Just Wondering...

[trish]

I was just wondering if I was the only one who is sick of Champ Car just being a stop on the road to something "better". If I'm the only one who wants Champ Car filled with talented drivers who dreamed of being there. If I'm the only one who wants drivers who see Champ Car as their final destination, not just a waiting station until something "better" comes up. Does anyone think that drivers who hold this attitude have hurt the series? That a Champ Car ride isn't seen as making it to the big time, but settling for what's left?

Discuss. :cool: And please, no flaming. Thank you. :)

[Kiwifan]

I agree with you. Other than from a historical point can someone tell me what makes F1 so much "better"? It's not for the racing, that's for sure. ;) No flames for me either 'cause I do watch and enjoy F1, BUT, I like Champ Cars better!

Good post trish.

Rusty.

[Sean O'Gorman]

It doesn't really bother me. What does bother me is the fact that there is no way for a talented driver to make from karts to Champ Car without needing to provide full funding every step of the way. I know it is the nature of the sport, but it still disappoints me.

This is why I complain and criticize Champ Car so much. I think it would do wonders for the series to build a grassroots fan base at the karting and lower formula level, and focus exclusively on their North American base so that there are sponsors interested in funding cars on every step of the ladder, into Champ Cars themselves. It doesn't even matter where the drivers come from. In fact, if the lower levels attract drivers from Europe, Latin America, Asia, Australia, etc., then that is even better!

I doubt anything like this could ever happen, but I'm sure it isn't impossible. It'll just take open-minded, forward thinking leaders, something that the road racing community as a whole seems to lack. :shakehead

[Jervis Tetch 1]

It used to be that Champ Car was the stop.

[cart7]

Unfortunately, right about the time Cart was starting to gel and become even bigger than it was, Toney formed the earl and F'd the whole thing up.

[Ruben Barrios]

Budgetwise it will always be just a stop!,, That's just the way it is. Money talks.

[pineapple]

I think it would do wonders for the series to build a grassroots fan base at the karting and lower formula level, and focus exclusively on their North American base so that there are sponsors interested in funding cars on every step of the ladder, into Champ Cars themselves. It doesn't even matter where the drivers come from. In fact, if the lower levels attract drivers from Europe, Latin America, Asia, Australia, etc., then that is even better!


An exclusive North American focus would automatically exclude the rest of the world on which Champ Cars depends for its survival and continuity.

It's a contradiction to then say that drivers from other countries would help the development of this elusive and practically invisible North American grassroots fan base. It's almost naive to think that the Mexican (and other "foreign") sponsors would fund this parochial vision of a racing series - unless there really are Mexican, Canadian, etc., versions of welfare for poor American racecar drivers.

[Railbird]

In the mid nineties you had world champs coming and going on their way up or down, that was about as good as it got. The up and comers had a real spring board and the aging vets had a real alternative.

But

F1 was, is and always will be, the pinnacle.

[chop456]

Those who see ChampCar as the end point are those without the money or talent for F1. If they don't concentrate on getting and keeping some real road courses, they're not even going to qualify as a legitimate rung above F3000.

And as for you, Jervis.... ;) Champcar was THE stop for 3 guys. 2 have done well and the other is an idiot. (Zanardi and the other reverse ladder guys don't count - Fittipaldi(s), Mario, Mansell, Johansson, Blundell, Lehto, Wilson, Cheever :gomer: .....)

[trish]

In the mid nineties you had world champs coming and going on their way up or down, that was about as good as it got. The up and comers had a real spring board and the aging vets had a real alternative.

But

F1 was, is and always will be, the pinnacle.
Not for this fan it isn't. Not for many NASCAR fans it isn't. Not for many Americans period it isn't.

[mueber]

Formula One is the pinnacle. That’s the way it is. More participants want to go there because more participants are aware of the great big world than where in the “glory days” of American auto racing. I’m just grateful that, thanks to Champ Car, real racing has not perished from at least one racetrack within driving distance of my home. Although I agree that Champ Car ain’t what she used to be, I am hopeful that this is a temporary situation. The CART of years ago was great, but that success was bound to make somebody jealous, and it did.

If the new principals can stabilize the series, the development of “home grown” participants who see Champ Car as a destination becomes possible, but, for the time being, it is too much to ask of Forsythe and Kalkhoven to dump additional millions into rides for drivers who, frankly, don’t have a following just because they are products of the ladder system or are from the United States.

[trish]

Formula One is the pinnacle. That’s the way it is. More participants want to go there because more participants are aware of the great big world than where in the “glory days” of American auto racing. I’m just grateful that, thanks to Champ Car, real racing has not perished from at least one racetrack within driving distance of my home. Although I agree that Champ Car ain’t what she used to be, I am hopeful that this is a temporary situation. The CART of years ago was great, but that success was bound to make somebody jealous, and it did.

If the new principals can stabilize the series, the development of “home grown” participants who see Champ Car as a destination becomes possible, but, for the time being, it is too much to ask of Forsythe and Kalkhoven to dump additional millions into rides for drivers who, frankly, don’t have a following just because they are products of the ladder system or are from the United States.Fine. Let's see how far the Lavins and Speraficos of the world take them in this crucial rebuilding period. God knows they have a huge fan following.

[Clown]

The thing that ****s me is the Australian broadcaster partner.
I swear to god everytime they say "Champ Car", they follow it by "although its not quite the series it used to be" :flame:

(Champ Car is on the same network as the V8 SuperTaxi's, so putting down Champ Car is all promo work for the SuperTaxi's :rolleyes: :shills: )

[Turn7]

My thoughts on the funding issue for a person wanting to progress from Karts to Champ Car.

Why is it Champ Cars fault that a driver has to provide funding? The team owners are the ones that should be providing the marketing data and resources to drum up the needed funding and the drivers need to be providing the shoe leather to make those deals happen in my opinion. Look at the 1000 pound gorilla, Nascar. The top drivers are salaried by lucrative sponsorship but, they race 43 weeks, test almost as much, sleep on the road or in the plane between publicity stunts and sponsor appearences. What I am getting at is that they WORK for the sponsorship money that they get. Many carry the sponsorship with them from team to team. If Dale Jr. left DEI and went to any other team or started his own team do you think Budweiser would go with him or say see you later we are sticking with the team?

Just like a stock broker has to build a portfolio of clients to be successful, a driver must bring that same sort of basic finacial funding with them if they want to play. Craftsmen and technicians provide their own tools, white collar workers pay for college.

If I decided that I wanted to be a professional fishing guide because that is what I love to do, should I expect somebody to set me up sweet and not have to provide any sponsorship or funding? I think not.

Champ Car needs to work on one deficiancy, marketing the series via TV. They have series sponsors to help with the costs of running the company. Now they need to work on a way to build brand identity that will enable them to get paid to be on the tube. Thus allowing them to increase event purses and do some revenue sharing. If and when that happens, you will see some of the pressure lifted from drivers to provide their own sponsorship.

[Sean O'Gorman]

My thoughts on the funding issue for a person wanting to progress from Karts to Champ Car.

Why is it Champ Cars fault that a driver has to provide funding? The team owners are the ones that should be providing the marketing data and resources to drum up the needed funding and the drivers need to be providing the shoe leather to make those deals happen in my opinion. Look at the 1000 pound gorilla, Nascar. The top drivers are salaried by lucrative sponsorship but, they race 43 weeks, test almost as much, sleep on the road or in the plane between publicity stunts and sponsor appearences. What I am getting at is that they WORK for the sponsorship money that they get. Many carry the sponsorship with them from team to team. If Dale Jr. left DEI and went to any other team or started his own team do you think Budweiser would go with him or say see you later we are sticking with the team?

