Grand Am isn't so bad after all

[pinniped]

And no, this thread isn't mischievous...not yet at least...

I was watching the year in review on Speed tonight, they actually have some big names, a lot of former cart and other road racing series names, and some good racing...I liked it... :thumbup:

My favorite part, chip ganassi looking like he is straining to understand what Max Papis is saying to the cameraman...why does chippie always look like he is constipated? :confused:


My only prior exposure to this was a race at fontana years ago, before the dp cars even, and that had a real thin field...

[Dave99]

I find the grand am cars to be somewhat under-powered, yet excruciatingly loud. And with just a touch of ugly. Like the irl. :)

The best thing grand am has going for it is the autograph session.

[pinniped]

I find the grand am cars to be somewhat under-powered, yet excruciatingly loud. And with just a touch of ugly. Like the irl. :)

The best thing grand am has going for it is the autograph session.

I haven't heard them in person, not recently at least...that's what earplugs are for...they aren't the best looking cars, but then again, not the worst...perhaps I'm starved for close racing on a road course...I know, I'm a heretic, hey, it could be worse... >>>:gomer:

[Methanolandbrats]

Sex with a fat girl...........it's better than nothing.

[pinniped]

Sex with a fat girl...........it's better than nothing.

If you say so...

[Racewriter]

The Rolex will have the best, most diverse driver lineup of any race in the US this year. Maybe the world. I'm looking forward to it.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Me, 6/28/03:


Damn, I'm stuck with this on Saturday night:

http://www.grandamerican.com/news/54doran.jpg

Actually, I guess stuck is the wrong word since I'm going voluntarily (I have season passes to Mid-Ohio), but I'd rather be seeing ALMS.


:laugh:

Fortunately there are only 4 of these things in the race. The 5th one apparently crashed in practice and they couldn't repair it for the race. Must've run out of bondo, I guess.

This was days before I saw the DPs race for the first time. Obviously my opinion has changed since then. ;)

Even with only four cars entered, three of them were contending for the win the entire race, as was one of the GTS cars. It was a very good race.

I brought a friend with me that night, he was a casual CART fan back in the 90s, but lost interest after high school. He enjoyed it alot. He was one of ten people who came with me to the Cleveland GP the next weekend, and like the other 9, wasn't that thrilled about that race.

Every single person I know who watches a Grand-Am race with an open mind (whether in person or on TV), ends up coming around. My dad did not go to that race in 2003 because he thought the cars were stupid, he only went the next day to see the Grand-Am Cup cars. He got into racing in the mid-80s, and loved the GTP cars. After all the poor management and politics pretty much destroyed road racing, his interests were limited to NASCAR, ALMS (only in person, not on TV), and the Runoffs. Then he watched Daytona '04 and became real interested. He said to me after going this past year that it was much more exciting than ALMS ever was. My uncle (who has been going to races as long as my dad), and several of my friends who have been resisting my efforts for years to make them into Champ Car fans agreed as well.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I haven't heard them in person, not recently at least...that's what earplugs are for...they aren't the best looking cars, but then again, not the worst...perhaps I'm starved for close racing on a road course...I know, I'm a heretic, hey, it could be worse... >>>:gomer:

They don't sound bad at all, its just there isn't nearly as much diversity in engine noises as "traditional" sports car racing. All but the Brumos cars are V-8s, so they all pretty much sound the same. At least there is still some engine diversity in the GT ranks, with the Ferrari 360s and the RX-8s thrown in.

To be honest, the only bad sounding race cars I've ever heard were the early crapwagons, and certain Wankel rotaries. Ironic too, since the rotaries that don't sound annoying are what I consider my favorite sounding cars.

I still maintain that the first time I went to Petit Le Mans in 1999 was the pinnacle of cool sounding cars. 4 Ferrari V-12s, big V-8s, tons o' Porsches (turbo and N/A), Judd V-10s, 3 and 4 rotor Mazdas, shrieking inline-6 BMWs, etc.

[DaveL]

The Rolex will have the best, most diverse driver lineup of any race in the US this year. Maybe the world. I'm looking forward to it.

Same here.

I judge on results. Grand-Am, whatever you think of how the cars look or sound, has DP entries coming out of the woodwork. They are doing something right. I credit them for their success.

[Racing Truth]

As I've, uh, "pointed out ever so subtly" in the past ;) , Sean's experience isn't at all rare. I don't think there is anyone here (with the possible exception of RW) who didn't just cringe when the DP's started and go on to laugh in '03. I mean, a GT car winning overall at the Rolex? Come on.

Well, 2 years later, and almost everytime I watch GA, I enjoy it. Solid fields, compettitive, very compettive races, and a pretty stout driver lineup.

As for the Rolex, look at the Entry List folks. It's a freaking who's-who of US Motorsports. 30+ DP's. Yeah, I'm looking forward to it.

SPEED's coverage this year compared to previous ones strikes me as lacking, unfortunately.

[nrc]

This thread reads exactly like milions of threads of threads over at Track Forum. Some folks can justify anything for what they consider "good racing". If people want to follow Grand Am for the big fields and wheel to wheel eggcitement that's their perogative. Renault Cup racing used to provide all those same elements with 50 or 60 LeCars piling into turn one at the same time. The difference was that nobody touted it as a premiere series worthy of a classic race like the Daytona 24 hours.

[Racing Truth]

This thread reads exactly like milions of threads of threads over at Track Forum. Some folks can justify anything for what they consider "good racing". If people want to follow Grand Am for the big fields and wheel to wheel eggcitement that's their perogative. Renault Cup racing used to provide all those same elements with 50 or 60 LeCars piling into turn one at the same time. The difference was that nobody touted it as a premiere series worthy of a classic race like the Daytona 24 hours.

Aye, but we're talking about road racing, which is ENTIRELY different than the "still there, still there" nature of most IRL races. In terms of being worthy of the Daytona 24, well, by such standards, no series can do that now.

[Sean O'Gorman]

This thread reads exactly like milions of threads of threads over at Track Forum. Some folks can justify anything for what they consider "good racing". If people want to follow Grand Am for the big fields and wheel to wheel eggcitement that's their perogative. Renault Cup racing used to provide all those same elements with 50 or 60 LeCars piling into turn one at the same time. The difference was that nobody touted it as a premiere series worthy of a classic race like the Daytona 24 hours.

Le Cars were also not 500 hp, 2000 lb prototypes being piloted by some of the top drivers in the world.

Grand-Am is nothing like IRL. Let me know when you can drive a Daytona Prototype flat out around a road course. If anything, I bet the DPs are harder to drive than an LMP1.

Of course, I forgot, in order for a racing series to be truly world class, the racing has to be parade-like, because passing is only amusing to the mouth breathing NASCAR fans. :rolleyes:

[theunions]

The Rolex will have the best, most diverse driver lineup of any race in the US this year. Maybe the world. I'm looking forward to it.

Precisely. As I just told someone on the phone half an hour ago, the quantity and quality of drivers entered thus far is what the 500's SUPPOSED to be like. (sigh)

Now all it needs are a couple of current or very recent vintage F1 names.

[pinniped]

This thread reads exactly like milions of threads of threads over at Track Forum. Some folks can justify anything for what they consider "good racing". If people want to follow Grand Am for the big fields and wheel to wheel eggcitement that's their perogative. Renault Cup racing used to provide all those same elements with 50 or 60 LeCars piling into turn one at the same time. The difference was that nobody touted it as a premiere series worthy of a classic race like the Daytona 24 hours.

I'm sorry to be so blunt but I find this just inane. This thread isn't about the IRL. Yes, we all hate the IRL, I know I do. And I will say that it is more for what it represents than what it is. I just don't want to support Tony.

That being said, we are talking about road racing, endurance racing in some cases. I don't see the comparison. Yes, the cars are built to a spec which isn't the highest tech in the world, but the same could be said for the DTM, for Australian touring cars, for SCCA racing and for Champ Car for that matter.

Now I love champ cars, but how recentlyh have they "evolved"?

