View Full Version : Are you guys watching Grand-Am yet?
I ask because the last race of the season is at California speedway at the end of the month.
Grand-Am in my opinion is the best road racing around at the higher level, out side of Germany (DTM). The racing between Angellelli, Wallace, Theys, etc is very close. There are 5-6 cars that could win the race each weekend. The DP's are a lot better then what they were when they first came out. The TV package is excelent, the manufactures involment is great and the drivers are tops as well. For me this series has taken over the void left by CART of 3-4 years ago. Next year Honda, Nissan, Mazda and Dodge will get involved as well. Wait till the road racers stuck in the IRL start getting hired to do some real racing....... :thumbup:
No. Just seeing those fendered crapwagons on SpeedNews makes me want to gouge out my mind's eye with imaginary knitting needles to get their hideous image out of my brain.
Methanolandbrats
10-20-04, 12:00 AM
Having seen CanAm, IMSA GTP and the real Rolex in person, I'd rather put fire ants on my nuts than watch Grand Am.
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 12:05 AM
I've been following it alot closer since Mid-Ohio, but I missed Barber.
Grand-Am Cup is a great series to watch too.
If some of you guys would look at it for the racing action, and not just as an evil ISC entity with ugly cars, you'd really enjoy it.
If some of you guys would look at it for the racing action, and not just as an evil ISC entity with ugly cars, you'd really enjoy it.
How do you look at it without seeing the ugly cars?
RaceGrrl
10-20-04, 12:26 AM
SeanO, you've got to be F-ing kidding me. :rolleyes:
The only thing uglier than a crapwagon is a GrandAm car. I don't watch BS "racing."
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 12:33 AM
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=car+shows
Perhaps this would be more up your alley, as clearly the driving portion of motorsports isn't a very high priority.
"BS" racing? Come on, its not like Grand-Am races are foot to the floor draft fests like the crapwagons, this is hard racing. I've mentioned here before I have a friend who has done some ALMS events this year, and he told me recently he is very interested in the Daytona Prototypes because of the deeper competition. Every SCCA and NASA racer I know from other forums also love the Grand-Am series, and think the DPs are cool cars.
But surely you guys are better judges of real racing than anyone I just named.
RaceGrrl
10-20-04, 12:41 AM
We've been watching racing longer than you've been alive. By your standards, the Renault Cup would have been the greatest series ever. Close racing and lots of fugly cars. No thanks. :gomer:
RacinM3
10-20-04, 12:42 AM
While I'm no huge fan of Grand Am, the road racing is real. I don't know that watching racing qualifies you to judge the effort the crews and drivers put into it, and determine whether it's "real" or not. It does, however, qualify anyone to judge that the Earl is not real racing, however. I mean, it's just obvious. :p
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 12:50 AM
While I'm no huge fan of Grand Am, the road racing is real. I don't know that watching racing qualifies you to judge the effort the crews and drivers put into it, and determine whether it's "real" or not. It does, however, qualify anyone to judge that the Earl is not real racing, however. I mean, it's just obvious. :p
Thank you, Scott. I'd imagine you are the most qualified person here to make a judgement about Grand-Am. I doubt you'd be able to find a way to get a DP to go around VIR or Homestead flat out, so I don't see how the racing could be concieved as "fake." ;)
You'll never hear me say that Grand-Am is what sports car racing should be. However, in reality, it is what the guys who pay to have these cars on the track want to race, so thus they aren't going anyway anytime soon. The beauty of sports car racing is the diversity, you can watch huge Grand-Am fields go at it with 5-6 cars still battling for the lead after 120 laps one week, and then watch the super exotic ALMS cars run for 10 hrs straight the next. And in the end, this race fan is very thankful for that. :thumbup:
I work for a Grand-Am team if you guys didn't already guess, by my resent pro grand-am posts. Not in DP, but in SGS. DP is an acquired taste. They are actually pretty cool when you look at them up close. The Crawford is nice!
Look, IMSA GTP of 1986 was one of my favorite seasons of all time, but since that was 20 years ago and Drake Olson, Chip Robinson, John Paul jr, Oscar Laurrari and Witney Ganz are who the f*** knows where, it's time to put down the old On-Tracks and move on with our lives. If you guys like Road Racing and can't stand IRL, Earl, or whatever or NasCab, then what are you going to do? Watch the Audi 3-hours at Laguna Seca or figure out how much fuel Jenson Button has while in the lead at Monza? Grand-Am is where it's at. Swallow your pride, and check it out, you might even like it! :cool:
Winston Wolfe
10-20-04, 01:20 AM
Fio, I am with you on the "old school" portion of the post, and yeah, time has passed us all by. I used to work for Nissan Motor Corp back in the IMSA GTP days with Chip Robinson EFR and the fellas were kicking ass, and then Steve Millen was tearing up his class with the 300ZX.... so I hear ya....
Its just that it is an ISC deal, and they are evil.... the cars are not anything like we had in the past, and it takes some getting used to.... These cars are able to take some abuse on the track, and the drivers and the teams at the top are pretty damn good.... I enjoy watching the races, but its kinda like having a lap dance with a 35 year old chick, who is a few lbs overweight with a bad hair weave.... YEAH, on one hand you are getting a lap dance, but you'd rather be getting it from the 22 year old skank with the "real" fake boobies and the natural blonde hair..... know what I mean ? :confused:
I'll be out at Fontucky for the Grand Am in a few weeks. There will be NO ONE there in the grandstands, but my friend INSISTS on bringing the motor home out there for each and every event since he paid for the space for the entire year, and he does have a pretty nice 46 ft Travel Supreme with two pullouts, a satellite TV and a huge cooler \ reefer unit under the storage compartments....
While I'm no huge fan of Grand Am, the road racing is real. I don't know that watching racing qualifies you to judge the effort the crews and drivers put into it, and determine whether it's "real" or not. It does, however, qualify anyone to judge that the Earl is not real racing, however. I mean, it's just obvious. :p
I'm sure the crews and drivers work very hard. It must be very hard to keep your lunch down while working on one of those ugly beasts.