Just like a stock broker has to build a portfolio of clients to be successful, a driver must bring that same sort of basic finacial funding with them if they want to play. Craftsmen and technicians provide their own tools, white collar workers pay for college.

If I decided that I wanted to be a professional fishing guide because that is what I love to do, should I expect somebody to set me up sweet and not have to provide any sponsorship or funding? I think not.

Champ Car needs to work on one deficiancy, marketing the series via TV. They have series sponsors to help with the costs of running the company. Now they need to work on a way to build brand identity that will enable them to get paid to be on the tube. Thus allowing them to increase event purses and do some revenue sharing. If and when that happens, you will see some of the pressure lifted from drivers to provide their own sponsorship.

Good points, T7, but I think that when it comes to making the series appealing, everyone involved should play a part. A team can try all the want to get sponsors, but if Champ Car's direction doesn't do anything to make a sponsor joining the series an appealing idea, it'll never get anywhere. Likewise, Champ Car could fix everything in the series but it still wouldn't make any difference if they had nothing but greedy team owners who'd take funded drivers anyway (not saying this would be the case, but who knows?).

I'm not necessarily saying that things should be set up so that everyone gets a "free ride" to the top if they are good enough, but there should at least be enough effort made so that talented drivers can reasonably obtain funding from sources other than Dad's Bank Account.

[Jervis Tetch 1]

And as for you, Jervis.... ;) Champcar was THE stop for 3 guys. 2 have done well and the other is an idiot. (Zanardi and the other reverse ladder guys don't count - Fittipaldi(s), Mario, Mansell, Johansson, Blundell, Lehto, Wilson, Cheever :gomer: .....)Chop, I meant the stop in the U.S. Perhaps I should have included that.

BTW, who's the idiot? Just curious because we may differ on who it was.

[cart7]

My thoughts on the funding issue for a person wanting to progress from Karts to Champ Car.

Why is it Champ Cars fault that a driver has to provide funding? The team owners are the ones that should be providing the marketing data and resources to drum up the needed funding and the drivers need to be providing the shoe leather to make those deals happen in my opinion. Look at the 1000 pound gorilla, Nascar. The top drivers are salaried by lucrative sponsorship but, they race 43 weeks, test almost as much, sleep on the road or in the plane between publicity stunts and sponsor appearences. What I am getting at is that they WORK for the sponsorship money that they get. Many carry the sponsorship with them from team to team. If Dale Jr. left DEI and went to any other team or started his own team do you think Budweiser would go with him or say see you later we are sticking with the team?

Just like a stock broker has to build a portfolio of clients to be successful, a driver must bring that same sort of basic finacial funding with them if they want to play. Craftsmen and technicians provide their own tools, white collar workers pay for college.

If I decided that I wanted to be a professional fishing guide because that is what I love to do, should I expect somebody to set me up sweet and not have to provide any sponsorship or funding? I think not.

Champ Car needs to work on one deficiancy, marketing the series via TV. They have series sponsors to help with the costs of running the company. Now they need to work on a way to build brand identity that will enable them to get paid to be on the tube. Thus allowing them to increase event purses and do some revenue sharing. If and when that happens, you will see some of the pressure lifted from drivers to provide their own sponsorship.


Some good points but I bring issue with the Bass fishing analogy. If you decided to start fishing the Bass Tourney circuit or become a guide it's probably because you had reached a certain level of success that brought attention to you amoungst the fishing industry that caused them to want to sponsor you. Granted, in the beginning it may be nothing more than free lures, rods, a deeply discounted boat, payment of entry fees, etc. but the odds are you won't make squat in the way of a salary from them, you'll have to rely on winnings to make a living unless you have a rich relative or spouse working back at home because fishing tournaments and guiding don't pay much.

That's the problem, the scale of the sponsorship required is enormous. It's bad enough when the CCWS has such a low profile that they can barely get someone to just flit the bills for the series itself but now you're asking competant drivers like RHR or AJ to somehow be able to talk a corporation(s) into financing their ride in CCWS to the tune of Millions $$. That's a pretty steep obstacle when you consider OW racing in this country has fallen off the map.

[Turn7]

I don't think the team owners are asking the drivers to foot the bill for the team. It that were the case, why would a driver go to a team in the first place? They would just buy their own car, hire their own personnel and be their own boss. All that is being asked of them is to provide some sponsorship to assist in the team.

Nobody is forcing them to drive for a living. I think that everyone is required to do something at work that they really don't think should be part of their duties but, you got to do it if you want to work. I am an engineer, I hate financial stuff, I am not an accountant but, I still have to go to budget meetings, plan for expenditures and other such stuff that isn't what an engineer should be doing. It is a part of the job. If I wanted to drive for a living and that was the requirement, then that is what has to be done.

It isn't as if there is a shortage of folks that would line up to be a race driver. It is a privilege to drive, that privilege now has a price.

[G.]

I've heard estimates that the Ferrari team's budget is around $100 million dollars (many here can confirm or refute this number). What's it take for a Champ Car to be competitive? Eight mil?

This should answer your question, Trish.

Feel free to correct my numbers. :)

[Clown]

^ 100 mil? More like 300 mil :eek:

[Andrew Longman]

I'm sure I am not in the mainstream on this question, but I am not terribly bothered if Champcar is not THE stop for these drivers.

I am impressed by the cars and the car/driver interface and by the technology and economics required to pull it off.

The cars are beautiful to look at. They are technological marvels. They are wicked fast and assault the senses. And they are damn hard to drive, let alone well.

To see anyone drive them is stunning. Standing at the braking point at T5 at RA and imagining the stamina, reflexes, g-loading going on as they bang down 4 and 5 gears tells you the specialness of the drivers of these cars. Any driver. And the differences between the best and worst really come to light.

Add to that the money required to simply put a wheel on the track as a team and that a driver must invest or find, starting in karts to get to the point of even being even the 18th guy on the grid and its even more impressive.

Sure, to see a guy like Tracy, Vassar or Andretti or others do it year after year and at a high level is even more impressive. And to see what it takes to stay in the front of the field shows it is geometrically harder.

But in a way, during these hard times, my appreciation for just how hard this sport is has grown. When there are fans and sponsors washing money around the sport it all seem a little easier for the teams and drivers.

So I enjoy Champcar for what it is. I always have. If it is a stop on the way to/from F1 so be it. Its a stop a lot closer than the dirt tracks of New Egypt or go kart tracks of CA (which I also enjoy).

But that's just me. For others I imagine in the days when champcars also included the I500 it was much easier for a driver to call champcar an end point. Winning the 500, combined with the global exposure of CART in those days, made it a pretty satisfying deal. Some people may not be happy about that these days, but I think it was true at the time.

Today, that's another story. Unless you're Helio (see thread in Other Racing) ;)

[Ankf00]

Not for this fan it isn't. Not for many NASCAR fans it isn't. Not for many Americans period it isn't.
but for the clear majority of the drivers out there, it is

[jonovision_man]

^ 100 mil? More like 300 mil :eek:

Correct... and if the $8M number is to believed (IMO that's high), they could field a 38 car Champ Car effort.

Michael Schumacher isn't just paid more than any CCWS driver, he's paid more than the entire field... several times over if you include his sponsorship cash.

jono

[Forza Lancia]

Just another take on this issue --

I actually like the fact that ChampCar is a "stop on the way to somewhere else" (by which we mean primarily Formula One, obviously). I like having drivers like JP Montoya to support, after having seen them in "our" series, on the way up. I think the cross-pollination among F3000, CCWS, and F1 is a good thing in a global sport like racing.

[chop456]

Chop, I meant the stop in the U.S. Perhaps I should have included that.

