View Full Version : Yoda next?
CHAMPCARS4EVER
11-05-04, 04:11 PM
Uh-oh. Looks like more trouble in Gomerville.
--------
http://www.freep.com/sports/othersports/brudenell5e_20041105.htm
Toyota is expected to follow on the heels of GM and quit the IRL after the 2006 season. That would leave Honda as the only engine supplier to the Indianapolis-based, open-wheel series.
Cost of competing in the series and flat television ratings are thought to be behind Toyota's thinking. GM already has said the value of the IRL "no longer meets our business objectives."
If Toyota does split, Honda would be left holding the baby -- and responsible for providing engines to all IRL teams. The drain on resources might be too much for the giant Japanese manufacturer, which won 14 of 16 races this year and dwarfed Chevrolet and Toyota's racing budget.
Toyota likely will spend its money on a NASCAR Nextel Cup program as early as 2007. This year, Toyota became the first foreign automaker to compete in a major NASCAR series when it joined Craftsman Truck.
Sean O'Gorman
11-05-04, 05:59 PM
Everyone point and laugh at the IRL.
Like this: :laugh: ----------------------> :gomer:
:laugh: ---------------------> :gomer:
http://home.engr.utexas.edu/patelaa/pictures/hookem.gif
:laugh: ---------------------> :gomer:
:laugh: ------------> :gomer: NoW kIN WE G0 BacK tO Offys!?!?
NoW kIN WE G0 BacK tO Offys!?!?
Only if they can find someone to badge them.
:rofl:
RacinM3
11-05-04, 07:01 PM
OC to TF-------> :laugh: :laugh: --------> :gomer: :gomer:
:laugh: :laugh: --------> :gomer:
The IRL: Saving Indy since 1994
:laugh: ------------> :gomer:
Wait'll you hit bottom, it's really gonna hurt. :rofl:
DjDrOmusic
11-05-04, 08:41 PM
BUT...BUT....Tony's vision was for an ALL AMERICAN OVAL SERIES for short trackers. I'll bet this is all part of his plan to rid those nasty Japanese engine builders from the hallowed grounds at 16th and Georgetown! :gomer: ;) :rofl:
In /. style, poster gets..
Score -1 Obvious. :D
RacinM3
11-05-04, 09:26 PM
Man, the gomers at TF are seriously confused. They're of the mindset that it's good that Toyota and Honda are going to leave, and that now the teams can go back to building their own engines .
They still don't realize what brought them the teams they now have, and that when the manufacturers go away and take the yen with them, the IRL will be left with nothing.
They are sooo stuck in 1960 it's not even funny, with absolutely no understanding of today's racing economics. :thumdown:
Oh, they're also talking about the need to get rid of current IRL management .
Excuse me now, I need to go shower to wash the TF off of me.
Rogue Leader
11-05-04, 10:01 PM
Man, the gomers at TF are seriously confused. They're of the mindset that it's good that Toyota and Honda are going to leave, and that now the teams can go back to building their own engines .
They still don't realize what brought them the teams they now have, and that when the manufacturers go away and take the yen with them, the IRL will be left with nothing.
They are sooo stuck in 1960 it's not even funny, with absolutely no understanding of today's racing economics. :thumdown:
Oh, they're also talking about the need to get rid of current IRL management .
Excuse me now, I need to go shower to wash the TF off of me.
Go back to building WHAT?????????????? When have any of these modern teams EVER built their own engines.
I need whatever crack they are smoking, it must be premium high quality stuff!
Methanolandbrats
11-05-04, 11:21 PM
[QUOTE=Rogue Leader]Go back to building WHAT?????????????? When have any of these modern teams EVER built their own engines.[QUOTE]
Imagine 33 screaming Buick Stock Blocks rounding turn 4 to take the flag in 2006. All the race motors built by craftsmen at Menard Motorwerks.
Redwing
11-06-04, 12:27 AM
:laugh: ---------------------> :gomer:
Awww shucks, that's too bad, coming as it does at a time when teams are going to be spending time and money developing road course cars for their GM and yoda powered cars.