There is more good racing out there than I have time to watch anyway, I don't need to watch ugly cars in a series run according to NASCAR's idea of "competition". It's not prototype racing, it's Trans Am or GTO from the '80s with uglier bodywork than anything I've seen in racing.
The only way they could do worse would be to run a Pontiac Aztec Cup. I'll bet that'd be close racing, too.
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 01:31 AM
:shrugs:
You are entitled to your own opinion, I'm not going to fight that any further, but you are cheating yourself out of some very good racing. You should check it out at Mid-Ohio next year, I'll even provide the tickets for both of you. :)
chop456
10-20-04, 01:41 AM
The upper classes are hideous, the championship is irrelavent, and the whole series is nothing more than another power play by those who refuse to leave well enough alone. They gutted what used to be the most important sports car race in the U.S. Sound familiar?
When the NFL season ends, I don't start watching Arena football because it's the "next best thing".
I vote with my dollars and my eyes, and I vote "no". :thumdown:
FCYTravis
10-20-04, 03:48 AM
The problem with sports car racing is that neither side is particularly palatable at the moment.
Yes, I dearly adore ALMS (having just flagged them for four hours at Laguna Seca) but there is no denying there's major problems in the House of Panoz - after the green flag drops the only mystery is who's going to be driving the Audi under the checkers, JJ or Marco... and with Lambo and Prodrive and Panoz gone the fields are thinner than spit on a sidewalk. OK, so Dyson puts up a fight sometimes but it's never long before those MG Lucas electrics go from "dim" to "flicker" to "off" :cry:
Grand-Am, on the other hand has great racing, until you lose your lunch watching the hideously ugly prototurds (Crawford excepted) use GT and SGS cars (hi Fio!) as bumper testers, punting an average of 10 per race straight off into the tire barriers, which of course creates lots of contrived and lengthy full-course-yellows.
It sucks being a sports-car racing fan. The World Challenge and Grand-Am Cup support series are more interesting than the "headliners" these days.
Skater_36
10-20-04, 08:46 AM
Fio, I am with you on the "old school" portion of the post, and yeah, time has passed us all by. I used to work for Nissan Motor Corp back in the IMSA GTP days with Chip Robinson EFR and the fellas were kicking ass, and then Steve Millen was tearing up his class with the 300ZX.... so I hear ya....
Its just that it is an ISC deal, and they are evil.... the cars are not anything like we had in the past, and it takes some getting used to.... These cars are able to take some abuse on the track, and the drivers and the teams at the top are pretty damn good.... I enjoy watching the races, but its kinda like having a lap dance with a 35 year old chick, who is a few lbs overweight with a bad hair weave.... YEAH, on one hand you are getting a lap dance, but you'd rather be getting it from the 22 year old skank with the "real" fake boobies and the natural blonde hair..... know what I mean ? :confused:
.
I'm with most of you regarding the "old school" IMSA etc. Brian Redman in the T 600 or John Paul Jr. driving 935's or the turbo Buick were great fun to watch.
The analogy about ISC/Grand AM is right on the mark. :thumbup:
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 10:25 AM
Are you guys watching Grand-Am yet?
No. Tomorrow doesn't look good either.
Its just that it is an ISC deal, and they are evil.... the cars are not anything like we had in the past, and it takes some getting used to.... These cars are able to take some abuse on the track, and the drivers and the teams at the top are pretty damn good.... I enjoy watching the races, but its kinda like having a lap dance with a 35 year old chick, who is a few lbs overweight with a bad hair weave.... YEAH, on one hand you are getting a lap dance, but you'd rather be getting it from the 22 year old skank with the "real" fake boobies and the natural blonde hair..... know what I mean ? :confused:
.
:laugh: Ohh, that's so right! :thumbup:
The Doctor
10-20-04, 10:44 AM
Rather watch four year olds on tricycles than Grand-Am.
Or Vespa races.
I'll take SWC. Thanks for the poor advice, though. France-Sham sucks.
RacinM3
10-20-04, 10:44 AM
It must be very hard to keep your lunch down while working on one of those ugly beasts.
That's fine and I also agree that the "prototypes" are a joke when we all know what a "real" prototype is. Maybe that's what RaceGrrl was talking about. But while the DP's are questionable, when on-track they are going at it, the cars are not easy to drive, and they're racing. Also, there are other classes with undoubtedly "real" race cars to watch.
Like Sean said, is Grand Am what sports-car racing should be? No.
If I had my way, I'd wipe Grand Am (because of the ISC ownership) off the face of the earth, throw the DP's into a volcano, and send all the teams to stregthen ALMS. Unfortunately, I don't seem to be getting my way.
I'm sure the feeling that NASCAR/ISC is diluting road racing in this country is more your issue than the "ugly" cars. It's mine, too.
When I watch sports, I like to watch the best of the best. When I watch motor racing, I like to see the best of the best competing with beautifully prepared, built-for-going-fast-and-not-for-cost-containment equipment.
That's why I watch F1 & MotoGP religiously. I won't even turn on the Tivo'ed MotoGP race until my daughter has been put to bed so that I can absorb and savor every moment.
There is great racing all around that I'm not really interested in, but it's not just about the racing, it's about watching the best compete at the highest level in cars that interest me. I'll watch it if it's on and I'm bored, but I won't be a ticket-buyer or t-shirt wearer.
Grand Am? No thanks.
racer2c
10-20-04, 01:11 PM
To each their own, but for myself, if I was going to watch Grand Am, I'd probably just say F it to the whole thing and buy a DE jr. hat and watch NASCAR, which will never, ever happen. As for racers liking Grand Am...I'd like it too if I was getting a paid ride. Racers are the last people I ask about what series they like.
F1
Champ Car
MotoGP
WSB
AMA
Nope, no Grand Am on my list.
RacinM3
10-20-04, 01:16 PM
BTW, what was wrong with the Renault cup? I used to watch those guys at Riverside when I was a kid! Nothing like seeing a driver roll a LeCar! :gomer:
1. Open up those cockpits
2. Stick with the cheap engines, but give them some real horsepower.
Then I would feel more comfortable watching it, since it would be a complement to ALMS prototype classes, in much of the same way that Can-Am was to the old Sportscar championship in the late 60's and early 70's.
Keep it there just to compete and try to destroy ALMS, no thanks.
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 02:27 PM
BTW, what was wrong with the Renault cup? I used to watch those guys at Riverside when I was a kid! Nothing like seeing a driver roll a LeCar! :gomer:
I think that was the first place I ever saw the Archer brothers, if memory serves. Crazy stuff!
I work for a Grand-Am team if you guys didn't already guess, by my resent pro grand-am posts. Not in DP, but in SGS. DP is an acquired taste. They are actually pretty cool when you look at them up close. The Crawford is nice!:
Oh yeah, she's a beaut. :saywhat:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/2004/Mid-Ohio-2004-08-08-0009.jpg
That one may be ugly nrc but, this one is Fugly.
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/2003/Virginia-2003-10-05-008.jpg
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 02:52 PM
The difference is, that second car is ugly and slow. I don't think anyone likes the Picchio. :laugh:
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 02:54 PM
http://www.gscdownloads.com/Barber04/005sg.jpg
I don't think this one is that bad.
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 03:19 PM
http://www.gscdownloads.com/Barber04/005sg.jpg
I don't think this one is that bad.
Ahh... I think I see the problem, Sean...
www.1800contacts.com
:p
RaceGrrl
10-20-04, 04:03 PM
http://john-morton-racing.us/images/Jag_1987.jpg
The difference is, that second car is ugly and slow. I don't think anyone likes the Picchio. :laugh:
They're all ugly and slow.
All times for MidOhio's 2.25 mile configuration:
Champ Car 1:07.058 (121.220 mph) Paul Tracy 2003
ALMS LMP1 1:12.123 (112.707 mph) James Weaver 2004
Indy Lights 1:13.809 (110.133 mph) Townsend Bell 2001
Toyota Atlantic 1:15.668 (107.427 mph) AJ Almendinger 2003
ALMS LMP2 1:17.246 (105.233 mph) Buckman 2004
ALMS GTS 1:18.622 (103.391 mph) Gavin/Beretta 2004
Daytona Prototype Mid Ohio: 1:19.496 (102.254 mph) Pruett/Papis 2004
Trans Am: 1:24.835 ( 95.819 mph) Gentilozzi 2001
Also worth noting:
In 1988 the Nissan GTP car turned in a pole time at MidOhio of 1:19.955 - for the 2.4 mile configuration. In 1993 the Toyota GTPs turned 1:11s, but I don't know what track configuration they ran.
oddlycalm
10-20-04, 04:11 PM
You don't have to live in the past to see epic road racing. RichK is right on the money. MotoGP has today what other series have had in the past; insanely overpowered machines, pilots as great as any to ever ride, and passing that will stop your heart. Anyone that saw the first lap and final lap from last weekends MotoGP race from Phillip Island, Victoria knows what I'm talking about. Three passes for the lead on the final lap between the #1 and #2 rider with the world championship on the line.... :thumbup: You want to talk excitement? Watch these guys grab a handful of brake at 200+mph then slide the bike through the turn with reverse lock while dicing with other riders, then lay down rubber out of the corner... :cool:
Add to that that it's the only top level international series where US riders have not only won world championships, but actually dominated and become legendary figures. Kenny Roberts and Freddy Spencer may not be household names in the US, but they won multiple world championships and are racing legends in the rest of the world. Schumacher may dominate F1 but he does it with a superior team and superior iron. Valentino Rossi just won the world championship on what everyone agrees is underdog iron and a team with no recent history of success.
Speed World Challenge works for me and I never miss watching a race. I have less interest in ALMS, but I watch it. I won't watch G-A Cup due the France/ISC connection. It's a free country and they can form any series they want to, but you'll never find me supporting it in any way.
oc
It's pretty amazing, but I've never been a two wheel fan. I've been watching the air races...
http://www.wrc.com/ULImages/Photos/martin-lord-36-big-webok.gif
For all of the critiques of Grand-Am, one thing cannot be disputed-they put cars on the track. ALMS does not. ALMS has the Audis and whatever uncompetitive LMPs they can get.
I don't believe Grand-Am cars that pretty and I'd prefer that the engine rules were opened up a little, but the fact that they can 17 of them in a variety of engine/chassis combos to show up for races is hard to criticize. I'm sorry to say that ALMS is a too expensive formula for amount of money prototype racing can demand right now.
I wish the IMSA GTP's could make a comeback to. But I'm also willing to live in reality.
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 06:45 PM
For all of the critiques of Grand-Am, one thing cannot be disputed-they put cars on the track. ALMS does not. ALMS has the Audis and whatever uncompetitive LMPs they can get.
I don't believe Grand-Am cars that pretty and I'd prefer that the engine rules were opened up a little, but the fact that they can 17 of them in a variety of engine/chassis combos to show up for races is hard to criticize. I'm sorry to say that ALMS is a too expensive formula for amount of money prototype racing can demand right now.
I wish the IMSA GTP's could make a comeback to. But I'm also willing to live in reality.
That is the key point here. All these people that complain about Grand-Am being fake racing, and wanting the days of 40 car GTP fields with sponsors abound are being very unrealistic. Big $$$ sports car racing has been in a slump for 12 years now.
Criticize Grand-Am/ISC all you want for "ruining" sports car racing, but the bottom line is, the competitors are what decided this. Grand-Am is designed with the privateer in mind, ALMS is designed with...well, who quite knows what ALMS is supposed to appeal to? It is nothing like the CART/IRL feud, nobody from Grand-Am is trying to "buy" competitors, they move on their own. I doubt even a quarter of the current DP teams would be in ALMS right now if there was no such thing as Grand-Am.
I've been told that a "competitive" Daytona Prototype ride goes for $50,000 a weekend, and that is the cost for both drivers combined. Add that up for an entire season and it probably doesn't even add up to the total cost of a Lola-MG that isn't really that competitive. I know if I was a privateer on a limited budget running out of my own pocket, and I wanted to race a prototype, I'd choose the DP. Clearly the majority of the privateers out there agree with me.