If your test for what is a true racing series that you believe is cool enough is whether it has the latest in high tech and expensive machinery, fine, but realize that you will likely be watching a series that dies every few years, and occasionally has one team dominating it. Has anyone come up with any realistic opposition to those Audis? How old are they?

Admit it, we liked the days of a big field of qualified drivers engaged in road course racing.

By your standard, you should really only be watching formula one. Formula one is great but sometimes it is good to see racing where the driver has some impact on the result

[nrc]

Le Cars were also not 500 hp, 2000 lb prototypes being piloted by some of the top drivers in the world.
Wow. FIVE HUNDRED HORSEPOWER? Golly I'm all aquiver. If only someone had alerted me that these thoroughbred racing machines had nearly as much power as some of the cars you can buy off the showroom floor these days I'd have been sooo much more excited about it.

Top racers in the world? Out of what, the top 10, 20, 50, 100, 5000? I was a Scott Pruett fan for years and there's no question that he's well past his prime. Still good enough to win a DP championship, though.


Grand-Am is nothing like IRL. Let me know when you can drive a Daytona Prototype flat out around a road course. If anything, I bet the DPs are harder to drive than an LMP1.
It's the original IRL "vision" on road courses.


Of course, I forgot, in order for a racing series to be truly world class, the racing has to be parade-like, because passing is only amusing to the mouth breathing NASCAR fans. :rolleyes:
I don't know who you're arguing with, but I said nothing of the sort.

[pinniped]

It's the original IRL "vision" on road courses. REALLY? So the IRL VERSION ONE involved Porsche engines, road racing, endurance racing, Max Papis, Andy Wallace, Wayne Taylor and the like?

[RusH]

While I don`t "admire" the cars like ALMS, some of these guys are respected enough that this year will be a who`s who of racing. They certainly have the knowledge to put on a good show full of good road racers. I`m looking forward to see the likes of Paul Newman :) in a car again. The Rolex is the Sebring of GA, lets judge it that way. The rest of the season can be disected properly if you like.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Wow. FIVE HUNDRED HORSEPOWER? Golly I'm all aquiver. If only someone had alerted me that these thoroughbred racing machines had nearly as much power as some of the cars you can buy off the showroom floor these days I'd have been sooo much more excited about it.

Sorry, I forgot, you raced 950 hp prototypes for years, and these cars could be easily handled by you. :rolleyes:


Top racers in the world? Out of what, the top 10, 20, 50, 100, 5000? I was a Scott Pruett fan for years and there's no question that he's well past his prime. Still good enough to win a DP championship, though.

Yeah, that Max Papis he drove with is a real wanker too. So are Andy Wallace, Butch Leitzinger, Luis Diaz, Max Angelelli, Hurley Haywood, etc. I guess. The wankerdom only gets worse in '05 with Gidley, McDowell, Johannson, etc. joining the series.

Half the drivers that Lehto/Werner beat for the LMP1 title were Grand-Am regulars, the only others they faced were Weaver and Chris Dyson (wanker), so that title clearly means much more.

And that isn't even counting the one-offs, unless you consider guys like Tracy, da Matta, and Stewart to be scrubs.


It's the original IRL "vision" on road courses.

Somewhat true, except 1) unlike the IRL, there is actual demand for the Grand-Am vision, and 2) there is management capable of staying the course as the DP class grows.


I don't know who you're arguing with, but I said nothing of the sort.

:confused:

You've clearly been suggesting this whole time that the Daytona Prototypes are easy to drive and that the racing has been dumbed down for the fans.

[Ankf00]

for the record, i'm more of the DaveL school of thought, thought this stuff was a horrid joke at first, but they have come around since then and are actually ANSWERING A QUESTION THAT THE TEAMS/DRIVERS ASKED... as everyone is so fond of criticizing the league for

[nrc]

I'm sorry to be so blunt but I find this just inane. This thread isn't about the IRL. Yes, we all hate the IRL, I know I do. And I will say that it is more for what it represents than what it is. I just don't want to support Tony.

But you're happy to support ISC, who are doing basically the same thing to American Road racing that Tony has done to open wheel racing. Divide, conquer, and control. Their interest is to maintain it purely as a diversion for those who can't be won over to the NASCAR franchise.


That being said, we are talking about road racing, endurance racing in some cases. I don't see the comparison. Yes, the cars are built to a spec which isn't the highest tech in the world, but the same could be said for the DTM, for Australian touring cars, for SCCA racing and for Champ Car for that matter.
Nobody touts DTM as a premiere road racing series worthy of a legacy like that of the 24 hours.


Now I love champ cars, but how recentlyh have they "evolved"?
These days I don't follow Champ car for what it is, I follow it for what it has been and what I hope it will be again.


By your standard, you should really only be watching formula one. Formula one is great but sometimes it is good to see racing where the driver has some impact on the result

Rubbish. I follow lots of lower series. The difference is that they don't tout themselves as anything but that.

[pinniped]

Well said Ank...I was kind of the same way before though I never really checked it out...You know I think one of the things I like the best about it is that the series seems to be succeeding at least in car count and field quality terms...gives one reason to be optimistic about racing in general...

I don't mind that some of the drivers are older. Mario drove when he was no longer youthful. So did Jacques Laffitte and Paul Newman for that matter. One of the things I like the least about open wheel racing is the whole boy band under 160 pound, under 5'8" under 35 year old set of requirements...

[pinniped]

But you're happy to support ISC, who are doing basically the same thing to American Road racing that Tony has done to open wheel racing. Divide, conquer, and control. Their interest is to maintain it purely as a diversion for those who can't be won over to the NASCAR franchise.

I guess I'm just some kind of sell out... :rolleyes: seriously, yes, they do want to conquer and control...that's their job, they are running a series and a racing business. I guess I am not a socialist so I don't read a lot of "dark overlord" nonsense into their motives.

It is a bad analogy. One cannot say that sports car racing was anywhere near as strong as CART was when Tony spawned the HIRL. And as ANK pointed out, the series is strong because it addresses one of the weaknesses of the other series.

Instead of evil corporatey puppeteers controlling the racing business and offering grand am as a "diversion for those who can't be won over to NASCAR" did it occur to you that they recognized a market exists, realized that a full field would attract that market, and are giving some portion of some group of people what they want?

[nrc]

Sorry, I forgot, you raced 950 hp prototypes for years, and these cars could be easily handled by you. :rolleyes:
I can't hit a 95 mph fast ball or slam dunk a basketball either, but I have no interest in watching someone else do it. If we, as fans, can't have an opinion on anything that we can't do ourselves then we may as well shut this forum down now because that's what it's all about.

By your logic, the fact that you haven't driven a champ car invalidates everything you've ever posted here about champ cars. So why do you bother?

It's simple. We post here as fans, talking about what we think as fans. If you don't like what I have to say then feel free to disagree. But don't tell me that I have no basis for my opinion because, in that respect, you don't either.



Yeah, that Max Papis he drove with is a real wanker too. So are Andy Wallace, Butch Leitzinger, Luis Diaz, Max Angelelli, Hurley Haywood, etc. I guess. The wankerdom only gets worse in '05 with Gidley, McDowell, Johannson, etc. joining the series.
I never said anything about wankers.



Somewhat true, except 1) unlike the IRL, there is actual demand for the Grand-Am vision, and 2) there is management capable of staying the course as the DP class grows.
I think it could be argued whether the demand for DP-style racing is any greater than the demand for IRL racing. From a club racer, or gentleman racer's perspective - sure. From a fan perspective?



You've clearly been suggesting this whole time that the Daytona Prototypes are easy to drive and that the racing has been dumbed down for the fans.
What has that got to do with what I was actually responding to which was this:
Of course, I forgot, in order for a racing series to be truly world class, the racing has to be parade-like, because passing is only amusing to the mouth breathing NASCAR fans. I never said anything of the sort.