Ozarkian
11-06-04, 03:41 AM
Man, the gomers at TF are seriously confused.
snip --
Oh, they're also talking about the need to get rid of current IRL management .
Interesting how the gomers assumed current IRL management would be able to safely navigate the same waters that gave CART management such trouble. Wonder why they didn't remember that old saying about those who don't learn from history?
All I can say is that I'm taking a particular delight in watching this happen to the organization and people who ruined what used to be my favorite race (and month, for that matter). Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch ... hope the descent is painful and the sudden deceleration at the end even more so.
chop456
11-06-04, 03:45 AM
Interesting how the gomers assumed current IRL management would be able to safely navigate the same waters that gave CART management such trouble. Wonder why they didn't remember that old saying about those who don't learn from history?
All I can say is that I'm taking a particular delight in watching this happen to the organization and people who ruined what used to be my favorite race (and month, for that matter). Couldn't happen to a nicer bunch ... hope the descent is painful and the sudden deceleration at the end even more so.
You need to post more. :D
:rofl: -----------------> :gomer:
Uh oh!! :eek:
Toyota racing chief Lee White, on hand for the Craftsman Truck race at Phoenix this weekend, indicated Toyota could not express commitment to the IRL beyond 2006, until it knows what the engine rules will be.
"We're committed for next year and the year after," White said Friday. "Beyond that, we don't know what the [IRL] rules are, so I can't really comment. I don't know what their plans are for the future. We don't know what the rules are, so I can't really comment.
"We're concerned about cost, cost vs. return, and the business model is not what was lined up for us three years ago. I'm not going to sit here and tell you there is not concern.
"Hopefully we'll be able to have discussions with them to address that. We're certainly open, and we've told them we're open, to do anything to sit down and try to help create a condition more of what we signed up for in cost vs. return."
Although IRL officials apparently have not yet begun to put the 2007 engine plans on paper, Toyota, and likely Honda, appear to be in position to help write those rules and make those drawings, with the apparent Champ Car/Cosworth transaction as a trump playing card.
Ford has announced that it intends to sell the Cosworth engine unit, which specializes in race engines. Chevrolet's in-house Indy engine program had lagged, and it finally agreed to have Cosworth create its IRL engines in 2003 and through this year.
Toyota, meanwhile, has not done particularly well in IRL this year, being outrun by Honda in most of the races. Again, I will not pretend to know all that is going on.
White, meanwhile, did not indicate Toyota has immediate plans to develop its Truck program to Cup, although most believe 2007 or so is the target date for introduction of the first offshore model into the "native" series. White indicated that Toyota has built solid relationships within NASCAR, and that the Truck program, despite some setbacks, was accomplishing its corporate aims.
He said Toyota has no plans to expand into the Busch (car) Series in 2005, although he added he would not be surprised to see an additional two or three Toyota Truck teams next year. Bill Davis, Toyota's ball-carrier in NASCAR, has hinted that Toyota might want to try the Busch Series with a NASCAR-approved model in 2006. It it not known what that model might be.
As for the future in NASCAR -- the question from the start -- White would not commit. "This is still a Truck program," he insisted. "[Busch is] too far out for next year. Sorry."
As to whether a possible pull-out from the IRL could be a signal that Toyota was ready to commit fully to NASCAR, White added: "No, those are two completely separate things."
The lemmings were always saying not to worry, T & H aren't running the league, Tony is.
Not according to this. Linkie (http://speedtv.com/articles/auto/nascar/13806/)
"We're concerned about cost, cost vs. return, and the business model is not what was lined up for us three years ago. I'm not going to sit here and tell you there is not concern.
"Hopefully we'll be able to have discussions with them to address that. We're certainly open, and we've told them we're open, to do anything to sit down and try to help create a condition more of what we signed up for in cost vs. return."
