35/8 Rule?

[JoeBob]

From Jayski:

More on the possible 'new' provisional system: NASCAR's controversial provisional system could be getting a major overhaul. Spokesman Mike Zizzo said NASCAR officials are finalizing a plan in which the top 35 drivers in the points standings would be guaranteed starting spots in races. The remaining eight starting spots would go to the fastest qualifiers not in the top 35 in points.(Atlanta Journal-Constitution (http://www.ajc.com/sports/content/sports/0105/06hall.html))

[DaveL]

I don't like it.

[devilmaster]

I don't see why they'd bother.....

Its gotten to the point these past couple years that they have only had 43 cars show up anyways.... And if there are only 43, nobody loses provisional points.

If there are more, its usually a one-off car that doesn't have provisional points to give.

So someone please explain to me why are they even thinking about changing it?

Steve

[racer2c]

I don't see why they'd bother.....

Its gotten to the point these past couple years that they have only had 43 cars show up anyways.... And if there are only 43, nobody loses provisional points.

If there are more, its usually a one-off car that doesn't have provisional points to give.

So someone please explain to me why are they even thinking about changing it?

Steve

Setting the course for taking over the Indy 500. :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

I don't see why they'd bother.....

Its gotten to the point these past couple years that they have only had 43 cars show up anyways.... And if there are only 43, nobody loses provisional points.

If there are more, its usually a one-off car that doesn't have provisional points to give.

So someone please explain to me why are they even thinking about changing it?

Steve

Anyone who shows up gets in? Think again. Number of drivers who attempted runs for all second half '04 races:

New Hampshire: 46
Pocono: 46
Indianapolis: 50
Watkins Glen: 47
Michigan: 51
Bristol: 48
California: 48
Richmond: 52
New Hampshire: 51
Dover: 50
Talladega: 46
Kansas: 47
Lowe's: 52
Martinsville: 50
Atlanta: 58
Phoenix: 50
Darlington: 48
Homestead: 56

[Railbird]

would this be a simplification of the "provisional" system or an add-on to it?

Maybe Nascar will come up with something as wacky as the NFL's quarterback rating system

[JLMannin]

I don't see why they'd bother.....

Its gotten to the point these past couple years that they have only had 43 cars show up anyways.... And if there are only 43, nobody loses provisional points.

If there are more, its usually a one-off car that doesn't have provisional points to give.

So someone please explain to me why are they even thinking about changing it?

Steve
IIRC, there are different types of provisional starts - former champion and team owner points. I think that there are a maximun of seven provisional starts per team based on owners points, and I think the former champion provisional starts are unlimited. Presumably, the proposed system would impose no limit on the "provisionals".

That would mean that the top 35 in points from the last season are guaranteed starting spots in the Daytona 500, regardless of how pathetically slow they are or what happens in the twin 125's? That is just plain stupid.

[Winston Wolfe]

Anyone who shows up gets in? Think again. Number of drivers who attempted runs for all second half '04 races:

New Hampshire: 46
Pocono: 46
Indianapolis: 50
Watkins Glen: 47
Michigan: 51
Bristol: 48
California: 48
Richmond: 52
New Hampshire: 51
Dover: 50
Talladega: 46
Kansas: 47
Lowe's: 52
Martinsville: 50
Atlanta: 58
Phoenix: 50
Darlington: 48
Homestead: 56

Hey Sean o, why dont you go back and re-sharpen that pencil....
Take a look at some of the "talent :rolleyes: that was trying to get in the field for some of these races....
The ones at California Speedway barely had any decals \ sponsors on their CAB, and a skeleton crew team, as well as barely enough tires to make a few practice sessions. My take is that these guys are pulling a "Shelmerdine", or doing the very least to make the field and get the appearance money.
Good Ol Kirk is doing NAPCAB a great service by preserving that field of 43, but he typically makes it around a few laps, then retires due to "handling", or "electrical".... one of the malady that typically effects back-markets. He still makes some nice $CHING$, and can watch the rest of the race from his motorhome.

From Yahoo NASCAR standings...

Kirk Shelmerdine 18 starts and earned $1,095,041

As Adam Sandler would say in his Happy Haunukah song "not too shabby"...

[devilmaster]

Good Ol Kirk is doing NAPCAB a great service by preserving that field of 43, but he typically makes it around a few laps, then retires due to "handling", or "electrical".... one of the malady that typically effects back-markets. He still makes some nice $CHING$, and can watch the rest of the race from his motorhome.

Don't forget Ruttman! The guy who, according to the announcers, didn't have a pit crew at all... :laugh:

(according to Nascar.com)

Feb 22 - 43rd, 1 Lap, Parked. $54,196
Mar 14 - 43rd, 6 laps, Vibration. $54,071
Mar 21 - 43rd, 22 laps, Vibration. $50,214
Mar 28 - 42nd, 4 laps, Rear End. $66,335 * Hillenburg retired on the same lap in 43rd. Guess Ruttman pitted further up.
Apr 18 - 43rd, 2 laps, Brakes. $53,566 *If he waits 2 laps, Hillenberg crashes on lap 4.
May 2 - 43rd, 2 laps, Vibration. $64,161
Sep 26 - 41st(!), 27 laps, Rear End. $56,550.

Final Total: 7 starts, 42.5 Average Finish, $399,093 total money.

[devilmaster]

Anyone who shows up gets in?

Where did I say that? The comment about not losing provisionals if 43 show up is true. They changed that rule a while back.


Think again. Number of drivers who attempted runs for all second half '04 races:

blah
blah
blah
blah.

Let's do the first half, shall we?

North Carolina :45
Las Vegas :44
Atlanta :44
Darlington :44
Bristol :44
Texas :47
Martinsville :44
Talladega :46
California :43
Richmond :45
Charlotte :52
Dover :46
Pocono :45
Michigan :45
Sears Point :44
Daytona :49
Chicagoland :46

Why didn't you post 1st half races, Sean?

p.s. should I include all of 2003? My original post said 'past couple years'. Might be some interesting stats there too.

[Sean O'Gorman]

p.s. should I include all of 2003? My original post said 'past couple years'. Might be some interesting stats there too.

Clearly something happened (my guess is the buildup to the chase) that started a trend of more smaller teams showing up.

I'm not saying that the teams that are popping up are high quality or anything, or that NASCAR should implement the 35/8 rule (I don't like it), just pointing out that it isn't a case of whoever shows up gets in.

[Racewriter]

Huge mistake if they do it.

[devilmaster]

I suppose they're trying to fix problems like this:


39 #49 Ken Schrader Dodge Schwan's Home Service 188.871 28.591 -0.742
40 #32 Ricky Craven Chevrolet Tide 185.160 29.164 -1.315
41 #15 Michael Waltrip Chevrolet NAPA Auto Parts 187.195 28.847 -0.998
42 #4 Jimmy Spencer Chevrolet Featherlite Luxury Coaches 187.422 28.812 -0.963
43 #172 Kirk Shelmerdine Ford Freddie B's 179.898 30.017 -2.168

Did not Qualify
44 #84 Kyle Busch Chevrolet CARQUEST 188.186 28.695 -0.846
45 #89 Morgan Shepherd Dodge Voyles/Carter's Royal Dispos-all 186.961 28.883 -1.034
46 #280 Andy Hillenburg Ford Commercial Truck & Trailer 182.983 29.511 -1.662

Kyle Busch beat Shelmerdine by 9 mph, yet had no provisionals to give. That was from 2004 Texas.

[Sean O'Gorman]

There was a race where Wimmer and Riggs didn't make the show, I'm sure it looks bad for Caterpillar and Valvoline to be left out when Racing For Jesus or whatever is in the show.

[Racing Truth]

I suppose they're trying to fix problems like this:



Kyle Busch beat Shelmerdine by 9 mph, yet had no provisionals to give. That was from 2004 Texas.

Yes, but if you're going to fix that, then you'd have to eliminate provisionals altogether. Not that I would be against such a notion.

[devilmaster]

Yes, but if you're going to fix that, then you'd have to eliminate provisionals altogether. Not that I would be against such a notion.

If I read the first post in this thread right, the change NASCAR is rumoured to do would have ensured Kyle got in to Texas.

Shermerdine, at almost every race that year up to that point, probably wouldn't have had enough points for 35th place minimum in the standings. (haven't checked the stats) So he would have had to get in on time, which he wouldn't have done, since he was waaaaay off the pace.

In a sense they have eliminated provisionals for the weakest competitors. The whole point of the original provisional system was to ensure that the regular competitors are able to make the race if they fail to qualify in a certain week - Not for a pitcrew-less driver with one car showing up to collect a paycheck.

Steve

[edit] Started this post 5 hours ago, had to leave, came back and found it ready to go..... and no-one posted in the thread during that time.... thanks for keeping my posts relevant, guys :laugh:

[Don Quixote]

would this keep the ringers off the road courses? :thumdown:

[devilmaster]

would this keep the ringers off the road courses? :thumdown:

No, because we'd assume the ringers should do better than the cars that aren't in the top 35.

Here's the drivers from 36 down, until the final driver with more than 10 races last year:

36 -- Johnny Sauter* 1430 -5076 16 0 0 0 0 $1,333,520
37 +1 Carl Edwards 1424 -5082 13 0 0 1 5 $1,410,570
38 -1 Dave Blaney 1347 -5159 16 0 0 0 0 $1,461,640
39 -- Bobby Hamilton Jr. 1271 -5235 17 0 0 0 0 $1,259,210
40 -- Derrike Cope 1058 -5448 18 0 0 0 0 $1,349,620
41 -- Todd Bodine 986 -5520 21 0 0 0 0 $1,275,530
42 -- Morgan Shepherd 925 -5581 19 0 0 0 0 $1,133,620
43 -- Kevin Lepage 915 -5591 17 0 0 0 0 $1,217,520
44 -- Hermie Sadler 852 -5654 16 0 0 0 0 $945,549
45 +1 John Andretti 818 -5688 9 0 0 0 0 $752,386
46 +1 Mike Wallace 764 -5742 10 0 0 0 1 $624,850
47 -2 Kirk Shelmerdine 723 -5783 18 0 0 0 0 $1,095,040

So basically, on any given weekend, these guys above don't have a provisional, and so the top 8 cars by speed make the show. That's how I read the quote in the first post.

[Rogue Leader]

Raise your hand if youre a Carl Long Fan!! :thumbup:


PS I laughed my balls off when Wimmer and Riggs didnt make the race that time....

[extramundane]

Yes, but if you're going to fix that, then you'd have to eliminate provisionals altogether. Not that I would be against such a notion.

Imagine that...the fastest X number of qualifiers make the show.

Nah, makes too much sense.

[JoeBob]

Its official: http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?id=1966194

http://www.nascar.com/2005/news/headlines/cup/01/13/bc.car.nascar.qualifying/index.html