View Full Version : Are you guys watching Grand-Am yet?
FCYTravis
10-21-04, 07:59 PM
Umm, if you think a modified production-car based class will look ANYTHING like GTS cars, you're doing crack. The only things the C5R has in common with the street car are two frame rails.
What you're talking about is more akin to World Challenge GT - but even they are allowed substantial body mods - splitter, air dam, wings, fender flares, etc.
Off topic, but am I the only one who thinks the Carsport America Viper rocks, despite its hopelessly uncompetitive status? :)
As for the rest... well, actually I think it's a rather interesting idea. Escort Endurance Series reborn, anyone?
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 08:28 PM
At this point, I would say scrap the prototypes altogether. All of them. If there isn't a market for true prototypes, then why should we create hideous spec cars and call them prototypes just for the sake of having them? Make the premier class for production based cars - and no, no Group C cars with license plates like the Toyota GT1, I mean production cars. Leave the door open for everyone, but this is not a place for one off/purpose built racers. Nothing goes on the exterior of the car (wings/air dams) that you can't get from your local dealer. Engines can be heavily modified, but it must start from the block that the street version comes with. You can run a turbo, but only if you can buy the street version with a turbo. This doesn't mean slow cars - remember what Electromotive was doing with 300ZX engines not so long ago in GTP. So you've got cars that look more or less like GTS cars, but with insanely powerful engines. I think the body flares on the current Trans Am cars are a bit excessive and distract from the original shape of the car - I'm thinking more silhouette cars, templates and all.
What I'm shooting for are lightening fast cars that are difficult to drive. Manufacturers like it because of the brand recognition, and privateers can buy the same basic platform as the factory teams, ideally even run pretty much the same car, much in the way that the 956/962 developed. The bottom line is, if the factories pull out - or even if they don't get involved at all, you can still go buy the basic car and develop it on your own.
What you described sounds alot like World Challenge GT, and those cars are much slower than the DPs.
oddlycalm
10-21-04, 08:30 PM
That's your choice. But what you want can't exist right now anymore than what we had during the glory days of CART isn't possible right now. The sooner you realize that what you want is unobtainable, the happier you'll be. Remember, desire is the source of suffering.
Dave, it's like drinking great micro brews and imports all your life then visiting to someplace where all you can buy is mass market beer. Having been faced with this choice more than a few times, I'd rather drink coffee, tea, water, or nothing at all than to suck on a McBeer.
I'm not sure why our society has become obsessed with achieving and mediocrity in all things, but I'm not, and I don't plan on changing my mind time soon. If the only US racing that survives is lowest common denominator garbage targeted at the Walmart crowd , I've got other things to do. One could hardly say I'm suffering as a result however.
One thing that I've noticed about club track days is that a lot of us hardcore racefans are spending much more time on the track driving than at the track watching these days, and a lot of these folks simply gave up paying attention to US racing series as they stopped being worthy of any attention. Speed World Challenge is about the only US series left that connects with this crowd. Many of the guys that are running their $60-$150,000 cars at track events and club races are the same executives, professionals and small business owners that used to show up with a motorhome or hospitality tent and a group of friends for the CART, Trans Am and IMSA events and would fly off to see numerous races out of town every season. They are still spending that money, just not on the kind of McRacing Lite that exist today.
oc
ps: the fooboy likes soccer ;)
werd, and only a *little* bit more than I love that Robin Williams skit about how a drunk scot invented golf :D
Steve99
10-21-04, 10:38 PM
What you described sounds alot like World Challenge GT, and those cars are much slower than the DPs.
World Challenge is extremely regulated, and I don't think that is what Michaelhatesfans had in mind. Note the part about high HP engines.
As for me, if I have to choose between watching Grand Am and watching nothing, I'll choose nothing. I've got better things to do with my time.
RaceGrrl
10-21-04, 11:18 PM
werd, and only a *little* bit more than I love that Robin Williams skit about how a drunk scot invented golf :D
Meant to comment on that earlier today. That skit about golf was one of his most inspired bits, IMO.