Har. Seems like just about every one has a problem with the ROI in Tonyland. :) Hopefully Honda will soon wake up from their "Kill Champ car, kill, kill, kill." zombie trance and come to their senses as well.
oddlycalm
11-06-04, 02:46 PM
Imagine 33 screaming Buick Stock Blocks rounding turn 4 to take the flag in 2006. All the race motors built by craftsmen at Menard Motorwerks. Dad to son; "That's why they call it the greatest spectacle in motor racing son..." :gomer:
oc
Skater_36
11-07-04, 09:36 AM
Har. Seems like just about every one has a problem with the ROI in Tonyland. :) Hopefully Honda will soon wake up from their "Kill Champ car, kill, kill, kill." zombie trance and come to their senses as well.
I'm wondering what the ROI is in the IRL these days. Once a manufacturer has won the I500 what's left? The IRL lost one of it's more successful races at TMS and TG's decision to go road racing is escalating costs in a series that has seen declining TV ratings and low spectator turnout. Spending money on the IRL is like building an addition to a burning house.
[QUOTE=Rogue Leader]Go back to building WHAT?????????????? When have any of these modern teams EVER built their own engines.[QUOTE]
Imagine 33 screaming Buick Stock Blocks rounding turn 4 to take the flag in 2006. All the race motors built by craftsmen at Menard Motorwerks.
C'mon M&B, at least 3 of those Buicks will drop rods on the pace lap!
:laugh:
Fearless prediction:
Realizing that Honda and Toyota have the IRL by the short hairs, Tony announces a new formula for 2007 with the intent of trying to please both the Indy traditionalists and the import tuner crowd. Yes, that's right, Drifting Roadsters. These will be front-engined skinny-tired open wheeled roadsters like the days of yore, but with a big-ass wing (for show only) out back and either Toyota or Honda power replacing the Offy. This will give the American sprint and midget car drivers a place to move up to once again. However, Tony's plan for making another American Indycar champion is foiled when Helio Castroneves proves to be a natural at swinging his rear end around, and he wins the championship in a walkover.
Or not. :D
Considering T & H are making trucks and what appears to be future inroads into NASCAR's top level which already has the Brickyard as a marquee, why would T & H stay in the irl? It makes absolutely NO business sense to market cars to the American public with a presence in the irl. So, what it amounts to is, tg killed his own league and (possibly the 500) before it even started by offering a second marquee to mfg's with the BY400.... It seems to me T & H used the irl as a backwater proving ground before entering NASCAR. tg's primary mistake is not upholding to his initial premise of getting short trackers into the irl en masse. Trying now to cobble together some form of road racing is a feeble attempt to attract us, the former CART faithful.... It's tg's last gasp.
sundaydriver2
11-07-04, 06:33 PM
Spending money on the IRL is like building an addition to a burning house.
ROTFLMAO!
Rome is burning. Dig it!
:laugh: ------------> :gomer: NoW kIN WE G0 BacK tO Offys!?!?
I betcha they can find a whole bunch of 600ci Wisconsin walking beam engines in the subbasements of the museum to give to the teams that cannot build a Menard/Buick or weld up the crankcase of a comprehensively blown Offy using a beer keg.
:laugh: --------------> :gomer:
EDwardo
11-07-04, 08:18 PM
Well, they certainly aren't stupid. It makes no sense pissing away large sums of money to lose with an engine that isn't actually a chevy anway. The proven revenue generator is cab racing with Jeff and Dale jr., and the boys. Not to mention they need to be prepared to fend off yen funded technology in a couple of years. It is clear that they know exactly what Indy means these days. Not much, as far as they are concerned.
4wheeldrifter
11-08-04, 10:21 AM
Cost of competing in the series and flat television ratings are thought to be behind Toyota's thinking.
Slow learners. :shakehead
RacinM3
11-08-04, 12:39 PM
I love how history's getting revised. A lot of people are commenting that today TG and Co. are having trouble with the same things that were causing CART such trouble and led to their demise. Bulls****! The only thing that led to CART's demise was a combination of CART owner's egos and the stupidity of TG, back in 1995/1996, thereby watering down US OW and starting the decline.
