View Full Version : No More Ride Buyers!
Wheel-Nut
11-24-04, 10:37 AM
So sayeth Kevin Kalkoven!
SpeedTV Link (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/14093/)
First measure to turn things around: no more ride-buyers. Next year’s Jimmy Vasser teammate will be decided solely on the basis of driving skills.
Driving skills, what a thought.
Forza Lancia
11-24-04, 11:57 AM
The article also makes it sound as though Bjorn Wirdheim has the inside track for the team's (non-ride-buying) second car. Bjorn would be a good addition to the series. I think that would make it four F3000 champions in ChampCar next year!
Hmmm...Schumi was more or less a ride buyer in his first race. I think buying rides, to some degree, is a fact of life. I think what has to be addressed is the pedigree of the driver.
Hmmm...Schumi was more or less a ride buyer in his first race. I think buying rides, to some degree, is a fact of life. I think what has to be addressed is the pedigree of the driver.
Paul Tracy bought that Coyne ride at Long Beach and showed his stuff.
No ride buyers, but only until we need more sponsorship money.
pinniped
11-24-04, 03:01 PM
So if Pedro Diniz wanted to run himself in a self-financed third car, they would turn it down then, right? (hey, its the holidays, I felt an annoying hypothetical might be in order)
Paul Tracy bought that Coyne ride at Long Beach and showed his stuff.
...as did Pruett.......damn American ride buyer...
RacinM3
11-24-04, 03:21 PM
Ride buying to show your talent is not the same as continual ride buying to try to get chicks.
Paul Tracy bought that Coyne ride at Long Beach and showed his stuff.
His mom and dad bought it for him. (My folks wouldn't even buy me a used car.)
I'm looking forward to more competition for Newman Haas and Forsythe next year.
Winston Wolfe
11-24-04, 04:42 PM
Ride buying to show your talent is not the same as continual ride buying to try to get chicks.
WERD....
Dood, that has Fabio written all over it ! :rofl:
Sean O'Gorman
11-24-04, 06:18 PM
:thumbup:
Now give your development series' at lease some shred of credibility and hire Dalziel already!
Rogue Leader
11-24-04, 06:58 PM
Ride-buying is a fact of life in everything but Stock Cars. If you want to go anywhere you better have some cash behind you or youre DOA.
Sean O'Gorman
11-24-04, 07:16 PM
Ride-buying is a fact of life in everything but Stock Cars. If you want to go anywhere you better have some cash behind you or youre DOA.
Stock cars aren't excluded from that list. Ashton Lewis is a perfect example. All that mushy father-son bonding crap they talk about during NASCAR telecasts with virtually every driver makes me want to vomit.
Why fathers blow thousands or even millions of dollars to get their sons into auto racing I'll never figure out. If I had a kid (which I wont :D ) I wouldn't spend a dime on them to race, I'd be using it to race myself!
Maybe it was just the way I was raised. I'm lucky my parents even let me keep my racing tires in the garage! :)
Rogue Leader
11-24-04, 07:21 PM
Stock cars aren't excluded from that list. Ashton Lewis is a perfect example. All that mushy father-son bonding crap they talk about during NASCAR telecasts with virtually every driver makes me want to vomit.
Why fathers blow thousands or even millions of dollars to get their sons into auto racing I'll never figure out. If I had a kid (which I won't :D ) I wouldn't spend a dime on them to race, I'd be using it to race myself!
Maybe it was just the way I was raised. I'm lucky my parents even let me keep my racing tires in the garage! :)
I dunno but I wish my mom and dad bought me a ride! Im funding this stuff myself and its real hard getting a sponsor and the cash cow is tanking :(
"No More Ride Buyers!"
"So sayeth Kevin Kalkoven!'
Does that include owners whos only financial stake in the team is not accepting a drivers salary?? ;)
Stock cars aren't excluded from that list. Ashton Lewis is a perfect example. All that mushy father-son bonding crap they talk about during NASCAR telecasts with virtually every driver makes me want to vomit.
Why fathers blow thousands or even millions of dollars to get their sons into auto racing I'll never figure out. If I had a kid (which I wont :D ) I wouldn't spend a dime on them to race, I'd be using it to race myself!
Maybe it was just the way I was raised. I'm lucky my parents even let me keep my racing tires in the garage! :)
Aren't the Burton's included in the list? Seems to me I've heard the family comes from money and that's how the early days were supported.
Cmndr Keen
11-24-04, 09:32 PM
Ride buying to show your talent is not the same as continual ride buying to try to get chicks.
That's the deal right there. Ride buying, it seems to me, is a broad term and covers alot of ground. I guess maybe you can break it down into two categories and go from there. Ride buying with talent and ride buying without it. Lots of names come to mind in each.
