2005 Schedule

[devilmaster]

merged threads....

thanks to the bosses for fixing the apparent gaff in the forum software, cause it wasn't me! :D








(and if it was, prove it) :P

Steve

[devilmaster]

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/Event/EventSchedule.asp?Year=2005

PREVIEW: (schedule subject to change)
Long Beach Apr 10: Long Beach

Monterrey May 22: Monterrey

Milwaukee Jun 4: Milwaukee

Portland Jun 19: Portland

Cleveland Jun 26: Cleveland

Toronto Jul 10: Toronto

Edmonton Jul 17: Edmonton

Silicon valley Jul 31: Silicon Valley

Denver Aug 14: Denver

Montreal Aug 28: Montreal

Las Vegas Sep 25: Las Vegas

Korea Oct 16: Korea

Australia Oct 23: Australia

Mexico City Nov 6: Mexico City

[pchall]

LOL.

You missed.

All we want to know are the 2005 dates where you will arrive at races with the bed of your Dakota filled with chilled bubbas.

[The Doctor]

Apr 10 Long Beach
May 22 Monterrey, MX
Jun 4 Milwaukee
June 19 Portland
June 26 Cleveland
Jul 10 Toronto
Jul 17 Edmonton
July 31 Silicon Valley
Aug 14 Denver
Aug 28 Montreal
Sep 25 Las Vegas
Oct 16 Ansan, Korea
Oct 23 Surfers
Nov 6 Mexico City

More dates to come, possibly.

Edit: All that work to help devilmaster out. All for nothing. ;)

[devilmaster]

Press Release:

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8500

Steve

[devilmaster]

Edit: All that work to help devilmaster out. All for nothing. ;)

If you check the times of the posts, this thread was started at 2:08, the proper thread was started at 2:09, and pchall's response was at 2:10. ;)
Please check other thread..... :P

Steve

[Dirty Sanchez]

bush :thumdown:

[pchall]

Apr 10 Long Beach
May 22 Monterrey, MX
Jun 4 Milwaukee***
June 19 Portland
June 26 Cleveland***
Jul 10 Toronto***
Jul 17 Edmonton***
July 31 Silicon Valley
Aug 14 Denver
Aug 28 Montrea***l
Sep 25 Las Vegas
Oct 16 Ansan, Korea
Oct 23 Surfers
Nov 6 Mexico City

More dates to come, possibly.

*** Steve is charge of the bubba supply at these events. :)

ps: I have been to a race in Edmonton. [Can Am!!! The glory days of North American road racing] About 1968, when Dad and I deadheaded on a flight arranged to get some Col. his flight time pay.

[Dirty Sanchez]

double bush :thumdown: :thumdown:

[jonovision_man]

bush :thumdown:

Kerry then? I'm not following. :)

[pchall]

bush :thumdown:

Give them a break.

Otherwise you only have crapwagons on Sundays for the rest of your life.

[Methanolandbrats]

Not that anyone will GAF, but I'm done. After 10 years of this **** there is nothing worth saving on either side. Professional American Road Racing is dead.

[devilmaster]

*** Steve is charge of the bubba supply at these events. :)


K, as long as you realize that each bubba will cost you 1 million dollars, so I can afford to start the karting track. :p

Steve

[devilmaster]

Thanks to the OC-elf for merging the threads ;)

Steve

[FCYTravis]

Below.

Me.

This sucks. :thumdown: :thumdown: :thumdown:

WTF did we fight so hard for? Another dozen street parades?

BRING BACK THE ROAD RACES for Christ's sake.

[CART T. Katz]

from chat room:


ctk_on_opera don't these people realise that:
ctk_on_opera A) you must go where they want you
ctk_on_opera B) there aren't any SAFE natural terrain courses anymore
ctk_on_opera and
devilmaster sometimes its hard to look at the big picture.
ctk_on_opera C) those that are don't want us
ctk_on_opera my opinion is that for where we are right now, 14 is a good number

right now we need to build and be profitable. if we must be on the streets and only have 14 races, then we are on the streets and have 14 races. it is highly apparant to me that TPTB* of road america and laguna seca really don't want champcar in their (alleged) lacklustre promotion of the races or less. don't you think that right now, if it were profitable to go back to those places, that they would go back there?

*the powers that be

[KLang]

Press Release:

http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8500

Steve


Sounds like there will be more dates coming. They really need to fill in the gap between Long Beach and Monterrey.

For me, I can plan on Las Vegas for sure. Now I just need to decide on a replacement for RA.

[FCYTravis]

Excuse me. No "safe" natural terrain road courses anymore?

I call BS. What was wrong with the FOUR we had in 2003? Are Laguna, Mid-Ohio and Road America now all completely unsafe? :shakehead

We're burying our heads in the sand and pretending all is well, just like the EARL lemmings.

Laguna and RA *need* to be on the schedule.

[jonovision_man]

Now I just need to decide on a replacement for RA.

There's still flights to Belgium available around the time of Spa 2005. :)

Losing RA and Laguna stinks, needs to be more road courses... but the reality is Champcars aren't enough of a draw right now to get the people out to them. :(

jono

[CART T. Katz]

Excuse me. No "safe" natural terrain road courses anymore?

I call BS. What was wrong with the FOUR we had in 2003? Are Laguna, Mid-Ohio and Road America now all completely unsafe? :shakehead


ctk_on_opera C) those that are don't want us

[Warlock!]

Aw shucks. The schedule isn't to everyone's liking.

Waah.

:cry:

I'll watch, not that anyone will GAF.


Warlock!

[nrc]

Champ car is still in discussions with multiple US venues including Laguna Seca and Road America. The discussion with Laguna Seca is for the September 11 date they announced on their schedule.

Safety has nothing to do with the reasons LS, RA or MO aren't on the calendar.

[rabbit]

Apr 10 Long Beach
May 22 Monterrey, MX

...

Aug 28 Montreal
Sep 25 Las Vegas
Oct 16 Ansan, Korea

At least there aren't any big gaps. :shakehead :rolleyes:

[jonovision_man]

At least there aren't any big gaps. :shakehead :rolleyes:

The biggest gap seems to be between fan expecations and what ownership has delivered.