Sure, engine leases were a problem back then, but correct me if I'm wrong by saying that CART circa 1995 was at or near it's peak in terms of popularity and sponsor involvement.
Sure, engine leases were a problem back then, but correct me if I'm wrong by saying that CART circa 1995 was at or near it's peak in terms of popularity and sponsor involvement.
It wasn't the leases, it was the fact that the team owners became addicted to manufacturer money. Things were great in 1995. Losing the Indy 500 made teams more reliant than ever on the manufacturers to provide support and sponsorship. From there it became the same house of cards that Tony faces now. Because he doesn't have The Indy 500 anymore, either.
What a lot of people are forgetting is the state of the earl wasn't too rosey by mid year 2002. Had T & H either stayed in Cart in '03 or just gave up on OW racing in this country completely, the earl would've had problems scraping together a dozen cars for the start of the 03 season. Why either of those 2 companies thought their presence in the league was going to stop an already spiraling death spin into oblivion is beyond me. By '02, even with the cheaper costs of the chebbie engines driven by the rebuilders, earl team owners still couldn't justify the ROI to sponsors and teams were slowly fading away.
Andrew Longman
11-08-04, 01:45 PM
I can't imagine why they are "committed" to even one more day, let alone 05, 06 or 07. It made no sense in 02. It makes no sense today. Its not getting better.
Contracts, schmontracts. That's what lawyers are for. It's got to be better than continuing to pour money into the sport.
jonovision_man
11-08-04, 02:01 PM
I can't imagine why they are "committed" to even one more day, let alone 05, 06 or 07. It made no sense in 02. It makes no sense today. Its not getting better.
Contracts, schmontracts. That's what lawyers are for. It's got to be better than continuing to pour money into the sport.
If I were Toyota/Honda, I'd use my participation as a carrot to CCWS and a stick to the IRL, and force a merge or leave. Then and only then could the investment they've made pay off.
jono
RacinM3
11-08-04, 03:00 PM
If I were Toyota/Honda, I'd use my participation as a carrot to CCWS and a stick to the IRL, and force a merge or leave. Then and only then could the investment they've made pay off.
Hell, if I were Toyota/Honda, I'd get off this sinking rat's nest now, like Andrew Longman said, and let the lawyers fight out the settlement.
You're saying they could make the investment pay off, but what, only after the long, drawn out process of rebuilding the sport and it's fan base? Sorry, but I don't think there's a person in this world who'd be willing to invest that long without a guaranteed payoff.
If Honda and Toyota could field NASCAR teams tomorrow, they would, and OW would be a distant corporate memory for them.
jonovision_man
11-08-04, 03:08 PM
Hell, if I were Toyota/Honda, I'd get off this sinking rat's nest now, like Andrew Longman said, and let the lawyers fight out the settlement.
You're saying they could make the investment pay off, but what, only after the long, drawn out process of rebuilding the sport and it's fan base? Sorry, but I don't think there's a person in this world who'd be willing to invest that long without a guaranteed payoff.
.
I try to be a bit more optimistic about the future of OW... :) Considering the relatively low cost of CC or IRL, I don't think it's unreasonable to expect a return if the two ever became one series. As two series, though, it's hopeless.
If Honda and Toyota could field NASCAR teams tomorrow, they would, and OW would be a distant corporate memory for them.
Possibly.
jono
oddlycalm
11-08-04, 04:03 PM
Lack of of a long term strategy and plan will kill a healthy business let alone one that's not. The eventual ban on tobacco advertising has been handwriting on the wall for well over a decade, yet the only US series that had a plan to diversify it's sponsor base was NASCAR.
TG's brainfart never took the fallout from the loss of tobacco money into consideration and CART never had a plan regarding anything outside how to put $ millions of the public shareholder's money in the pocket of a few team owners as efficiently as possible. That means that the only big money remaining on the OW racing table is the auto companies. Take that away and the EARL teams it supports are gone in the blink of an eye or are fielding one car maximum.