DP fans need to stop assuming that because I deplore ISC's vision of road racing that I'm touting ALMS as the right answer. I've never had much interest in ALMS. It's mostly a show car parade. The cars are wonderful but the racing in the top class isn't particularly interesting.

[FTG]

If the NASCAR/ISC cartel develops a strong road racing series, with strong fan and sponsor support, then you may as well turn out the lights at champ car headquarters.

[Sean O'Gorman]

But I thought that Champ Car doesn't need American drivers or road courses; therefore Grand-Am is serving an entirely different market, right? :saywhat:

If Grand-Am succeeds at the expense of Champ Car, then maybe it is a sign that they have been doing things wrong? Maybe ISC can fix open wheel racing too, they seem to be the only ones with a track record of success in North American motorsport these days.

[racer2c]

I guess I'm just some kind of sell out... :rolleyes: seriously, yes, they do want to conquer and control...that's their job, they are running a series and a racing business. I guess I am not a socialist so I don't read a lot of "dark overlord" nonsense into their motives.

It is a bad analogy. One cannot say that sports car racing was anywhere near as strong as CART was when Tony spawned the HIRL. And as ANK pointed out, the series is strong because it addresses one of the weaknesses of the other series.

Instead of evil corporatey puppeteers controlling the racing business and offering grand am as a "diversion for those who can't be won over to NASCAR" did it occur to you that they recognized a market exists, realized that a full field would attract that market, and are giving some portion of some group of people what they want?

I have to chime in on this because the Evil Emperor has gone on record saying that his stated goal for NASCAR was total domination of global racing. Specifically, France Jr. made these comments in an interview in '99 that I read in a satellite TV magazine. When it comes from the horse’s mouth, it's not hard to believe.

Question, are Grand Am rules keeping ALMS cars from running at Daytona?

[racer2c]

If the NASCAR/ISC cartel develops a strong road racing series, with strong fan and sponsor support, then you may as well turn out the lights at champ car headquarters.

Well, according to all the Grand Am experts here at OC, it's already done.

[pinniped]

Well, according to all the Grand Am experts here at OC, it's already done.

I tend to think they are different market segments that can co-exist. They did for a long time. I'm just happy to see SOME road racing series with sports cars appear to be succeeding...

The US racing series have been pretty depressing for a long time, perhaps this is a good sign. Some of the cars even have sponsors...

[Sean O'Gorman]

Question, are Grand Am rules keeping ALMS cars from running at Daytona?

Yes. You could modify a 911 GT3-R/RS to fit into the GT class, but it'd basically be a 911 GT3 shell with a GT3 Cup suspension, engine, etc.

But you can't run an IRL car in Champ Car, can you? What about an ALMS car? A stock car? What's your point?

[Racewriter]

Question, are Grand Am rules keeping ALMS cars from running at Daytona?

Dunno. Are ALMS rules keeping Daytona Prototypes from running at Sebring?

In fact, if Panoz' people were smart, he'd open up a class for the DP's at his races - just to put some rolling stock on the track.

'Nother fact: The fastest laps turned at the Sebring weekend last year were by 15 year old GTP/Group C cars, piloted by gentleman drivers...

If you're still stuck on a lemming hatred of the France family, I don't know who can help you. They do it right.

I think it's time for a new forum term: FODS. Stands for Fans Of Dying Series.

[Racewriter]

If the NASCAR/ISC cartel develops a strong road racing series, with strong fan and sponsor support, then you may as well turn out the lights at champ car headquarters.

I honestly don't think so. The series most in jeopardy - believe it or not - is the IRL. If the GrandAm turns into a strong spectator series, you'll see it replace the (expensive sanction fee) IRL events before they go after ChampCar's street events. JMO.

[DaveL]

In fact, if Panoz' people were smart, he'd open up a class for the DP's at his races - just to put some rolling stock on the track.


I was thinking the same thing.

I'll say it again, you can't look at a series that is bursting at the seams with entries for their highest class and say they are doing something wrong by their competitors. If Grand-Am was still fielding a half dozen DPs neither I nor anyone else here would saying a single good thing about it. Was it a joke a couple of years worthy of derision? You bet. I'm not laughing at the entry list I see now. Not when I see that many cars and that many top notch drivers from so many different walks of racing. My hat is off to them.

[DaveL]

The series most in jeopardy - believe it or not - is the IRL. If the GrandAm turns into a strong spectator series, you'll see it replace the (expensive sanction fee) IRL events before they go after ChampCar's street events. JMO.

To concur, the engine mfgs will also look at the ROI math and, well, do the math. The engine situation in the .1RL is tenuous enough as it is.

[Jag_Warrior]

Sex with a fat girl...........it's better than nothing.

We're in the middle of New Year "resignations" (jump or be pushed), so I know Daytona is out of the question this year. But I'm actually looking forward to VIR's Grand Am date. I've cheered for Dr. Don and the ALMS, making fun of these oogly-@ss DP cars as much as the next guy. But, they are what they are. I wouldn't jump through hoops or fly across country to see them, but to see them at Daytona or a near by road course... I'll strap on some beer goggles and swear I thought she was just big boned.

In GT, it seems like Grand Am is actually doing it right. The variety of cars is more interesting to me than ALMS's GT/Porsche Cup.

I'm sorry, but I just don't have the energy to argue about purity in racing, or what used to be supreme, any longer. I'll never attend an IRL race. I doubt I'll ever be a major fan of Grand Am. But CCWS and ALMS need to start taking care of my needs... or I have to start looking for easier dates. ;)

[Jag_Warrior]

I think it's time for a new forum term: FODS. Stands for Fans Of Dying Series.

Maybe monthly get togethers? A place for Trans Am, CART, IRL and IMSA/ALMS fans to share some space. :(

[nrc]

If you're still stuck on a lemming hatred of the France family, I don't know who can help you. They do it right.

If DP is your idea of "doing it right" then I'll proudly wear the mantle of "lemming France family hater."


I think it's time for a new forum term: FODS. Stands for Fans Of Dying Series.

What dying series am I a fan of?

There seems to be some confusion here. There seems to be a notion among some folks that we have to take what's being offered because there isn't any other option.

Bull. I've got a thousand other things vying for my attention and if they don't serve up something that is compelling and exciting for me then I'll go do something else. Some will say that means I'm not a "real race fan". Whatever.

[Railbird]

f the GrandAm turns into a strong spectator series, you'll see it replace the (expensive sanction fee) IRL events

Yep

[Methanolandbrats]

Hmmmmmmmm, there does'nt seem to be much room for the purist point of view around here. Try this analogy to basketball. As a lifelong fan of basketball, I still follow youth, high school and college ball. However I abandoned the NBA years ago because it sucks, they don't play basketball despite the fact they call it basketball. They are popular, they do it "right" from an economic point of view, but it's not basketball, it's streetball bull****. Perhaps ISC is leading American Motorsports on a similar path into the toilet. NASCAR is called "racing", but it's really carefully scripted entertainment with much more in common to the WWF than motorsports. Should roadracing follow the same model? Will we ever climb out of this horrible dark time...I sure hope so.

[nrc]

Hmmmmmmmm, there does'nt seem to be much room for the purist point of view around here.

There is plenty of room for all champ car enthusiast's points of view here.

[DaveL]

Politics is the art of what is possible.

The critics want to cry and pound their fists because the cars aren't expensive, pretty, and exotic enough for them. Fine. But here's the catch-there is no support amoung those who spend money to put cars on the track for expensive, pretty, and exotic prototypes. If DPs aren't for you, well y'know what, that's where sportscar racing in this country is right now. That's where the support among those who spend the money to put cars on the track is. You don't like it, don't watch. Don't get mad at Grand-Am for giving the competitors what they wanted. Get mad the racing world for not giving you what you wanted.

Those who are crying over DPs want something else, as if there was any kind of support in the racing world for it. It's a pipe dream, like the return of front engine cars for Indy. There is no something else out there in sportscar racing. The DPs are not there at the expense of some mythical full field of alternative cars that would somehow make the 24 hours a better race if they were allowed to compete. The DPs are there because the body economic that supports sportscar racing wants them there.

