ISC buys Staten Island land

[Wheel-Nut]

http://sports.iwon.com/news/12162004/v1358.html


3/4 mile track. :thumdown:

[Methanolandbrats]

No way in hell to get that many people in and out of there.

[lone_groover]

You kid'n me? Fuggedaboutit!

:)

[Andrew Longman]

No way in hell to get that many people in and out of there.

I don't know. Traffic sucks there all the time but people deal with it. I'm sure more than 100K people siphon on and off Staten Island every workday.

What I'm mostly surprised by is that it is only a 3/4 mile track and that it is so close to the city. NYC has 13 million people and is among the most diverse cities in the world. So diverse that it can support an all night Cajun/Vietnamese resturant, so I'm sure a few NASCAR fans can be found. I just think ISC'd do better to move into the "redder" areas surrounding the city. Those are the folks going to Riverhead, Wall, New Egypt, Mahoning, Williams Grove, Syracuse, Pocono, etc.

Half the folk in the city don't even own cars and I believe if they do have an interest in cars it is more in the areas of import tuners, drifting, F1 or road racing.

So why force yourself into a small property (for a racetrack) within the boroughs of NYC that can't be used to anything but oval stock car racing?

Perhaps it just more of NASCAR's desire for legitamacy along the lines of bringing there awards banquet north.

[Racewriter]

Here is a list of the failed racetracks built by ISC:









That's pretty much it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I'd much rather them build a 3/4 mile track instead of another boring 1.5 mile trioval.

[FRANKY]

Here is a list of the failed racetracks built by ISC:









That's pretty much it.
:thumbup:

[Andrew Longman]

Here is a list of the failed racetracks built by ISC:









That's pretty much it.

You forgot Nazareth. But it failed for reasons that have little to do with ISC, namely the demise of open wheel racing, too few seat and no room to expand, and a quirky (but neat) layout that too many people didn't like.

But no doubt this NYC track will succeed. Only .008% of NYers need to show up to make it a success. Besides the juggernaught that is NASCAR and the bucks at their disposal will make nearly anything succeed. But they paid more than they might have, and have a more limited facility than if they had put it elsewhere.

[Racewriter]

You forgot Nazareth. But it failed for reasons that have little to do with ISC, namely the demise of open wheel racing, too few seat and no room to expand, and a quirky (but neat) layout that too many people didn't like.


I didn't forget Nazareth. They didn't build it - it was the white elephant in the Penske Speedways buyout.

But, you've got the causes of death nailed pretty well. I think if you took any one of those causes away, it would be just fine. Rumor has it that there is a lease negotiation ongoing with a promoter who wants to run it, more as a 'big short-track' rather than a small superspeedway. Modifieds, late models, etc. I think that would work nicely - have events where 10K attendance is a good day, and it'll go on into the future.

[DaveL]

According to my sources, they will holding races for NYC cab drivers. The last cabbie standing wins.

[FRANKY]

You forgot Nazareth. But it failed for reasons that have little to do with ISC, namely the demise of open wheel racing, too few seat and no room to expand, and a quirky (but neat) layout that too many people didn't like.

But no doubt this NYC track will succeed. Only .008% of NYers need to show up to make it a success. Besides the juggernaught that is NASCAR and the bucks at their disposal will make nearly anything succeed. But they paid more than they might have, and have a more limited facility than if they had put it elsewhere.

Nextel Cup will make it beome a success.

[nrc]

Nextel Cup will make it beome a success.

By the time they turn a wheel there it won't be Nextel Cup.

[Andrew Longman]

I didn't forget Nazareth. They didn't build it - it was the white elephant in the Penske Speedways buyout.

But, you've got the causes of death nailed pretty well. I think if you took any one of those causes away, it would be just fine. Rumor has it that there is a lease negotiation ongoing with a promoter who wants to run it, more as a 'big short-track' rather than a small superspeedway. Modifieds, late models, etc. I think that would work nicely - have events where 10K attendance is a good day, and it'll go on into the future.

ISC thought enough of it to buy it, but it may have simply been the necessary wart in an otherwise desirable deal for Penske properties. Nevertheless, they couldn't make it work, even if it is a nitpick.

I like the ideas for making Naz a success on a smaller scale. The modifieds and silvercrown races there we're consistently the better races. And the racing crowd in the NE is more rooted in that than NASCAR anyway. Rip up the asphalt and put down dirt it would be even more popular (but not for me)

I think to make it work though they'd need to put lights in and race Fri or Sat nights. Even then, I worry that racing in these parts is pretty much dying. Flemington and East Windsor are gone and no one cared. No body cared that Nazareth closed, though they got a nice crowd (finally) for the last IRL race there. Wall, New Egypt and Mahoning are successful but much smaller scale operations than anything they would put on even at a scaled down Nazareth. And in the end it is still a narrow quirky track that really test drivers, but doesn't make many fans (or wanker drivers) happy.

[JohnHKart]

According to my sources, they will holding races for NYC cab drivers. The last cabbie standing wins.