BTW, who's the idiot? Just curious because we may differ on who it was.

Andretti the lesser.

[jonovision_man]

Just another take on this issue --

I actually like the fact that ChampCar is a "stop on the way to somewhere else" (by which we mean primarily Formula One, obviously). I like having drivers like JP Montoya to support, after having seen them in "our" series, on the way up. I think the cross-pollination among F3000, CCWS, and F1 is a good thing in a global sport like racing.

As someone who watches F1, I'm glad to watch Montoya and would love to see Bourdais go head-to-head with the likes of Schumacher.

But for CCWS, having the champion leave the series every couple of years for F1 hurts. It makes it look second-rate, and it takes the top drivers from the league... drivers the fans may have formed a connection with.

On the flip side, if there were no hope of F1 for a CCWS driver (like in that "other" series), a lot of those excellent F3000 drivers we've seen over the years wouldn't have come.

jono

[Dirty Sanchez]

Michael Schumacher isn't just paid more than any CCWS driver, he's paid more than the entire field...Yeah... but he's worth it. L'Oréal says so :gomer:

Back to the topic of this thread... "waaaaaa, why do people use Champ Car as a stepping stone, waaaaa" I'll say what others have said. F1 is the pinnacle... always has been, always will be. It doesn't matter what one fan prefers over another... the drivers prefer it... for good reason I might add. Let's see, you get to drive the most technologically advanced machines in the world (fact)... you can make more money (fact)... get better recognition (fact)... travel the world (fact)... and probably race in or near your home country. What's not to like if you're a driver? Getting trounced by Ferrari? Puh-lease. :rolleyes: Newman-Haas keeps up the way they're going... things might not be too different over here. They have nearly perfected this outdated formula.

Fact is most of the guys that have been here and moved on recognize the good qualities of the series such as the friendliness in the paddock, the camaraderie that exists between competitors and the overall uniqueness and diversity of the formula (which is in jeopardy btw :shakehead )... and they pretty much all look at Champ Car as a highlight in their careers... but they almost all want a shot at F1.

[Andrew Longman]

Of course the greatest would be if a core of top drivers raced in both F1 and Champcars (and ALMS, Transam and touring cars while were at it). Like to 60s-early 70s when Mario, Gurney, Donahue and a few others raced anything with wheels.

Never will happen though.

[Ankf00]

Bernie hates puppies... and jeebus!!

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Andretti the lesser.I agree, but I thought for some reason you were thinking of Little Al.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't think the team owners are asking the drivers to foot the bill for the team. It that were the case, why would a driver go to a team in the first place? They would just buy their own car, hire their own personnel and be their own boss. All that is being asked of them is to provide some sponsorship to assist in the team.

Nobody is forcing them to drive for a living. I think that everyone is required to do something at work that they really don't think should be part of their duties but, you got to do it if you want to work. I am an engineer, I hate financial stuff, I am not an accountant but, I still have to go to budget meetings, plan for expenditures and other such stuff that isn't what an engineer should be doing. It is a part of the job. If I wanted to drive for a living and that was the requirement, then that is what has to be done.

It isn't as if there is a shortage of folks that would line up to be a race driver. It is a privilege to drive, that privilege now has a price.

Yes, the teams are asking the drivers to foot the bill. I'm sure the reason most drivers wouldn't have their own teams is because of the cost of setting up shop, buying equipment, hiring crew, etc. is probably too much just to run a season or two of Formula BMW, or Toyota Atlantic or whatever. Not to mention the fact that an existing team would probably work better, which is why there is a premium to join one. I don't think most teams have any sort of sponsorship that isn't attached to the driver personally. I'm sure Travis could answer this better, but I'm sure that for whoever drives their race car in '05, they will have to provide nearly if not all of the funding necessary to make the grid.

I agree that racing is a privilege and not a real job, and I personally don't think that there should be any sympathy for those who don't make it. But, ultimately, professional motorsports is (or at least should be) all about providing entertainment, and that entertainment comes from having the most talented drivers possible behind the wheel.

[Ziggy]

Good post Crapus

I think the importance of the Champcar Championship is also WAY down. The two built in championships (PPG Cup and Indy 500) no longer have the viability to generate long term career earnings. F1 is dominated by factory money, and the pay checks for going with a top team for only a few years far outweigh the earning potential of running in a Stateside championship mired in political turmoil.

Aint it funny how after they wash out they move BACK to America to retire?

Ziggy

[racer2c]

Because of the high majority of foreign born drivers in Champ Car, it is no mystery as to why they would aspire to F1. Also, I'm sure there are many US born drivers who wouldn't mind representing their country at the pinnacle of motor sport. Although, notice how young Allmendinger has already put the brakes on F1 rumors.
The height of the issue comes when each new Champ Car champion leaves for the bright lights of F1. Let's see, who might those champs be...


CART Season Champions:

1979 - Rick Mears - Didn't go to F1.
1980 - Johnny Rutherford - Didn't go to F1.
1981 - Rick Mears -
1982 - Rick Mears
1983 - Al Unser - Didn't go to F1.
1984 - Mario Andretti
1985 - Al Unser
1986 - Bobby Rahal - Didn't go to F1.
1987 - Bobby Rahal
1988 - Danny Sullivan - - Did go to F1 ('83) but not after his CART Champsionship.
1989 - Emerson Fittipaldi
1990 - Al Unser Jr. - Didn't go to F1.
1991 - Michael Andretti - Did go to F1, but considering who his papa was...
1992 - Bobby Rahal
1993 - Nigel Mansell
1994 - Al Unser Jr.
1995 - Jacques Villeneuve - Did go to F1.
1996 - Jimmy Vasser - Didn't go to F1.
1997 - Alex Zanardi - Did go to F1.
1998 - Alex Zanardi
1999 - Juan Pablo Montoya - Did go to F1.
2000 - Gil de Ferran - No opportunity but would have gone IMO.
2001 - Gil de Ferran
2002 - Cristiano da Matta - Did go to F1.

Champ Car Season Champions:

2003 - Paul Tracy - Didn't go to F1.
2004 - Sebastien Bourdais - Wants to go, but no one will have him.


So it appears to me that there is a trend there. Foreign drivers and foreign champs aspire to F1 while North American drivers may want to but haven't; expect for Mickey and his pitiful little half season hardly counts. ;)

In my opinion, the more A.J’s we have in Champ Cars in the future, the less we’ll see our champions jumping across the pond and by that I don’t just mean North American born racers, but rather racers who look at what Champ Car is and says “this is where I want to be.”

[P Hanley]

Because of the high majority of foreign born drivers in Champ Car, it is no mystery as to why they would aspire to F1. Also, I'm sure there are many US born drivers who wouldn't mind representing their country at the pinnacle of motor sport. Although, notice how young Allmendinger has already put the brakes on F1 rumors.
The height of the issue comes when each new Champ Car champion leaves for the bright lights of F1. Let's see, who might those champs be...


CART Season Champions:

1979 - Rick Mears - Didn't go to F1.
1980 - Johnny Rutherford - Didn't go to F1.
1981 - Rick Mears -
1982 - Rick Mears
1983 - Al Unser - Didn't go to F1.
1984 - Mario Andretti
1985 - Al Unser
1986 - Bobby Rahal - Didn't go to F1.
1987 - Bobby Rahal
1988 - Danny Sullivan - - Did go to F1 ('83) but not after his CART Champsionship.
1989 - Emerson Fittipaldi
1990 - Al Unser Jr. - Didn't go to F1.
1991 - Michael Andretti - Did go to F1, but considering who his papa was...
1992 - Bobby Rahal
1993 - Nigel Mansell
1994 - Al Unser Jr.
1995 - Jacques Villeneuve - Did go to F1.
1996 - Jimmy Vasser - Didn't go to F1.
1997 - Alex Zanardi - Did go to F1.
1998 - Alex Zanardi
1999 - Juan Pablo Montoya - Did go to F1.
2000 - Gil de Ferran - No opportunity but would have gone IMO.
2001 - Gil de Ferran
2002 - Cristiano da Matta - Did go to F1.