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 11:30 PM
The tires that SPEED World Challenge use:
http://www.toyo.com/tires/tire_lines/popups/jpgs/ra1.jpg
They'd definitely be faster on full race rubber, thats no doubt.
FCYTravis
10-21-04, 11:51 PM
On the contrary, World Challenge GT allows extensive engine modifications. Some cars are turning laptimes that are nearly good enough to get on an ALMS GT grid - and they're running DOT-R rubber!
WCGT may be highly regulated, but that doesn't mean they aren't quick as stink.
Wolf Henzler in a Porsche 911 Cup qualified on WCGT pole at 1:31.469 and change- just TWO SECONDS slower than the slowest ALMS GT Porsche 911 GT3RS on qualifying gumball slicks.
Put slicks on WCGT and those cars would be running right with the ALMS GT boys.
Oh, and if you ever took the restrictor plates off the Audi RS6s and cranked the boost back up... stand back. Stand WAY THE **** BACK.
Don't forget the Viper Competition Coupe. It's a' TURNKEY racecar that now makes up about a third of the WCGT grid. All that's holding it down is the (comparatively) skinny and hard DOT rubber. Give it some real slicks...
The only thing keeping these cars out of a series like ALMS are the ACO's asinine rule sets. Make the Viper an ALMS-legal car and watch grids shoot skyward.
:shakehead Stupid rulemakers.
Don't forget the Viper Competition Coupe. It's a' TURNKEY racecar that now makes up about a third of the WCGT grid. All that's holding it down is the (comparatively) skinny and hard DOT rubber. Give it some real slicks...
The only thing keeping these cars out of a series like ALMS are the ACO's asinine rule sets. Make the Viper an ALMS-legal car and watch grids shoot skyward.
:shakehead Stupid rulemakers.
Exactly what Grand-Am did to SGS. ;) They let them run the Rolex series, from Grand-Am cup, a few years ago to increase grid size.....Maybe, ALMS can learn something from Grand-Am? :laugh:
The competition coupe by the way is a great race car for the price. Brilliant!
FCYTravis
10-22-04, 01:17 AM
Except for the fact that SGS is only a grid-filler until they get enough DPs... then it dies, folded into GT.
Don't quite know how they're going to mix SGS cars, old GT cars and these new "back to the future" silhouette tube-clip GT cars.
pedroskova
10-22-04, 07:29 AM
Maybe I was hallucinating, but I could swear that I watched Boris Said, in a Mustang GT, walk away from the Grand Sham prototypes last year(?), before breaking toward the end of the race. Wouldn't see that in ALMS.
ps: the fooboy likes soccer ;)
he had a skit about soccer players in there too :)
Skater_36
10-22-04, 08:38 AM
Well, Tony thinks that Champcar's existance is the only thing keeping the IRL from being like CART in the 80s and 90s, and that ain't true either.
That being said, I don't see your point about other's comments, Sean. I think they were asked their opinion of GA and they gave it. And its their opinions. But then a few others kept saying 'but' to them.
Its been 4 forum pages of he said/she said. I think we've done it to death, no?
Steve
Couldn't agree more!
BTW, I think this thread had more spectator interest than a typical Grand Am race.
Sean O'Gorman
10-22-04, 10:00 AM
BTW, I think this thread had more spectator interest than a typical Grand Am race.
...as well as more participants than a typical ALMS race.
In answer to the previous question about what would be the right formula to US road racing, FCY is right that a big part of the problem is that Panoz has tied himself too closely to Le Mans rules.
I would penalize prototypes that aren't available to the public at a set cost with weight or restrictors. I would add another set of rules for prototypes that would be more affordable but still legitimate prototypes. You can make a lot of speed with a plain old American V8 if the rules permit it.
Skater_36
10-22-04, 11:41 AM
...as well as more participants than a typical ALMS race.
In other words "nah nah nah nah nah"?
Look, you may like Grand Am, others don't, for a number of reasons. For those that prefer Grand Am, by all means go and enjoy while the rest of us may choose to pass on that series.
As someone said earlier, this thread has been done to death.
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