That's funny you mention, I didn't know this but saw on the news yesterday that Nextel originally was a taxi cab communications company...hence the colors of the corporate logo. I'm really really glad to see another short track built....Yahoo!!! Thank god not another Charlotte/Michigan replica. :thumbup:

John

[Steve99]

Nextel Cup will make it beome a success.

Or will that be the Sprint Cup?

[FRANKY]

By the time it's they turn a wheel there it won't be Nextel Cup.

I agree. I use Sprint myself.
:thumbup:

[extramundane]

I agree. I use Sprint myself.
:thumbup:

I don't think he was referring to the series sponsor...

[FRANKY]

I don't think he was referring to the series sponsor...

Well he wasn't talking about the IRL or CART. NASCAR is a very healthy organization. They aren't going away anytime soon.

[DaveL]

I say bring back the figure 8 racing from Islip. Does anyone if that dump still exists?

[extramundane]

Well he wasn't talking about the IRL or CART. NASCAR is a very healthy organization. They aren't going away anytime soon.

Hubris is dangerous. They're headed full-speed into oversaturation.

What always follows a boom?

[Andrew Longman]

I say bring back the figure 8 racing from Islip. Does anyone if that dump still exists?

Islip is gone. I remember it well from ABCs Wide World of Sports as a kid. But further out on Long Island, Riverhead is still there running modifieds and late models (on ovals) on Saturday night and usually throwing in a figure 8 race too.

I've gone a few times and the nuttiest part is the flagman who waves the green standing on the track as they approach the crossover then turns and runs like hell for for the T1 wall, waving the flag above his head as the cars bear down from behind. He always makes it over the wall just in time (so far).

Nuts! Always a good crowd, but Monaco it is not.

[FRANKY]

Hubris is dangerous. They're headed full-speed into oversaturation.

What always follows a boom?

There is a difference between a decline and demise. You can see realignment has taken place for a reason. But ratings and attendance is still far far above open wheel and they are still around, for awhile longer.

[Racewriter]

Hubris is dangerous. They're headed full-speed into oversaturation.

What always follows a boom?

Keeep hoping..... :shakehead

[extramundane]

Keeep hoping..... :shakehead

I'm not "hoping" anything. I grew up in SW Virginia and have probably seen as many, if not more, NASCAR races as you. It's simple: TV ratings are below expectations, the "old" fans are turning away left and right. Will the "new" fans sustain its growth? I'm very skeptical.

Like I said: Hubris is dangerous. Am I suggesting that another series will overtake it in 2 years? Of course not. But 6, 8 , 10 years? I seriously doubt NASCAR will be the juggernaut of today. They're moving away from what built them, but when the "fans" in LA, Chicago, etc get tired of it and move on, will those they abandonned in their original base welcome them home?

Shake your head all you want. Just because they're "doing better" than other series doesn't make them infallible and untouchable.

[Skater_36]

I'm not "hoping" anything. I grew up in SW Virginia and have probably seen as many, if not more, NASCAR races as you. It's simple: TV ratings are below expectations, the "old" fans are turning away left and right. Will the "new" fans sustain its growth? I'm very skeptical.

Like I said: Hubris is dangerous. Am I suggesting that another series will overtake it in 2 years? Of course not. But 6, 8 , 10 years? I seriously doubt NASCAR will be the juggernaut of today. They're moving away from what built them, but when the "fans" in LA, Chicago, etc get tired of it and move on, will those they abandonned in their original base welcome them home?

Shake your head all you want. Just because they're "doing better" than other series doesn't make them infallible and untouchable.

I agree with your opinion that NASCAR will see a decline in the coming years. NASCAR has shown that they are all about the money, they have waived tradition for sponsor dollars and put a bad taste in corporate mouths with their overselling of the product. (A classic example of overselling is the victory lane Powerade fiasco.) As far as the fans go I believe many of the new breed of fans are caught up in the hoopla, people that tend to follow trendy activities and may begin following the next big thing when it comes along. Remember Disco?

NASCAR won't go away, but you may not see a bidding war when the TV contracts come up again.

[Racewriter]

The Great Lemming Hope...

That NASCAR will collapse, and all those dumb ol' racers, fans, and corporations will see the error of their ways and embrace the glory that is (IRL or ChampCar, depending on what forum you're on).

Just curious:

Since NASCAR's ratings have grown steadily for the last decade, what "expectations" aren't being met?

If the old fans are "leaving in droves," then who the hell is buying the tickets and watching the races?

[nrc]

Since NASCAR's ratings have grown steadily for the last decade, what "expectations" aren't being met?

Was this year part of the steady growth? Honest question, my vague impression is that they were steady but not growing this year.

Answering my own question:

Every televised sport – including the almighty NFL – saw their TV ratings drop this year. NASCAR's ratings actually grew by an average of approximately five percent, with the season finale at Homestead-Miami Speedway producing overnight ratings more than 40 percent better than a year ago. In addition, officials at Homestead-Miami say requests for media credentials were up more than 100 percent from 2003.

I guess that tells you how much I pay attention to NASCAR.

[Racewriter]

Was this year part of the steady growth? Honest question, my vague impression is that they were steady but not growing this year.