[FTG]

I honestly don't think so. The series most in jeopardy - believe it or not - is the IRL.

IMO, it is almost inevitable that ISC will buy the Brickyard. The .1RL will come with it. The Frances won't kill it. They'll make it profitable.

[Sean O'Gorman]

To concur, the engine mfgs will also look at the ROI math and, well, do the math. The engine situation in the .1RL is tenuous enough as it is.

Yep. I'd love to see how much less Toyota spends funding the Ganassi Grand-Am cars, and then compare the ROI between Grand-Am and IRL a year or so from now.

[Sean O'Gorman]

If DP is your idea of "doing it right" then I'll proudly wear the mantle of "lemming France family hater.

What is your idea of "doing it right" then? And I mean in the realistic sense, it can't be something that the hardcore fans would love but competitors would stay away from in droves.

[FTG]

If you're still stuck on a lemming hatred of the France family, I don't know who can help you. They do it right.

So does Microsoft. So did "The Swift Boat Veterans for Truth." So does Brittany Spears and Jessica Simpson. The people planting improvised explosive devices seem to be achieving most of their goals too. They're still all bad for America.

[DaveL]

What is your idea of "doing it right" then? And I mean in the realistic sense, it can't be something that the hardcore fans would love but competitors would stay away from in droves.

It's a question the critics refuse the answer. If there was support among the competitors for cars that cost twice as much with twice the horsepower and every technical doodad money could buy then that's what the entry list for the 24 hours would have. Even in the best of times, racing series have a gulf between what the fans really and truely want and what the competitors are willing to pay for.

[racer2c]

Dunno. Are ALMS rules keeping Daytona Prototypes from running at Sebring?

In fact, if Panoz' people were smart, he'd open up a class for the DP's at his races - just to put some rolling stock on the track.

'Nother fact: The fastest laps turned at the Sebring weekend last year were by 15 year old GTP/Group C cars, piloted by gentleman drivers...

If you're still stuck on a lemming hatred of the France family, I don't know who can help you. They do it right.

I think it's time for a new forum term: FODS. Stands for Fans Of Dying Series.

Sorry bub, the real lemmings are fans of any mediocrity that's put in front of their face. Like I said last week, similar to pinnieped' s comments today, racing today sucks, unless that is, you're fat, drunk and have a # 8 painted on your gut. Is that lemming hatred? I have trouble with differentiating my hatred of things.

[Railbird]

The people planting improvised explosive devices seem to be achieving most of their goals too.

oh please

don't go there

this racing deal is all bucks and bull****

[Sean O'Gorman]

Sorry bub, the real lemmings are fans of any mediocrity that's put in front of their face. Like I said last week, similar to pinnieped' s comments today, racing today sucks, unless that is, you're fat, drunk and have a # 8 painted on your gut. Is that lemming hatred? I have trouble with differentiating my hatred of things.

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

So with most professional road racing series (ALMS, Champ Car, Trans-Am, IRL :saywhat: ) struggling to hit 20 cars, Grand-Am is the mediocre one?

Enjoy your http://www.the44.net/portpics/apparel/haterade2.jpg, I've got some good racing to watch this year. :cool:

[racer2c]

Oh, please. :rolleyes:

So with most professional road racing series (ALMS, Champ Car, Trans-Am, IRL :saywhat: ) struggling to hit 20 cars, Grand-Am is the mediocre one?

Enjoy your http://www.the44.net/portpics/apparel/haterade2.jpg, I've got some good racing to watch this year. :cool:

So do the dozens of Winst-er-Nextel Cup freinds of mine. Thank you but I'll pass.

I prefer a high performance car, I prefer my cheese extra sharp and from Vermont and I would never own a 'strat newer than a '75.
Elitist? Hell, I thought open wheel fans were the epitome of racing elitism.
I've hated NASCAR for 25 years and just because they have evolved into the nations most popular form of racing (thanks Tony), doesn't mean I have to 'accept them, or stop hating them'. I hate the IRL too, oh, but that's ok because you hate them too. I see how it works now.
:shakehead

[Sean O'Gorman]

I hate the IRL too, oh, but that's ok because you hate them too. I see how it works now.
:shakehead

Completely different. The IRL is bringing down open wheel racing, while Grand-Am is elevating sports car racing.

[pinniped]

This reminds me of some of the "bible according to paper" arguments...i.e., someone states an opinion, claims it to be the highest and most refined of all opinions and declares those who don't agree with it to be inbred pessimistic goat humpers.

I'll just enjoy the racing.

Except the IRL. They really ARE inbred goat humpers. See, there's a difference! ;)

[nrc]

It's a question the critics refuse the answer. If there was support among the competitors for cars that cost twice as much with twice the horsepower and every technical doodad money could buy then that's what the entry list for the 24 hours would have. Even in the best of times, racing series have a gulf between what the fans really and truely want and what the competitors are willing to pay for.

If the competitors want to race for their own amusement then they can bloody well go do it. Just don't bother telling me that I've got to watch because that's the best that American sports car racing can do.

What would be interesting to me? Something a heck of a lot closer to ALMS than DP, Full carbon tubs with limited ground effects but with a some rules changes to rein in the mega-buck factory efforts and make it more practical for privateers. ALMS's problem is that they're tied too closely to LeMans which leaves them at the mercy of whatever the manufacturers throw their way.

You don't need to attract entries in droves. You only need a dozen or so top class cars and another dozen "LMP2" class cars. And that's exactly where something like DP's belong, not pretending to be top-class prototypes.

Can't do it today's economy? Fine, there are plenty of other things I can do with my time and money rather than watch a super modifieds masquerading as prototypes.

[Railbird]

super modifieds masquerading

http://www.retrorockets.org/1/imagelib/LH_OS-013.jpg


Bill Hite did it better

[chop456]

while Grand-Am is elevating sports car racing.

That's like saying fat chicks would elevate the SI swimsuit issue because they want to be in it, they'll work for less money, and there are a lot more of them willing to pose.

I don't recall ever saying that anyone had wo watch ALMS, but there sure seems to be a contingent hell bent on insisting that I watch Grand Am because it's just as good. As of right now, I have no reason to watch it. If ALMS dies, I'll have one SMALL reason, but I'm pretty sure I can still rationalize not watching. ;)

The business aspects don't interest me. If there's an ALMS, I'll watch.

[racer2c]

That's like saying fat chicks would elevate the SI swimsuit issue because they want to be in it, they'll work for less money, and there are a lot more of them willing to pose.

I don't recall ever saying that anyone had wo watch ALMS, but there sure seems to be a contingent hell bent on insisting that I watch Grand Am because it's just as good. As of right now, I have no reason to watch it. If ALMS dies, I'll have one SMALL reason, but I'm pretty sure I can still rationalize not watching. ;)

The business aspects don't interest me. If there's an ALMS, I'll watch.

Well said. :thumbup:

[Railbird]

I'll watch the D24 just because I'm jonesin for a race. During the last season I tried to watch Grand Am at Barber and VIR just because I wanted to check out the venues.

Is the Grand Am show at Mid Ohio going to be run Saturday night? Throw in a campfire drinking session and an early Sunday get home and I just might attend.

Their shows alone just aren't enough to attract me without some kind of add-on.

[DaveL]

Can't do it today's economy? Fine, there are plenty of other things I can do with my time and money rather than watch a super modifieds masquerading as prototypes.

You mean like doing something other than disrupting every thread about Grand-Am so you can yell to the world about how much you hate it? You already made that point umpteen times. Let those who want to enjoy this year's 24 have their threads. It's ridiculous that everytime someone wants to have thread about the 24 or Grand-Am the critics have to cut in with their, "I think it sucks, people who like it are idiots, blah blah blah I'm a purist" posts. It's total disrespect for those who want to enjoy a form of the sport. Years ago I gave up telling other race fans how much I dislike what they like.

