View Full Version : Haberfeld- Jerk or Rookie Mistake?
RaceGrrl
02-23-03, 09:46 PM
Haberfeld's blocking on Junky should have earned him a black flag. That was inexcusable, IMO. Bruno's near collision with Jourdain was scary enough, but it could have been much worse.
Maybe the officials wanted to give Haberfeld the benefit of the doubt for this first race, but I'd say next race, no excuses, and no slaps on the wrist. It's too dangerous to allow that kind of reckless behavior.
Well if my only two choices are jerk or rookie mistake I choose jerk.
I think its a little early to label him a jerk, but what he did certainly wasn't done "by mistake". He exactly what he was doing when he did it.
I thought he drove like an idiot today, but if he gets a good talking to, he might be able to settle himself down. I'd rather see a driver who is too aggressive and needs to tone things down than a driver who doesn't fight for positions.
WickerBill
02-23-03, 10:17 PM
Reminds me *exactly* of Zanardi in his first few ChampCar races. Words like:
"reckless"
"jerk"
"gonna kill someone"
were used...
Originally posted by JoeBob
I think its a little early to label him a jerk,
Not sure if this is aimed at me but if it is, I only chose jerk because I definately didn't think it was a rookie mistake.
Dr. Corkski
02-23-03, 10:26 PM
Missing a braking point or losing it on cold tires ala Bourdais was a rookie mistake. I didn't see Monteiro's Conquest prepared car having the same problem of drifting across the whole track everytime a faster car approached. What makes him a jerk was that he intentionally forced Monteiro to choose between slamming on the brakes or get launched into the trees.
Originally posted by JSR
Not sure if this is aimed at me but if it is, I only chose jerk because I definately didn't think it was a rookie mistake.
Nope, Grrl gave us 2 choices, "Jerk" or "Rookie Mistake." I'm not ready to label him a jerk, but it certainly wasn't a "rookie mistake" either.
RaceGrrl
02-23-03, 10:46 PM
Okay, is "jerky mistake" better?
Unfortunately it's not the first time we've seen someone block someone all the way down to the wall and get away with it. First race, first case I can see letting him off with a stern warning, but he made another similar move later in the race and he should have gotten a penalty for that.
MightySurfClam
02-23-03, 10:48 PM
Where's the option for good hard racing?
mnkywrch
02-23-03, 11:02 PM
First race - he's learning.
If he pulls that stunt at Mexico City then he's a jerk.
But, honestly, I haven't seen blocking like that from the driver of a red & yellow car since the last time I saw Scott Sharp race!
WickerBill
02-23-03, 11:13 PM
Originally posted by mnkywrch
First race - he's learning.
If he pulls that stunt at Mexico City then he's a jerk.
Well hey, yeah, since Mexico City is in October!
RaceGrrl
02-23-03, 11:15 PM
MSC, blocking isn't "good hard racing." That was a stupid move that nearly took out two, possibly three drivers. You shouldn't have to block and then pinch off another driver if what you're doing is hard racing.
mnkywrch
02-23-03, 11:20 PM
Originally posted by WickerBill
Well hey, yeah, since Mexico City is in October!
My point exactly.
Have fun shoveling tomorrow! :laugh: :cry: :laugh:
MightySurfClam
02-23-03, 11:42 PM
I didnt see any blocking. I saw a defensive move but he left enough room for Bruno to get by both times. It was exciting. Thats how they train them overseas, and its why they kick ass over here. Bruno raced like that back in F3 and F3000 so I dont know why he's giving lip to Haberfeld.
RaceGrrl
02-23-03, 11:47 PM
With all due respect, I don't know what race you were watching, but Haberfeld's move was a classic example of blocking. It doesn't matter that they do in F3 or F3000. He's in CART now.
Regardless, I agree that it was exciting. It was also stupid.
MightySurfClam
02-24-03, 12:00 AM
It was no more dangerous than if Bruno had just slipstreamed him down the straight. Haberfeld made a move teo see if Bruno would flinch, when he realised he was going to try the pass anyways he let him have the room. Thats hard fair racing.