By contrast CCWS gets much less support from Ford, and it's teams none at all. While it finds itself in humble circumstances, it has survived season #1 and has put in a credible showing. With a real TV package there is every reason to expect a stronger season #2. The attendence figures, along with low enough costs, should allow the teams to look serious potential sponsors in the eye and tell them a story that works for them financially, something the EARL can't do. CCWS has a post-tobacco business model that can work without huge auto company cash infusions. The economy has slowly recovered and the climate exists where they should be able to grow this series at a steady pace.
IMO, the eventual absence of the EARL doesn't do much of anything for CCWS. No significant audience exists, and the small hardcore group of fans won't be fans of CCWS regardless. I don't see champ cars ever going back to the IMS unless someone other than TG was to assume control of the speedway. The only reason to hope for the demise of the EARL is to see TG and the turncoat team owners crushed, but that works for me. :D :thumbup:
oc
Andrew Longman
11-08-04, 04:17 PM
OC, I see CCWS going back to Indy even if TG still runs the joint, but not so long as the IRL is around and the I500 is an IRL event.
If the IRL collapses TG will need an event to run in May. Unless he wants to change that to a NASCAR event, which is possible, I'd guess he'd call CCWS. And I'd guess CCWS sponsors would find running the 500 a big plus (even now).
You are dead on that a lack of planning for life without Tobacco $ hurt. (Remember that Penske having to take Marlboro off his cars at Indy was a tipping event that led him to the IRL). NASCAR is figuring out how to do it. NHRA is doing it (though prize money complaints may signal that more needs to be done). CCWS is doing it.
IRL needs H/T money and Bernie needs governments of smoke friendly developing nations to subsidize his circus.
Wheel-Nut
11-08-04, 06:25 PM
Eddie Cheever is going to supply the remaining 4 teams, the ones without Honda Yen, for the 2006 season with the Infinity engines he managed to salvage from the wrecks Tomas had the first year!!
Oh yeah
:laugh: ----------> :gomer:
More from Lee White:
http://sports.yahoo.com/irl/news?slug=indyracingftr&prov=st&type=lgns
"Chevrolet's departure is very bad for the series," Toyota Motorsports manager Lee White said. "You have open-wheel racing without an American manufacturer and the Indianapolis 500 without an American manufacturer. That's a pretty serious deal."
"When we entered the series, we spent two years discussing engine rules, distribution rules, buying, leasing and we signed up for the same program as Chevrolet," White said. "Our level of support is approaching that of what it was in CART. I would say our enthusiasm doesn't match that what it was in CART but the cost is and that is a huge worry for the company."
"It's a difficult decision because we support Tony George and we support the series," White said. "Unfortunately, the series business model isn't what it was two years ago. We went to the IRL and embraced the Chevrolet business model. We had people signed up as engine builders, we were prepared to sell engines but no one wanted to buy them. The direction we are going in now is very troubling."
"We entered the series under the idea that you could have one or two works teams that were allowed with our agreement in the IRL," White said. "Now, there isn't a team that comes and talks to us unless they want everything for free and cash. It has absolutely turned into a 100 percent manufacturer head-to-head combat and that is not a comfortable position for us.
"I can't imagine the series is very comfortable with that."
"The problem is there is no mechanism within the structure of the organization to contain that," White said. "It makes it a very difficult problem unless you have full grandstands and really good TV ratings so that you can justify that type of expenditure."
"The first thing we have to do is get some people together to talk about it and it hasn't happened yet," White said of the IRL. "We haven't decided to leave. We are committed to the program through 2006. I'd hate to say we are in any position to dictate, but certainly I'm extremely concerned for the series.
"We could have left and everything would have been fine. Honda could have left and it would have been fine. But the fact Chevrolet left is a very, very serious problem for the IRL. The IRL doesn't have the strength, in-house, to protect the engine manufacturers' from themselves."
What does the IRL have to say about all this?
"Despite a tough economy, the IndyCar Series enters 2005 in its strongest position yet in terms of its overall economic health, with sponsorship up, attendance showing growth, team sponsorships the highest in series history and the strongest driver talent line-up in series history," said Fred Nation, the executive vice president of communications for the Indianapolis Motor Speedway Corporation and the IRL.
sundaydriver2
11-08-04, 06:32 PM
Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!