[racer2c]

You mean like doing something other than disrupting every thread about Grand-Am so you can yell to the world about how much you hate it? You already made that point umpteen times. Let those who want to enjoy this year's 24 have their threads. It's ridiculous that everytime someone wants to have thread about the 24 or Grand-Am the critics have to cut in with their, "I think it sucks, people who like it are idiots, blah blah blah I'm a purist" posts. It's total disrespect for those who want to enjoy a form of the sport. Years ago I gave up telling other race fans how much I dislike what they like.

Well, it is his forum. If it were mine, I'd probably be the only one in it. :)

It's not that nrc and others are coming out of the woodwork dumping on Grand Am, it's Grand Am fans coming out proclaiming that everyone else should like it now becasue they have sponsors and lot's 'o cars.

[Jag_Warrior]

That's like saying fat chicks would elevate the SI swimsuit issue because they want to be in it, they'll work for less money, and there are a lot more of them willing to pose.

I don't recall ever saying that anyone had wo watch ALMS, but there sure seems to be a contingent hell bent on insisting that I watch Grand Am because it's just as good. As of right now, I have no reason to watch it. If ALMS dies, I'll have one SMALL reason, but I'm pretty sure I can still rationalize not watching. ;)

The business aspects don't interest me. If there's an ALMS, I'll watch.

Including CCWS, the BEST race I've attended over the past couple of years was the ALMS race in DC. I took my friends and their son. I met a cute girl. I had a wonderful time. The ALMS paddock and fan experience was 1st class. The tight course had passing zones and it was one helluva race! That same year, I went to the G/A race at VIR. It was a dog. The Grand Am staff was very unprofessional, and I actually thought I was going to end up in a fight with one of them over the ALMS cap I was wearing. This isn't a series that I'm falling head-over-heels in love with. Politics aside, is the racing good? Yep, IMO, the racing is more than good.

I want to see the ALMS formula win the day. But since the DC race, the factory Audis have disappeared. Cadillac withdrew. Panoz even took his wild looking LMP's out of the game. Mr. Keske is always quick to point out that ALMS outdraws CCWS at Road America. They have a network package. They treat fans nothing but right. But the LMP formulas are expensive and they can no longer draw participants to the P classes, or even GTS. I'm growing a little tired of seeing the same Audi win and the same Lolas break half way through the race.

All they have to do is schedule another race in the Northeast and I'll gladly attend an ALMS race. Unlike CCWS vs. IRL, I don't (or no longer) see ALMS vs. Grand Am as an either/or proposition. No one is being told that they have to watch Grand Am. And as you said, no one is being told that they have to watch ALMS. They're both out there. I now feel that each has something to offer racing fans who want something other than template stock cars. But no one is being beaten into watching one or both.

[Jag_Warrior]

it's Grand Am fans coming out proclaiming that everyone else should like it now becasue they have sponsors and lot's 'o cars.

With all due respect, R2C, can you point out a post where someone said that? Everyone should like it? I may have missed a post or two, but all I've seen were individuals saying that they've had a change of heart about Grand Am. I'd say most of us are just watching both, where we excluded Grand Am before.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Mr. Keske is always quick to point out that ALMS outdraws CCWS at Road America.

The source alone should tell you how accurate that claim is. I've never been to an ALMS race at Road America, but comparing ALMS at Mid-Ohio to Champ Car, there were probably 2-3X as many people there for Champ Car.

My guess for Mid-Ohio would be:

Champ Car ('03): 25,000
ALMS ('04): 8-10,000
Grand-Am ('04): 5,000

[Jag_Warrior]

I'll watch the D24 just because I'm jonesin for a race. During the last season I tried to watch Grand Am at Barber and VIR just because I wanted to check out the venues.

Is the Grand Am show at Mid Ohio going to be run Saturday night? Throw in a campfire drinking session and an early Sunday get home and I just might attend.

Their shows alone just aren't enough to attract me without some kind of add-on.

If you've never been, VIR is worth the trip. It really is a gorgeous place. The vintage races are probably at least as interesting as the G/A.

[chop456]

As for ALMS outdrawing CCWS at RA: :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Also, for the record, I never said that anyone has to like Grand-Am. However, I think it is deserving of respect as America's premier sports car racing series, and I think that the reasons for disliking it are just plain silly. But most importantly, those who dislike the direction that Grand-Am is taking sports car racing are being completely unrealistic in their expectations of where the sport should be heading. You can say "fine, if that is the way racing is going to be, I just wont watch" all day long, but it doesn't matter, because you aren't the kind of person that sports car racing needs to survive.

[DaveL]

With all due respect, R2C, can you point out a post where someone said that? Everyone should like it? I may have missed a post or two, but all I've seen were individuals saying that they've had a change of heart about Grand Am. I'd say most of us are just watching both, where we excluded Grand Am before.

Exactly. And I'd add that no one is saying that Grand-Am should be liked, only acknowledged for the success it's achieving in attracting so many competitors and accepting that it clearly was something body economic that supports sportscar racing wanted.

[Racewriter]

If you've never been, VIR is worth the trip. It really is a gorgeous place. The vintage races are probably at least as interesting as the G/A.

Funny you should say that. I have a number of things coming together at the same time - a nephew attending a race engine building school in Charlotte who would very much like us to visit; an opening at a racing school that I'd like to attend; and VIR on the following weekend. Might make a nice vacation - I'd love to see the place.

[Jag_Warrior]

The source alone should tell you how accurate that claim is. I've never been to an ALMS race at Road America, but comparing ALMS at Mid-Ohio to Champ Car, there were probably 2-3X as many people there for Champ Car.

My guess for Mid-Ohio would be:

Champ Car ('03): 25,000
ALMS ('04): 8-10,000
Grand-Am ('04): 5,000

Well yeah, he does have a thing for beating on CCWS at every turn. So ALMS is quite as popular as some say? ;)

What conerns me about ALMS is they're soon going to be competing with SVRA for cars. The Audis are fantastic cars, but they is gettin' old. And all I hear are rumors of what's going to be produced under the new rules.

[Racing Truth]

That's like saying fat chicks would elevate the SI swimsuit issue because they want to be in it, they'll work for less money, and there are a lot more of them willing to pose.

I don't recall ever saying that anyone had wo watch ALMS, but there sure seems to be a contingent hell bent on insisting that I watch Grand Am because it's just as good. As of right now, I have no reason to watch it. If ALMS dies, I'll have one SMALL reason, but I'm pretty sure I can still rationalize not watching. ;)

The business aspects don't interest me. If there's an ALMS, I'll watch.

Bad analogy. SI has ZERO problems attracting the supposedly best models in the world (though skin-and-bones isn't that attractive to me). Sportscar racing in America has had trouble getting anyone over here, let alone the best.

[Racing Truth]

Well yeah, he does have a thing for beating on CCWS at every turn. So ALMS is quite as popular as some say? ;)

What conerns me about ALMS is they're soon going to be competing with SVRA for cars. The Audis are fantastic cars, but they is gettin' old. And all I hear are rumors of what's going to be produced under the new rules.

We keep hearing "this will be the breakout year." That's what we we're promised too.

Signed,

2002, 2003, 2004...

[Jag_Warrior]

Funny you should say that. I have a number of things coming together at the same time - a nephew attending a race engine building school in Charlotte who would very much like us to visit; an opening at a racing school that I'd like to attend; and VIR on the following weekend. Might make a nice vacation - I'd love to see the place.

It's out in the country, but that's part of the charm IMO. Most well traveled racers I've spoken to tell me it's one of the prettiest courses in North America. Get there early enough and take a track tour. If I'm there at the same time, I'll offer you a ride around and buy you a beer. They frown on holding back too far, but you can get occasional blasts of speed.

[Racing Truth]

If indeed the IRL and Grand-Am were alike, then Grand-Am couldn't possibly attract this many cars so quickly.

The IRL addressed a need (no, claimed to) that didn't exist. The results, car count in particular, truly bear this out. The results with GA suggest something else. While ALMS is having issues with costs, which lead to embarrassing car counts, GA's car counts have exploded. More owners and drivers are involved, and what few sponsors exist are significant (Kodak, CompUSA, Citgo).