In the limited road racing I did in my youth I pulled the same moves on guys and got as good as I gave. There was never a problem as long as we left enough room to get by, which is what Haberfeld did.
Given that it's hard to tell in that circumstance when the first move ends and when the second begins, Bruno may have been better off to swing back to the outside and take the outside line. If Haberfeld follows he can't use the "one move" excuse. If he doesn't then he's stuck on the far inside on the dirty line and that corner is wide enough to allow the outside pass.
Al Jr pulled this on someone once. I think it was Villenueve at Long Beach, but may have been Greg Moore and/or Portland.
RacinM3
02-24-03, 12:17 AM
I routinely leave room for a car to get by. Plus about 6 inches.
He didn't move twice. Each block was one move. We're told it's okay to block as long as you don't make two blocking moves. I only saw one each time against Bruno. Both times he left just enough room for Bruno. In fact, the second time, Bruno made the pass cleanly. Where's the problem?
In the first move, Bruno was so concerned with getting by he totally missed his braking point. If he had collected Jourdain there, how would that have been Haberfeld's fault? He didn't MAKE Bruno miss the braking point, did he?
We're always looking for good, hard racing. I thought that was it. I realize that's only my opinion, but I wouldn't call him a jerk.
Actually, I thought Pruett and Kendall were crying a bit too much about it.
If he pulls that crap in Monterrey then we can call him a jerk. For now he's just a rookie who didn't know better.
FortyOneFord
02-24-03, 01:16 AM
I kind of thought it was Junky's error. Definately an aggressive move, But all Junky had to do was pull up to the other side. If Mario would have moved back, then we could call him a jerk.
DjDrOmusic
02-24-03, 02:57 AM
It looks to me as if Haberfield has an unhealthy Schumacher Fixation!! ;)
WickerBill
02-24-03, 08:00 AM
Originally posted by nrc
Al Jr pulled this on someone once. I think it was Villenueve at Long Beach, but may have been Greg Moore and/or Portland.
Sullivan did it to Al Jr. at Portland when they were teammates. At least I think it was Portland. It was at the end of the race and for the win.
Jerk. Kneifel should have black flagged him and set an example. Now you'll see others use the same move and can they really be penalized? After all, this guy wasn't, if they are then there is not equity in how the rules are applied, Chris has painted himself into a corner with this one.
You can make one move to block. If he moves once to block, I don't see a problem.
FLATOUT
02-24-03, 11:09 AM
First time poster. Great board! I am not sure if Haberfeld knew of the CART rule or not. In F1 and in F3000 this is perfectly legal. You are alllowed one blocking move to protect you position. If you move to one side of the track and then move back that is a no no, but to go offline to protect your position happends frequently in F3000 and F1.
The only thing that could have warranted an penalty in F3000 for what Haberfeld did yesterday was if he forced Bruno over near the wall after Bruno was already side by side with him. That is a no no in an open wheel competition. I can't honestly say Bruno was there first so I think it would have been ok in F3000.
If the rule in CART is the same as it was explained in the TA race which as I understood it meant you can't go offline based on what the car is doing behind you then he was in violation of the rule.
I think you should be able to block with one move and one move only but apparently this is not the rule in CART.
Regards,
Jon
SCCA Spec Racer Ford
SCCA Formula Sports Racer
RacinM3
02-24-03, 12:32 PM
Sullivan did it to Al Jr. at Portland when they were teammates. At least I think it was Portland. It was at the end of the race and for the win.
Long Beach. The year when Sullivan and Unser were teammates driving the Galmers, I believe. Happened right in front of me. I loved it.
tomahawk
02-24-03, 01:23 PM
I can't remember the specifics but my recollection is that Junky made some "jerky" mistakes during his first year. In fact, he now should be experienced and mature enough not to carry his braking point is so far as to risk hitting Jourdain. He should have backed out of it and gestured severely to the stewards in order to ensure at least a warning...and then make an aggressive move to the inside the next lap.
JMVHO
:tomahawk
I'd let him off the hook this time with a warning. After that, he's under the microscope at Monterrey.;)
I can give Haberfled a few things:
1) He didn't just turn in and crash Junquiera.
2) He didn't block in both directions.
I'd have to see it again to find out if their wheels were interlocked at all. If so (if so) Haberfeld was clearly in the wrong. I'd also like to see if that move happened with Junquiera already barely along side.
I taped the race and watched the replay several times last night.
My observations...
-- Haberfeld made one move to defend his position, albeit a big one. The rules allow this.
-- Junqueria was never alongside him until the braking zone. If he would have swung back to the outside, rather than being stubborn and forcing the inside, Haberfeld would not have been able to make the turn and Bruno would have passed him with ease, ala Al Unser Jr and Jacques Villeneuve at Portland in '95.
-- On the lap before (the first lap) Haberfeld tried to make an inside move on Jourdain going into turn four and Jourdain made a big move to defend his position. It's no wonder Haberfeld thougt this was acceptable behavior.
-- My conclusion, Bruno was a stubborn fool and nearly ended three drivers' races.
Hot Rod Otis
02-24-03, 06:32 PM
I'll vote for rookie mistake, this time. He made 1 move to block Bruno, he wasn't weaving back and forth. Michael Schumacher should get a royalty check from Haberfeld for that move, that was a Schuey move all the way.
Danny Sullivan pulled that move on Al Unser Jr @ Belle Isle in 1993 as well. He ran Al off into some cones that signified the edge of the track, causing Al to get a blck flag. That was the race Sullivan won after his turbo-charger had quit working, his last CART win.
Here's a good photo of the incident. It shows Bruno clearly behind and not beside Haberfeld. It looks like it was taken fairly late in the incident because of the proximity to the pit wall. Plus you can see part of the flag stand at the top of the pic.
http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/large/1442_hab.jpg
Railbird
02-24-03, 07:56 PM
I'd rather have to teach a fairly talented driver the ropes than have to teach a wanker how to race. Haberfeld showed some skills yesterday, he'll catch on to the finer points.
Originally posted by FLATOUT
If the rule in CART is the same as it was explained in the TA race which as I understood it meant you can't go offline based on what the car is doing behind you then he was in violation of the rule.
Jon
SCCA Spec Racer Ford
SCCA Formula Sports Racer
I was going to bring the TA rule up also as I was just watching the race on tape tonight.
Personally, assuming the TA rule was explained properly, I love it. I don't like the I can make one move rule. To me that is still blocking.
I think TA has it right -- you cannot make a move in response to what is happening in your mirrors.
That's the same reason why on some short track races, you are NOT even allowed mirrors!
Rus'L -- a fellow Spec Racer Ford driver.
FLATOUT
02-25-03, 02:57 AM
Rus'L
Great!:thumbup: a fellow Spec Racer Ford guy. Just curious to know if you think there is any difference betweem going through the last turn off line (staying to the inside) as a blocking manuever or taking the normal line to track out and then cutting offline. i think the first instance might be more aceptable than the second.
I am thinking of the back straight at Mid-Ohio where you hit the kink halfway down the straight (sort of like a big inside apex). I you ahve a faster SRF on your tail you know your not going to go back to the preferred line on the outside going into the turn. Is this blocking in your view?
Welcome aboard!
Regards,
Jon
Napoleon
02-25-03, 07:13 AM
Originally posted by FLATOUT
I am thinking of the back straight at Mid-Ohio where you hit the kink halfway down the straight (sort of like a big inside apex). I you ahve a faster SRF on your tail you know your not going to go back to the preferred line on the outside going into the turn. Is this blocking in your view?
Having raced at Mid-Ohio, my answer is no, thats not blocking, and that is the line everyone has always ran with a car directly behind them.
I personally had no problem with what MH did. I would agree with Rabbits take on the situation.
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