. Thus the thing will take up two landing slots. Is this true?