Overall ratings were up 3% for the season. The Chase races, overall, were up 15%, and NASCAR pulled a 6 against the NFL for the finale.

Not too shabby. Keep in mind, they're growing a base of about 6.5 million viewers per race, so it's not like a tenth of a rating point moves the meter much.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yes, I suppose there is always the danger that NASCAR could suffer from overexposure and end up eventually losing popularity, but the Champ Car, IRL, ALMS etc. followers always ignore the fact that none of those series are in a position to pick up the disgruntled fans. If they stop watching NASCAR, they'll probably stop watching racing, period.

[nrc]

Yes, I suppose there is always the danger that NASCAR could suffer from overexposure and end up eventually losing popularity, but the Champ Car, IRL, ALMS etc. followers always ignore the fact that none of those series are in a position to pick up the disgruntled fans. If they stop watching NASCAR, they'll probably stop watching racing, period.

Wouldn't they have to start watching racing before they could stop? :p

[Skater_36]

The Great Lemming Hope...

That NASCAR will collapse, and all those dumb ol' racers, fans, and corporations will see the error of their ways and embrace the glory that is (IRL or ChampCar, depending on what forum you're on).

Just curious:

Since NASCAR's ratings have grown steadily for the last decade, what "expectations" aren't being met?

If the old fans are "leaving in droves," then who the hell is buying the tickets and watching the races?

Racewriter, if you're addressing my post you're missing the point. In my post I was not inferring that NASCAR would collapse and open wheel would pick up the fans, that's delusional thinking and would not happen, different "fan" altogether. What I was stating is that NASCAR is overexposed, they've been putting the logo on everything from toilet tissue to trucks. Many of their so called fans are merely caught up in the hype and won't be there long term. I've also read that the TV numbers are not where the networks need them to be so that they can turn an acceptable profit after paying out the huge dollars. What I'm saying is NASCAR has peaked and like every media sensation will decline but unlike many fads they will not just go away.

[extramundane]

The Great Lemming Hope...

That NASCAR will collapse, and all those dumb ol' racers, fans, and corporations will see the error of their ways and embrace the glory that is (IRL or ChampCar, depending on what forum you're on).

Just curious:

Since NASCAR's ratings have grown steadily for the last decade, what "expectations" aren't being met?

If the old fans are "leaving in droves," then who the hell is buying the tickets and watching the races?

Ratings were up slightly this year, but it was the first year under a new format. Time will tell whether it's a format which will sustain itself.

Let's put it this way: I've been to every Martinsville race for the last ~10 years. Every square inch of seating was occupied a few years ago. Not so anymore. Not to mention the fact that people like my father (aka the people who helped give NASCAR a leg to stand on in the first place) are very unhappy with some of recent changes. Ripple effects often take years to reach their peaks.

If you actually read what some of us were saying, rather than sticking with the "That NASCAR will collapse, and all those dumb ol' racers, fans, and corporations will see the error of their ways and embrace the glory that is (IRL or ChampCar, depending on what forum you're on)" crap, you'd realize some valid points are being made. Let's talk again in a couple years and see where things are.

[FRANKY]

Let's talk again in a couple years and see where things are.


Fair enough.

[Andrew Longman]

If NASCAR declines I think it will be because of demographics and culture. From the NASCAR races I've attended and the fans I know I think they are into it as much as for the "lifestyle" and worldview it represents as the racing it offers.

The "assault" on "traditional American values" from the post 911 Muslim world, "the hip hop/gangsta culture, the "left-leaning blue states", and the like I think causes some people to hang on tightly to something they feel "comfortably American" about.

Attending a NASCAR race is in many ways akin to a Greatful Dead concert, but with a lot more "Don't Tread on Me" stirred in. Its a statement and an event. Being a NASCAR fan is more about what it is not. It is not Terrell Owens or Jeremey Shockey or just about any pro stick and ball athlete misbehaving on and off the field. It is not Janet Jackson violating the national holiday we call the Super Bowl (no one singing the National Anthem at the Daytona 500 or trophy girl will have a wardrobe malfunction).

Please don't confuse my obsevation of others' values as my own. I'm not a xenophobe. I'm not even a NASCAR fan. Not that NASCAR fans are necessarily xenophobes, but I am observant and understanding of their reaction to the turbulent times we live in.

Now that all said, I know many long time NASCAR fans in their 40's that are getting fed up with the soaring cost, greater NASCAR control and restrictions put on fans, and general "corporatizing" of the race experience. They hate that Toyota is coming. It just doesn't fit with their self image at a race. As these folks age they will be less inclined to spend dollars on racing that they are coming to like less. And the generation behind them is much more diverse and generally less inclined to be motivated by what will become distant memories of a generally narrow American point of view defined by race, geography, religion, and gender/orientation. If they like NASCAR or racing at all, it will be because of the entertainment it offers, not the self-image it is validating.

[Racewriter]

Let's talk again in a couple years and see where things are.

Fine by me. The NASCAR-haters are about 0 for 587 on predicting the downfall (spanning the last several years), we should be well over 1,000 by then.