When I watch sports, I like to watch the best of the best. When I watch motor racing, I like to see the best of the best competing with beautifully prepared, built-for-going-fast-and-not-for-cost-containment equipment.
I view things a bit different. When I want to watch the best of the best, I want to see the driver be the prime part of the equation. I want to see races won by the driver who pushed the hardest, not the one who had the only Audi.
I also find it interesting that your evaluation of what you like in racing would seem to make Champ Car seem unappealing to you.
I also find it interesting that your evaluation of what you like in racing would seem to make Champ Car seem unappealing to you.
It is unappealing to me in its current form, which is why I left it out.
Regarding the first part of your post: just because 40 GTPs aren't thundering down the front stretch at Daytona doesn't mean I have to settle for cars slower than Toyota Atlantics as a replacement.
By the way, I'm not an ALMS supporter by any means.
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 07:00 PM
....the bottom line is, the competitors are what decided this. Grand-Am is designed with the privateer in mind.
Give me a series where things are designed with the fans in mind. Especially me. These guys never ask me. :laugh:
Am I going to sit around and wait for the IMSA GTP era (sigh) to come back? Nah. But I'd rather go to vintage races and see real prototypes than attend a Grand Am event.
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 07:20 PM
Give me a series where things are designed with the fans in mind. Especially me. These guys never ask me. :laugh:
When was the last time anyone in the professional road racing community ever genuinely had an interest in what the fans thought? Besides, there aren't enough of us to make a difference anyway. :mad:
Rogue Leader
10-20-04, 07:56 PM
I hate to say it but the days of cost is no object racing abounding are over. GTP was great while it lasted, till Toyota showed up and bitch slapped everyone, and everyone realized the cost to play wasnt worth the return. In the end there were what 5 GTP teams left?? Look at F1, they actually used to have people not even qualify! Now, everyones in, 22 cars! It just isnt gonna happen.
I do agree that DP's are pretty damn ugly with their way too wide cockpits, I also dislike the fact that its ISC controlled. But unfortunately to go run any other series (ALMS) you have to dump a TON OF MONEY to consider being competitive. The return on investment is practically nill. Sponsors are fewer and further apart these days, it just doesnt happen anymore. So Grand Am is a series with this in mind. Its WAY cheaper to run a DP, and while yeah they are slower than previous cars, at least theres planty of them giving everyone a chance to compete. It gives the fans a chance to see a lot of on track action, it gives talented drivers who wouldnt otherwise have a chance at a decent ride, a chance.
I have some friends that run Grand Am in various capacities, and they highly enjoy the cost effectiveness and the competition. And I enjoy watching it on TV, theres action, theres passing, theres strategy, if the DPs werent so ugly it would be even better!
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 07:57 PM
When was the last time anyone in the professional road racing community ever genuinely had an interest in what the fans thought? Besides, there aren't enough of us to make a difference anyway. :mad:
I actually started down that road in the thread that you quoted, but got a bit long winded and decided against it. :cool:
DjDrOmusic
10-20-04, 08:02 PM
I don't watch the Grand Sham, simply because that is exactly what it is, a sham! As for the link to Car Shows, I perform at more than 40 car shows a year and I have never seen a car as hideous as those in the Grand Sham, plus most of the show cars are built with love, skill and a lot of hard earned money, straight out of the owners pocket. :flame:
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 08:22 PM
I actually started down that road in the thread that you quoted, but got a bit long winded and decided against it. :cool:
That's ok, I understand completely. http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emcocktl.gif
:D
I don't watch the Grand Sham, simply because that is exactly what it is, a sham! As for the link to Car Shows, I perform at more than 40 car shows a year and I have never seen a car as hideous as those in the Grand Sham, plus most of the show cars are built with love, skill and a lot of hard earned money, straight out of the owners pocket. :flame:
Wow, I don't know how I'll ever be able to write a rebuttal to such a persuasive, factual post. :rolleyes: What are Daytona Prototypes made out of, hate, ignorance, and stolen money? Give me a break.
Wow, I don't know how I'll ever be able to write a rebuttal to such a persuasive, factual post. :rolleyes: What are Daytona Prototypes made out of, hate, ignorance, and stolen money? Give me a break.
In Chip Ganassi's case I'd say hate, greed and blood money.
Your position seems to be that road racing is in such dire straits that Grand Am is the best we can hope for and therefore we should support it. It's the same as saying that if Champ car went under we would have to accept what we can get and watch the IRL.
No. That's not the way it works for me. There is plenty of racing out there and not much time. If US sports car racing isn't providing me with a product that I like then I'm not going to say, "Oh well, this is the best I can hope for." and watch anyway. I'm going to take my time, interest and money elsewhere.
racer2c
10-20-04, 09:22 PM
Woah, I have to sit down. This is getting wierd and reminds me of something I can't quite put my finger on. ;)
Your favorite sports car driver SUCKS! :)
Methanolandbrats
10-20-04, 09:27 PM
The backup races at my local 1/4 mile oval put cars on the track and are cost effective too. BFD. If the IRL grids 30 cars at Watkins Glen will that make it a good racing series? Compared to what we had, it's all *****. Whether one chooses to watch ***** is a matter of taste.
Michaelhatesfans
10-20-04, 10:01 PM
http://images.honda-tech.com/set1/smile/emcocktl.gif
Yeah, yeah...
;)
Rogue Leader
10-20-04, 10:08 PM
The backup races at my local 1/4 mile oval put cars on the track and are cost effective too. BFD. If the IRL grids 30 cars at Watkins Glen will that make it a good racing series? Compared to what we had, it's all *****. Whether one chooses to watch ***** is a matter of taste.
30 IRL cars suck, because they arent designed for road courses, their drivers suck, etc.
40 Grand Am Cars, with good road racers, racing wheel to wheel, with interesting strategies, plenty of manufacturer involvement, decent passicng, non contrived finishes, etc, IMO is pretty damn good.
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 10:14 PM
Your position seems to be that road racing is in such dire straits that Grand Am is the best we can hope for and therefore we should support it. It's the same as saying that if Champ car went under we would have to accept what we can get and watch the IRL.