If they're going to rent a track, why Las Vegas? Why not RA or Laguna?

jono

[devilmaster]

Like NRC said, expect this to be added

Laguna Seca Sept 11, Laguna Seca

Laguna Seca announced their sked for next year with ChampCar on it. Just because you didn't see it today doesn't mean its officially trashed.

Steve

[nrc]

Correction: Vegas date is actually September 24th.

[CART T. Katz]

Champ car is still in discussions with multiple US venues including Laguna Seca and Road America. The discussion with Laguna Seca is for the September 11 date they announced on their schedule.

Safety has nothing to do with the reasons LS, RA or MO aren't on the calendar.

i know

/points to response to travis

[jonovision_man]

Like NRC said, expect this to be added

Laguna Seca Sept 11, Laguna Seca

Laguna Seca announced their sked for next year with ChampCar on it. Just because you didn't see it today doesn't mean its officially trashed.

Steve

Hope you're right, that would be great.

When's RA? :)

jono

[devilmaster]

In the end people, its the Koreas and Argentinas which will save the RA's and MO's.

They need to go to enough tracks that are willing to pay the money to make a profit, so that the struggling tracks - the ones we here in North America love to go to - can still hold a race without breaking the Champcar budget.

Steve

[mueber]

The important thing is that I am not putting my money, time and talent on the line for a long shot like Champ Car, so I really can’t criticize them for going where they think they can get an audience promptly.

Nothing is more bogus than the, “If you build it, they will come,” theory of marketing. They haven’t come to Mid-Ohio, Elkhart Lake or Laguna Seca for five years, and all the money and marketing in the world won’t bring them back for along time.

Do I like it? No, I don’t. But it isn’t my money being spent to try to resurrect a series that was mismanaged to death by the same greedy, selfish hypocrites who left it and moved to the IRL. If you want to whine about it, be my guest. But I see Champ Car as the only hope for a major open wheel series in the United States, and I will support them if they run in the parking lot of a Walmart here in Fort Wayne, if it helps to stabilize the series and move toward a brighter future.

The alternative, as someone else stated, is crapwagons forever.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Give them a break.

Otherwise you only have crapwagons on Sundays for the rest of your life.I did... during the rebuilding years 2003 and 2004. By 2005, I expected things to get better, not worse.

I don't watch the IRL... they've never been a part of my life. F1 and ALMS run on Sunday. I'll continue to watch them.

[RaceGrrl]

I'm not surprised to see this kind of schedule. I'm not happy about it, and am disappointed that there aren't more natural terrain road courses, but I want CCWS to stay around and if being primarily a street series for a few years is what it takes, I'll stick around.

[Sean O'Gorman]

In the end people, its the Koreas and Argentinas which will save the RA's and MO's.

No they wont, because there is no major part of the fan base that wants Korea and Argentina, and those tracks aren't going to create a significant fan base. RA and MO had a fan base at one time, and if they could fix the series the right way, there'd be one again.

You can't tell me that Kalkhoven can afford to buy COSWORTH RACING but can't get the series into some decent road courses.

:bangsheadonwall:

[Ankf00]

this eternal "rebuilding year" stuff is weak sauce :(

[FTG]

Laguna and RA *need* to be on the schedule.

Why?

[FCYTravis]

Because they're part of the great Champ Car tradition of outstanding road racing on the greatest road circuits in America?

If Laguna and RA go away, the only US road circuit will be the decidedly underwhelming Portland International.

That just ain't right.

[devilmaster]

No they wont, because there is no major part of the fan base that wants Korea and Argentina, and those tracks aren't going to create a significant fan base. RA and MO had a fan base at one time, and if they could fix the series the right way, there'd be one again.

You can't tell me that Kalkhoven can afford to buy COSWORTH RACING but can't get the series into some decent road courses.

:bangsheadonwall:

Never said that Sean. Yer right. KK is rich and could. But he's not a coke-snorting, hammer wielding, born on third so he thinks he got a triple moron who has way too much money for his own good.

How do you make MO (as an example) survive? They have to be able to afford the sanctioning fee. So who pays nowadays?

1) Presenting sponsor.
2) Local government.
3) One really well heeled person.
4) The track itself, knowing that they will recoup their money on tickets, vendors and the like.

Now, for Champcar to be profitable, (and it has to be profitable, or we are just delaying the inevitable) they need so much from sanctioning fees to cover their costs. 10 years ago, it was 2 million and you got a race.

Now, for MO - if they can't get a presenting sponsor, and the local government is too small, and no one person will pony it up, for them to put on a Champcar race, they have to pay for it and expect to make a profit on the return.

If Champcar are profitable on the whole, then they can go to MO and say, we'll let you pay only 500 grand as a sanctioning fee. but Champcar should be profitable before they do that. No point in returning to the economic model of 3 years ago where they blew the bank. As much as the paying fan is a big part of this series, it comes down to money, plain and simple. they go to a korea or argentina because the local government will pony up 5 million to get them there. Why does F1 go to Barhain while there may be no Brit GP?
This is business, first and foremost. If MO could afford to pay 3 or 4 million a year to Champcar, they'd still be there, no doubt.

OWRS is run by men who have made fortunes by building companies. They see a profit in Champcar, else we wouldn't be talking here, Champcar would have been dead and buried by now. It isn't, but Champcar has to be profitable.

For MO or RA to be around, it might take a few more of these profit-making, no true fan, boring street parades. For each fan, the question then becomes if you can accept that.

Steve

[bdogg187]

I am still watching next year, but I have to say I am dissapointed. This will probably be one of, if not the worst season in Champ Car history. I know its what has to happen, but it still sucks.

[Jervis Tetch 1]

So what happened with all this big talk about Buenos Aires? :confused:

[devilmaster]

So what happened with all this big talk about Buenos Aires? :confused:

Probably still in the works.

[racer2c]

Put me in the catagory of one who would watch in the WalMart parking lot.

I'll be interested to see what the auto media's take on this schedule is.

[FTG]

Because they're part of the great Champ Car tradition of outstanding road racing on the greatest road circuits in America?

If Laguna and RA go away, the only US road circuit will be the decidedly underwhelming Portland International.