Mike Kellner
11-25-04, 04:35 AM
What about some time limit on backmarkers? F1 used to have a thing called a "Graded Driver". I forget the exact details, but you needed to score some minimum number of points in the last two season to keep racing. Could some statistical score be kept and used to eliminate total wankers and the over the hill brigade? The two year thing in F1 was interesting, because it covered you for a bad year.
This is just an example, and I would love to hear others. You have to score 100 points in the last 20 races or you are out. 5 points a race is averaging 16th place. If you have an average of less than 5 points in the last 20 races you almost have to be a rolling chicane.
That way, ride buyers get a chance to show they are the next Fangio, but it is not an endless chance. Most good drivers show promise early.
mk
chop456
11-25-04, 06:51 AM
I like it.
Railbird
11-25-04, 08:13 AM
How long was Jouradin around before we quit laughing at him?
Of course if Mike's system was in place he might have spent his formative years in a ladder ride rather than portraying a speed bump at the top.
Sean O'Gorman
11-25-04, 12:30 PM
I didn't realize that Champ Car was in a position to boot funded drivers...
devilmaster
11-25-04, 12:53 PM
I didn't realize that Champ Car was in a position to boot funded drivers...
It didn't say all of Champcar, sean. The article means PKV racing, not Champcar as a whole.
Steve
Mike Kellner
11-25-04, 12:55 PM
"Of course if Mike's system was in place he might have spent his formative years in a ladder ride rather than portraying a speed bump at the top."
It would help if there was a ladder series that was cheap to run, and got on TV.
Looking at this year's final points, 17 drivers scored more than 70 points in a 14 race season. The point system changed, so it would be a lot of work to figure, but how may superstars would we miss? The best would be more likely to wait until they are ready, so as to not blow their chance. A useful ladder series would help there.
Another thought, if the mobile chicanes are funding a team so they can meet a better class of race track babe, why not turn these wealthy no talents into team owners? Use the money to put a kid with talent behind the wheel. Enough women are attracted to money that team ownership will work as a babe magnet, and they wouldn't have to worry about ending up like Jason Priestly.
mk
Maybe if the monicker was changed from "ride buyer" to the more stately term "gentleman racer" ;) ....you know kind of harkens back to an earlier era of motorsports.... After all "we" are the wine and cheese set. ;)
Mike Kellner
11-25-04, 01:06 PM
How about, "Gentleman Team Owner?" See above.
mk
Sean O'Gorman
11-25-04, 01:14 PM
It didn't say all of Champcar, sean. The article means PKV racing, not Champcar as a whole.
Steve
I was talking about Kellner's idea to have a time frame for a driver to become competitive. It isn't feasible for Champ Car, and with 10-14 car grids in Atlantics, Formula BMW, and Trans-Am, it isn't feasible there either.
How about, "Gentleman Team Owner?" See above.
mk
Too many lying cutthroat piranhas I fear. I think Paul Newmann is the only true gentleman left in motorsports.
Sean O'Gorman
11-25-04, 03:11 PM
Why would you want to be a team owner when you can drive? Ooh, wow, sitting on a pit box watching a someone else drive your 750 hp missle. How exciting. Besides, you think that someone like, say Philippe's dad would drop millions a year for his son to be on the sidelines?
Mike Kellner
11-25-04, 03:50 PM
So, Sean, I take it you are in the "Bring on more no talent ride buyers, I love 'em." category? Which part do you like best;when they interfere with races for the lead, when they take out leaders due to general ineptitude, or is it all the chances to work on the yard during yellows, while they sweep up their cars?
mk
Sean O'Gorman
11-25-04, 04:40 PM
So, Sean, I take it you are in the "Bring on more no talent ride buyers, I love 'em." category? Which part do you like best;when they interfere with races for the lead, when they take out leaders due to general ineptitude, or is it all the chances to work on the yard during yellows, while they sweep up their cars?
mk
I'm in the "18 cars is better than 15 cars if those extra 3 aren't going to be filled by other drivers anyway" category. Of course, it is hard to find sponsors to cover the bill to put deserving drivers in the cars when you are shifting your schedule to parking lots and races in countries with little potential to expand the relevent fan base...
Mike Kellner
11-25-04, 04:42 PM
"I'm in the "18 cars is better than 15 cars if those extra 3 aren't going to be filled by other drivers anyway" category. Of course, it is hard to find sponsors to cover the bill to put deserving drivers in the cars when you are shifting your schedule to parking lots and races in countries with little potential to expand the relevent fan base..."