No. That's not the way it works for me. There is plenty of racing out there and not much time. If US sports car racing isn't providing me with a product that I like then I'm not going to say, "Oh well, this is the best I can hope for." and watch anyway. I'm going to take my time, interest and money elsewhere.
No, my position is that just because Grand-Am isn't at some unattainable level of technical depth, diversity, and aesthetically pleasing cars doesn't mean it is an illegitimate series. I said many posts ago that I'm not going to try and push anyone to have to like the series, but I'm not going to let the series get bashed for what I think are dumb reasons. Not being interested in the racing is a perfectly acceptable position, saying that there's no point in this series being around is not.
It isn't like the IRL scenario you listed at all, because the IRL isn't really a legitimate series to begin with. ;)
Sean O'Gorman
10-20-04, 10:29 PM
Oh yeah, some things to consider:
-The first WSCs were hideous looking and slow. These are the first two I remember seeing:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Mid-Ohio-1993-06-13-025.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Mid-Ohio-1993-06-13-048.jpg (RacinM3, you might not want to click this one).
I was 10 at the time and I remember after learning that they were replacing the GTPs, I almost wanted to cry. They eventually evolved into today's gorgeous LMP1s, so anything can happen.
Lap times:
-1994 Watkins Glen WSC pole: 1:43.486 (Ferrari 333SP)
-2004 Watkins Glen DP pole: 1:43.602 (Riley/Pontiac)
Surely the Ferrari 333SP isn't a piece of junk, is it?
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Mid-Ohio-1993-06-13-048.jpg (RacinM3, you might not want to click this one).
Holy crap!!! :eek: What an ugly pile of junk. I believe that doorhandle came straight off an AMC Gremlin.
Rogue Leader
10-20-04, 10:50 PM
Holy crap!!! :eek: What an ugly pile of junk. I believe that doorhandle came straight off an AMC Gremlin.
That car used to be a Lotus Esprit.... while it looks like hell hacked up like that, it wasnt a bad starting platform....
racer2c
10-20-04, 10:55 PM
No, my position is that just because Grand-Am isn't at some unattainable level of technical depth, diversity, and aesthetically pleasing cars doesn't mean it is an illegitimate series. I said many posts ago that I'm not going to try and push anyone to have to like the series, but I'm not going to let the series get bashed for what I think are dumb reasons. Not being interested in the racing is a perfectly acceptable position, saying that there's no point in this series being around is not.
It isn't like the IRL scenario you listed at all, because the IRL isn't really a legitimate series to begin with. ;)
I'd be willing to bet that the owners and drivers of those Mercedes tractor rigs think it's as legitimate a series as any other. Doesn't mean I have to.
Contrived, dumbed down racing aside, I have never and will never understand ugly race cars. As miserable has the IRL aero package is, if the cars looked great it would be harder to hate. Same with Grand Am. I think they they do it on purpose as a cruel joke. "Let's make a really ugly car and see who will watch."
Rogue Leader
10-20-04, 10:57 PM
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Road_America-1993-07-11-018.jpg
now THAT is an ugly race car (early WSC)
30 IRL cars suck, because they arent designed for road courses, their drivers suck, etc.
40 Grand Am Cars, with good road racers, racing wheel to wheel, with interesting strategies, plenty of manufacturer involvement, decent passicng, non contrived finishes, etc, IMO is pretty damn good.
Slow, crappy race cars create more wheel 2 wheel eggcitement. It's a tried and true formula. I wouldn't be surprised if crapwagons end up with more passing on road courses. Crap cars create mistakes and mistakes create passing opportunities.
It baffles me that anyone can criticize crapwagons and tout Grand Am. Have you guys read the Daytona Prototype rules? They share virtually every aspect that makes crapwagons so crappy and top it off by banning carbon fibre construction in favor of aluminum honeycomb and tube frame. They're road racing crapwagons with fenders.
Attenuator - Each transaxle must be fitted with the Riley Technologies rear transaxle attenuator mounted per the manufacturer's specifications. Contact - Mike Croake at Riley Technologies, 1200 North Main St., Speedway IN 46224
Oh yeah, some things to consider:
-1994 Watkins Glen WSC pole: 1:43.486 (Ferrari 333SP)
-2004 Watkins Glen DP pole: 1:43.602 (Riley/Pontiac)
Surely the Ferrari 333SP isn't a piece of junk, is it?
All of the WSCs were slow and most of them were ugly. The Ferrari was an exception in that regard. The WSCs were slow because the formula was intended to slow them. They were tightly restricted on dimensions but not nearly as restricted on design, constuction and components as the Grand Am DP. IMSA fans were obviously thrilled with the new slow and ugly formula and voted 'no' with their wallets (myself included).
IMSA fans were obviously thrilled with the new slow and ugly formula and voted 'no' with their wallets (myself included).
But that was after the mfgs voted "no" with their checkbooks and there was no GTP class to speak of anymore outside of the Toyotas.
Right now team owners are doing the voting. There are 2 premier endurance races in America: Daytona and Sebring. If you had some money to blow and wanted to win one of the two races, which race run by which sanctioning body affords you the best opportunity right now?
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 12:21 AM
There are 2 premier endurance races in America: Daytona and Sebring. If you had some money to blow and wanted to win one of the two races, which race run by which sanctioning body affords you the best opportunity right now?
If I were a manufacturer, I'd run in the series where people didn't half expect a GT-3 Porsche to humiliate the "prototypes." Unless I was selling GT-3 Porsches, of course. :cool:
If I were a manufacturer, I'd run in the series where people didn't half expect a GT-3 Porsche to humiliate the "prototypes." Unless I was selling GT-3 Porsches, of course. :cool:
I didn't ask if you were a manufacturer. If you wanted to win the prototype class as an owner at either of the 2 big endurance races, which series gives the best opportunity?
Oh, and a GT class Nissan beat the WSC's when that class was brand new at Daytona too.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 12:40 AM
I didn't ask if you were a manufacturer. If you wanted to win the prototype class as an owner at either of the 2 big endurance races, which series gives the best opportunity?
