Even more on the new earl spec in autoweek

[cart7]

Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101332)


"As for GM, Barnhart remains perturbed with how Doug Duchardt, the head of GM Racing, spoke of the IRL’s problems in a teleconference with national media last month. Duchardt said the IRL’s declining television ratings, its still-low attendance at races, and a general lack of value in Tony George’s series were at the root of the manufacturer’s decision to depart. Duchardt also said Honda, and Toyota to a lesser extent, have driven up the cost of participating."

:laugh:

[DaveL]

I think I can sum up Brainfart's response thusly

:cry: :cry: :cry:

[racer2c]

"The IRL’s future could be on the line over the next several months."

Please please please fold. Go Away Tony! :)

[spinner26]

Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101332)


"As for GM, Barnhart remains perturbed with how Doug Duchardt, the head of GM Racing, spoke of the IRL’s problems in a teleconference with national media last month. Duchardt said the IRL’s declining television ratings, its still-low attendance at races, and a general lack of value in Tony George’s series were at the root of the manufacturer’s decision to depart. Duchardt also said Honda, and Toyota to a lesser extent, have driven up the cost of participating."

:laugh:

Brian does not like it when the koolaid spin is not put on things. The absolute best thing the earl has going for it is it's unbelievable spin masters. They sound so bad spinning things that they had to change the yaps in the booth for this year. :rofl: :rofl:

[DaveL]

“We’ve told [the IRL] early on that we’re not interested in that, and nothing has changed,” said Robert Clarke, vice president and general manager of Honda Performance Development. (Honda does not have an overhead-cam V8 in its passenger-car lineup, or any V8, for that matter.)

So if they go "production based" they lose Honda and the cars on the grid Honda is paying for. So far so good.



“We will have to make a decision to attract the most manufacturers to us,” Barn-hart said.

Which translates to, "We will go with whatever we can get because we're in no position to dictate anything to anyone. The mfgs have us by the short hairs and whatever they say goes."



“A good portion of that we have zero control over,” he claimed, citing team subsidies in general and Honda’s estimated $18 million commitment to Andretti Green Racing in particular. “How can I control that? How can I stop that?”

Which blows the notion that a sanctioning body can control costs, a problem the IRL was supposed to solve, remember? In other words, the IRL has NO CONTROL over its own series. The mfgs do what they want, when the want, and at the price they want and all Brainfart can do is stand there and pick his nose.

The IRL-Protecting Indy since 1994.

[DaveL]

Oops, I forgot this part



Barnhart went on to say that costs remained low in the IRL’s early years because GM, then working through its Oldsmobile brand, had little competition from Infiniti. Toyota and Honda joined the IRL in 2003, and that increased the stakes.

So they had the cost control model they wanted then thew it out with the trash so they could try to kill CART. Now everything is the exact opposite of what they wanted. They shot a bullet to kill CART and that same bullet is bouncing back right at them.

And one thing Brainfart left out is that the reason why costs were low in the early years was because there were fewer races and the podunk teams they had filling the field couldn't find sponsors will to spend real money. Floyd showed them in 2000 how easy it was to win at Indy with a real team with real money and the debacle in '01 showed just how piss-poor the IRL teams really were. The low costs they had nothing to do with good management. It had to do with the low quality of the teams.

[DaveL]

Ok gang, I'm not doing this so I can reply to myself but these things are coming to me after I make my posts.

Let's say the .1RL does go to a "production based" engine for '07 and keeps Toyota and somehow brings GM back. Honda is gone and with them a bunch of subsidized cars. But that's not the real problem. The problem is that the first engines, the legendary 4.0 Wunderengine that the Lemmings claimed was the greatest engineering achievement in the history of motor racing, produced too much power so they were scrapped. If the new engines produce too much power again they are back to scrapping them and returning to a racing specific design, which means GM is back to where they don't want want to be and Honda will have to be convinced to come back.

So in other words, the .1RL will alienate at least 2 out of the 3 mfgs they currently have no matter what decision they make.

:thumbup: The fabulous .1RL-by the numbers.

[dando]

So much of that piece is laughable, but the following jumped out @ me:


Barnhart is concerned about jeopardizing reliability because he has endured the IRL’s long road of progress. The first equipment formula implemented by the IRL, in 1997, included production-based engines, and they failed regularly. The switch to a 3.5-liter engine came in 2000, and improvement followed. The drop to a 3.0-liter engine this past May further improved reliability.

So one wonders why a mfg would want to demonstrate an exploding engine on Sunday afternoon??? I can hear Goodyear now "That's the Chevy S-10 engine going boom down the backstretch." :laugh: Of course, with no one watching, it's a moot point anyway. :shakehead

Secondly, claiming increased engine reliabilty while detuning and rev limiting those POS engines is simply ludicrous.