I understand thinking Grand-Am's idea is bad, but I have a difficult time excepting that road racing like this is "dumbed down.:

[Sean O'Gorman]

More owners and drivers are involved, and what few sponsors exist are significant (Kodak, CompUSA, Citgo).

To be fair, Kodak is there at NASCAR's insistance, CompUSA is probably nowhere near as relevant as Toyota in the backing of the Ganassi car, and Citgo is only there because Milka is banging their CEO.

However, sponsorships like Boss Snowplows, Suntrust, etc. are probably entirely legitimate. Suntrust is a great fit for road racing since they apparently have a lending program designing specifically for racing ventures. Maybe it is time for those of you who have issue with the ALMS car counts to put your money where your mouth is and come up with a proposal. ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

That's like saying fat chicks would elevate the SI swimsuit issue because they want to be in it, they'll work for less money, and there are a lot more of them willing to pose.

I don't like your analogy. Here is how I see it.

Say you (sports car racing), had a history of having these great wives that were perfect 10s (Can-Am, GTP, Group C), but they had a tendency to make bad decisions and all ended up dying. Say of AIDS, or heroin overdose, or something that could've been avoided. Yet you still keep going after these girls, thinking and hoping the next one will be different, even though it always turns out she wont.

After awhile, the girls become less and less attractive (WSC, USRRC, ALMS), and it is harder to get them. And they still keep dying of drug overdoses.

On the other hand, there is a girl that while not nearly as physically attractive, is much less psycho, and virtually drug free. Her name is Daytona Prototypes.

Okay, that is probably the worst analogy ever, and I should have my posting privileges revoked for coming up with it, but you see what I'm saying? :laugh:

[chop456]

I don't like your analogy. Here is how I see it.

Say you (sports car racing), had a history of having these great wives that were perfect 10s (Can-Am, GTP, Group C), but they had a tendency to make bad decisions and all ended up dying. Say of AIDS, or heroin overdose, or something that could've been avoided. Yet you still keep going after these girls, thinking and hoping the next one will be different, even though it always turns out she wont.

After awhile, the girls become less and less attractive (WSC, USRRC, ALMS), and it is harder to get them. And they still keep dying of drug overdoses.

On the other hand, there is a girl that while not nearly as physically attractive, is much less psycho, and virtually drug free. Her name is Daytona Prototypes.

Okay, that is probably the worst analogy ever, and I should have my posting privileges revoked for coming up with it, but you see what I'm saying? :laugh:

Yes.

You're willing to settle and I'm not. :D

[racer2c]

With all due respect, R2C, can you point out a post where someone said that? Everyone should like it? I may have missed a post or two, but all I've seen were individuals saying that they've had a change of heart about Grand Am. I'd say most of us are just watching both, where we excluded Grand Am before.

The posting of numerous thread after thread on the subject of the 'Grandiose' Grand Am. Those very same posters with their changes in heart, in posting are explaining that because they've 'seen the light', the ALMS crowd should follow suit or they are being bad sports. That is much of what nrc was speaking of.

Let me get this straight, Grand Am is ‘in’ ALMS, CCWS, Trans Am is not. NASCAR/ISC has the best interests in mind for US road racing or for all motor racing for that matter.

I gotta go. I’m off to Wal-Mart to buy my first DE jr hat. Maybe they’ll have Grand Am stuff too!
:gomer:

[Ziggy]

RahRahRar, Grand Am has the Car's

RahRahRee, That no one wants to see

The business plan is great, ran by the imperial potentate
Twas born of a need, to fuel the sanction's greed
So without sounding to crass
Grand Am sucks ass

Im hear all week, dont forget to tip your waitress!

[devilmaster]

mmmmmmm.......

good veal. ;)

[Racing Truth]

If the NASCAR/ISC cartel develops a strong road racing series, with strong fan and sponsor support, then you may as well turn out the lights at champ car headquarters.

If OW as a whole officially dies out, even if its just ChampCar, then Grand-Am is about oh, down at 5,000, on the list of reasons why. If Grand-Am kills CC, then CC has no business existing.

I'm not overly concerned about it.

[Jag_Warrior]

I wanna play, Ask Sean a Question.

Q1: I thought Milka was married to some rich, international, biz-hombre, jet-setter dude in Venezuela?

Q2: Do you think people would have fewer objections to the DP's if they were "less ugly"? Let's say the engine formula/approach was exactly the same, but they looked more like Camel Lite from the 90's.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/racing/raceimages/93imsasebring12hrb.jpg

[Racing Truth]

Yes.

You're willing to settle and I'm not. :D

:D

But no, the bigger point is style v. substance. Now watch as I try to one-up OGorman in the horrible analogy department. ;)

Suppose you get the chance to date a beautiful supermodel (whatever your definition of physical beauty is). Of course, 95% of us will sign up for that in a second. So, you start dating her, ahem, among other things, and cannot imagine being your friend stuck with this "average-looking" woman he's known for years. After all, you've got the babe!

But as time goes on, you find that your girlfriend is a whiny, self-absorbed, primadonna bimbo. In short, there really isn't much there in terms of substance.

Your friend, meanwhile, is very happy, now married, etc. And you begin to wonder if he had it right all along.

The bimbo? Well, that could be said to be ALMS. Looks pretty, but there ain't much there. The "average looking" woman? That's GA, stabile, yet enjoyable at the same time.

There, take that Sean! :laugh:

[Jag_Warrior]

The posting of numerous thread after thread on the subject of the 'Grandiose' Grand Am. Those very same posters with their changes in heart, in posting are explaining that because they've 'seen the light', the ALMS crowd should follow suit or they are being bad sports. That is much of what nrc was speaking of.

Let me get this straight, Grand Am is ‘in’ ALMS, CCWS, Trans Am is not. NASCAR/ISC has the best interests in mind for US road racing or for all motor racing for that matter.

I gotta go. I’m off to Wal-Mart to buy my first DE jr hat. Maybe they’ll have Grand Am stuff too!
:gomer:

I can't speak for others and you know me better than that.

It's not that Trans Am, CCWS and ALMS aren't "in", or that Grand Am is. And I hardly think that ISC/NASCAR has the best interest of the fans in mind. ISC is a company. They're out to make money. That's all. No different than Microsoft. I've always been a fan of Apple. But Apple is out for the buck too. They just stuck with a bad approach when they had the best product, IMO... kinda like ALMS. If you sit still too long, someone will come along and eat your lunch. G/A is raking fries off ALMS's plate and they need to get on with it, and stop talking about what might happen after the next formula change.

ALMS needs some new, hot, sexy cars... cause in addition to their "For the Fans" slogan, they also say, "Where the Cars are the Stars". And while I still think Sophia Loren is the sexiest woman alive, she is a tad bit... well, old.

I don't want to bring Trans Am into this. It's just f'ed up right now. It's barely a shell of what it used to be... sorta like Indy.

[Sean O'Gorman]

I wanna play, Ask Sean a Question.

Q1: I thought Milka was married to some rich, international, biz-hombre, jet-setter dude in Venezuela?

Q2: Do you think people would have fewer objections to the DP's if they were "less ugly"? Let's say the engine formula/approach was exactly the same, but they looked more like Camel Lite from the 90's.

http://www.ferraris-online.com/racing/raceimages/93imsasebring12hrb.jpg

A1: Someone told me she is married to a Citgo exec. What, you thought they sponsored her for her talent and personality? :laugh:

A2: If the DPs had smaller cockpits (or the option to build an open cockpit), a few more engine selections (Judd V-8, Nissan V-6, some turbo 4 cylinders, rotaries, LMP2-type 450-500 hp engines, etc.), and a smaller rules cycle (I believe the current formula is a 5-10 year cycle), there wouldn't be a legitimate reason for ANY sports car racing fan to not like the series.