I'd run at the US race in which I could use the same car for Le Mans.
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 12:42 AM
Slow, crappy race cars create more wheel 2 wheel eggcitement. It's a tried and true formula.
Not necessarily. I remember seeing some great ALMS races the first season, and the LMP1s are no slouches. The difference is, there were 20+ prototypes at every race back in '99 instead of the 4 that have shown up this year.
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 12:42 AM
I'd run at the US race in which I could use the same car for Le Mans.
How much money do you have? Do you know you don't stand a chance at winning Le Mans?
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 12:47 AM
How much money do you have? Do you know you don't stand a chance at winning Le Mans?
I'm rollllllllllin' in it. :p
Seriously, I wouldn't run in a series that didn't interest me. That, and no one knows or cares about the 24 Hours of Daytona anymore. And if tradition continues, Toyota will probably price everyone out of Grand Am within a year or two anyway. Rule restrictions be damned - a big enough budget will squash the privateers almost every time.
I'd run at the US race in which I could use the same car for Le Mans.
Again, not the question. And you'd picking the race that you stand no chance in hell of winning because the one car that is head and shoulders above the rest ain't for sale. And when you go to Le Mans (if you're invited) you'll stand an even lesser chance of winning, if that's possible. If you want to spend hords of money to be uncompetitive because you can't get the one superior car, knock yourself out. If I owned a team and was in it win races I'd run the race that affords me the very realistic chance if I put together a professional enough program.
Let's talk real world dollars and cents, and not pie in the sky fantasy racing.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 12:58 AM
Again, not the question. And you'd picking the race that you stand no chance in hell of winning because the one car that is head and shoulders above the rest ain't for sale. And when you go to Le Mans (if you're invited) you'll stand an even lesser chance of winning, if that's possible. If you want to spend hords of money to be uncompetitive because you can't get the one superior car, knock yourself out. If I owned a team and was in it win races I'd run the race that affords me the very realistic chance if I put together a professional enough program.
Let's talk real world dollars and cents, and not pie in the sky fantasy racing.
You're right. I wouldn't spend my money on ALMS/Le Mans. I'd start a Champ Car team. Damned near anything but Daytona Prototypes.
You know, I don't see any new manufactures getting into Champcars or ALMS, but I see a good 4 or 5 new ones getting into Grand-Am next year. Why? Because, Grand-Am is doing something right, with the Daytona Prototype. At the end of the day, the soul of racing or whatever actually ended way before the 80's IMSA series and 90's Champcar series, most of you weren't around back then to remember it. I'm sure in 1985, a few guys were arguing about how that season's IMSA season sucked since the 956 showed up....
Personally, I think they should bring big time sportscar racing (prototypes)back to the Nordschleife (Old Nurburgring), that is why I think the VLN series (www.vln.de) is THE sports car series and the 24 of Nurburgring is THE REAL 24 Hour race. Lucas Luhr & Boris Said seem to agree with me... :cool:
chop456
10-21-04, 02:33 AM
You know, I don't see any new manufactures getting into Champcars or ALMS, but I see a good 4 or 5 new ones getting into Grand-Am next year. Why?
Because they don't have the money or guts to start a real program?
I've seen a few minutes of Grand Am on the tube. There is no way that stuff is going to get my motorsports entertainment dollar. If that is the future of road racing, I'm going to get my golf clubs out of the attic.
I've seen a few minutes of Grand Am on the tube. There is no way that stuff is going to get my motorsports entertainment dollar. If that is the future of road racing, I'm going to get my golf clubs out of the attic.
"**** off croquet, we'll make em knock it into a GOPHER HOLE! And right near the end I'll put a little flat piece with a little flag to give you ****ing hope. But then I'll put a little pool and a sand box to **** with your ball again. Ay, you'll be there cracking you ass, jacking away in the sand", "oh and you do this one time?" "**** no. 18 ****ing times."
Oh yeah, some things to consider:
-The first WSCs were hideous looking and slow. These are the first two I remember seeing:
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Mid-Ohio-1993-06-13-025.jpg
http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo/1993/Mid-Ohio-1993-06-13-048.jpg (RacinM3, you might not want to click this one).
I was 10 at the time and I remember after learning that they were replacing the GTPs, I almost wanted to cry. They eventually evolved into today's gorgeous LMP1s, so anything can happen.
Lap times:
-1994 Watkins Glen WSC pole: 1:43.486 (Ferrari 333SP)
-2004 Watkins Glen DP pole: 1:43.602 (Riley/Pontiac)
Surely the Ferrari 333SP isn't a piece of junk, is it?
A decade later the Riley should be significantly faster than the 333SP just from tire development.
BTW, the WSC cars did not 'bloom' into LMP1s. LMP900 and LMP675 were derived from a completely different set of regs that Don Panoz accepted from the organizers of a certain race in France.
"**** off croquet, we'll make em knock it into a GOPHER HOLE! And right near the end I'll put a little flat piece with a little flag to give you ****ing hope. But then I'll put a little pool and a sand box to **** with your ball again. Ay, you'll be there cracking you ass, jacking away in the sand", "oh and you do this one time?" "**** no. 18 ****ing times."
ps: the fooboy likes soccer ;)
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 11:14 AM
A decade later the Riley should be significantly faster than the 333SP just from tire development.
BTW, the WSC cars did not 'bloom' into LMP1s. LMP900 and LMP675 were derived from a completely different set of regs that Don Panoz accepted from the organizers of a certain race in France.
Grand-Am has spec tires, I'd imagine that would stifle any tire development.
I thought the LMP900 regs were just WSCs with diffusers and turbos, and equalized through air restrictors instead of rev limiters?
EDIT: Oh yeah, and the single roll hoop.
DjDrOmusic
10-21-04, 11:19 AM
Gee Sean, you seem to have such a grasp of reality, that I stand corrected. A group of people who re-build cars as a hobby, using money that is their own, instead of sponsor money, really have no right to be defended. I really miss the days of college, when I was the one who was always right. :shakehead
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 11:23 AM
Gee Sean, you seem to have such a grasp of reality, that I stand corrected. A group of people who re-build cars as a hobby, using money that is their own, instead of sponsor money, really have no right to be defended. I really miss the days of college, when I was the one who was always right. :shakehead
Most of the racers in Grand-Am are self-funded as well. That is why they run lower cost cars instead of super expensive LMP1s that have no chance of winning.