Champ Car Season Champions:

2003 - Paul Tracy - Didn't go to F1.
2004 - Sebastien Bourdais - Wants to go, but no one will have him.


So it appears to me that there is a trend there. Foreign drivers and foreign champs aspire to F1 while North American drivers may want to but haven't; expect for Mickey and his pitiful little half season hardly counts. ;)

In my opinion, the more A.J’s we have in Champ Cars in the future, the less we’ll see our champions jumping across the pond and by that I don’t just mean North American born racers, but rather racers who look at what Champ Car is and says “this is where I want to be.”
I could be wrong, and ussualy am, but is it true that in 1993 Mansell came to cart as the reigning F1 champion? I just think that the series are so different and drivers are allways looking for new challenges. To me F1 is only the pinnacle in Technology and Money, not nessesarily the drivers.

[racer2c]

I could be wrong, and ussualy am, but is it true that in 1993 Mansell came to cart as the reigning F1 champion? I just think that the series are so different and drivers are allways looking for new challenges. To me F1 is only the pinnacle in Technology and Money, not nessesarily the drivers.

You are correct. Mansell shocked the racing community when he announced his retirement from F1 and his jump to CART in the same press conference.

[Michaelhatesfans]

1979 - Rick Mears - Didn't go to F1.
1980 - Johnny Rutherford - Didn't go to F1.
1981 - Rick Mears -
1982 - Rick Mears
1983 - Al Unser - Didn't go to F1.
1984 - Mario Andretti
1985 - Al Unser
1986 - Bobby Rahal - Didn't go to F1.
1987 - Bobby Rahal
1988 - Danny Sullivan - - Did go to F1 ('83) but not after his CART Champsionship.

1990 - Al Unser Jr. - Didn't go to F1.
1991 - Michael Andretti - Did go to F1, but considering who his papa was...
1992 - Bobby Rahal

1996 - Jimmy Vasser - Didn't go to F1.


Champ Car Season Champions:

2003 - Paul Tracy - Didn't go to F1.
2004 - Sebastien Bourdais - Wants to go, but no one will have him.


So it appears to me that there is a trend there. Foreign drivers and foreign champs aspire to F1 while North American drivers may want to but haven't; expect for Mickey and his pitiful little half season hardly counts. ;) ”
Wellll......
Mears - tested for F1, probably would have gone if the offer had come before his big accident.
Rutherford - Oval Guy
Al Unser - Prime of his career spent when the big money was at Indy
Rahal - Did some F1 (came to CART only when F1 career fizzled out)
Sullivan - See Rahal
Unser Jr. - Tested F1 car, wanted to go to F1. The offer didn't come.
Vasser - Would have gone F1 if the right offer had come at the right time.

Yes, even our beloved Yanks - the stars when CART was king, saw F1 as the pinnacle.

It would be great if drivers never wanted to leave for F1, but that old expression about wishing in one hand comes to mind. :cool:

[Clown]

2004 - Sebastien Bourdais - Wants to go, but no one will have him.Me too :shakehead :(

[Michaelhatesfans]

Me too :shakehead :(
No kidding. You would think that they would at least return our phone calls. The bastards. Instead I just keep getting these "Cease and Dissist" letters from their attorneys.

[bdogg187]

Why does it matter if someone wants to go to F1? Jeff Gordon has entertained thoughts of F1, but the obvious stability of his NASCAR career, the question of whether he could even cut it, and his age keep him from pursuing a drive. I dont think there is a single Champ Car driver who doesnt think about how great it would be to just have a shot at F1. Even Da Matta who totally trashed F1 and its politics probably still considers challenging the worlds best drivers on some of the worlds most famous tracks while driving the worlds most sophisticated machines to be the ultimate in racing.

[jonovision_man]

Why does it matter if someone wants to go to F1? Jeff Gordon has entertained thoughts of F1, but the obvious stability of his NASCAR career, the question of whether he could even cut it, and his age keep him from pursuing a drive. I dont think there is a single Champ Car driver who doesnt think about how great it would be to just have a shot at F1. Even Da Matta who totally trashed F1 and its politics probably still considers challenging the worlds best drivers on some of the worlds most famous tracks while driving the worlds most sophisticated machines to be the ultimate in racing.

Ahhh, da Matta... :p

Just proving the rule that the only drivers who trash F1 are those that (1) have no shot or (2) blew their shot.

jono

[Dirty Sanchez]

In my opinion, the more A.J’s we have in Champ Cars in the future, the less we’ll see our champions jumping across the pond and by that I don’t just mean North American born racers, but rather racers who look at what Champ Car is and says “this is where I want to be.”You actually buy that crap? :laugh:

[racer2c]

You actually buy that crap? :laugh:

Coming from A.J. in his first Champ Car season I most certainly do. Who are we to second guess what drivers true intentions are? I take them at their word until they prove otherwise. Da Matta and Andretti the lesser are two perfect examples. Both gave F1 a shot and are labeled washouts while they proclaim F1 a political nightmare in which only a select chosen few are able to truly excel. So, people then turn around and say "oh, their only saying that because they washed out. Sour grapes". Well, how do you know? You don't. You're speculating.

Now if A.J. becomes champion and has all the F1 dogs licking at his heels, I wouldn't blame him if he does give it a shot.
While F1 is the pinnacle of all motor sport, and like Trish said, try telling that to the NASCAR hoards or the drag racers for that matter, it wasn't long ago that CART was neck and neck with F1 and NASCAR (Thanks Tony). It could be again...but there I go speculating
.

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Michaelhatesfans, actually Big Al had several offers to go F1 among them from Colin Chapman at Lotus (to team with Mario), Penske (after Mark Donohue was killed) and McLaren.

Al said he would have liked to but he said there was so much racing in the U.S. that he'd rather race here than in Europe. I think he would have done okay. Not F1 champ, but for certain he would have won a race or two.

[jonovision_man]

Coming from A.J. in his first Champ Car season I most certainly do. Who are we to second guess what drivers true intentions are? I take them at their word until they prove otherwise. Da Matta and Andretti the lesser are two perfect examples. Both gave F1 a shot and are labeled washouts while they proclaim F1 a political nightmare in which only a select chosen few are able to truly excel. So, people then turn around and say "oh, their only saying that because they washed out. Sour grapes". Well, how do you know? You don't. You're speculating.

Now if A.J. becomes champion and has all the F1 dogs licking at his heels, I wouldn't blame him if he does give it a shot.
While F1 is the pinnacle of all motor sport, and like Trish said, try telling that to the NASCAR hoards or the drag racers for that matter, it wasn't long ago that CART was neck and neck with F1 and NASCAR (Thanks Tony). It could be again...but there I go speculating
.

Gravity is just a theory. :)

Sure it's speculating, but it's based on a large body of evidence that has any driver with a legit shot at F1 going over in the last decade...

It's also based on common sense, given the relative money and prestige of CCWS vs F1.

jono

[Dirty Sanchez]

^bingo :gomer:

I bet you believed da Matta when he said "I'm not just going to F1 to make up the numbers" too.

[Spicoli]

Driver rule #1:



FOLLOW THE DAMN MONEY.






Its pretty simple, really.
And there ain;t much money in CCWS right now.