This gets better by the day. :thumbup:
What is the Idiotgrandson going to do when he has nobody suppling engines for the Retirement League? :laugh:
I thought this was the most interesting quote: Our level of support is approaching that of what it was in CART. I would say our enthusiasm doesn't match that what it was in CART but the cost is and that is a huge worry for the company.
I thought this was the most interesting quote: Our level of support is approaching that of what it was in CART. I would say our enthusiasm doesn't match that what it was in CART but the cost is and that is a huge worry for the company.
I was trying to figure out whether or not that is actually a slap in the face of the IRL. I read it as "We were enjoying CART more than IRL"
Dr. Corkski
11-08-04, 08:42 PM
:laugh: ----------------------> :gomer:
Hope Toney still has his hammer.
sundaydriver2
11-08-04, 08:45 PM
Kevin Kalkhoven stole FTG's hammer.
"Rome is buring"
I was trying to figure out whether or not that is actually a slap in the face of the IRL. I read it as "We were enjoying CART more than IRL"
Thats kind of how I read it too. I think he was saying, "We liked CART more, but this was cheaper. Now not only is this not as good, it is also just as expensive."
Why either of those 2 companies thought their presence in the league was going to stop an already spiraling death spin into oblivion is beyond me.
Point of order, Mr. Chairman: Is it a spiraling death spin, or more of a flush?
Point of order, Mr. Chairman: Is it a spiraling death spin, or more of a flush?
I'm leaning towards flush, as that's what happens to such material.
Thats kind of how I read it too. I think he was saying, "We liked CART more, but this was cheaper. Now not only is this not as good, it is also just as expensive."
If may correct you, that should read "We liked CART more, but we thought this would be cheaper."
The rest is correct.
Source (http://tinyurl.com/4gxw6)
NASCAR executives are reported to have persuaded Toyota not to withdraw from the Indy Racing League, as Toyota had planned for a year or so down the road. That NASCAR move is because so many International Speedway Corp. tracks need IRL races, and because NASCAR's truck series also plays on those IRL weekends.
So Toyota, it is reported, is investing $50 million in a new Indy-car engine.
Toyota is expected to join NASCAR's Nextel Cup series in a year or two.
And the Honda-to-NASCAR issue was discussed over the weekend, too. Honda is reported to be building a truck which could compete on the NASCAR tour, and stock-car engine builders are sweating out how powerful the Honda-Ilmor engine operation might be with a pushrod V-8.
Racewriter
11-09-04, 09:58 AM
FYI: ISC is one of the big movers behind the USAC Silver Crown roadster project.
Jervis Tetch 1
11-09-04, 10:19 AM
:laugh: -------------------------> :gomer:
TG will still insist there's light at the end of the tunnell....I believe it's been an oncoming freight train since 1996.
FTG you dumbasssonofabeetch
sundaydriver2
11-09-04, 11:35 AM
Originally posted by TedN:
NASCAR executives are reported to have persuaded Toyota not to withdraw from the Indy Racing League, as Toyota had planned for a year or so down the road. That NASCAR move is because so many International Speedway Corp. tracks need IRL races, and because NASCAR's truck series also plays on those IRL weekends.
Complete BS.
That NASCAR move is because so many International Speedway Corp. tracks need IRL races, and because NASCAR's truck series also plays on those IRL weekends.
:laugh: Here's the part I believe about that whole sentence.
Nascar truck series.
The rest is pure comedy.
Rogue Leader
11-10-04, 12:22 AM
That NASCAR move is because so many International Speedway Corp. tracks need IRL races, and because NASCAR's truck series also plays on those IRL weekends.
:laugh: Here's the part I believe about that whole sentence.
Nascar truck series.
The rest is pure comedy.
the sad part is is that people only come for those truck races... and the stands are empty then too!
scanman
11-10-04, 10:08 AM
Source (http://tinyurl.com/4gxw6)
Norris, is that you ???
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