You know, I don't see any new manufactures getting into Champcars or ALMS, but I see a good 4 or 5 new ones getting into Grand-Am next year. Why? Because, Grand-Am is doing something right, with the Daytona Prototype.
I think you're overstating the manufacturer involvement. Most of them are just offering crate motors that privateers can use.
RacinM3
10-21-04, 01:29 PM
Sheesh, OK DaveL...I'll answer it.
Daytona.
And you're right.
A private team doesn't have a chance in hell at competing with the LMP's (read: Audis), and if you ask me, the Daytona 24 has retained a lot more of it's luster in the sports car world than the I500 has in the open wheel world.
FCYTravis
10-21-04, 01:29 PM
Ummmm, no, Sean. :gomer: LMP regs are completely different from WSC. I dare you to find a carbon-tubbed WSC. :laugh:
The "dual roll hoop" is also much more than a cosmetic difference... the full-width basket-handle hoop was often used to stiffen the "chop-top" cars and the aluminum-honeycomb monocoque cars.
Then some company by the name of BMW built an LMP out of carbon with a single hoop and broke the mold...
http://www.mulsannescorner.com/BMW-GC1.jpg
The 1999 LMR V12. It exploited a loophole the ACO left open... and every competitive prototype design since has followed its lead.
I still think open-top prototypes look crummy with a full-width hoop. It's no surprise that the Lola B160's hoop looks so much like a Champ Car's...
I think you're overstating the manufacturer involvement. Most of them are just offering crate motors that privateers can use.
What, are you saying they don't want to win? :shakehead
Grand-Am has:
Big Fields
Top Drivers (both up-and-coming & ex F1, Cart, Le Mans pros)
Live TV
Good tracks in US/Canada
Manufacture involvement
and exciting races.
List me another road racing series in the US that has that? If you don't like it because of their association with Nascar is like saying you don't like Paul Tracy because he is Canadian.
jonovision_man
10-21-04, 01:44 PM
What, are you saying they don't want to win? :shakehead
Grand-Am has:
Big Fields
Top Drivers (both up-and-coming & ex F1, Cart, Le Mans pros)
Live TV
Good tracks in US/Canada
Manufacture involvement
and exciting races.
List me another road racing series in the US that has that? If you don't like it because of their association with Nascar is like saying you don't like Paul Tracy because he is Canadian.
Speed world challenge? Except the top drivers. And the live tv. :)
jono
What, are you saying they don't want to win? :shakehead
No, I'm saying that it's easy enough for them to make a minimal effort and let the privateers run with it. They're not involved on anything like the scale that most people think of when someone touts "manufacturer invovlvement".
List me another road racing series in the US that has that? If you don't like it because of their association with Nascar is like saying you don't like Paul Tracy because he is Canadian.
That makes no sense whatsoever. Racing series is to sanctioning body as driver is to nationality? Is Canada seeking to undermine American road racing?
I don't like it becuase they're slow, ugly cars posing as prototypes. I don't like it because they're run by a sanctioning body that really has no interest in road racing outside of controlling it and keeping it in it's place as a diversion for the people they can't suck into their NASCAR franchise.
FCYTravis
10-21-04, 02:00 PM
Actually, World Challenge has some live TV now. :)
devilmaster
10-21-04, 02:12 PM
Is Canada seeking to undermine American road racing?
Shhhh. Now don't worry your little head about that..........
the truth will set you free
jonovision_man
10-21-04, 02:17 PM
Actually, World Challenge has some live TV now. :)
I stand corrected. :)
Fun little series, could be a lot more in the future, very exciting racing.
I don't mind Grand Am, but I have to agree that the prototypes are nasty compared to the ALMS prototypes... it's too bad that the ALMS prototype class is so sparse now that the European series has started. Although Johnny was back. :)
jono
Skater_36
10-21-04, 02:34 PM
No, I'm saying that it's easy enough for them to make a minimal effort and let the privateers run with it. They're not involved on anything like the scale that most people think of when someone touts "manufacturer invovlvement".
I don't like it becuase they're slow, ugly cars posing as prototypes. I don't like it because they're run by a sanctioning body that really has no interest in road racing outside of controlling it and keeping it in it's place as a diversion for the people they can't suck into their NASCAR franchise.
That about sums it up.
Steve99
10-21-04, 02:53 PM
I don't like it becuase they're slow, ugly cars posing as prototypes. I don't like it because they're run by a sanctioning body that really has no interest in road racing outside of controlling it and keeping it in it's place as a diversion for the people they can't suck into their NASCAR franchise.
And don't forget to add that many of the "road courses" they run on are on the infields of ISC/NASCAR ovals. :thumdown:
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 03:19 PM
I don't like it becuase they're slow, ugly cars posing as prototypes. I don't like it because they're run by a sanctioning body that really has no interest in road racing outside of controlling it and keeping it in it's place as a diversion for the people they can't suck into their NASCAR franchise.
How are they undermining road racing? By offering what the competitors want?
You guys act as if Grand-Am's existance is the only thing keeping sports car racing from being like the 80s and early 90s, and that is certainly not the case.
How are they undermining road racing? By offering what the competitors want?
Good point. The competitors clearly want what Grand-Am is offering, hence the large fields that will be larger next year. And the costs are in line with what sponsors are willing to pay. ALMS cannot offer this to either the owners or mfgs. The bottom line is if you want to compete in prototype racing at a reasonable cost with a chance of winning, right now Grand-Am is the choice to make and far more owners, mfgs, and sponsors are making that choice over ALMS.
You guys act as if Grand-Am's existance is the only thing keeping sports car racing from being like the 80s and early 90s, and that is certainly not the case.
Yep.
devilmaster
10-21-04, 03:30 PM
You guys act as if Grand-Am's existance is the only thing keeping sports car racing from being like the 80s and early 90s, and that is certainly not the case.
