Speaking Of "The Others"...

[NismoZ]

The JGTC guys visit Fontana this weekend in their long-awaited American debut. Richard Lyons was fastest in both early practice sessions in the NismoZ :cool: Would love to see this double champ in ChampCar next season. SPEED is to air this "early in the new year." I will be anxious to see and hear these machines, as they look very impressive. I recommend the JGTC.com site and it's impressive 7 min. video intro to the series, especially to those unfamiliar with it. ALMS GTS competitors were invited to compete, but I don't know if any will be involved. At least that gives a sense of the competition level of these cars, advertised as "The world's fastest GTs!" :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

It appears that this guy below and about 3 US 911s showed up, but they are all off the pace and probably wont be allowed to race.

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/scca-wc/2004/sp/sccawc-2004-sp-jh-0630.jpg

Oh yeah, and check out the pit board from one of the 350Z teams:

http://www.phidong.com/jgtc/jgtc10.jpg

[FCYTravis]

Uh, Sean, that's a 928, not a 911 :)

[Ziggy]

I thought they quit making 928's???????

Is this a class where you can run anything? They should get a 962 or be real cool and trot out a 917

[FCYTravis]

They did quit making 928s - a long time ago, in fact. But through this season they were legal in limited competition in the SCCA SPEED World Challenge GT championship.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Uh, Sean, that's a 928, not a 911 :)

That is why I said "It appears that this guy below and about 3 US 911s showed up." :D

There is a 968 that runs in the series, I don't know if it is here this weekend or not. It is very wild looking.

I have no idea what the limitations are for age, since the Supra and RX-7 still run in the series despite being out of production, but for this race they opened it up to ALMS GTS, GT, Trans-Am, Grand-Am GT, and SPEED World Challenge cars to enter as well.

[NismoZ]

Yeah, I think Chevrolet missed the boat here. The "500" in the GT500 class stands for 500hp. What do the GTS 'Vettes make? Lyons just grabbed the pole. Live timing and scoring at www.JGTC.net. Race up next! Go NismoZ! :)

[NismoZ]

Notice the tire/cone "chicane" at turn 1 in that 2nd pic. Yuk! Bring these babies to ROAD AMERICA!! (They also run in Korea next season...with ChampCar? It'd be a real good idea!)

[extramundane]

Yeah, I think Chevrolet missed the boat here. The "500" in the GT500 class stands for 500hp. What do the GTS 'Vettes make? Lyons just grabbed the pole. Live timing and scoring at www.JGTC.net. Race up next! Go NismoZ! :)

500HP is roughly the minimum HP that a GT500 car makes. The GT1 Vettes would have had to run in ALMS/ACO trim and would have had their rears handed to them.

That's why no serious US competitors showed up.

And there are serious rumors that either the Fontana race will move to Laguna next year and/or a 2nd date will be added elsewhere.

[Sean O'Gorman]

http://img146.exs.cx/img146/7384/group28az.jpg

OMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMGOMG look!!! Fans!!! 28-40k of them, depending on who you ask!!! Second only to NASCAR at Fontana for 2004!!! Young fans too, with lots of money to spend!!! Look, they are completely disinterested in Champ Car!!! And it isn't a street course!!!

And they had 86 vendors, several of which were not even racing related!!! And they made an attempt at an actual connection between the participants and the spectatorsthat was more involved than a $100 1 lap pace car ride or changing a tire on a show car!!!

This should be a kick in the ass for Champ Car, to see how to market road racing.

[racer2c]

[IMG]



This should be a kick in the ass for Champ Car, to see how to market road racing.

They should bury their product in the flavor of the month, ;20 something; car trends mini-events just to get bodies through the turnstiles? How does that differ from the 'urban event' demographic at street races. Neither demographic knows a Champ Car from an ice cream truck.
At least the 'uban event' ticket buyer knows that they are there to see something called a Champ Car, as opposed to the proposed alternative group who are pizzed off that they ticket price is higher for something they aren't going to stick around for anyway.

[Sean O'Gorman]

They should bury their product in the flavor of the month, ;20 something; car trends mini-events just to get bodies through the turnstiles? How does that differ from the 'urban event' demographic at street races. Neither demographic knows a Champ Car from an ice cream truck.
At least the 'uban event' ticket buyer knows that they are there to see something called a Champ Car, as opposed to the proposed alternative group who are pizzed off that they ticket price is higher for something they aren't going to stick around for anyway.

That isn't what I'm saying at all. I'm saying they need to build a demand for their product before they start sending it overseas.

There was a huge demand for JGTC to come to America. If I lived within 4 hrs of Fontana, I would've gone too. The fans there knew all the cars, many of the drivers, etc. Meanwhile, nobody in Korea or Argentina gives a damn about Champ Car, and you know it.

[theunions]

Oh yeah, and check out the pit board from one of the 350Z teams:

http://www.phidong.com/jgtc/jgtc10.jpg

so...when does Teresa sic her lawyers on them? :gomer:

[RichK]

I believe St. Dale's number 3 leaned forward, not backwards.

[Turn7]

http://www.u2racing.com/dale_sr.jpg

Depended on what side of the car you were looking at. I think it leaned with the top toward the front of the vehicle.

[RichK]

Depended on what side of the car you were looking at. I think it leaned with the top toward the front of the vehicle.

Ha ha, you are quicker with the image finding than I am! I always thought the number on each side was the same....

[Michaelhatesfans]

Uh, Sean, that's a 928, not a 911 :)
I never warmed to that Pacer-ish greenhouse at the rear.

[RichK]

Great article at SpeedTV.com HERE (http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/14453/)

[L1P1]

I've been trying to vett their claims such as "Actually, these tin-top cars we race are very, very close in lap times to very fast formula cars." I found only two tracks where I can find a basis for comparison.

Going by qualifying (pole) times, it appears that at Sepang, the JGTC (http://www.jgtc.net/race/2004/04rd3/043qual.shtm) are nearly 30 seconds off the pace from F1 (http://www.newsonf1.com/2004/races/malaysia/qres.htm).

At Fontana, the JGTC (http://www.jgtc.net/race/2004/04rx1/04x1qual.shtm) are actually seven seconds faster than GrandAm DPs (http://www.theracesite.com/index.cfm?template=04results_view&fri=3995).

Of course, there are questions of course configuration. Can anyone shed any further light on this?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Not sure about Sepang, but I was told that JGTC ran a different configuration at Fontana than Grand-Am did. Of course, the JGTC GT500 cars are faster than the DPs, but they are also likely faster than ALMS GTS and LMP2 cars. Think of them as prototypes with bodywork that vaguely resembles a road car.

When they say formula cars, my guess is they are talking about Japanese F3 or maybe Formula Nippon.

[Winston Wolfe]

I've been trying to vett their claims such as "Actually, these tin-top cars we race are very, very close in lap times to very fast formula cars." I found only two tracks where I can find a basis for comparison.

Going by qualifying (pole) times, it appears that at Sepang, the JGTC (http://www.jgtc.net/race/2004/04rd3/043qual.shtm) are nearly 30 seconds off the pace from F1 (http://www.newsonf1.com/2004/races/malaysia/qres.htm).

At Fontana, the JGTC (http://www.jgtc.net/race/2004/04rx1/04x1qual.shtm) are actually seven seconds faster than GrandAm DPs (http://www.theracesite.com/index.cfm?template=04results_view&fri=3995).

Of course, there are questions of course configuration. Can anyone shed any further light on this?

I was at Fontucky for the Grand - Sham last year, and was there for the JGTC this year.

The JGTC ran what I consider to be the MOtorcycle course, while the Grand Sham took the SCCA course, which does not inculde the T1 entry chicane, the half way through T1 entry to the infield road course and therefore, slower AVG speed.

Nevertheless, the JGTC was a good effort, and the drifting drew a pretty big crowd.

'Nuff said.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Nevertheless, the JGTC was a good effort, and the drifting drew a pretty big crowd.

Actually, from what I understand, the JGTC was much more popular than the drifting. This is a very good sign, as it is usually the exact opposite when the drifters show up at a road racing event. Drifting is for retards.

[G.]

Actually, from what I understand, the JGTC was much more popular than the drifting. This is a very good sign, as it is usually the exact opposite when the drifters show up at a road racing event. Drifting is for retards.
OK. I admit it. What the hell is drifting?

Also, why would cars limited to either 300 or 500 HP be so much faster than ALMS GTS cars? Weight? I did a quick search on ALMS specs, but came up empty.

(I swear I'm not an idiot, this post be damned!)

:gomer: <<<<<----- me. Be gentle.

[Ankf00]

:gomer: <<<<<----- me. Be gentle.

knowing OGorman, you forgot the lube. :eek:

[Winston Wolfe]

OK. I admit it. What the hell is drifting?

Also, why would cars limited to either 300 or 500 HP be so much faster than ALMS GTS cars? Weight? I did a quick search on ALMS specs, but came up empty.

(I swear I'm not an idiot, this post be damned!)

:gomer: <<<<<----- me. Be gentle.


I'm sure there are websites to explain, but my version is this....
Take a bunch of rear wheel drive, late model Japanese coupes and sports cars (240SX, Old School Corollas, Supras, really ANY old JDM RWD cars), and then put a silly, oversized turbo on a pumped up 4 cyl engine, or 6 cyl engine, and then modify the rear suspension so that it is really "stiff", and put on big fat tires on oversized (but not 'bling-bling' style) wheels, and then set up a course where you dont spend much time in a straight line, and the drivers uses liberal doses of oversteer, and throttle to drive through the course at the greatest and most dramatic drift angle, or sideways for both style and points.
Short version: Drive sideways as fast as you can and imagine it was like when you first learned to drive and you took your dad's car down to a vacant lot in the winter when it snowed and you practice opposite lock and oversteer. Except you are driving a modified car and you are probably spending a whole lot of $$$ on tires.
Make sense ?

[Sean O'Gorman]

OK. I admit it. What the hell is drifting?

Also, why would cars limited to either 300 or 500 HP be so much faster than ALMS GTS cars? Weight? I did a quick search on ALMS specs, but came up empty.

(I swear I'm not an idiot, this post be damned!)

:gomer: <<<<<----- me. Be gentle.

The 300 and 500 hp numbers that JGTC claims are pretty inaccurate. I don't know why they still use those terms. The cars are very exotic, semi-tube frame with lots of carbon fiber, and inboard suspension.

Drifting is to racing what figure skating is to ice racing. It is just a show of cars going sideways, and being judged on it to rank the competitors and determine the winner. While it is huge amongst the import fanboys, they are more into the "JDM" image than anything else, which is why they boo the Vipers and the GTOs that are at the events. Nevermind the fact that the Viper (piloted by a Swede) won the Formula D championship, and the GTO is driven by rally driver Rhys Millen. :rolleyes:

The stupid annoying drift fans like to speak in broken English, even if they are white and born in America, and use Japanese terms whenever possible. You can't say hatchback, you have to say hachiroku. It isn't an MR2, it is a 3S-GTE SW20 Gen II. And the Japanese drivers are always supposed to be better than Americans, because they (specifically Keichi Tsuchiya) "invented" drifting while doing touge (pronounced too-gay...I'm not making this up) runs down mountains. :rolleyes: Oh yeah, and they are easy to rip off, because they'll spend $2500 on a crappy set of coilovers with soft spring rates and inadequate damping rates, instead of $800 for a good set of Koni shocks and Eibach springs with custom rates.