-Kevin

[dando]

Ok gang, I'm not doing this so I can reply to myself but these things are coming to me after I make my posts.

Let's say the .1RL does go to a "production based" engine for '07 and keeps Toyota and somehow brings GM back. Honda is gone and with them a bunch of subsidized cars. But that's not the real problem. The problem is that the first engines, the legendary 4.0 Wunderengine that the Lemmings claimed was the greatest engineering achievement in the history of motor racing, produced too much power so they were scrapped. If the new engines produce too much power again they are back to scrapping them and returning to a racing specific design, which means GM is back to where they don't want want to be and Honda will have to be convinced to come back.

So in other words, the .1RL will alienate at least 2 out of the 3 mfgs they currently have no matter what decision they make.

:thumbup: The fabulous .1RL-by the numbers.
Dave, I've got that solved already...break out the 4 bangers. They'll have Civics facing off against a Corolla and a Cavalier. First one to last 200 miles @ Indy wins. :gomer:

-Kevin

[cart7]

Or... another scenario. TG employs Cosworth to build him a low cost spec engine that anyone can buy. Rebuilders are allowed. GM or Toyo may stay or they might bug out anyway. Honda is definitely gone.

Step 2. KK announces his new spec engine for CCWS which, SURPRISE! is the same as the earl is running ....EXCEPT.. a lease program for CCWS participants is far less expensive than what they can get via the earl.

Earl teams migrate to CCWS and only need a chassis to participate in the 500 as they can use their CCWS engine for the race.

Just a thought.

[DaveL]

Or... another scenario. TG employs Cosworth to build him a low cost spec engine that anyone can buy.

It's a scenario so unlikely that it doesn't merit discussion. If Cosworth was the only option to Idiotgrandson, and KK is half the businessman I think he is, the cost to the .1RL for Cosworth products would be considerable so as to maximize the profit for Cosworth. And because Cosworth has the supply and the .1RL has the demand, Cosworth would be in a position to dictate the terms right down to the size of the wrist pins in the engine.

Come to think of it, it kinda like having KK in control of the .1RL's engines. Give the .1RL teams grenades and the CCWS the good stuff for the 500.

[bdogg187]

This recent talk by Boy George and his entourage is just pathetic. The IRL cant sell its product, whether that means no one will buy it because they hate it, or IRL just doesnt know poop about marketing, or both. If the IRLs TV ratings were double what they currently are, then maybe they wouldnt be having these issues with engine manufacturers. The idea that production based engines will reduce costs drastically is mind-bogglingly stupid. Its just what Chevy wants because they think they would have an advantage if they did that. Lets face it, lowering tech to reduce cost has been proven not to work, why does a NASCAR team cost 15-20 Million to run? Heck I think Penske and Ganassi would find a way to do a million dollars worth of R&D on a Formula Ford if it meant they could win more races. Basically I dont think they can reduce cost enough to make a difference to chevy, but Change things too drastically and you piss off honda. TG and the boyz are trying to fix the IRL ratings problem, not by finding more fans, but by reducing cost so they dont need anymore fans. :rolleyes:

[Winston Wolfe]

It's a scenario so unlikely that it doesn't merit discussion. If Cosworth was the only option to Idiotgrandson, and KK is half the businessman I think he is, the cost to the .1RL for Cosworth products would be considerable so as to maximize the profit for Cosworth. And because Cosworth has the supply and the .1RL has the demand, Cosworth would be in a position to dictate the terms right down to the size of the wrist pins in the engine.

Come to think of it, it kinda like having KK in control of the .1RL's engines. Give the .1RL teams grenades and the CCWS the good stuff for the 500.

Dave, I hear ya on the first part of your post, but disagree on the second portion. Giving out hand grenades to the .1RL teams would be bad for business , since they would be seen by the average race fan as well (granted, not very MANY, but still, not good to see your product exploding, period...... unless you are ACME and you have sold something to Wile E. Coyote !)... Plus, I think KK has a little more up his sleeve that something so transparent that that.... :D

[Methanolandbrats]

Or... another scenario. TG employs Cosworth to build him a low cost spec engine that anyone can buy. Rebuilders are allowed. GM or Toyo may stay or they might bug out anyway. Honda is definitely gone.

Step 2. KK announces his new spec engine for CCWS which, SURPRISE! is the same as the earl is running ....EXCEPT.. a lease program for CCWS participants is far less expensive than what they can get via the earl.

Earl teams migrate to CCWS and only need a chassis to participate in the 500 as they can use their CCWS engine for the race.