Well, Tony thinks that Champcar's existance is the only thing keeping the IRL from being like CART in the 80s and 90s, and that ain't true either.
That being said, I don't see your point about other's comments, Sean. I think they were asked their opinion of GA and they gave it. And its their opinions. But then a few others kept saying 'but' to them.
Its been 4 forum pages of he said/she said. I think we've done it to death, no?
Steve
How are they undermining road racing? By offering what the competitors want?
You guys act as if Grand-Am's existance is the only thing keeping sports car racing from being like the 80s and early 90s, and that is certainly not the case.
Nope. You don't see me touting ALMS as the solution either. Panoz made the mistake of hitching his wagon to a formula that doesn't meet the needs of his market and that he has little control over.
You're making all the IRL arguments from the late ninties for road racing. Opportunity for the little GUYZ! Manufacturers! Wheel 2 Wheel EGGZitement. BIG Feeldz of grass roots racing heroZ!
The Frances don't care about any of that stuff.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 04:07 PM
Manufacturer involvement, big name drivers, a big name race, close racing... and no fans. Why does that sound so familiar?
Let's see... questionable motives for starting the series in the first place, no appeal to purists, and no regard for the sport's history. Dang, this is really familiar for some reason...
Manufacturer involvement, big name drivers, a big name race, close racing... and no fans. Why does that sound so familiar?
Some people compare it to the IRL.
I'd say a comparison to Club Racing is more appropriate.
no appeal to purists, and no regard for the sport's history.
The current economics of racing cannot support what purists want and what has been the history of prototype racing. We all wish it would, but that's not the case. We, as purists, can dream all we want about GTPs and absolute track records, but that's all it is-a dream.
Whether you like or don't like it, the competitors and manufacturers have choosen the Grand-Am concept over ALMS.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 05:17 PM
Whether you like or don't like it, the competitors and manufacturers have choosen the Grand-Am concept over ALMS.
Yet it's still lacking something.... Oh yeah, fans. It's a bargain for the teams? Bully for them. But what's in it for me? NASCARized "sports cars"? No thanks. :thumdown:
Yet it's still lacking something.... Oh yeah, fans. It's a bargain for the teams? Bully for them. But what's in it for me? NASCARized "sports cars"? No thanks. :thumdown:
That's your choice. But what you want can't exist right now anymore than what we had during the glory days of CART isn't possible right now. The sooner you realize that what you want is unobtainable, the happier you'll be. Remember, desire is the source of suffering.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 05:39 PM
The sooner you realize that what you want is unobtainable, the happier you'll be. Remember, desire is the source of suffering.
Who said I was unhappy??? I just think that Grand Am sucks. It doesn't keep me up at night.
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 07:01 PM
Nope. You don't see me touting ALMS as the solution either. Panoz made the mistake of hitching his wagon to a formula that doesn't meet the needs of his market and that he has little control over.
You're making all the IRL arguments from the late ninties for road racing. Opportunity for the little GUYZ! Manufacturers! Wheel 2 Wheel EGGZitement. BIG Feeldz of grass roots racing heroZ!
The Frances don't care about any of that stuff.
IRL and Grand-Am's situations are not at all similar. There was a significent existing demand for what Grand-Am offers, whereas Tony George created his demand through subsidizing the teams in the IRL. If Grand-Am shifted in the direction that the IRL has taken the past few years, then you bet that I'd stop supporting it.
And I'd say the Frances do care, if for no other reason than because it gives J.C. a place to race, and perhaps the entry fees and the few hundred tickets sold at ISC venues are enough to turn a profit.
Some people compare it to the IRL.
I'd say a comparison to Club Racing is more appropriate.
I agree with you completely. Sports car racing is little more than very expensive club racing. Always has been, always will be. Factory teams come and go, but at the end of the the day, the privateers are the backbone of the series. If you don't have them, you don't have a racing series.
Sean O'Gorman
10-21-04, 07:06 PM
Okay, here is a serious question for you folks.
Since Grand-Am isn't the answer, and ALMS isn't the answer, how should sports car racing be? And I'm talking about serious answers, you can't say "30 car grids of factory teams with 1,500 lb 900 hp cars." You have to take into consideration the fact that there is little manufacturer interest right now (which is probably good, since manufacturers have historically been a bad thing to build a series on), and not enough of a fan base to justify high cost racing without an appropriate level of sponsorship.
Something tells me any legitimate answer is going to be little more than "Grand-Am with smaller cockpits and a bit more horsepower."
Since Grand-Am isn't the answer, and ALMS isn't the answer, how should sports car racing be?
Good stuff or nothing for me. Since the racing world can't afford the good stuff, I choose nothing over GrandAm.
Michaelhatesfans
10-21-04, 07:46 PM
Since Grand-Am isn't the answer, and ALMS isn't the answer, how should sports car racing be?
At this point, I would say scrap the prototypes altogether. All of them. If there isn't a market for true prototypes, then why should we create hideous spec cars and call them prototypes just for the sake of having them? Make the premier class for production based cars - and no, no Group C cars with license plates like the Toyota GT1, I mean production cars. Leave the door open for everyone, but this is not a place for one off/purpose built racers. Nothing goes on the exterior of the car (wings/air dams) that you can't get from your local dealer. Engines can be heavily modified, but it must start from the block that the street version comes with. You can run a turbo, but only if you can buy the street version with a turbo. This doesn't mean slow cars - remember what Electromotive was doing with 300ZX engines not so long ago in GTP. So you've got cars that look more or less like GTS cars, but with insanely powerful engines. I think the body flares on the current Trans Am cars are a bit excessive and distract from the original shape of the car - I'm thinking more silhouette cars, templates and all.
What I'm shooting for are lightening fast cars that are difficult to drive. Manufacturers like it because of the brand recognition, and privateers can buy the same basic platform as the factory teams, ideally even run pretty much the same car, much in the way that the 956/962 developed. The bottom line is, if the factories pull out - or even if they don't get involved at all, you can still go buy the basic car and develop it on your own.
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