An example of how the cockpits kill the car's looks can be seen by comparing the Mosler MT900 and the Chase DP that occasionally shows up to Grand-Am races. I don't know if the two companies are related or not, but the cars look almost identical.

Compare:

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/grandam/2003/hom/grandam-2003-hom-rp-0118.jpg

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/grandam/2004/mia/grandam-2004-mia-tm-0211.jpg

I doubt very many people with have an objection to the DPs if they looked like the first car.

[Methanolandbrats]

1) The IRL would never have seen the light of day if FTG did'nt own IMS.
Likewise, Grand Am would never have seen the light of day if ISC did'nt own Daytona.

2) The current Indy 500 sucks compared to the pre 1995 Indy 500.
Likewise the current Rolex sucks compared to the days of real prototypes.

Slow hideous crap is still crap no matter how many of them there are. That said, If a person enjoys Grand Am, great, enjoy it. But don't be comparing it to Can Am, GTP or the factory efforts of Posche and Ferrari in the Rolex. As far as "doing it right" goes, without Daytona ownership, there would be no Grand Am. That's where the strong arm for control comes in. It is exactly the leverage FTG tried to use to control open wheel. Neither ISC or FTG give a **** about motorsports, they just want to corner the market and generate cash. Screw them.

[Jag_Warrior]

A1: Someone told me she is married to a Citgo exec. What, you thought they sponsored her for her talent and personality? :laugh:

No, I figured hubby was probably a 50-something guy, madly writing checks to keep her happy and accounted for. I didn't realize he was using company funds to do it. Citgo -> oil -> Venezuela. I didn't know what his position or job was, but that makes sense.

She did a spread in MPH magazine about a month ago... and I do mean spread. :eek: Pontiac is also backing her to some degree. They no longer produce the Trans Am, so I guess she's their ticket for gaining more 18-34 horn dogs.

The Mosler is very sharp! A similar hot car (castrated by the ACO and IMSA) was the Saleen. But beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I don't like the look of the newer Ferraris or BMW's. But the Ferraris from the late 70's/early 80's do it for me, along with Bimmers from the late 90's. I don't think anyone is going to compliment a DP on looks, though some are a bit less freakish looking than others.

[nrc]

You mean like doing something other than disrupting every thread about Grand-Am so you can yell to the world about how much you hate it? You already made that point umpteen times. Let those who want to enjoy this year's 24 have their threads. It's ridiculous that everytime someone wants to have thread about the 24 or Grand-Am the critics have to cut in with their, "I think it sucks, people who like it are idiots, blah blah blah I'm a purist" posts. It's total disrespect for those who want to enjoy a form of the sport. Years ago I gave up telling other race fans how much I dislike what they like.

I call bull****.

First of all, this thread is titled "Grand Am isn't so bad after all". If the poster wasn't inviting opinions on that topic then he should have titled it something else. The truth is that many of those "umpteen times" your refer to have been in threads where the Grand Am fans have clearly been baiting or taunting people who don't care for Grand Am based on their own notion that a one-off drives at Daytona or a big entry list somehow vindicate that series.

If people are legitimately trying to talk about Grand Am racing without delving into politics, preferences or outright baiting people who disagree and I or others are being disruptive then please feel to complain here, in feedback or via PM. But right now you sound like a bully who picks a fight and then cries to his mom when he gets his clock cleaned.

[pinniped]

I think SeanO that your analogy gives the counterarguments in this thread far too much credit. A better one would be to say that an average looking dude with average money wants to date a rich beautiful supermodel. However, there are only two or three of those in his town and he can't get a date. So he decides he'll swear off women entirely.

[Jag_Warrior]

nrc, I don't think any of us are willing to go so far as to say we're fans of Grand Am. I'm not sure that Grand Am has fans among the Champ Car set. I don't know that Grand Am even wants us as fans. Going by their previous statements, they seem to want to convert a few NASCAR fans to sporty type cars and that's good enough for them. With all of the docs, lawyers and assorted other professionals following NASCAR now, why not give them a taste (bad or not) of where they probably came from?

Going out on a limb, but I'm guessing ZE, I mean pinniped (what does "pinniped" mean, anyway?) floated the balloon because of how most of us hated G/A with the same passion as we reserved for the IRL a couple of years ago. Maybe he was curious to see if anyone else was willing to give the category a look.

Andy Evans was far worse for sports cars than TG has been for OW, IMO. Panoz took over IMSA and made a great go of it... at first. Most of us want swanky protos back (I know I do). But I don't feel like I'm contributing to the downfall of ALMS, CCWS or Trans Am when I attend a G/A race. For personal reasons, I'll NEVER attend an IRL race. Free tickets or not, I refuse to go (unless a VP from a South American division invites me... I ain't that stoopid). But I don't see that G/A is doing anything but following its own path now. It's not f'ing with ALMS. It's not trying to take competitiors or waging a war of words (like the IRL vs. CCWS).

To me, watching a G/A race now is the same as watching Star Mazda and Toyota Atlantic. Star Mazda is beating T/A like a drum in the ladders, but I put the problem at T/A's door. ALMS can still come out on top, they just need to get some cars on the grid that racers can afford... that fans want to see.

[pinniped]

I call bull****.

First of all, this thread is titled "Grand Am isn't so bad after all". If the poster wasn't inviting opinions on that topic then he should have titled it something else. The truth is that many of those "umpteen times" your refer to have been in threads where the Grand Am fans have clearly been baiting or taunting people who don't care for Grand Am based on their own notion that a one-off drives at Daytona or a big entry list somehow vindicate that series.

If people are legitimately trying to talk about Grand Am racing without delving into politics, preferences or outright baiting people who disagree and I or others are being disruptive then please feel to complain here, in feedback or via PM. But right now you sound like a bully who picks a fight and then cries to his mom when he gets his clock cleaned.


As far as the taunting title (allegedly), I think you're off base. Yes, I realized when I posted this that given the last thread about this, there would be some dissent. However, I was truly surprised by what I saw watching just a little of this racing. I used to think it was the IRL on road courses, only worse, and what I saw changed my mind. That's why I posted it with the title I did.

I doubt that the naysayers in this thread have watched one of their races recently. Because, I think that davel, racing truth and I all can relate to their arguments but just don't agree with that anymore after actually seeing the racing.

I think this thread is more explained by typical internet forum bs dynamics, especially the existence of a group of persons that for whatever the topic is, want to be seen as the most expert or the most insider-y and perhaps others that will argue about anything in a silva-esqe fashion all day long, every day.

[nrc]

I doubt very many people with have an objection to the DPs if they looked like the first car.

My objections aren't purely aesthetic. Have you actually looked at the DP rules? I object to mandating 70's technology and straightjacket tight specs and then touting the results as a premiere sports car series, or even claiming that they're "prototypes." These are little better than sports racers. If these were the "Lights" class cars I'd have much less objection to them.

[pinniped]

I consider myself a fan. Hell yah. :) So sue me.

I am a fan of ccws, formula one, alms, grand am, scca, you name it. Just no IRL for me.

I even might be a nascar fan, though I shudder at that implication and what it might mean....

a pinniped is any number of finned creatures including seals, dolphins, manatees, walruses...It is a play on words from my last name and a bad nickname given me by a coworker once...Hey, I needed a handle and should have thought about it more lol...I'm still a big zanardi fan and am registered at a couple of forums under that handle, though I have just never gotten in the habit of posting there much. Some persons used to complain about the ZE handle stating that they thought I was trying to pose as Zanardi, which I thought was a bit ridiculous but I heard it more than once....

[DaveL]

The truth is that many of those "umpteen times" your refer to have been in threads where the Grand Am fans have clearly been baiting or taunting people who don't care for Grand Am based on their own notion that a one-off drives at Daytona or a big entry list somehow vindicate that series.


What "bait" and "taunt"? C'mon. Somone posts that so and so is going to race in the 24 and they look forward to the race as a result and that's met with, "Grand Am sucks! I hate the cars! etc etc". And frankly yes, a huge entry is vindication. It means that the competitors like what the series is offering. You don't have to. You're not spending money to put a car on the track.

You want "pure" prototypes that cost more money? Great. You'll have no cars on the track. There is no support for that model. You can stomp, cry, and pound your fists all you want but sportscar racing can't do that right now. Grand Am didn't cause everything you hate. It is a reaction to it. It adjusted its model to fit the economics of the sport, just like CCWS has with its now antique Lolas and spec engines. You want sportscar racing to live in a dream world of big money exotic cars that only a few can afford. That may sound great to a "purist" fan, but to the competitors without whom there would be no sport it's not a viable model.

Like I said, direct all of your anger and disgust at the racing world that can't support what you want. Don't direct it at the sanctioning body that adapted its model to fit what the racing world is willing to support.

[nrc]

As far as the taunting title (allegedly), I think you're off base. Yes, I realized when I posted this that given the last thread about this, there would be some dissent. However, I was truly surprised by what I saw watching just a little of this racing. I used to think it was the IRL on road courses, only worse, and what I saw changed my mind. That's why I posted it with the title I did.

I think it's fair to say that on Internet discussion forums if you post a thread titled "Chocolate isn't so bad after all" someone will respond with a contrary opinion. I think that's what discussion forums are all about.

If you post a thread about Daytona qualifying and someone chimes in with an opinion on how badly DP sucks then I think it's fair to say that's being disruptive.

[pinniped]

I think it's fair to say that on Internet discussion forums if you post a thread titled "Chocolate isn't so bad after all" someone will respond with a contrary opinion. I think that's what discussion forums are all about.

If you post a thread about Daytona qualifying and someone chimes in with an opinion on how badly DP sucks then I think it's fair to say that's being disruptive.

Hey, I'm not complaining about your posts...I AM a bit surprised that persons who probably have never seen one of the races are so upset about the series. They aren't the IRL, aren't run by tony george, aren't out to kill champ cars or anything of the sort. We can't hate everybody.

When I get a chance to see Max Angeleli, Max Papis, Memo Gidley, Jan Lammers, Paul Newman, Hurley Haywood, etc. race I am going to take it.

Suit yourself.

[pinniped]

The posting of numerous thread after thread on the subject of the 'Grandiose' Grand Am. Those very same posters with their changes in heart, in posting are explaining that because they've 'seen the light', the ALMS crowd should follow suit or they are being bad sports. That is much of what nrc was speaking of.

Let me get this straight, Grand Am is ‘in’ ALMS, CCWS, Trans Am is not. NASCAR/ISC has the best interests in mind for US road racing or for all motor racing for that matter.

I gotta go. I’m off to Wal-Mart to buy my first DE jr hat. Maybe they’ll have Grand Am stuff too!
:gomer:

Be sure to buy a blow up doll since you don't want to settle for anything less than that supermodel type.

[Jag_Warrior]

I consider myself a fan. Hell yah. :) So sue me.

I am a fan of ccws, formula one, alms, grand am, scca, you name it. Just no IRL for me.

I even might be a nascar fan, though I shudder at that implication and what it might mean....

a pinniped is any number of finned creatures including seals, dolphins, manatees, walruses...It is a play on words from my last name and a bad nickname given me by a coworker once...Hey, I needed a handle and should have thought about it more lol...I'm still a big zanardi fan and am registered at a couple of forums under that handle, though I have just never gotten in the habit of posting there much. Some persons used to complain about the ZE handle stating that they thought I was trying to pose as Zanardi, which I thought was a bit ridiculous but I heard it more than once....

If I was an attorney, I'd probably go for Maco: a shark, fast & deadly. But since dolphins have been known to beat up on sharks, that's cool too. Well, I expanded my vocabulary today (by one word). I'm gaining on lone groover! :laugh:

I have a cousin who could/should be a model. If I ever announce that opinion to my family, I'll also admit to being a NASCAR fan. Til then, we'll just keep this NASCAR/Grand Am thingie on the Q.T. :gomer:

[pinniped]

If I was an attorney, I'd probably go for Maco: a shark, fast & deadly. But since dolphins have been known to beat up on sharks, that's cool too. Well, I expanded my vocabulary today (by one word). I'm gaining on lone groover! :laugh:

I have a cousin who could/should be a model. If I ever announce that opinion to my family, I'll also admit to being a NASCAR fan. Til then, we'll just keep this NASCAR/Grand Am thingie on the Q.T. :gomer:

The whole attorney/shark thing is so overdone that it has become neoclassic american cornball...I just couldn't go there...

about that cousin...sounds nice...hmmm...

What do all the naysayers here think about them big gomerages named sebastian bourdais and paul tracy running in the Rolex? Hmmm...? I would like to hear, to be enlightened... :rolleyes:

[nrc]

What "bait" and "taunt"? C'mon. Somone posts that so and so is going to race in the 24 and they look forward to the race as a result and that's met with, "Grand Am sucks! I hate the cars! etc etc".
Are you perhaps talking about this thread?

http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showthread.php?t=6306


You can criticize the cars all you want, Grand Am is doing something right. Back the 80s drivers from all walks of racing competed in the race and it looks like those days are coming back.
You literally invited criticism and you're complaining because you got it? Don't pick a fight and then complain when you get one.

Bumping threads over a year old isn't taunting? "Guess who said this and then changed their mind" isn't baiting?


You want "pure" prototypes that cost more money? Great. You'll have no cars on the track. There is no support for that model.
I think that model could be successful if ALMS would make some concessions to cost considerations and NASCAR weren't muddying the waters with their sports racer series and lining up road racers who want to kiss their butt to get a wiff of the money in their pocket.


Like I said, direct all of your anger and disgust at the racing world that can't support what you want. Don't direct it at the sanctioning body that adapted its model to fit what the racing world is willing to support.
I'm not doing any of that. I'm simply excercising my option as a consumer not to buy a product that I'm not interested in - and that goes for both ALMS and Grand Am. For the most part I ignore both of them. But if you want to tell me how good it is or why I should be buying that product you'll have to accept that I may respond with an explanation of why I'm not interested.

Overall I disagree with your assessment of the "cause and effect" of Grand Am racing. IMSA tried the "cheap ugly sports racers" and it was a flop. Grand Am came in at a time when ALMS was, if anything, building momentum.

[Jag_Warrior]

The whole attorney/shark thing is so overdone that it has become neoclassic american cornball...I just couldn't go there...

about that cousin...sounds nice...hmmm...

What do all the naysayers here think about them big gomerages named sebastian bourdais and paul tracy running in the Rolex? Hmmm...? I would like to hear, to be enlightened... :rolleyes:

Yeah, I can see the shark thing would be overdone. You know the Steely Dan song, Cousin Dupree? Yeah. Bad song. Bad. Baaad! :laugh:

As for the Daytona 24, it's going to be the closest we in North America will have to an All Star race, IMO. I can't wait! Just wish I could be there.

[Racing Truth]

I think that model could be successful if ALMS would make some concessions to cost considerations and NASCAR weren't muddying the waters with their sports racer series and lining up road racers who want to kiss their butt to get a wiff of the money in their pocket.


I'm not doing any of that. I'm simply excercising my option as a consumer not to buy a product that I'm not interested in - and that goes for both ALMS and Grand Am. For the most part I ignore both of them. But if you want to tell me how good it is or why I should be buying that product you'll have to accept that I may respond with an explanation of why I'm not interested.

Overall I disagree with your assessment of the "cause and effect" of Grand Am racing. IMSA tried the "cheap ugly sports racers" and it was a flop. Grand Am came in at a time when ALMS was, if anything, building momentum.

Where was Grand-Am in '03? A horrid joke. If ALMS was "building momentum," we aren't having this discussion now since it SHOULD have been easy to squash G-A, NASCAR/ISC and all.

Oh, and drivers are coming to Grand-Am b/c there are actual rides available. Good rides too. If you can't get a ride in an Audi, Corvette, or Porsche GT3, why bother?