[FTG]

What if the money is in the IRL? :saywhat:

[Sean O'Gorman]

If a driver has to choose between racing in the IRL or not having a paid drive at all, he is most likely going to pick the IRL. You should know that by now.

I dislike the IRL, but if I had no opportunities in Champ Car, Grand-Am, ALMS, NASCAR, but had an offer to race IRL, I'd take it too.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Michaelhatesfans, actually Big Al had several offers to go F1 among them from Colin Chapman at Lotus (to team with Mario), Penske (after Mark Donohue was killed) and McLaren.

Al said he would have liked to but he said there was so much racing in the U.S. that he'd rather race here than in Europe. I think he would have done okay. Not F1 champ, but for certain he would have won a race or two.
Yeah, I had heard that he had offers. Al was of a different generation, though. Like Parnelli Jones found, the big money was at Indy in those days, and you could pick up even more cash doing the odd NASCAR or sports car race (Can-Am was paying so much that even the F1 drivers were coming over) on your free weekends and still be home by Monday morning.

It would be fun to sit down for a while and try to pinpoint when it all started to change - when F1 became more professional, when multi-tasking in different series became unpopular with team owners, when television coverage started to convice sponsors that zillion dollar budgets were perfectly acceptable, when engine manufacturers began running programs without a budget... Of course, a study like that could only be done with a lot of beers handy. :D

[racer2c]

^bingo :gomer:

I bet you believed da Matta when he said "I'm not just going to F1 to make up the numbers" too.

Nice little world you live in. :gomer:
Do you believe OWRS?
Do you believe Tony George?
Do you believe BE?
How about the Frances?

oh, I get it, selective speculation. Hey that's catchy. :)

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Yeah, I had heard that he had offers. Al was of a different generation, though. Like Parnelli Jones found, the big money was at Indy in those days, and you could pick up even more cash doing the odd NASCAR or sports car race (Can-Am was paying so much that even the F1 drivers were coming over) on your free weekends and still be home by Monday morning.

It would be fun to sit down for a while and try to pinpoint when it all started to change - when F1 became more professional, when multi-tasking in different series became unpopular with team owners, when television coverage started to convice sponsors that zillion dollar budgets were perfectly acceptable, when engine manufacturers began running programs without a budget... Of course, a study like that could only be done with a lot of beers handy. :DI could pinpoint when F1 took off: Bernie

Love him or hate him (I'm of the latter opinion) he as much for F1 as Tony Hulman did for the IMS (he's gotta be freaking rocking and rolling in his grave).

But we could still do a study with LOTS of beers handy. Just make sure you limit TrueBrit to oh, about a dozen.

[Dirty Sanchez]

Nice little world you live in. :gomer:
Indeed :thumbup:

Don't worry... I won't forget to tell ya "I told ya so" :gomer:

[mueber]

Look, NASCAR people think NASCAR is the alpha and the omega because they are afraid of people who aren’t like themselves, if they are even aware that there are people who aren’t like them selves. Sports car types say they are world class, but even they don’t believe it. Sprint car types have these superiority complexes going to consol themselves over the fact that no one cares.

Champ Car, OTOH, is/was a pretty good alternative for those outside of the handful of drivers, mechanics, engineers and hangers on who can’t get spot in Formula One, and for the Al Unser, Jr. types who carry all the baggage of having a daddy who sees the Gomerville Invitational as the be all and end all of a mighty small pond.

The Al Unser, Jr. types are all gone now. That leaves us with those who can’t or don’t want to do Formula One—those on the way up, and those headed for retirement. I got to see Mansell, Emmo, and Montoya because of that, and I got to see Mario for a lot longer then I would of because of that. It’s OK by me. And if Sebastian and A. J. make it to F-1, I’ll root for them there, and their replacements here.

[Michaelhatesfans]

I could pinpoint when F1 took off: Bernie

I know, but I didn't want to take away from the beers. :cool:

[Mike Kellner]

If we had a system where front runners and series champs made a lot of money, they would be a lot less likely to leave for F1. That is why Jeff Gordon is still in NASCAR. He makes cubic money there, where in F1 he has a chance to make Cubic Money if he can run even with Schumacher and Montoya, which is not a sure thing. So, he has to walk away from guaranteed big money for a chance at big money. Ain't gonna happen. However, if the choice is to buy a ride with no chance to make big money, or buy a ride with a chance to get so rich you will have to move to Monaco because when you figure in the taxes, it is the cheapest place for you to live, F1 looks real good.

They don't even have to pay everyone, just the big dogs. If they could make sure the top guys would make money in the lotsa millions per year range, more of them would stay around.

mk

[chop456]

Da Matta and Andretti the lesser are two perfect examples. Both gave F1 a shot and are labeled washouts while they proclaim F1 a political nightmare in which only a select chosen few are able to truly excel.

daMatta and Andretti ARE washouts. Both were crushed by their teammates.

The "select chosen few" are those who play by the rules and win, i.e., beat your teammate, improve the car, show potential for bigger and better things. Schumacher made it into F1 on the merits of one race, placing well above where he should have in a crap car. da Matta led a few laps on a pit strategy move. Andretti wadded up a gaggle of McLarens. Not good enough.

[EDwardo]

I could be wrong, and ussualy am, but is it true that in 1993 Mansell came to cart as the reigning F1 champion? I just think that the series are so different and drivers are allways looking for new challenges. To me F1 is only the pinnacle in Technology and Money, not nessesarily the drivers.

Over the last 10-15 years, quite a few ex-F1 drivers have taken a shot at competing in CART/Champcar.I'm too lazy to look up the list!) F1 champs like Mansell and Fittapaldi were successful but mid pack ex-F1 pilots had little impact. The best drivers will almost always succeed but merely participating in a series is no guarantee of success.

As for driver financed rides, I see nothing wrong with investing money in an endeavor one finds interesting and compelling. In fact, as opposed to selling ones soul to rich sponsors, I find it refreshing that drivers put up the cash to do what they love doing.

[racer2c]

daMatta and Andretti ARE washouts. Both were crushed by their teammates.

The "select chosen few" are those who play by the rules and win, i.e., beat your teammate, improve the car, show potential for bigger and better things. Schumacher made it into F1 on the merits of one race, placing well above where he should have in a crap car. da Matta led a few laps on a pit strategy move. Andretti wadded up a gaggle of McLarens. Not good enough.



Hmm. Comparing '94 F1 to 2003 F1 is a bit of a stretch.

Debating the 'worthiness' of Shuey in a rising Benetton team in '93 and Da Matta in a crap new Toyata team where no other teammate has proven the car half a racer is something I'll only do at a bar with good friends.

My point wasn't to get pushed into defending Andretti ( his F1 adventure was a joke, but not because of lack of talent, as much as I can’t stand him these days.) and Da Matta, obviously that was over your head. I so enjoy you so called Champ Car fans who are so quick to crap on Champ Car drivers in F1 when they get pushed aside for the next silver spoon. "I love Champ Car but their drivers can't hold a candle". Bah.

And using Schumacher as an example is taking the easy way out. :thumdown:

Sometimes I wonder where Schumacher would be if Senna hadn’t died. Well, I’ll tell you…on the second step.

[Fried]

daMatta and Andretti ARE washouts. Both were crushed by their teammates
.Dude. You're taling out yer ***.

[Railbird]

'fraid not fried

Mikey washed himself out with a decidedly half-assed commitment and Shorty couldn't match the performance of his journeyman teammate.

Neither made it to the end of their contract for a reason.