That just ain't right.

We went bankrupt with them. What's the worst thing that could happen if we abandon them? Bankruptcy.

[Dr. Corkski]

We went bankrupt with them. What's the worst thing that could happen if we abandon them? Bankruptcy.Which is based on the ridiculous assumption that it was the road courses' fault for CART going bankrupt. Then again, this is coming from a JV fanboy... :gomer:

[Rob]

So as of right this moment, the IRL has more American natural terrain road courses on the 2005 schedule than we do. WTF?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Why?

If you have to ask that, you aren't a real Champ Car fan.

[pchall]

Excuse me. No "safe" natural terrain road courses anymore?

I call BS. What was wrong with the FOUR we had in 2003? Are Laguna, Mid-Ohio and Road America now all completely unsafe? :shakehead ...




How about No "profitable" natural terrain road courses anymore? The last Mid-Ohio race it looked like there were more fans at a Lumberman's 500 in the rain 20+ years ago. When private road course owners/promoters drop the ball you need to ditch them.

pchall <--- founding member of the Michelle Gajoch Disappreciation Society

[RTKar]

Natural terrain courses helped define the series that's why they should be included. The best fans the series had supported them; 60,70,80 thousand people attended MO & RA. Without them, it's not the same series.....just as the irl is not a good series with inferior car specs. A series with inferior courses is no different. Do you really think RA & MO would be added at a later date when the series becomes profitable ?... (if that happens). After becoming profitable running temporary city courses.............. All you'll see, are more city courses.

[ncmlj]

Here is the final schedule, it took me 20 minutes to figure out but, it's done. Now all enjoy 2005 :D

April 10 -- Long Beach (street)
April 24 -- Argentina
May 8 -- Brazil
May 22 -- Monterrey, Mexico (road course)
June 4 -- Milwaukee (oval, day)
June 19 -- Portland (road course)
June 26 -- Cleveland (Airport)
July 10 -- Toronto (street)
July 17 -- Edmonton (new, street)
July 31 – Silicon Valley (new, street)
Aug. 14 -- Denver (street)
Aug. 28 -- Montreal (road course)
Sept. 11 -- Road America
Sept. 24 -- Las Vegas (oval)
Oct. 2 -- Laguna Seca
Oct. 16 -- Ansan, Korea
Oct. 23 -- Australia (street)
Nov. 6 -- Mexico City (road course)


Cart use to race at Road America in Sept, take a look at the starting grid for Sept 11th 1994. Now thats a hell of a lineup .

http://www.bjwor.com/nialra94.html

I did get a E-mail from someone saying they were looking at putting RA in May, you ask me that is just plain stupid to even think of it, for one it sure the he11 isn't very warm in these parts that time of year (can anyone say Milwaukee 2003? I can,COLD!) and another as mentioned in someone elses post it's to close to June 4th race in Milwaukee. Thats a race every 2 weeks from April till Nov, Now I can handle that!!! As for Vancouver I am not sure where that could fit in. Either way the bottom line is Champ Car is ALIVE!!!

[stroker]

The important thing is that I am not putting my money, time and talent on the line for a long shot like Champ Car, so I really can’t criticize them for going where they think they can get an audience promptly.

Nothing is more bogus than the, “If you build it, they will come,” theory of marketing. They haven’t come to Mid-Ohio, Elkhart Lake or Laguna Seca for five years, and all the money and marketing in the world won’t bring them back for along time.

Do I like it? No, I don’t. But it isn’t my money being spent to try to resurrect a series that was mismanaged to death by the same greedy, selfish hypocrites who left it and moved to the IRL. If you want to whine about it, be my guest. But I see Champ Car as the only hope for a major open wheel series in the United States, and I will support them if they run in the parking lot of a Walmart here in Fort Wayne, if it helps to stabilize the series and move toward a brighter future.

The alternative, as someone else stated, is crapwagons forever.

Word, brother.

[FTG]

If you have to ask that, you aren't a real Champ Car fan.

If you think private business men should prop up a money losing event, you aren't American.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Never said that Sean. Yer right. KK is rich and could. But he's not a coke-snorting, hammer wielding, born on third so he thinks he got a triple moron who has way too much money for his own good.

How do you make MO (as an example) survive? They have to be able to afford the sanctioning fee. So who pays nowadays?

1) Presenting sponsor.
2) Local government.
3) One really well heeled person.
4) The track itself, knowing that they will recoup their money on tickets, vendors and the like.

Now, for Champcar to be profitable, (and it has to be profitable, or we are just delaying the inevitable) they need so much from sanctioning fees to cover their costs. 10 years ago, it was 2 million and you got a race.

Now, for MO - if they can't get a presenting sponsor, and the local government is too small, and no one person will pony it up, for them to put on a Champcar race, they have to pay for it and expect to make a profit on the return.

If Champcar are profitable on the whole, then they can go to MO and say, we'll let you pay only 500 grand as a sanctioning fee. but Champcar should be profitable before they do that. No point in returning to the economic model of 3 years ago where they blew the bank. As much as the paying fan is a big part of this series, it comes down to money, plain and simple. they go to a korea or argentina because the local government will pony up 5 million to get them there. Why does F1 go to Barhain while there may be no Brit GP?
This is business, first and foremost. If MO could afford to pay 3 or 4 million a year to Champcar, they'd still be there, no doubt.

OWRS is run by men who have made fortunes by building companies. They see a profit in Champcar, else we wouldn't be talking here, Champcar would have been dead and buried by now. It isn't, but Champcar has to be profitable.

For MO or RA to be around, it might take a few more of these profit-making, no true fan, boring street parades. For each fan, the question then becomes if you can accept that.

Steve

Your logic is contradicting. On one hand you say these guys are running a business (one that happens to be a hobby first, business second, at least as far as they are concernted) and have to do what is in their best interest first, but on the other hand you expect them to add unprofitable races after dumping them years earlier? It doesn't make sense. If the series were to become successful without the traditional road courses, what makes you think they would suddenly decide to bring them back? "When we ditched the road courses we got back on track, why bring them back now?" is probably what they'd think. Of course, IMO, there is very little possibility of Champ Car thriving under this scenario.