Do you have anything positive to add to the conversation?
mk
I've been away for a while and perhaps I missed the news articles about all the sponsorship money Kevin and the guys has secured for next year.
Please enlighten me, for ride buying has always (always!) been a factor in fielding cars and keeping the various series alive.
Did someone change the 'facts of life' here while I was out of the country?
No more ride buyers? OK, then he's going to have to figure out a way to get sponsors to pay the teams to run the cars. You know, if a team gets a sponsor it's legit, but if a driver does the leg work and finds the sponsor then it's buying a ride? :rolleyes: The funny thing is, some drivers who consider themselves stars, and don't want to race champcars because they claim 90% of the rides are paid rides, should remember how did even made it to champcars in the first place.....
At the end of the day, speed cost money and someone has to come up with it, or they'll be no cars on the grid. One can't expect the likes of Jerry Forsythe to keep paying for this stuff out of his own pocket. Therefore, that is why he is testing drivers with sponsors like Enge and Figge. You can't blame the guy, can you?
jonovision_man
11-26-04, 08:50 AM
At the end of the day, speed cost money and someone has to come up with it, or they'll be no cars on the grid. One can't expect the likes of Jerry Forsythe to keep paying for this stuff out of his own pocket. Therefore, that is why he is testing drivers with sponsors like Enge and Figge. You can't blame the guy, can you?
Shouldn't we draw some line between drivers with sponsors and ride-buyers? Enge was almost an F3000 champion (other than the reefer madness! :)), he has sponsors because he's a good driver.
When I think of ride buyers, I think of guys like Phillipe, where it's not sponsors who believe in the drivers ability but mommies or daddies who are footing the bill...
Mike Kellner
11-26-04, 03:43 PM
"Shouldn't we draw some line between drivers with sponsors and ride-buyers?"
Yes. The object is not to get rid of funded drivers, but to be rid of funded low talent drivers. This is why the idea of a minimum perrformance standard is a good one. I have continued to think about it. How about requiring that you average 5 points per race in one of the last two seasons? This season 17 drivers met that standard. It gives the ride buyers a chance, but also clears the deadwood out of the way.
In the end, what ChampCar needs is to develop a cadre of good drivers who want to stay and make it a career. Good drivers who view CC as the final ladder rung below F1 are just as bad as Daddy Warbucks no talent kid. Giving the hook to perrennial backmarkers is just one part of the equeation, but it is one that needs to happen.
mk
I think it was stupid for champcar to allow a 17 year-old barber dodge mid-packer to move up to champcars (nelson phillipe), but I seem to recall a certain 19 year-old mexican driver in 96 that was in the same boat as phillipe (limited racing resume, a lot of money). Now, there is another post going on right now talking about how unfair it is that this mexican driver doesn't have a ride. 8 years after being a no-named ride buyer with money, the guy is a star? Who's to say that nelson phillipe won't be a star by the time he's 25?
I would like to see more of this in top level racing just like any other major league sport. Players can't buy into other pro sports, they have to be the best and earn it. I think it would make auto racing and Champ Car a little more legit if they could market a truly talented line up throughout the grid.
It should be up to the owners to pay and find sponsorship for the teams and let the drivers drive. Most of them are previous businessmen that got into this to have fun and blow their money on it.
I also question why certain sponsors go with bad or inexperienced drivers and not go directly to a team so they can go for the best driver available to get them the most exposure.
Rogue Leader
11-26-04, 07:53 PM
I would like to see more of this in top level racing just like any other major league sport. Players can't buy into other pro sports, they have to be the best and earn it. I think it would make auto racing and Champ Car a little more legit if they could market a truly talented line up throughout the grid.
It should be up to the owners to pay and find sponsorship for the teams and let the drivers drive. Most of them are previous businessmen that got into this to have fun and blow their money on it.
I also question why certain sponsors go with bad or inexperienced drivers and not go directly to a team so they can go for the best driver available to get them the most exposure.
I hate to say it but its the nature of the sport. Everyone wants to be a race car driver and theres a lot of talented drivers out there, and less teams than there are drivers. The difference between racing and any other sport is theres less people (drivers) involved in an event or series (just due to sheer size) and it costs a heck of a lot more money to do. If the team has someone who can bring money and get around the track without killing themself, these days unfortunately its good enough. Gives exposure to the sponsor and allows the team to continue, to them any racing is better than no racing.
I would have had a Formula Renault ride this past year if I had money. I can run circles around the kid they put in the car, but his grandpa has money, me, I have my good looks and a bunch of companies that said no.
However I do agree with the whole merit system to stay, theres plenty of faster ride buyers to prevent a Moving Chicane from killing someone.
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