Back to the money thing, Kellner hits the nail as usual. When I was a kid (roll the black and white tape) guys like Foyt and Ward had no reason to have more than a passing interest in F1 because the money was over here. The freakin' Hoosier Hundred payed more than Spa and Indy offered unthinkable cash for buth the owners and drivers.

Chapman and Clark didn't skip Monaco and come over just for a swig of moo juice.

[jonovision_man]

Hmm. Comparing '94 F1 to 2003 F1 is a bit of a stretch.

Debating the 'worthiness' of Shuey in a rising Benetton team in '93 and Da Matta in a crap new Toyata team where no other teammate has proven the car half a racer is something I'll only do at a bar with good friends.

My point wasn't to get pushed into defending Andretti ( his F1 adventure was a joke, but not because of lack of talent, as much as I can’t stand him these days.) and Da Matta, obviously that was over your head. I so enjoy you so called Champ Car fans who are so quick to crap on Champ Car drivers in F1 when they get pushed aside for the next silver spoon. "I love Champ Car but their drivers can't hold a candle". Bah.

And using Schumacher as an example is taking the easy way out. :thumdown:

Sometimes I wonder where Schumacher would be if Senna hadn’t died. Well, I’ll tell you…on the second step.

Schumacher is awesome. He's a better driver than anyone in the current field by a bit, he's incredibly consistent, mistakes are very rare, and he's lightenning fast. It's a powerful combination and it's no fluke he's won the championships he has. It's more than just the car, and he can even take some credit for that! I think Senna would have had his hands full with Michael.

Champ Car drivers aren't crap at all. If you took the top half dozen drivers from Champ Car and replaced the worst half dozen of F1, you'd improve the F1 grid tremendously.

The point, though, is that you wouldn't have to try very hard to convince them to go...

jono

[Ziggy]

For all that has been writen about Michaels failed attempt at Formula racing, one explaination must have some weight. In a Mario Andretti book I have laying around here, Mario gives some credence to the clusterbang that was going on at McLarens during that time.

Im not defending anybody, as Im not a fan of Michaels. I got up every Sunday morning and got dissapointed like many Champcar fans. That being said, even though it comes from his father, I think Mario's take on the events has to be given some weight

(and of course, it's all McLarens fault)

fifty fifty I would guess

Ziggy

[RTKar]

'fraid not fried


Back to the money thing, Kellner hits the nail as usual. When I was a kid (roll the black and white tape) guys like Foyt and Ward had no reason to have more than a passing interest in F1 because the money was over here. The freakin' Hoosier Hundred payed more than Spa and Indy offered unthinkable cash for buth the owners and drivers.

Chapman and Clark didn't skip Monaco and come over just for a swig of moo juice.

From the book, "Team Lotus The Indianapolis Years" by Andrew Ferguson.

"It is interesting to compare Jimmy's (Clark's) Indy income with that of his other categories of racing. For the Tasman series of ten races (of which he won nine) his total of start, prize and bonus monies was 4000 Pounds; for his Formula 1 season of 13 events which included the World Championship, it was 13340 Pounds. For his one race at Indy it was over 46000 Pounds."

[chop456]

Hmm. Comparing '94 F1 to 2003 F1 is a bit of a stretch.

Debating the 'worthiness' of Shuey in a rising Benetton team in '93 and Da Matta in a crap new Toyata team where no other teammate has proven the car half a racer is something I'll only do at a bar with good friends.

My point wasn't to get pushed into defending Andretti ( his F1 adventure was a joke, but not because of lack of talent, as much as I can’t stand him these days.) and Da Matta, obviously that was over your head. I so enjoy you so called Champ Car fans who are so quick to crap on Champ Car drivers in F1 when they get pushed aside for the next silver spoon. "I love Champ Car but their drivers can't hold a candle". Bah.

And using Schumacher as an example is taking the easy way out. :thumdown:

Sometimes I wonder where Schumacher would be if Senna hadn’t died. Well, I’ll tell you…on the second step.


It doesn't matter if the Toyota is crap. First, you beat your teammate. da Matta didn't. Favoritism of Panis over "Toyota guy" da Matta? Riiiight.

And if Andretti's problem wasn't lack of talent, what was it that caused him to finish a whole 4 laps in his first 3 races, conspiracy? Senna was on the podium with the same car. If Mikey couldn't be expected to keep up with Senna, maybe he should have paired himself with Katayama instead.

[nrc]

'fraid not fried

Mikey washed himself out with a decidedly half-assed commitment and Shorty couldn't match the performance of his journeyman teammate.

That's an odd yardstick. When a rookie comes into champ car I expect a decent journeyman teammate to beat him through at least half the first season. I guess there's zero learning curve involved in F1.

[racer2c]

Ok Da Matta haters. Time to put a stop your revisionist history propaganda.

Here is something I dug up. Funny, no mention of a 'trouncing'

2003 Season

"New boy Cristiano Da Matta was consistent around 10th spot and only failed to finish three out of the 16 GPs.

But team-mate Olivier Panis again under-performed and suffered plenty of car trouble."Link (http://www.sportinglife.com/clients/planetf1/formula1/teams/toyota.html)

Now let's look at the numbers. (R of course means 'retired' the first # is the points for the race and the second # is the position finished in the race.)

O Panis R R R 09 R R 013 18 R 18 011 45 R R R 010 Total points = 6

C da Matta R 011 010 012 36 010 09 011 R 011 27 36 011 R 09 27 Total points = 10

Hmm. Looky there. Da Matta finished higher than Panis. They canned Da Matta and eh hm, let Panis retire gracfully (like that wasn't in his contract). And how long had Panis been in F1?

Sorry fellas, no trouncing. You guys are going to have a miserable 2005 Champ Car season watching Shorty wipe the field.

[jonovision_man]

Ok Da Matta haters. Time to put a stop your revisionist history propaganda.

Here is something I dug up. Funny, no mention of a 'trouncing'

2003 Season

"New boy Cristiano Da Matta was consistent around 10th spot and only failed to finish three out of the 16 GPs.

But team-mate Olivier Panis again under-performed and suffered plenty of car trouble."Link (http://www.sportinglife.com/clients/planetf1/formula1/teams/toyota.html)

Now let's look at the numbers. (R of course means 'retired' the first # is the points for the race and the second # is the position finished in the race.)

O Panis R R R 09 R R 013 18 R 18 011 45 R R R 010 Total points = 6

C da Matta R 011 010 012 36 010 09 011 R 011 27 36 011 R 09 27 Total points = 10

Hmm. Looky there. Da Matta finished higher than Panis. They canned Da Matta and eh hm, let Panis retire gracfully (like that wasn't in his contract). And how long had Panis been in F1?

Sorry fellas, no trouncing. You guys are going to have a miserable 2005 Champ Car season watching Shorty wipe the field.

I'm trying to figure out who you're arguing with, since nobody said da Matta was "trounced"...

Panis had a very similar record on the track. Now neither of them are Toyota drivers. There was nothing special about either of their performances.

Panis is still with the team because he's a gentleman who knows how to get along and work with people. It's been his strength throughout his F1 career.

Da Matta made public comments about the car and by all accounts could not get along with the team. He was fired and replaced with Zonta... and if you look at his whining after the fact, his attitude was horrible and Toyota made the right call.

jono

[racer2c]

I'm trying to figure out who you're arguing with, since nobody said da Matta was "trounced"...

Panis had a very similar record on the track. Now neither of them are Toyota drivers. There was nothing special about either of their performances.

Panis is still with the team because he's a gentleman who knows how to get along and work with people. It's been his strength throughout his F1 career.

Da Matta made public comments about the car and by all accounts could not get along with the team. He was fired and replaced with Zonta... and if you look at his whining after the fact, his attitude was horrible and Toyota made the right call.

jono

Actually the word was "crushed".