Champ Car needs to go back and look at the traditional races and why they've failed, figure out how they can get those race fans back, as well as bring in new ones, and build the series around that. The further they've moved away from the traditional events, the worse things have got, and I don't see any evidence of that changing.

[RTKar]

...and by the way, today was the last day for renewing RA season passes (at the discounted price)...

[Sean O'Gorman]

If you think private business men should prop up a money losing event, you aren't American.

Well, if you look at it as "propping up", of course it is going to seem foolish. I prefer "revival."

[cart7]

So as of right this moment, the IRL has more American natural terrain road courses on the 2005 schedule than we do. WTF?

Then again, the earls ROY is from Japan while CCWS's is American. Meanwhile, CCSW added an oval while the irl loses 2 next year. Go figure. :gomer:

[cart7]

originally posted by Sean O'Gorman If the series were to become successful without the traditional road courses, what makes you think they would suddenly decide to bring them back?

Ahh, young lad. We had this discussion way back in 2003 when Pook first brought up the re-evaluation of all circuits and the push to move everything closer to urban area's. (ie: more street races)

You're point is well made and brought up back then. These guys may very well make this whole "street race/festival/let's go downtown, get smashed and watch the cars go round" deal work. Then what? As you said, why would they want to go back?

Simple, they won't.

Not unless said road course could come up with the matching $$$ that a city brings to the table.

These are the scraps that are left after 8 years. Disinterested road racing fans that no longer show up at Cart/CCWS events were the cause. Why lose money so 5000 people show up at Laguna when you can throw a street race in downtown "We're trying to revitalize our downtown area and a street festival is just the deal" any city and get 70k - 150k to show up over 3 days.

I don't like it either but I'll hang around to see how this whole thing turns out. Just seeing CCWS last yet another year while TG, Honda, Toyota, Pimpski, whiney boy, Floyd, dashley, and all the rest squirm trying to figure out why no one likes their re-creation of Cart will be worth it alone.

Besides, what else is there, the earl on road courses. :rofl:

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't like it either but I'll hang around to see how this whole thing turns out. Just seeing CCWS last yet another year while TG, Honda, Toyota, Pimpski, whiney boy, Floyd, dashley, and all the rest squirm trying to figure out why no one likes their re-creation of Cart will be worth it alone.

Oh, I'm not going anywhere, Champ Car is like heroin to me. ;) I just don't really feel the excitement that often anymore. :(

[cart7]

Oh, I'm not going anywhere, Champ Car is like heroin to me. ;) I just don't really feel the excitement that often anymore. :(

Don't feel bad, I haven't felt that old excitement for a few years now. I'm holding out hope though.
:thumbup:

[Megger]

I'm glad the schedule is finally out! Personally disappointed because I've gone to RA for the past 8 years and there is no Florida races on the schedule this year. It sucks to lose the races you attend. Looks like I'll be going to Toronto this year instead of RA.

[ncmlj]

...and by the way, today was the last day for renewing RA season passes (at the discounted price)...


Actually I called them yesturday and asked about the season pass, I believe it was Laura that told me that they were no longer $200 as of Oct 16th, she put me on hold for a second to make sure, they were now $250 until Dec 15th. Ok I know the front page says $200 until Oct. 29th thats just what she told me and I wasn't really calling about the ticket any, if I was I would have got them for $200 cause thats what it said right in front of me on the screen :) I was actually calling to get some scoop on Champ Car but, she wouldn't budge, I thought I almost had her but, no luck lol, she said she wasn't at liberty to say :flame:

[FCYTravis]

Addendum:

Reports From Within tell me the 2005 TV package (with new networks AND production company) will be announced at Mexico City, and Spring Training will be on the West Coast in February. Firebird, anyone?

You heard it here last! :laugh:

[devilmaster]

Your logic is contradicting. On one hand you say these guys are running a business (one that happens to be a hobby first, business second, at least as far as they are concernted) and have to do what is in their best interest first, but on the other hand you expect them to add unprofitable races after dumping them years earlier? It doesn't make sense.

It does make sense, Sean. Do you think that every store in the walmart chain makes the same amount of profit? In that vein, do you think every track gives Champcar the same amount of a sanctioning fee, and then make the same amount of money from ticket sales? Of course not. What i'm saying to you is that any diverse corporation has assets that make more money than others, that some of their assets may not be profitable on their own. But taken as a whole, these corporations make money, which allows for the money losing and break even assets to survive.

Do they want them to stay that way? No. You'd prefer to keep all your businesses profitable on their own, that way you maximize your profit margin. But you can accept one that isn't doing so well for a while, as long as its in a good location, and then you can work on it to ensure profitability down the road.


If the series were to become successful without the traditional road courses, what makes you think they would suddenly decide to bring them back? "When we ditched the road courses we got back on track, why bring them back now?" is probably what they'd think. Of course, IMO, there is very little possibility of Champ Car thriving under this scenario.

I believe and i'll state that this group of owners is the closest thing we as fans as ever had to a group of owners who listen to the fans. It is that understanding of the fans which will or will not allow those races that we all want - to continue. It is too easy to cut the fat and not return to it. I believe these owners understand that tradition, and in a perfect world will still be at MO, RA and the others. But I feel that if Champcar is in the black, there is a chance they can work a deal to come back.


Champ Car needs to go back and look at the traditional races and why they've failed, figure out how they can get those race fans back, as well as bring in new ones, and build the series around that. The further they've moved away from the traditional events, the worse things have got, and I don't see any evidence of that changing.

It ain't going to change overnight, Sean, as much as you want it to. There is no quick fix here. I believe the owners originally said a 3 to 5 year plan to make it profitable. 3 to 5 years, in that time still running a series. But profitability - that has to be first and foremost, and it has to be done as quick as they can. You make the series as a whole work first. To do that, you go where you get paid the most. I've said it before, the traditional US venues have been poisoned by the split and associated bs. So the series goes where the money is. F1 does it, Nascar does it, hell, the IRL now does it. Then the owners, if they truly listen to the fans, can go back to an MO and say, we'd like to come back, and we'll work on a plan to make sure everyone makes money on it.