Just a thought. Why constant mention of the "500"? It's dead. It's history. Why should anyone care about racing in front of a couple hundred thousand drunken, sister ****ing retards in that wall slapping, Jim Nabors horse**** oval race. Could we just move on and build a new road course and street race series.

[Jag_Warrior]

Not like I'm dreaming up survival ideas for the IRL, but how much horsepower do Grand Am engines put out?

[nrc]

Not like I'm dreaming up survival ideas for the IRL, but how much horsepower do Grand Am engines put out?

150



Okay, actually according to Toyota their Lexus engine makes 500 horsepower at 8,000 rpm. Oh look, I'm all tingly with excitement. :shakehead

[FRANKY]

Autoweek (http://www.autoweek.com/article.cms?articleId=101332)


"As for GM, Barnhart remains perturbed with how Doug Duchardt, the head of GM Racing, spoke of the IRL’s problems in a teleconference with national media last month. Duchardt said the IRL’s declining television ratings, its still-low attendance at races, and a general lack of value in Tony George’s series were at the root of the manufacturer’s decision to depart. Duchardt also said Honda, and Toyota to a lesser extent, have driven up the cost of participating."

:laugh:

It continues:

The latter got all eight of Barnhart’s cylinders firing.

“A good portion of that we have zero control over,” he claimed, citing team subsidies in general and Honda’s estimated $18 million commitment to Andretti Green Racing in particular. “How can I control that? How can I stop that?”

Replied Clarke: “I don’t see how the IRL, Formula One or anyone else can control that. It’s driven by competition and perceived value by the manufacturers.”

But what Brian doesn't get is that it's not the money Honda is handing out, but the dollars needed to run, expensive unreusable parts. I think Joebob touched on it elsewhere. Bottom line is that poor ratings, poor attendance and expensive costs never adds up.

[Jag_Warrior]

500hp, huh? Well, other than 500 pound NASCAR engines, what are their options? GM is definitely gone. With its diminished value, I don't see anyone else coming in. Why would they? It's not worth the investment.

But if they go this route, Honda will leave. And if they don't go this route, Toyota will leave... and GM will stay gone. I'm glad that Ford has stuck around for CCWS, but it's the exception for a manufacturer to race against itself these days. I figure Judd has already been down this path with CART, and wouldn't step in a similar pile with the IRL. There are other (smaller) companies out there building purpose built (non-stock car) engines, but... seems like Tonholio may have dug his own grave on this one.

Even if they get engines, the teams that he had come over from CART, and kill off his loyal Brownshirts, are only in it for the cash. If they wanted to pay their own way, they'd have stayed in CART.

Hey Tony, someone's knocking at the door. Some dude says he wants to discuss your engine situation with you.
http://www.fnt3.com/death2.jpg

[mapguy]

A good portion of that we have zero control over,” he claimed, citing team subsidies in general and Honda’s estimated $18 million commitment to Andretti Green Racing in particular. “How can I control that? How can I stop that?”

But... but... but... spook told us that there was NO Honda money involved in Andretti the lessor buying Team Green.

[cart7]

Honda's AGR commitment - $18 million.
and I'll bet the
7-11, Archipeligo and Jim Beams combined commitment to AGR - $18,000.

You're right mappy, I do remember spook blathering that crap even though none of it added up.



:shakehead

[DagoFast]

FTG just dosent get it. Racing is fueled with MONEY. If he mandated Safeway shopping carts powered by Briggs & Stratton engines, the BEST teams with the MOST money would still win.

So, what he needs to do is simply what fonda and fyoder have done. Buy the teams himself. Then he can supply the equipment and personel in whatever fair and equitable manner he see's fit!

I'm sure mommy and the sistah's would be willing to match fonda's wallet, and we already know Fmikey and Fbr don't care who's name is on the check :rofl:

[Redwing]

FTG just dosent get it. Racing is fueled with MONEY. If he mandated Safeway shopping carts powered by Briggs & Stratton engines, the BEST teams with the MOST money would still win.

So, what he needs to do is simply what fonda and fyoder have done. Buy the teams himself. Then he can supply the equipment and personel in whatever fair and equitable manner he see's fit!

I'm sure mommy and the sistah's would be willing to match fonda's wallet, and we already know Fmikey and Fbr don't care who's name is on the check :rofl:

Right. And the manufacturers would build powered shopping carts if they knew people would show up to watch.

[bdogg187]

Right. And the manufacturers would build powered shopping carts if they knew people would show up to watch.

Sadly I think most IRL types would show up to the five-hunnert even if they were racing shopping carts. :gomer: