NASCAR Champs In The 24 Hours

[DaveL]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/roadracing/14452/

You can criticize the cars all you want, Grand Am is doing something right. Back the 80s drivers from all walks of racing competed in the race and it looks like those days are coming back.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Terry and Bobby Labonte are buying a Doran and running it in the 24h (as well as several other raceS) this season.

[DaveL]

Terry and Bobby Labonte are buying a Doran and running it in the 24h (as well as several other raceS) this season.

They need a 3rd driver for the 24. Any word on who?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Justin Labonte maybe? I have no idea, I guess we'll find out soon enough. I think they plan on running the other Daytona race, a Watkins Glen round, and Barber.

[Railbird]

The inclusion of Cup drivers will spike the Daytona ratings but we'll have to see if a healthy field of non Cup drivers will draw interest the rest of the season.

The Labontes entering a few more might be just the start of using off-weekend NASCAR participants to draw interest.

I like the car count no matter where the drivers come from, I just have a hard time with the ugly rear engine stock cars.

[RacinM3]

I have issues with Grand Am but overall the fields are strong and the racing's pretty good. I'd drive in it if I could.

But posting this is like deja vu (all over again) :)

[Methanolandbrats]

No matter how many crackers are piloting those ****boxes it will not be the "good ol days". Not even close.

[Railbird]

http://www.riekmann.prohosting.com/magazin/Gerry%20Steiner/Ol_Yaller.jpg

[Sean O'Gorman]

I'd drive in it if I could.

Shh, don't say that out loud. The armchair racers will start calling you a pretend BS racer wannabe. :p

[DaveL]

I like the car count no matter where the drivers come from, I just have a hard time with the ugly rear engine stock cars.

Those are my thoughts. Look, we'd all love to see the GTPs come back but that's not realistic. I don't think anyone thinks the cars all that great looking, but Grand Am is putting a lot of DPs on the track and in that respect it's successful and doing its job.

In regards to the Roush drivers and the Multimatic Ford, given his on track temperment Kenseth will make a heckuva endurance driver. And few men know more about winning the 24hrs more than Jack Roush. I'm surprised Mark Martin isn't in the mix. He is a former class winner with Roush.

[theunions]

And few men know more about winning the 24hrs more than Jack Roush. I'm surprised Mark Martin isn't in the mix.

At some time this year (I think on WindTunnel, just before his Cup retirement tour was announced) he expressed an interest in doing endurance racing after stopping Cup, but I don't think he necessarily specified GrandAm, the Rolex 24, or anything else.

[DaveL]

At some time this year (I think on WindTunnel, just before his Cup retirement tour was announced) he expressed an interest in doing endurance racing after stopping Cup, but I don't think he necessarily specified GrandAm, the Rolex 24, or anything else.

I can't see it being with anyone but with Roush so if he does do it he'd be in Grand Am with him. There's nothing in ALMS for Roush.

The 24hrs is going to have a huge field. The Grand Am site lists 30+ DPs alone with assigned numbers. I judge based on results, and Grand Am is delivering what the competitors want, no matter how ugly we think the cars are.

[Ziggy]

MacDonalds sells alot of hamburgers

They must be good :laugh:

[chop456]

MacDonalds sells alot of hamburgers

They must be good :laugh:

Bingo.

I have a Porsche poster from the '86 race listing the top 10(?) finishing teams. Compare that field to this year's and get back to me.

Maybe they could go one step further and give the Friends cast a ride. :rolleyes:

Snake oil.

[Sean O'Gorman]

So if the guy across the street sets up shop and only sells 4 burgers, does that mean his are automatically better than McDonald's?

[chop456]

Flawed analogy.

NASCAR drivers filling the field is a recipe for gaining an audience, not making something great again. A field full of ugly cars driven by "popular" drivers who aren't road racers isn't something I need to watch.

I know where to find a good hamburger, and it isn't where Goober and his 25 million cousins eat. Some people are happy with the way Grand Am is going. To those people I say enjoy your Big Mac.

The crowd at Sebring this year will probably be triple what Daytona pulls. You can't play the "event fan" card with that comparison, either. Daytona used to be mega. Now, no one cares. Sounds familiar, huh?

Nice try, though. :D

[Jervis Tetch 1]

What's to criticize? I applaud the moves. It's good racing and a helluva fun time. I know. I've been there. :thumbup:

[DaveL]

MacDonalds sells alot of hamburgers

They must be good :laugh:

It means they are offering a product wanted by the market.

The critics here are not the ones who participate in endurance racing. It's easy to take pot shots at Grand Am when you're not the one spending the money to put an endurance racing car on the track with the intention of winning at a cost in line with what sponsors are willing to pay. The people who are actually competing in the sport want what Grand Am is offering. Laugh all you want, it's a success.

Unless you think 5 LMPs and a couple dozen GTs is the sign of success.

[RichK]

The critics here are not the ones who participate in endurance racing. It's easy to take pot shots at Grand Am when you're not the one spending the money to put an endurance racing car on the track with the intention of winning at a cost in line with what sponsors are willing to pay. The people who are actually competing in the sport want what Grand Am is offering. Laugh all you want, it's a success.


The critics here are also potential customers. The people who are competing in the sport are pretty much the only ones at the track! And this critic (/pointing to self/) isn't defending ALMS by criticizing Grand Am.

[Sean O'Gorman]

The critics here are also potential customers.

You mean the people that bash Grand-Am here are potential Grand-Am or ALMS competitors?

[RichK]

You mean the people that bash Grand-Am here are potential Grand-Am or ALMS competitors?

:saywhat:
No, I meant customers. The people who might pay to go watch a sportscar race.

[DaveL]

:saywhat:
No, I meant customers. The people who might pay to go watch a sportscar race.

If you don't like it don't watch. No one is holding a gun to your head. As it is, outside of Sebring ALMS isn't exactly packing them in and they have a fraction of the cars on the track.

[Skater_36]

MacDonalds sells alot of hamburgers

They must be good :laugh:

You hit the nail on the head. :thumbup:

[RichK]

If you don't like it don't watch. No one is holding a gun to your head. As it is, outside of Sebring ALMS isn't exactly packing them in and they have a fraction of the cars on the track.

I don't. I may watch one day if the cars get faster. I think I'm the type of racing fan they should be going after.

Right now I'd rather watch the same drivers race shifter karts against each other. I'm not kidding, it would be much more entertaining for me to see them driving twitchy, overpowered machines than to see them in the current Grand Am cars.

[DaveL]

Well Rich, if you dislike it so much there's really no use participating in a thread about something you evidently don't care about. This is supposed to be about the NASCAR champs in the 24 hrs, if you're just going to bash Grand Am start a new thread for that purpose and knock yourself out. Same goes for the other critics. Start a new thread. Have fun. I'll stay out.

[RichK]

Looking back on the thread & its original topic, it devolved into another Grand Am argument. I apologize for contributing to that.

Rich

[Sean O'Gorman]

:saywhat:
No, I meant customers. The people who might pay to go watch a sportscar race.

But the customers for sports car racing are the competitors. You raced before, you should know that.

Anyway, I'm not going to contribute to any more fighting in this thread. Back on topic, I think it'll be interesting to see how they do. The Multimatic Focus hasn't run much at all since Daytona '03, but when they brought it out at VIR it was competitive, so who knows. I'm especially excited to see Kenseth driving, like DaveL said, he seems to fit the mold of a good endurance driver.

[RacinM3]

Looking back on the thread it looks like I was the first one to post w/o actually mentioning the topic at hand. I guess I saw what was coming, but that's no excuse, sorry about that. :o

So, I will post something relevant.....IMHO, having NASCAR drivers in these cars CAN do good things for Grand Am and sports car racing in general. I mean, how can putting drivers form the US's most popular race series not help but elevate the sport in the muddled consciousness of the average NASCAR fan (:p )?

I mean, how many of the Champ Car fans would LOVE to see Jeff Gordon in a one-off Champ Car ride, say, at Long Beach? Not because you're a Gordon fan, but because of the exposure it'd bring to Champ Car.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Looking back on the thread it looks like I was the first one to post w/o actually mentioning the topic at hand. I guess I saw what was coming, but that's no excuse, sorry about that. :o

So, I will post something relevant.....IMHO, having NASCAR drivers in these cars CAN do good things for Grand Am and sports car racing in general. I mean, how can putting drivers form the US's most popular race series not help but elevate the sport in the muddled consciousness of the average NASCAR fan (:p )?

I mean, how many of the Champ Car fans would LOVE to see Jeff Gordon in a one-off Champ Car ride, say, at Long Beach? Not because you're a Gordon fan, but because of the exposure it'd bring to Champ Car.

Good points.

Look at it this way, folks. There are basically only two races in the US that drivers from various series could meet together for one race. Daytona or the gomerfest 500. Which would you prefer they run in? :laugh:

[RacinM3]

NASCAR drivers filling the field is a recipe for gaining an audience, not making something great again.

That's an amazing quote when taken in the context that you intended.

I mean, how can you make something great again WITHOUT an audience first?

[chop456]

That's an amazing quote when taken in the context that you intended.

I mean, how can you make something great again WITHOUT an audience first?

If they dumped Grand Am and replaced it with ALMS, it would be great again in my eyes. It doesn't matter how many are watching if I think it's crap. How many million CD's has Britney sold?

Regaining an audience by getting Cletus, Darrell and Darrell to tune in and watch their 'Murrican heroes will not make the race great again for me or anyone else that used to be a fan because of the cars and drivers.

They could get 100K in the stands and have the top 10 NASCAR drivers in the field and I'd rather chew broken glass than watch it.

[RacinM3]

I understand, however reality has set in and has determined that mega-buck prototypes are not the viable way to go sports car racing. This is not unique to the US.

Personally, I'd be ok if all of the prototypes were done away with and the cars were more production based, in fact, a field full of different cars built similarly to the ALMS Corvettes would, IMHO, make for a great series.

As much as I loved the Porsche 956/962, or the Sauber Mercedes from 1988, these cars are simply too expensive and subject the series too much to the whims of the notoriously fickle manufacturers.

If putting NASCAR drivers in gets some money flowing and generates interest, maybe the DSP's can actually start to progress technologically.

The biggest problem here is the NASCAR ownership link and the reality that no matter how big sportscar racing gets, if it ever even came CLOSE to rivalling NASCAR, the owners would squash it. So it appears that as long as NASCAR has a say, sportscar racing will always have a glass ceiling.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If they dumped Grand Am and replaced it with ALMS, it would be great again in my eyes. It doesn't matter how many are watching if I think it's crap. How many million CD's has Britney sold?

Regaining an audience by getting Cletus, Darrell and Darrell to tune in and watch their 'Murrican heroes will not make the race great again for me or anyone else that used to be a fan because of the cars and drivers.

They could get 100K in the stands and have the top 10 NASCAR drivers in the field and I'd rather chew broken glass than watch it.

Once again you are missing the point. It is not about the hardcore sports car racing fan, there are simply not enough of these people! ALMS doesn't realize this, which is why they are running 4 car P1 grids for 8,000 people at Mid-Ohio or Mosport.

The NASCAR drivers like Busch, Kenseth, etc. are brought in simply to help ticket sales at Daytona and Watkins Glen. Grand-Am isn't the NASCARization of sports car racing, it is the result of putting the competitor first. That is what tends to happen when you put people who made their fortunes in racing in charge, instead of those who are using their pharmecutical, Microsoft, stock market, etc. money to run a "professional" series as a hobby.

You can have the greatest cars in the world, but if no one wants to campaign or sponsor one, then they are worthless. Clearly Grand-Am can thrive without a fanbase, as they have dozens of privateers running on their own dime.

[DaveL]

The NASCAR drivers like Busch, Kenseth, etc. are brought in simply to help ticket sales at Daytona and Watkins Glen.

Not necessarily. NASCAR drivers have always been in the 24hrs so this is nothing new. The difference being this time around is simply a better PR machine behind the effort.

[Racewriter]

I believe that Paul Tracy will also be racing in the Rolex. This could be a fun thread to revive come the first of February.

[Racing Truth]

These Grand-Am pizzing contests just amuse me. Yes, we KNOW the cars are ugly, and underpowered, but...


It means they are offering a product wanted by the market.

The critics here are not the ones who participate in endurance racing. It's easy to take pot shots at Grand Am when you're not the one spending the money to put an endurance racing car on the track with the intention of winning at a cost in line with what sponsors are willing to pay. The people who are actually competing in the sport want what Grand Am is offering. Laugh all you want, it's a success.

Unless you think 5 LMPs and a couple dozen GTs is the sign of success.

:thumbup: Furthermore, it isn't dependent on having one car in order to compete. With perhaps the exception of the Fabcar, if you set the car up well, with a good lineup, you can win.

Not so in ALMS. But, oh no, I just don't appreciate the glory of an Audi parade. :rolleyes:

[Racing Truth]

In fact, Don Panoz is the greatest thing to happen... to Grand-Am.

Look, I thought the whole DP concept was cr*p in '03. The more I watched, the more I enjoyed it, despite thinking the cars are fugly.

A 4 car ALMS field isn't doing it for me. Sorry.

[racer2c]

These Grand-Am pizzing contests just amuse me. Yes, we KNOW the cars are ugly, and underpowered, but...



:thumbup: Furthermore, it isn't dependent on having one car in order to compete. With perhaps the exception of the Fabcar, if you set the car up well, with a good lineup, you can win.

Not so in ALMS. But, oh no, I just don't appreciate the glory of an Audi parade. :rolleyes:

I've been drummed out of F1 threads expressing similar sentiments.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Valiente in for the Rolex 24 (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/roadracing/14464/)

Apparently it is still possible for drivers to get rides in some road racing series, without the series needing to go to Korea or Argentina.

[Skater_36]

I understand, however reality has set in and has determined that mega-buck prototypes are not the viable way to go sports car racing. This is not unique to the US.

Personally, I'd be ok if all of the prototypes were done away with and the cars were more production based, in fact, a field full of different cars built similarly to the ALMS Corvettes would, IMHO, make for a great series.

As much as I loved the Porsche 956/962, or the Sauber Mercedes from 1988, these cars are simply too expensive and subject the series too much to the whims of the notoriously fickle manufacturers.

If putting NASCAR drivers in gets some money flowing and generates interest, maybe the DSP's can actually start to progress technologically.

The biggest problem here is the NASCAR ownership link and the reality that no matter how big sportscar racing gets, if it ever even came CLOSE to rivalling NASCAR, the owners would squash it. So it appears that as long as NASCAR has a say, sportscar racing will always have a glass ceiling.


I'm just curious and mean nothing by my question. How long have you been following sportscar racing?

[Racewriter]

I'm just curious and mean nothing by my question. How long have you been following sportscar racing?

I'm not sure "following" is the right word for what RacinM3 does...not to speak for him, he can handle it himself... :rofl:

Hey M3 - have they approved a Zoobaru engine for Grand-Am yet? ;)

Incidentally, I kind of like the Crawford. Good looking car IMO. The GA engine approval system makes a lot of sense to me, too. Wouldn't be too tough to dial in a small-block Chevy (not LS1 type) combination that would make 500 horses, live for 24 hours, and cost around 15K.

[Railbird]

To anwer Skater's question.

My dad took me to an SCCA National event hoping he could check out Ol' Yellar.

Borkawski wasn't there but I got to see some home builts get waxed by a Bird Cage.

Not to hi-jack a thread, but.

If Nascar ever creates a pulse with the Grand Am it might need one less series, particularly one trying to get higher sanctioning fees, at the ISC tracks.

Think about it

[Racewriter]

Not to hi-jack a thread, but.

If Nascar ever creates a pulse with the Grand Am it might need one less series, particularly one trying to get higher sanctioning fees, at the ISC tracks.

Think about it

Thought of that, did ya, Bird?

They have two oars in that water right now...

[L1P1]

I think that bringing in NASCAR stars is a good move for the Frances. Whatever I think about them or any of their properties, it just makes good sense.

I think that where this topic gets derailed is the same thing that derails just about every other argument in motorsport. Without any power struggles, I think any of us could go to any Sprint Car, Atlantic, SCCA, Kart, ALMS, Grand-Am, IRL, FI, BTCC, WRC, JGTC, etc., etc. race and enjoy it for what it is.

But it's not that simple. There is a pecking order. And is the top of it going to be determined by popularity or speed? Corporate power or on/off track ingenuity? Technology or endorsement contracts?

[Sean O'Gorman]

The GA engine approval system makes a lot of sense to me, too. Wouldn't be too tough to dial in a small-block Chevy (not LS1 type) combination that would make 500 horses, live for 24 hours, and cost around 15K.

Yep. Personally, I wish that they'd open things up for a bit more diversity in the engine department. Aside from the underpowered Porsche flat 6, the remaining manufacturers (GM, Ford, BMW, Toyota, Nissan) are all big V-8s. Not that there is anything wrong with that, I love big V-8s, but I think a little more variety would be cool. The high revving Ferrari V-8 is GT legal, as is the 3 rotor Wankel, I'd love to see them in the series. Maybe throw in a few turbo 4-bangers too, they could easily be kept in the 450-500 hp.

I watch racing for the on track action, not the cars, but a wide variety of cool car sounds is always a plus.

The chassis rules could use a bit of work. Right now only seven entrants are allowed in, and no new manufacturers will be approved until a current one drops out. However, the Picchio, Chase, and Multimatics all show up just often enough to stay active, despite the fact that they (excluding the Multimatic, which has shown potential, despite being the most hideous of all the cars) aren't competitive. Meanwhile there are makers waiting on the sidelines. Also, the cars that debuted in 2003, like the Fabcar and the Doran, are behind on the development curve when compared to the '04 cars like the Riley and the Crawford, but they aren't really allowed to update the cars.

[RacinM3]

I'm just curious and mean nothing by my question. How long have you been following sportscar racing?

Not as long as some here. Maybe 1986 or so.


Hey M3 - have they approved a Zoobaru engine for Grand-Am yet?

Not that I know of, but until that sucker has a dry sump and stops roasting rod bearings under high lateral loads it won't really matter if they do.....but I heard the GA folks didn't too much like the car....something about it being too affordable from what I hear.

BTW - that motor with the right turbo and oiling system can easily make 450-500 horsepower, and should be able to do it reliably, too.

[RacinM3]

double post

[manic mechanic]

Well Rich, if you dislike it so much there's really no use participating in a thread about something you evidently don't care about. This is supposed to be about the NASCAR champs in the 24 hrs, if you're just going to bash Grand Am start a new thread for that purpose and knock yourself out. Same goes for the other critics. Start a new thread. Have fun. I'll stay out.

Dave, I only have one query for you:

Can you define the oxymorons "managed competition" and "restricted prototype" without mentioning ISC/NASCAR or the EARL?

I used to enjoy the "24" when the cars were seductive and the engines weren't "legislated out" of their potential.

for these reasons, I can't take GA seriously.

On the other hand, the opportunity for young drivers (Joey Hand and Luis Diaz for example) to drive cars that have as good a chance to win as anyone else out there shows promise.

I may give GA a chance this season if for no other reason than that it will break up the gap between LBGP and San Jose.

manic

[FCYTravis]

Dave, I only have one query for you:

Can you define the oxymorons "managed competition" and "restricted prototype" without mentioning ISC/NASCAR or the EARL?
Sure. What do you think is on the air inlet of every ACO-homologated car?

That's right, an air RESTRICTOR designed to reduce horsepower. Thought your vaunted ALMS was so uber-open? Think again. Where's the ground-effects tunnels? Where's the massive wings? Where's the huge fat tires? What's a minimum weight restriction have to do with prototype building? Why can't you just make it as light as you want? Why do you have to have two roll hoops when one will do? What's with the fuel cell size limitation? Doesn't sound very "prototype" to me.

Face it, there's no such thing as a "sports racing prototype" anymore - if there was, it would look a lot like the old Allard J1X - and those got banned a decade ago. Such a beast would have massive ground effects, active suspension, active differentials, traction control seven ways from Sunday, ABS, a continously variable transmission, linked turbosupercharging, hell, maybe even a hybrid drive, a 90 gallon fuel tank contained within the carbon/Kevlar bodywork in self-sealing hydrocells, heads-up displays, all-wheel-drive and a bunch of stuff I still haven't thought of. Oh, and it would cost $100 million - for a roller.

None of that's legal in Grand-Am. None of that's legal in the ALMS either. So how can you claim that the ALMS is "real sports racing prototypes" and the Grand-Am isn't?

EVERY series manages competition - even the sacred F1 has rules. ALMS has quite a few if you get right down to it - you can't, for example, take an F1 tub, slap fenders on and call it a prototype like you can in SCCA's CSR class - take one Formula Atlantic, add fenders and voila you have a C Sports Racer. No, you have to be "ACO homolgated" - which means building your car to meet the ACO's specific ruleset - and if you don't comply with their RESTRICTIONS, you can't race your car.

Grand-Am's the same way - just a little bit more so, that's all. It's a question of degrees - not of philosophies.

[Sean O'Gorman]

None of that's legal in Grand-Am. None of that's legal in the ALMS either. So how can you claim that the ALMS is "real sports racing prototypes" and the Grand-Am isn't?

Come on Travis, you should know this by now. Clearly ALMS is real and Grand-Am isn't, because ALMS cars are pretty, and Daytona Prototypes have big cockpits. :p

[Skater_36]

I'm not sure "following" is the right word for what RacinM3 does...not to speak for him, he can handle it himself... :rofl:

.

That's great, I'm quite sure there are more than a few here that "do more than follow" but thanks for contributing.

[Skater_36]

To anwer Skater's question.

My dad took me to an SCCA National event hoping he could check out Ol' Yellar.

Borkawski wasn't there but I got to see some home builts get waxed by a Bird Cage.

Not to hi-jack a thread, but.

If Nascar ever creates a pulse with the Grand Am it might need one less series, particularly one trying to get higher sanctioning fees, at the ISC tracks.

Think about it

What's an Ol' Yellar?.....just kidding but I'd bet there are more than a few people here wondering what that car looked like or what it was. How many times have you seen and heard the "prototypes are too expensive" or "that car is too dominant and hurts the competition" statements. I can't even recall how many times I've heard it. The difference this time is that you have a concerted effort by a series/corporation to dominate the racing business and things are getting nastier. Two different approaches to what each series see as what is best.

[RacinM3]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, skater. So you're saying that the "too expensive" and "too dominant" comments have no value?

IMSA's history is one of basically domination followed by manufacturer withdrawal. Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan, and now Audi. And the dominant Audis haven't actually been produced for 2 years. Of the larger carmakers, who's building these prototypes today? Who's planning on building them any time soon?

The underlying reasons for this were sewn before GA became what it is today.

Why?

[Railbird]

I'm not going to totally slam Grand Am, I might even make the MO date, but it does have some heavy Nascar shinanigans that kinda of put me off.

A buddy ofmine was on the original "approved builder" list but was getting to the party a little late as to have their stuff in order. Once Nascar saw they had enough builders to go around, after my friend had a half mil tied up in his effort, they chopped the list to include only those already on the grid.

I figured one of the few pluses of the tube frame deal would be the opp for some true "one-offs" to add a little excitement to this parade of the homely.

One question I had upon viewing the mandated design was "why did they bother with putting the engine in the rear?"

[Skater_36]

I'm not sure where you're going with this, skater. So you're saying that the "too expensive" and "too dominant" comments have no value?

IMSA's history is one of basically domination followed by manufacturer withdrawal. Porsche, Jaguar, Nissan, and now Audi. And the dominant Audis haven't actually been produced for 2 years. Of the larger carmakers, who's building these prototypes today? Who's planning on building them any time soon?

The underlying reasons for this were sewn before GA became what it is today.

Why?

What I'm saying is this is a constant cycle, it's happened before(many times) and it will probably happen again.

F1 is probably the most expensive form of racing on the planet, manufacturers come and go but it still continues on. Sportscars are big globally so they will also continue on. Porsche has been making a few noises about possibly producing another prototype and so has VW. Manufacturers always want to show how great their product is and racing affords an outlet for their creativity. Many manufacturers can only justify a racing program to the BOD by promising to test new technology which will improve the product.

I'm not talking Grand Am vs ALMS, I'm talking about sports car racing worldwide. If history is any indication then there will always be a cycle of manufacturer involvement in sports car racing. The people in Daytona may think they have the miracle cure for racings ailements but a lot of others want a second opinion or perhaps a different medicine. Whatever works best for you is the one you should go with.

[Racing Truth]

If they dumped Grand Am and replaced it with ALMS, it would be great again in my eyes. It doesn't matter how many are watching if I think it's crap. How many million CD's has Britney sold?

Regaining an audience by getting Cletus, Darrell and Darrell to tune in and watch their 'Murrican heroes will not make the race great again for me or anyone else that used to be a fan because of the cars and drivers.

They could get 100K in the stands and have the top 10 NASCAR drivers in the field and I'd rather chew broken glass than watch it.

:saywhat: Woohoo! Yeah, let's have Don Panoz get his hands on the Daytona 24! I mean, he's done such a wonderful job with ALMS. :shakehead

ALMS would make it great? How exactly would it do that, with no cars and little on-track compettition?

Look, I understand where you're coming from, but don't try to infer that ALMS is in a position even resembling greatness.

[pchall]

http://www.riekmann.prohosting.com/magazin/Gerry%20Steiner/Ol_Yaller.jpg


'bird, don't dis Ol' Yaller MKwhatever and the Troutman and Barnes Special by sticking them in a Grand Am thread. ;)

[bdogg187]

I'm not talking Grand Am vs ALMS, I'm talking about sports car racing worldwide. If history is any indication then there will always be a cycle of manufacturer involvement in sports car racing. The people in Daytona may think they have the miracle cure for racings ailements but a lot of others want a second opinion or perhaps a different medicine. Whatever works best for you is the one you should go with.

Grand Am is not the low most miracle cure for Sports car racing any more than IRL was going to be the low cost miracle cure for Indy Racing. Both started as a return to the grassroots of racing, making it affordable, allowing everyone to succeed with a little guy. CART and ALMS are the bad guys, they dont play fair and have priced the little guy out of the game. :cry:

But the IRL fantasy ended, once the big doggs got tired of partying in CART they joined the IRL. They began to work their magic on IRL too. The IRL didnt change much, the big guys drove up the price. Guys like Penske and Ganassi are willing to spend what it takes to win and the cost of competeing against them grows. The Formula makes little difference. It costs $15-20 Million to run a competitive Nextel Cup team, sure you can make the field for faaaar less, but getting lapped by Dale Jr. isnt anymore fun than being lapped by an Audi. The fact is, NASCAR has limited technology, it has killed innovation, but it still requires a boat-load of money to compete. The way NASCAR keeps the huge fields full (and sometimes getting over 50 cars at certain races) is that its ratings continue to grow, and the sponsors continue to get more exposure for their investment.

Now Grand Am is getting more and more competitive, and the NASCAR guys doing the 24 Hours helps with the ratings. But the question is, in 5 years how will the ratings compare to the cost? Clearly Ganassi and Sun Trust racing have entered with big name driver line ups and have the best chassis (and probably most expensive) in the series. The more big name teams that join up, the higher the cost gets. As long as the series is getting more competitive, costs will rise, but popularity must rise with it. If in 5 years, ratings are the same or lower, and costs are increasing, you might see a series that looks like the current ALMS.

[FCYTravis]

You're missing something, bdogg.

NASCAR has been successful at keeping their cost/return ratios in line - just look at Winston-err, Nextel-err, Sextel? Cup. Sure, costs have gone up, but they've made sure the rate of return has gone up even faster.

The IRL hasn't.

If NASCAR can keep Grand-Am's cost/return ratio sane, it'll remain the privateer's playground of choice. The series that's the privateer's playground of choice is the one that's going to have the biggest fields and, most likely, the best racing.

[bdogg187]

If NASCAR can keep Grand-Am's cost/return ratio sane, it'll remain the privateer's playground of choice. The series that's the privateer's playground of choice is the one that's going to have the biggest fields and, most likely, the best racing.

Thats exactly my point, right now, the Cost/return ratio is good, but its very difficult to control cost, maybe impossible. If GARRA imposes more restrictions the teams arent going to give the money back to their sponsors, they find something else to spend it on. I just wonder if GARRA will grow at the rate costs will.

[FCYTravis]

Thats exactly my point, right now, the Cost/return ratio is good, but its very difficult to control cost, maybe impossible. If GARRA imposes more restrictions the teams arent going to give the money back to their sponsors, they find something else to spend it on. I just wonder if GARRA will grow at the rate costs will.
If there's one series in the whole world that has succeded in controlling the cost/return ratio, it's NASCAR. The same people who run NASCAR run Grand-Am. Given their track record, I see little reason to be concerned about Grand-Am's future cost issues.

Could it be a problem in the future? Perhaps. But it is a much more immediate issue happening right now in the ALMS. Costs there are out of control, way beyond the possible returns. Thus, ALMS is struggling.

[manic mechanic]

Grand Am is not the low most miracle cure for Sports car racing any more than IRL was going to be the low cost miracle cure for Indy Racing. Both started as a return to the grassroots of racing, making it affordable, allowing everyone to succeed with a little guy. CART and ALMS are the bad guys, they dont play fair and have priced the little guy out of the game. :cry:

But the IRL fantasy ended, once the big doggs got tired of partying in CART they joined the IRL. They began to work their magic on IRL too. The IRL didnt change much, the big guys drove up the price. Guys like Penske and Ganassi are willing to spend what it takes to win and the cost of competeing against them grows. The Formula makes little difference. It costs $15-20 Million to run a competitive Nextel Cup team, sure you can make the field for faaaar less, but getting lapped by Dale Jr. isnt anymore fun than being lapped by an Audi. The fact is, NASCAR has limited technology, it has killed innovation, but it still requires a boat-load of money to compete. The way NASCAR keeps the huge fields full (and sometimes getting over 50 cars at certain races) is that its ratings continue to grow, and the sponsors continue to get more exposure for their investment.

Now Grand Am is getting more and more competitive, and the NASCAR guys doing the 24 Hours helps with the ratings. But the question is, in 5 years how will the ratings compare to the cost? Clearly Ganassi and Sun Trust racing have entered with big name driver line ups and have the best chassis (and probably most expensive) in the series. The more big name teams that join up, the higher the cost gets. As long as the series is getting more competitive, costs will rise, but popularity must rise with it. If in 5 years, ratings are the same or lower, and costs are increasing, you might see a series that looks like the current ALMS.

Thank You. :thumbup:

manic

[manic mechanic]

If there's one series in the whole world that has succeded in controlling the cost/return ratio, it's NASCAR. The same people who run NASCAR run Grand-Am. Given their track record, I see little reason to be concerned about Grand-Am's future cost issues.

Could it be a problem in the future? Perhaps. But it is a much more immediate issue happening right now in the ALMS. Costs there are out of control, way beyond the possible returns. Thus, ALMS is struggling.

Hey Travis,

If you want to experience ISC from the fan's point of view, I could arrange most of it. I will warn you that you won't be impressed by the "ISC way" where the fans are concerned.

In my experience, if you aren't "working" a NASCAR event, you 'aint getting NO-PLACE...and if the cost escalates in GA like NASCAR, pretty soon there'll be fences between competitors and fans there too.

Happy Holidays,

manic ;)

[FCYTravis]

You don't get "no-place" when you are working a NASCAR event either. We were physically escorted by security whenever we had to enter the garages (safety meetings) and were never allowed to look around.

I didn't say anything about their fan-friendliness or whatever.

What I did say is that everyone who's screaming about "Grand-Am's inevitable cost rise" should be instead complaining about the complete impossibility of affordably campaigning an LMP car in the American Le Mans Series. Quit bitching about what MIGHT hypothetically happen and start worrying about what IS happening - the death of the ALMS by its own hand - the failure of the series to control costs and competition.

How many LMProtos can you count for 2005 right now? Five?

Two Audis, two Dyson Lolas and a Miracle/Bucknum Courage. Yeah, that's a recipe for an exciting season. :shakehead

Look, I love the ALMS. Worked one of their races and was a support series competitor at two more. Love 'em to death. The Four Hours of Laguna Seca at night? Abso-****ing-loutely amazing. Insane, actually. I *WANT* the ALMS to succeed. But if they don't get their act together soon they're up **** Creek with no visible means of propulsion. Using Grand-Am as a scapegoat for the problems the ALMS faces will not solve those problems.

This is just like everyone in the EARL wishing that if CART died all the IRL's problems would go away and everything would be magically happy.

If the Grand-Am disappeared tomorrow, the ALMS would still be facing the exact same problem it faces now - empty prototype grids.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Add Buddy Rice to the list of drivers running:

http://www.theracesite.com/index.cfm?pagetype=2&form_article=8538

Interesting to note as well that Tracy Krohn has dropped his funding of the Gallardo ALMS GTS car to run in a DP instead.

[Methanolandbrats]

Add Buddy Rice to the list of drivers running:

http://www.theracesite.com/index.cfm?pagetype=2&form_article=8538

Interesting to note as well that Tracy Krohn has dropped his funding of the Gallardo ALMS GTS car to run in a DP instead. Well that clinches it, I'm gonna watch if that redneck dickhead has a drive. :D

[Sean O'Gorman]

Just look at it this way. He is one more IRL driver for PT to potentially punt. :D

[Railbird]

I'll be watching

Just like watchin' an Anna Nichol Smith highlite waitin' for the occasional boob flop.

Cheesey but entertaining.

[Ziggy]

Dang 'bird, double down on the Wallen video's :)

[Racing Truth]

Just look at it this way. He is one more IRL driver for PT to potentially punt. :D

:laugh: :laugh:

Oh, and Sean, your boy Max Papis is involved as well. ;)

A bit disturbing about the Crawford though.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Oh, and Sean, your boy Max Papis is involved as well. ;)

Well, a DP is the only closed cockpit car I can imagine Papis fitting his inflated ego into...

[Sean O'Gorman]

They need a 3rd driver for the 24. Any word on who?

Jan Magnussen and Bryan Herta.