You will not return this series to profitability overnight. Nor can you return the races we all love to profitability overnight. In their effort to keep the series we all know and love and make that series viable again, they have had to make some harsh decisions. These decisions of course aren't easy, nor are they universally accepted - else we wouldn't be talking.

In the end, you get Champcar in the black as quickly as you can. Then, when its profitable, you go and look back at the tracks that the fans in North America want to be at. Find ways to make it work. And continue to grow the series to strength seen only back in the 90s.

Oh - and my logic isn't contradiciting. I'm looking at this from my own personal experiences and what I see OWRS doing. The only thing that contradicts is my personal attitude and why I keep wasting 30 minutes by posting comments i've posted a ton of times before.


Steve

[fourrunner]

I agree with you Steve! :thumbup:

I'm with the Three Amigo's until they decide to turn out the lites !

There really is no alternative series for me to follow!

[devilmaster]

thx bruce. :thumbup:

To be fair, i'm not trying to tell Sean or anyone else to have faith and stay the course. Each person has to decide their own fate. Methbrats has said he is going to walk. I have no doubt a couple others may follow.

I'm explaining what I feel is the logic of OWRS, as I see it. Nothing else. I'm explaining the whys to what we see in Champcar. Am I right? Maybe/maybe not. I feel I might be close, and thats what I offer. The explanation.

Steve

[nrc]

Natural terrain courses helped define the series that's why they should be included. The best fans the series had supported them; 60,70,80 thousand people attended MO & RA. Without them, it's not the same series.....just as the irl is not a good series with inferior car specs. A series with inferior courses is no different. Do you really think RA & MO would be added at a later date when the series becomes profitable ?... (if that happens). After becoming profitable running temporary city courses.............. All you'll see, are more city courses.

So it *is* the same series without Indy, but it's *not* the same series without RA & MO?

[racer2c]

So it *is* the same series without Indy, but it's *not* the same series without RA & MO?

Eww, good one! :thumbup: :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

The only thing that contradicts is my personal attitude and why I keep wasting 30 minutes by posting comments i've posted a ton of times before.

Likewise. ;)

[devilmaster]

Likewise. ;)

So does that mean we both care? And the things they say about today's youth.......



;)
Steve

[RTKar]

So it *is* the same series without Indy, but it's *not* the same series without RA & MO?

No, it became a lesser series without Indy but remained a top tier series. Remember there were two other high speed ovals though. Without RA & MO, (not to mention Fontana and MIS), the series known for a diversity of courses is almost gone.

[nrc]

No, it became a lesser series without Indy but remained a top tier series. Remember there were two other high speed ovals though. Without RA & MO, (not to mention Fontana and MIS), the series known for a diversity of courses is almost gone.

Two ovals, four road courses, three airport courses and five street courses isn't diverse?

[nrc]

I captured audio the press conference but it was so full of line noise it was taking forever to clean it up enough to be worth posting.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=172384&FS=CHAMPCAR


We're pleased to announce today our 2005 race schedule. Many people have worked very hard on the schedule and it's important to understand the many elements that must be taken into consideration to put together a schedule that makes good business sense for the series, good sense for our promoters, our sponsors, our drivers and our fans. We took several things into account as we determined the venue selection for announcing today.

First of all, we concentrated on those with long-term scheduling commitments; where we are not just doing one-off races, we're doing race that we can do year after year and build up each venue into a marquis event. We wanted to achieve a balance between domestic and international races, the excitement of the international races with all of our international drivers and yet the commitments of our sponsors for the domestic market.

Our schedule also had to reflect a good variety of race courses; circuits that will challenge our versatile and talented drivers. And to create the Champ Car World Series as a true World Series of racing. Lastly, the new venues we have added have been selected on the basis of their long-term economic growth potential, thus creating the marquis events we mentioned earlier. While we are announcing 14 races today, our schedule is still a work-in-progress. This is the starting line that we're announcing today; not the finishing line. We're still continuing conversations with a number of potential venues for the 2005 season and expect further additions for a schedule in the near future.

As has already been mentioned, Laguna Seca, Road America, and Vancouver are still under negotiation. If you feel like one or more of those events will make or break Champ car I suppose you should let them know before it's too late.

Note above that one of the criteria is that they be able to do a long term deal. That makes good business sense. But recall that not very long ago Road America was talking about wanting a one year deal. So even if they were willing to rent the track outright and promote it themselves, would it make good sense to that on a year to year basis?

[fourrunner]

It really sucks ... On one hand I want to keep these older Road Courses because they are Fabulous examples of the Charm & Character of our sport...On the other hand I understand that these three men have risked portions of their fortunes to revive the Series, and make it a money making proposition so it will last a long time. When only 5 or 10,000 people show up at these few races, we look as ridiculous as the IRL does at ALL of there Races !

I wish that the owners will risk some money on the traditions like Laguna, but if the Track is NOT as commited to Champ Car, then I say why bother.

[4wheeldrifter]

Below.

Me.

This sucks. :thumdown: :thumdown: :thumdown:

WTF did we fight so hard for? Another dozen street parades?

BRING BACK THE ROAD RACES for Christ's sake.


I'm in late on this (as usual) but you've summed it up for me. As with MethandBrats, Mexico City will likely be the end of good, long run for me and CART/Champcar. Back in the early 90's when I was really getting into CART, the street races were my least favorite. I learned to like them better over the years but for me, after I got over Indy (note: happened before the split), the roadcourses were what drew me in. I'll no doubt watch a few races but, no RA, no M-O, no etc, no me. :(

I sincerely hope Champcar thrives and hopefully can get back to their roots someday.

[RTKar]

Two ovals, four road courses, three airport courses and five street courses isn't diverse?

It may be so for the moment but I think ovals are in a precarious situation. Milwaukee would probably be gone, ironically, if RA was on the schedule or more likely if there was a street race in Chicago. I don't think the powers that be want to totally abandon the Chicago/ Milwaukee metropolitan area, so the Mile becomes the only alternative in their eyes. I think a street course would be much prefered in Vegas by CHAMPCAR. One thing that concerns me with city courses is lack of speed, elevation change and runoff. A few street courses don't bother me, a perceived trend towards a majority, does.

[pchall]

Given the shortage of US ovals suitable for formula car racing and that ISC camps on those few, this point is moot.

Move on.

ISC has destroyed real oval racing and will not let the good stuff back on the few remaining tracks that make for good racing.

[chop456]

I captured audio the press conference but it was so full of line noise it was taking forever to clean it up enough to be worth posting.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=172384&FS=CHAMPCAR



As has already been mentioned, Laguna Seca, Road America, and Vancouver are still under negotiation. If you feel like one or more of those events will make or break Champ car I suppose you should let them know before it's too late.

Note above that one of the criteria is that they be able to do a long term deal. That makes good business sense. But recall that not very long ago Road America was talking about wanting a one year deal. So even if they were willing to rent the track outright and promote it themselves, would it make good sense to that on a year to year basis?

No.

I called Road America a month ago to let them know that until ChampCar is back on the schedule, I wouldn't be renewing my season ticket or going to any other races there. Beyond that, I don't think there's really much I can do.

[Warlock!]

Not talking about any particular posts or posters in particular, but...

Occasionally someone posts a link to Crack Forum, laughing at their members when changes to the vision disgruntle a portion of the Earl fanbase. Every once in a while I'll click on the link and chuckle at the responses I read. Ya know what? This thread seems hauntingly familiar... my earlier response included.

Just kinda funny... huh?

:D

Warlock!

[jonovision_man]

Not talking about any particular posts or posters in particular, but...

Occasionally someone posts a link to Crack Forum, laughing at their members when changes to the vision disgruntle a portion of the Earl fanbase. Every once in a while I'll click on the link and chuckle at the responses I read. Ya know what? This thread seems hauntingly familiar... my earlier response included.

Just kinda funny... huh?

:D

Warlock!

I'm addicted. :) Those guys are a hoot, I don't mind arguing back and forth with them, sometimes there's common ground, other times there's... well, I don't want to name names either, but his initials are JW, and he ain't at my door. :)

jono

[Andrew Longman]

You know if there was not any grumbling about the schedule CCWS would be in real trouble.

Actual devoted fans are unhappy there are not more races and more natural terrain road courses? They want better oval venues? That's a bad thing? What if no one cared? Are you waiting with baited breath for the NCTS schedule? The Hooters Pro Series? Is anyone?

This is what is necessary to make it work. If it succeeds there will be more success. Don't blame the three amigos. Blame TG for creating two diminished series.

Personally, I tired of that though. I will just enjoy what I get and move on.

[TRDfan]

Are you waiting with baited breath for the NCTS schedule?



There is a tentative one already out. Personally, I might go to the NCTS/Champ Car double header in Vegas. (As long as there is a different areo package.)



Since no RA, and my daughter graduates HS the weekend of Milwaukee, I need to start weighing options. (Maybe 05 will be the year I go to the USGP)

[RTKar]

Given the shortage of US ovals suitable for formula car racing and that ISC camps on those few, this point is moot.

Move on.

ISC has destroyed real oval racing and will not let the good stuff back on the few remaining tracks that make for good racing.


Brazil, Germany, England...should they be tried again?

[jonovision_man]

Brazil, Germany, England...should they be tried again?

Is there a promter willing to foot the bill? If so, sure, if not, I'd say no.

jono

[Methanolandbrats]

OK, I'm out of retirement due to the urging of another member. Here is the email I sent to Champcar:

Subject: Road America, Laguna and natural terrain road courses
Message: Hi, I've been a CART and then Champcar fan since the very beginning of the series. The abandonment of RA, Laguna and other real race tracks is my line in the sand. If you guys can't add those to the schedule and save the most important aspect of Champcar history, there is nothing worth saving and I'm gone. I feel like the ten year battle against FTG has been a waste of time. The IRL is a crappy oval series and Champcar is turning into a crappy street race series. You are alienating your most hardcore fans and possibly handing those roadcourses to FTG in 2006. Please find a way to fix it.

That's it. BTW Warlock, I was at RA watching Can Am while you were swimming around in your dad's balls, or possibly puking on your mom's shoulder, so perhaps my perspective on the evolution of road racing deserves some consideration.

[fourrunner]

Swimming Around in Your Dad's Ball's .... Now THAT'S a keeper !!!

Call me sheltered, but I've never heard that one before ! :rofl:

[Ankf00]

Bob Stoops hates puppies and Jesus

[Amanda B.'s Mom]

Methanolandbrats,

thank you for sending that e-mail to the OWRS. I have always been a huge advocate of keeping all of the courses that make OWR special. It is about diversity. It is aboutn a variety of trackds and conditions. If OWRS switches to a street course only series I WILL NOT be interested anymore. This is sad, because I have been a long time supporter of the series. I sent OWRS my own concerns bouth the direction they were taking a while ago. Did not receive a response, which I did not expect to.

With the recent event occuring witin the Atlantic Series and OWTS, I may just become a huge supporter of the Star Mazda, Grand Am, and ALMS Series. Actually I am already a supporter of ALMS and STar Mazda.

How can a series alienate its long time supporters and expect to stay in usiness? How can they abandon what was one of thieir greatest attributes---versitility?

Sometimes I wonder :confused:

Sorry about the typos but I have sticky computer keys. lol

[Brian_R]

Another late entry to the party (I guess):

Does anyone else see some interesting (disturbing?) trend as to the US Venues in terms of geography? 5 of the 7 US races are in the western 3rd of the country. I don't know about what anyone else thinks about that, but I'm sure you can't build up a national fan base and TV ratings when not only a race that season isn't within reasonable driving distance, it's almost nonexistant. When CART started the venue shuffle game a few years back, and now with ChampCar, some marketing "guru" must have forgot that if fans don't have a reasonable way to relate / interact with the drivers/personalities they see on TV, they're probably not goiing to give a hoot. The recent moves of the past two years shut down some of the classic midwest races. I could see if they needed to do so to inject more face time in other regional markets, i.e. South, Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, Northeast, but unfortunately they just shifted everything to the West.

Hopefully the TV package will come to light for next year soon. I think the weekly show is still a good move, but with the tape delayed races I've been TiVoing much of the race action and watching it later instead. Hopefully they'll have some more incentive to watch that day if it's live.

[trish]

I hope those of you who have concerns about the 2006 schedule follow in Methanolandbrats footsteps and send Champ Car an email pronto. One person doing so is not going to be enough. It's better to take the time to give feedback than to just walk away with them never knowing why you left. I think Champ Car is taking it for granted that they have this loyal fanbase that will swallow anything they serve up.

Big Oops! That should be 2005 schedule.

[Steve99]

I count 3 races in the eastern 2/3rds of the country: Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Denver. It would be nice to get RA back, and CCWS could use a race or two on the east coast.

[nrc]

It's interesting to me that I'm hearing ultimatums being laid down for Champ car, but none for Road America. Why do you assume that it's Champ car's fault after all the crap they've gotten from Road America over the last few years?

Are you saying that Road America is right no matter what kind of deal they're asking for?

Frankly if Road America won't make a three year commitment to the series at a reasonable rate then the series is better off without them. This annual, "will Road America stay our go question" only contributes to the instability of the series.

[Rob]

Does anyone else see some interesting (disturbing?) trend as to the US Venues in terms of geography? 5 of the 7 US races are in the western 3rd of the country. I don't know about what anyone else thinks about that, but I'm sure you can't build up a national fan base and TV ratings when not only a race that season isn't within reasonable driving distance, it's almost nonexistant. When CART started the venue shuffle game a few years back, and now with ChampCar, some marketing "guru" must have forgot that if fans don't have a reasonable way to relate / interact with the drivers/personalities they see on TV, they're probably not goiing to give a hoot. The recent moves of the past two years shut down some of the classic midwest races. I could see if they needed to do so to inject more face time in other regional markets, i.e. South, Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, Northeast, but unfortunately they just shifted everything to the West.

I complained about this a few weeks ago and was basically told by a certain poster that I hate foreigners and should switch to NASCAR. :rolleyes:

We definitely need another race or three out east. I live in North Carolina. In 2003 I drove to St. Petersburg and Mid-Ohio. Now the only race within a day's drive is Cleveland.

[pchall]

It would be nice to get RA back, and CCWS could use a race or two on the east coast.

Forget about Iraq and invade Canada -- two more eastern races! ;)

[Ankf00]

Forget about Iraq and invade Canada -- two more eastern races! ;)

Montreal's only what, 8 hours? from the City?

beats the hell out of my potential 24 hour drive to get to cleveland :D

[Brian_R]

I count 3 races in the eastern 2/3rds of the country: Cleveland, Milwaukee, and Denver. It would be nice to get RA back, and CCWS could use a race or two on the east coast.

I counted Denver in the west, from looking at a map, no biggie.

I should have read the whole press conference transcript before opening my mouth
:gomer:


Q. Two questions. First, regarding Laguna Seca they have reached a schedule with a tentative date of September 11. Is that what is being discussed? Second question, is nothing in the southeast or east are there any discussions ongoing about those areas?

JOE CHRNELICH: First of all, you are correct the date is September 11 with Laguna Seca. Consistent with their posting of the schedule we are, as we have said, in negotiations. In terms of southeastern destinations, I wouldn't look for anything in 2005. We have one that might possibly pop on which we can't comment any further on. What I would tell you though is even though '05 may or may not be likely, '06 you will see some very intense focus on getting us back on the map in that region.

Q. What about the great northeastern part of the U.S.A., New York, Philadelphia, anything in that area?

JOE CHRNELICH: Any in all of the above. We think that area, whether it be New York, Philadelphia, could be a Washington D.C., I mean, that whole sector is very, very important to us rounding out our schedule ultimately over time. We're having discussions with -- in some of those markets already but that will be '06. It's safe to say that it's clearly in our sights. We think we need to be there. Provided discussions go well and we find the right partners, that can occur.

Maybe I should reserve judgement until this time next year...

[RTKar]

I should have read the whole press conference transcript before opening my mouth
:gomer:


Maybe I should reserve judgement until this time next year...


The way people in racing lie, it really doesn't matter what they say, until you see it happen, don't believe the rhetoric.

[fourrunner]

Another late entry to the party (I guess):

Does anyone else see some interesting (disturbing?) trend as to the US Venues in terms of geography? 5 of the 7 US races are in the western 3rd of the country. I don't know about what anyone else thinks about that, but I'm sure you can't build up a national fan base and TV ratings when not only a race that season isn't within reasonable driving distance, it's almost nonexistant. When CART started the venue shuffle game a few years back, and now with ChampCar, some marketing "guru" must have forgot that if fans don't have a reasonable way to relate / interact with the drivers/personalities they see on TV, they're probably not goiing to give a hoot. The recent moves of the past two years shut down some of the classic midwest races. I could see if they needed to do so to inject more face time in other regional markets, i.e. South, Southeast, Mid-Atlantic, Northeast, but unfortunately they just shifted everything to the West.

Hopefully the TV package will come to light for next year soon. I think the weekly show is still a good move, but with the tape delayed races I've been TiVoing much of the race action and watching it later instead. Hopefully they'll have some more incentive to watch that day if it's live.


Hi Brian

I went to Laguna Seca and there was a getogether in Monterey which Billy Kamphausen was the featured Speaker / Guest ( Thanks Again Anaya and crew )

I directed a specific question to him about the possibllities of a Philly / New York / Washington / Allentown / Camden -- hell anywhere in the Northeast
Race for us neglected people in the most populous section of the USA ..

His responce was not in 2005 BUT they are investigating possibilities for 2006 and beyond including places that had inquired about Champ Car Racing in their City... he would not be specific about where but he said that it was definitely on the agenda

His primary attitude was that CCWS is basically a New Organization and has to grow with logic and profit in mind ... He also said that dealing with the cities is a LONG process with the many hurdles they have to leap because of Politics .. the Environmental issues etc.... it can't be done in 6 month's or even a year... from nothing ... even with no hurdles and a green lite ... it would still take a 1 1/2 years to get things in place to do it right.