I will give those who put on drift events credit, at least they know how to market a series to fans, unlike the backward thinking morons at Champ Car, ALMS, IRL, SCCA, etc. I think it is sad that this stuff is so popular, while American road racing has such a tiny fanbase and is ignored by sponsors.

"Slide or die y0!"

http://www.dgtrials.com/gallery/albums/DGEvents/br032704/17.JPG

[FRANKY]

I think it's the third step behind skateboards and bicycles.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I think it's the third step behind skateboards and bicycles.

It is a shame that karting couldn't fit in there, after bicycles. Oh wait, it could, if anyone in the karting community had an interest in the sport beyond living vicariously through their sons. :rolleyes:

[G.]

Thanks, SOG and WW for the 'splainin'.

Now that I know what it is, I really do not feel bad for my ignorance!


Drifting is to racing what figure skating is to ice racing. :laugh:

[Ankf00]

I think it's the third step behind skateboards and bicycles.
hey b#tch, lay off the bikes :p

[theunions]

I think it is sad that this stuff is so popular, while American road racing has such a tiny fanbase and is ignored by sponsors.

:thumbup:

Drifting here is HUGE to the detriment of any other form of motorsports, amateur or otherwise, which is all the more reason why every live sighting of a rice burner makes me want to vomit.

And there's one perenially parked right down the street from me...

[NismoZ]

No, but it does to HORDES of crazy youngsters especially in So Cal and esp. of Asian and Hispanic decent. Just keep in mind our call for MARKETING and check the way the wind is blowing. I'm not saying DO what they do or to even like it, but I think JGTC is the next ( marketing-logical) step up from drifting and it will suck those young fans along, all the way to ChampCar, if CC is wise enough to forge a relationship. It wasn't just wishful thinking on my part, I really think someone in CC should go after Richard Lyons right NOW and maybe even give another look to Michael Krumm and CERTAINLY to one or two of SEVERAL very talented Japanese drivers. I heard 30,000+ for the GT race and 15k for the drifting. Look, if ChampCar is serious about Korea and maybe China, how are they going to ignore Japan? The connection seems obvious to me. As I said earlier, I look forward to SPEED's coverage "early in the new year" and hope the series can do TWO here next year. I'm as sportscar crazy as the rest of you, but watching 5 GTPs and 5 GTs's at RA didn't exactly fill me with confidence for an expanding ALMS. I'd LOVE to see 40 of these GTs coming down into 5, though! :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

No, but it does to HORDES of crazy youngsters especially in So Cal and esp. of Asian and Hispanic decent. Just keep in mind our call for MARKETING and check the way the wind is blowing. I'm not saying DO what they do or to even like it, but I think JGTC is the next ( marketing-logical) step up from drifting and it will suck those young fans along, all the way to ChampCar, if CC is wise enough to forge a relationship. It wasn't just wishful thinking on my part, I really think someone in CC should go after Richard Lyons right NOW and maybe even give another look to Michael Krumm and CERTAINLY to one or two of SEVERAL very talented Japanese drivers. I heard 30,000+ for the GT race and 15k for the drifting. Look, if ChampCar is serious about Korea and maybe China, how are they going to ignore Japan? The connection seems obvious to me. As I said earlier, I look forward to SPEED's coverage "early in the new year" and hope the series can do TWO here next year. I'm as sportscar crazy as the rest of you, but watching 5 GTPs and 5 GTs's at RA didn't exactly fill me with confidence for an expanding ALMS. I'd LOVE to see 40 of these GTs coming down into 5, though! :)

Shh, you can't say stuff like that around here. There can be no Champ Car connections to Japan, they are evil and they destroyed the sport and we didn't need them in the first place. :rolleyes: :p

[NismoZ]

Oh, yeah...how soon I forgot the bad old days! So, when do we get another race in Detroit? " The Cosworth/PI Engineering Ford All American Grand Prix of Detroit!" ;)

[L1P1]

Drifting is for retards.

:laugh: Can we do sigs on this board? 'Cause I think that just became mine.