"daMatta and Andretti ARE washouts. Both were crushed by their teammates."


Let's see how Toyota is doing in winter testing without that washout Da Matta.

Jerez de la Frontera F1 testing - Day Two:

1) Jacques Villeneuve (CAN/Sauber-Petronas/M), 1:22s061 (74 laps)
2) Nick Heidfeld (GER/Williams-BMW/M), 1:22s430 (96)
3) Vitantonio Liuzzi (ITA/Red Bull-Cosworth/M), 1:22s900 (68)
4) Christian Klien (AUT/Red Bull-Cosworth/M), 1:23s124 (35)
5) Antonio Pizzonia (BRA/Williams-BMW/M), 1:23s382 (48)
6) Takuma Sato (JAP/BAR-Honda/M), 1:24s114 (44)
7) Giancarlo Fisichella (ITA/Renault/M), 1:24s525 (42)
8) Alexander Wurz (AUT/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1:24s700 (48)
9) Franck Montagny (FRA/Renault/M), 1:24s774 (41)
10) Alan van der Merwe (RSA/BAR-Honda/M), 1:25s446 (36)
11) Ralf Schumacher (GER/Toyota/M), 1:26s200 (54)
12) Luca Badoer (ITA/Ferrari/B), 1:27s553 (38)
13) Marc Gené (SPA/Ferrari/B), 1:28s929 (37)
14) Pedro de La Rosa (SPA/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1:29s697 (23)
15) Robert Doornbos (HOL/Jordan-Ford/B), 1:32s211 (51)
16) James Rossiter (ENG/BAR-Honda/M), 1:33s474 (34)
17) Enrique Bernoldi (BRA/BAR-Honda/M), 1:33s493 (14)

Hmm, looky there. 10th. Big improvment! Well, at least they have the IRL. Opps, they suck there too.

[Railbird]

The problem was that Shorty didn't "trounce" his elderly mate.

Match-ups with aging journeymen are a phenoms dream, CdM just didn't do enough phenominating.

No matter how he does against a depleted CCWS field he'll still be an F1 washout.

[Mike Kellner]

"Da Matta made public comments about the car and by all accounts could not get along with the team. "

Good point; if you want to keep your ride, never bad mouth the team. The most successful drivers are are team builders. When the car is off pace and then burns to the ground as its final act, they never make the "What do you expect me to do with this piece-o-****?" speech to the camera. At worst, it is something along the lines of "We all have to work harder" or "The guys worked real hard, and I am sorry I let them down." The driver is a front man, he has to put a good spin on whatever happens. Save the "it's a dog" speech for the Monday engineering meeting.

mk

[racer2c]

The problem was that Shorty didn't "trounce" his elderly mate.

Match-ups with aging journeymen are a phenoms dream, CdM just didn't do enough phenominating.

No matter how he does against a depleted CCWS field he'll still be an F1 washout.

so like nrc pointed out, it's not enough that you did beat your seasoned teammate in the points (which is what F1 is all about), you're fired for not beating him by enough and running your mouth. Like there is no shortage of tongue wagging in F1.

Da Matta will be a washout to the F1 teams, he's still a Champ Car champion which seems to have little pull with Champ Car fans these days 'round here.

All the better for me, I've been a Da Matta fans since his rookie year in Champ Car.

[jonovision_man]

"Da Matta made public comments about the car and by all accounts could not get along with the team. "

Good point; if you want to keep your ride, never bad mouth the team. The most successful drivers are are team builders. When the car is off pace and then burns to the ground as its final act, they never make the "What do you expect me to do with this piece-o-****?" speech to the camera. At worst, it is something along the lines of "We all have to work harder" or "The guys worked real hard, and I am sorry I let them down." The driver is a front man, he has to put a good spin on whatever happens. Save the "it's a dog" speech for the Monday engineering meeting.

mk

It's especially important in F1 where there are at least 250-300 employees to offend... in some other series you might be able to give a "sorry guys" speech and get away with it.

jono

[Spicoli]

Actually the word was "crushed".

"daMatta and Andretti ARE washouts. Both were crushed by their teammates."


Let's see how Toyota is doing in winter testing without that washout Da Matta.

Jerez de la Frontera F1 testing - Day Two:

1) Jacques Villeneuve (CAN/Sauber-Petronas/M), 1:22s061 (74 laps)
2) Nick Heidfeld (GER/Williams-BMW/M), 1:22s430 (96)
3) Vitantonio Liuzzi (ITA/Red Bull-Cosworth/M), 1:22s900 (68)
4) Christian Klien (AUT/Red Bull-Cosworth/M), 1:23s124 (35)
5) Antonio Pizzonia (BRA/Williams-BMW/M), 1:23s382 (48)
6) Takuma Sato (JAP/BAR-Honda/M), 1:24s114 (44)
7) Giancarlo Fisichella (ITA/Renault/M), 1:24s525 (42)
8) Alexander Wurz (AUT/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1:24s700 (48)
9) Franck Montagny (FRA/Renault/M), 1:24s774 (41)
10) Alan van der Merwe (RSA/BAR-Honda/M), 1:25s446 (36)
11) Ralf Schumacher (GER/Toyota/M), 1:26s200 (54)
12) Luca Badoer (ITA/Ferrari/B), 1:27s553 (38)
13) Marc Gené (SPA/Ferrari/B), 1:28s929 (37)
14) Pedro de La Rosa (SPA/McLaren-Mercedes/M), 1:29s697 (23)
15) Robert Doornbos (HOL/Jordan-Ford/B), 1:32s211 (51)
16) James Rossiter (ENG/BAR-Honda/M), 1:33s474 (34)
17) Enrique Bernoldi (BRA/BAR-Honda/M), 1:33s493 (14)

Hmm, looky there. 10th. Big improvment! Well, at least they have the IRL. Opps, they suck there too.


I see tenth is a Homoco car. :gomer:

[racer2c]

I see tenth is a Homoco car. :gomer:

Whateva! :D

[Dirty Sanchez]

In 2003, Panis had a better season even with less points. He outqualified da Matta more than any other teammate on the grid besides maybe Michael... and in the majority of the races he retired from, he was running ahead of da Matta. da Matta made more unforced errors, qualified worse and basically made zero impact on the sport. Its no coincidence that no one else came calling after da Matta got let go. He was only there as a thank you from Toyota Japan anyway. Lots of reports saying Toyota F1 in Germany was less than excited from the get go.

Fanboys will try to paint a different picture ofcourse... but unfortunately 10-6 in points is the only factual information they can provide. The rest of the facts show Panis still with the team and da Matta out of the sport.

No, he wasn't crushed at Toyota... but he sure as hell will be next year at Newman Haas. Book it. :thumbup:

[jonovision_man]

Let's see how Toyota is doing in winter testing without that washout Da Matta.

...

Hmm, looky there. 10th. Big improvment! Well, at least they have the IRL. Opps, they suck there too.

Let me get this straight... you think one day of winter testing in November before their 2005 contender is even released is a way of accurately determining their performance?

Did you notice the two Ferraris behind them? And that the Sauber was on top? Figure that'll be the way the 2005 grid lines up?

It's utterly meaningless...

jono

[racer2c]

Didn't know there were so many Toyota fans here. Suuuprise, suuuprise!

Fanboy. That's funny, cuz I am a fan and a boy.

Let me paint this picture again for you mouth breathers.... your mid packer journyman Panis didn't 'crush' Da Matta, in fact he finished second to him in points. Here's a newsflash for you hatahs, it's not how you qualify, it's how you finish. It's been the purpose of racing for a, well, since the very first race. :gomer:

11th for Toyota in winter testing is par for the course.