Billy seemed like a pretty straightforward guy, and he hung around for over an hour just chatting with us and answered all the questions he could without showing Champ Cars hand. He also gave anyone who wanted a guided tour behind the scenes the next day at the track ... He was good on his word !

They have a 5 year plan, and there just ending year 1, so I figure they have another 4 years if I'm doing the math right...

[jonovision_man]

It's interesting to me that I'm hearing ultimatums being laid down for Champ car, but none for Road America. Why do you assume that it's Champ car's fault after all the crap they've gotten from Road America over the last few years?

Are you saying that Road America is right no matter what kind of deal they're asking for?

Frankly if Road America won't make a three year commitment to the series at a reasonable rate then the series is better off without them. This annual, "will Road America stay our go question" only contributes to the instability of the series.

RA has been losing money on CART/Champ Car, so I figure most fans see the problem on the other side of the equation.

I certainly don't blame RA for the attendance problems at road circuits, they aren't alone, it's hit every road circuit CCWS races at. This is a problem for the CCWS guys to solve, they have to make things favourable enough for promoters so they want a race.

jono

[fourrunner]

Maybe Natural Terrain Road Racing is dead in America

Everyone seems to want them, but no one seems to want to go to them ...

But they'll certainly attend a Street Race Festival ... Probably because they can do so many other things within walking distance during the down times ... Plus the City has so much to gain from a successful event.

Laguna Seca attendance was sadly enemic ... I enjoyed the Race ... The Paddock there is totally open to Fans ... The Facility is Absolutely Beautiful, the Weather was great ... but the crowd was thin !

I saw little promotion around Monterey ..... except for Driver Appearances in the vacinity and I was there from Tuesday on enjoying what the region has to offer ...

With the cars being so competitive, and the Drivers pretty competent from Top to Bottom, it's hard to pass ... But in attendance you aren't seeing that ... You just see your section of the Track and the Excitement is awesome, so I don't understand the lack of attendance.

Except for morbid curiosity, the IRL isn't going to do any better!

It's the hardcores like ourselves who make the best of these Road Courses!
I don't think there are enough of us left in each tracks geographic area to support it anymore!

[manic mechanic]

Maybe Natural Terrain Road Racing is dead in America

Everyone seems to want them, but no one seems to want to go to them ...

But they'll certainly attend a Street Race Festival ... Probably because they can do so many other things within walking distance during the down times ... Plus the City has so much to gain from a successful event.

Laguna Seca attendance was sadly enemic ... I enjoyed the Race ... The Paddock there is totally open to Fans ... The Facility is Absolutely Beautiful, the Weather was great ... but the crowd was thin !

I saw little promotion around Monterey ..... except for Driver Appearances in the vacinity and I was there from Tuesday on enjoying what the region has to offer ...

With the cars being so competitive, and the Drivers pretty competent from Top to Bottom, it's hard to pass ... But in attendance you aren't seeing that ... You just see your section of the Track and the Excitement is awesome, so I don't understand the lack of attendance.

Except for morbid curiosity, the IRL isn't going to do any better!

It's the hardcores like ourselves who make the best of these Road Courses!
I don't think there are enough of us left in each tracks geographic area to support it anymore!

I can't speak about RA and MO (never been to either circuit), but I will concur about the LACK of promotion for Laguna Seca. Small amounts of signage and a downtown "street fest" do not make for an increased turnout, It takes a LOT MORE than a few driver appearances during the race weekend to bring out the "casual" fan.

This situation alarms me, because SCRAMP is one of the most accomidating groups I have ever dealt with when it comes to track personnell. It just seems like more businesses and civic groups should be "on the bandwagon" to make an event like that more successful, but they are not.

"Mus be 'cuz them cars 'aint got fennerz"... :laugh:

Ahh, the dumbing down of America...NASCRAP has screwed us all!

manic

[TravelGal]

It's the hardcores like ourselves who make the best of these Road Courses!
I don't think there are enough of us left in each tracks geographic area to support it anymore!

Good point 4r. We can't be like old Mr. Fezziwig, who refused to change his business because of tradition.

Don't all stone me at once. I'm probably bigger on tradition than most people. But the problem is, as 4r said, there do not seem to be enough people who believe as we do to fill the venues.

This year I went to Laguna Seca. Last year I went to Portland. And several other races each year also. Fact is, part of the attraction of natural terrain courses these days (at least those two) is that no one else is there. As much as we might hate it, it's not a sign of a healthy arrangement.

Considering we were counted out 10 months ago, I wish everyone would cool their jets a little. This is a tremendous accomplishment. A successful year. A great points race. A 14-date (so far) schedule. Let's celebrate how far we've come while asking for more; not torpedo the whole ship because it's not all done yet.

:shakehead

End of rant.

[fourrunner]

Good point 4r. We can't be like old Mr. Fezziwig, who refused to change his business because of tradition.

Don't all stone me at once. I'm probably bigger on tradition than most people. But the problem is, as 4r said, there do not seem to be enough people who believe as we do to fill the venues.

This year I went to Laguna Seca. Last year I went to Portland. And several other races each year also. Fact is, part of the attraction of natural terrain courses these days (at least those two) is that no one else is there. As much as we might hate it, it's not a sign of a healthy arrangement.

Considering we were counted out 10 months ago, I wish everyone would cool their jets a little. This is a tremendous accomplishment. A successful year. A great points race. A 14-date (so far) schedule. Let's celebrate how far we've come while asking for more; not torpedo the whole ship because it's not all done yet.

:shakehead

End of rant.

Good Rant it was too !!

In another thread I said that as I recall that The Three Amigo's have a 5 Year Plan for the Success of Champ Car .... and we are just exioting year 1 ... that leaves 4 more years to go ... To say that year 1 was a success, considering where it was this time last year is an understatement

Champ Car should be proud of its success this year, and all signs point to better times to come...

A few are impatient, and the fact that CCWS is "Private" frustrates some because they tell you what they have planned as they see fit .. Which to me is a Good thing

Billy Kamphausen told us at the Monterey Bay get together that all things point to the future success of the series, and I like Billy Kamphausen enough to believe him absolutely.

Plus these Road Courses are not dead just yet ... But I have to agree with nrc that these 1 year deals are poison to Champ Car !