Here's a link for you Yoda fans that you might enjoy. Link (http://www.indyracing.com/)

[jonovision_man]

Didn't know there were so many Toyota fans here. Suuuprise, suuuprise!

Fanboy. That's funny, cuz I am a fan and a boy.

Let me paint this picture again for you mouth breathers.... your mid packer journyman Panis didn't 'crush' Da Matta, in fact he finished second to him in points. Here's a newsflash for you hatahs, it's not how you qualify, it's how you finish. It's been the purpose of racing for a, well, since the very first race. :gomer:

11th for Toyota in winter testing is par for the course.

Here's a link for you Yoda fans that you might enjoy. Link (http://www.indyracing.com/)

I agree with Toyota firing da Matta. Not sure that makes me a fan. :rolleyes: I guess I'm a fan of their HR department. :)

jono

[racer2c]

I agree with Toyota firing da Matta. Not sure that makes me a fan. :rolleyes: I guess I'm a fan of their HR department. :)

jono

All in good fun. :thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

From the book, "Team Lotus The Indianapolis Years" by Andrew Ferguson.

"It is interesting to compare Jimmy's (Clark's) Indy income with that of his other categories of racing. For the Tasman series of ten races (of which he won nine) his total of start, prize and bonus monies was 4000 Pounds; for his Formula 1 season of 13 events which included the World Championship, it was 13340 Pounds. For his one race at Indy it was over 46000 Pounds." Exactly right, F1 events were like big club races when I first started attending in the early 60's. That was also how Indy killed technical innovation in US OW cars. Indy was a big enough pay day to keep homegrown constructors engineering exclusively for it while Chapman, McLaren, Duckworth, Brabham and the rest were contesting two dozen races all over the world 12 months of the year because they needed the paydays to float the boat. Technical innovation was ongoing year round, and when Bernie finally brought the spark of big money to the party it ignited into something very interesting and compelling to a great many people world wide.

If you want CCWS to be where CART was in the days it did hold a candle to F1, it's a matter of three ingredients. Bring back the 1000hp 16,000Rpm engines so the cars can once again approach F1 lap times, make the series championship money big enough to be compelling to top teams and drivers and race on tracks that are worthy. That is also the way to make it once again interesting to fans IMO. Not an easy task, but then again few things worth having are easy to get.

oc

[jonovision_man]

If you want CCWS to be where CART was in the days it did hold a candle to F1, it's a matter of three ingredients. Bring back the 1000hp 16,000Rpm engines so the cars can once again approach F1 lap times, make the series championship money big enough to be compelling to top teams and drivers and race on tracks that are worthy. That is also the way to make it once again interesting to fans IMO. Not an easy task, but then again few things worth having are easy to get.

oc

I'm in. :)

F1 is dumbing itself down, we'll see what happens in Montreal as far as lap times, but surely the gap will be coming down anyway to some degree.

jono

[Fried]

railbird, i agree, cdm was gonna lose his seat anyway because he didn't trounce panis. however, the firing was strictly political. he didn't get along with gascoyne, not the team. big difference, jono.

[Sean O'Gorman]

da Matta is not World Championship material. Toyota wants a world championship. Whether or not they were capable of reaching it during da Matta's time there is irrevelent, he simply isn't at the level that they need. End of story.

[racer2c]

da Matta is not World Championship material. Toyota wants a world championship. Whether or not they were capable of reaching it during da Matta's time there is irrevelent, he simply isn't at the level that they need. End of story.

And Ralph Schumacher is? :rofl:

I think Da Matta is very much F1 Champ material. Talented, opinionated, charismatic, oh you mean everyone is supposed to a robot now ala The Chin? I guess so.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I think Da Matta is very much F1 Champ material. Talented, opinionated, charismatic, oh you mean everyone is supposed to a robot now ala The Chin? I guess so.You forgot unemployed. :thumbup:

[Fried]

And Ralph Schumacher is? :rofl:

I think Da Matta is very much F1 Champ material. Talented, opinionated, charismatic, oh you mean everyone is supposed to a robot now ala The Chin? I guess so. :thumbup:

[pinniped]

da Matta is not World Championship material. Toyota wants a world championship. Whether or not they were capable of reaching it during da Matta's time there is irrevelent, he simply isn't at the level that they need. End of story.


I don't know how you can come to that conclusion based on his F1 results. He had a crap car, and pretty much kept pace with Panis, who in turn managed to not be blown away by Hakkinen when he tested for McLaren. I don't think he has been shown up by any of his numerous fellow teammates, testers, or replacements. Its formula 1, not champ car, and he was in a Toyoter.

[jonovision_man]

And Ralph Schumacher is? :rofl:

I think Da Matta is very much F1 Champ material. Talented, opinionated, charismatic, oh you mean everyone is supposed to a robot now ala The Chin? I guess so.

Ralf and Trulli are both inconsistent, with flashes of brilliance.

Da Matta was consistently un-brilliant.

Pick your poison. :p

jono

[racer2c]

Ralf and Trulli are both inconsistent, with flashes of brilliance.

Da Matta was consistently un-brilliant.

Pick your poison. :p

jono

I see this has hit a wall. I think it was and will be hard for anyone to be 'brilliant' in a Toyota in the near future.

Da Matta sure did prove himself in Champ Car. Oh that's right, he won because of the weight advantage. :rolleyes:

[Fried]

i read a good quote somewhere..."people who follow f1 make their living comparing apples to oranges"

that sums it nicely to me.

[Dr. Corkski]

I see this has hit a wall. I think it was and will be hard for anyone to be 'brilliant' in a Toyota in the near future.

Da Matta sure did prove himself in Champ Car. Oh that's right, he won because of the weight advantage. :rolleyes:Which means nothing in F1.

[racer2c]

Which means nothing in F1.

Meant enough to get him there along with Villenueve, JPM and Zanardi's second breath of F1.

[Dr. Corkski]

Meant enough to get him there alone with Villenueve, JPM and Zanardi's second breath of F1.But not neccessarily championship material in F1.

[Fried]

But not neccessarily championship material in F1.you mean he wouldn't win a championship in an F2004, F2003 GA, or F2002?

[Dr. Corkski]

you mean he wouldn't win a championship in an F2004, F2003 GA, or F2002?Do you think Olivier Panis would?

[L1P1]

I was just wondering if I was the only one who is sick of Champ Car just being a stop on the road to something "better". If I'm the only one who wants Champ Car filled with talented drivers who dreamed of being there.

IMHO, Champ Car itself is at a stop on its way to something better (or at least, I hope it is). It actually shares a lot things with with its drivers. All things considered, I think it's good that winning the championship is one of the few ways a driver can get noticed for an F1 drive. And I truly think that it's the best way for those of us who want to see an American driving in F1 (I wish Red Bull would see that).

Champ Car racing needs to do some things to return it to its rightful place. What those are are debatable, but it does need to get back to being the series where a disgruntled F1 champion can feel good about as an option.

[Fried]

Do you think Olivier Panis would?
yep. and so would everyone up to position 17 on the grid. I'd only exclude the 2 minardi drivers and klien, and even then it'd be fairly close. not much to it when the car's 1-2 secs quicker than the rest of the field.

[racer2c]

Who's in for picking the next Champ Car driver who goes to F1?

I'll say Valiente.

[Railbird]

seldom see it get this stupid on OC.

The fact is CdM got fired and no other team bothered to inquire about his services.

Get over it

[racer2c]

seldom see it get this stupid on OC.

The fact is CdM got fired and no other team bothered to inquire about his services.

Get over it

It's off season at Off Camber. Lighten up. :thumdown: