View Full Version : Champ Car maneuvers against Indy 500
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 11:48 AM
From speed board post:
Champ Car maneuvers against Indy 500 Since the CART/IRL split and in recent years, the IRL has been having trouble filling the 33-car field for the Indy 500 and in recent years ratings and attendance have plummeted. CART teams have regularly gone over and cherry-picked the Indy 500, taking home the first-place Hulman George money on a number of occasions. In doing so they helped fill the 33-car Indy 500 field. Champ Car has put a stop to that. Their 2005 rule book, section 5.5.6. reads:
No Champ Car entrant may use Champ Car chassis, equipment, personnel or team resources to perform testing of any type for any other racing team in any series, any manufacturer or other third party. The mandatory penalty for violation shall be the loss of all series points awarded during the then current season, exclusion from one Champ Car sanctioned Champ Car World Series event (the event to be determined by Champ Car) and a fine of fifty thousand dollars ($50,000 U.S.). The decision by Champ Car as to whether any testing provision has been violated and the assessment of the prescribed penalty is not subject to protest.
So unless a Champ Car team owner starts a separate IRL team just for the Indy 500, there will no longer be any Champ Car teams helping to fill the traditional 33-car field. To fill the field in 2005 Tony George will have to tap deeper into the family coffers or convince Honda and Toyota to pay teams to run additional cars to fill the field. Of course all of this would not be necessary had Tony George not created the IRL, split the sport and all but destroy it. :thumbup:
Spicoli
02-13-05, 12:39 PM
the only wayt to prevent this from happening is to race straight up against them.
and i believe this is a marxiE report.
RaceGrrl
02-13-05, 12:45 PM
If CART had continued to race directly against them, it would be a non-issue today. I hope this isn't a case of 'too little, too late.'
If CART had continued to race directly against them, it would be a non-issue today. I hope this isn't a case of 'too little, too late.'
Yup...the US 500 should have been run every year. Of course we would have eventually been locked out of MIS but at least the story of TG's ineptitude would have been kept on the front page....
Only problem is that Mark and that poster haven't read the rule. Here's exactly what the rulebook says:
5.5.6. No Champ Car entrant may use Champ Car chassis, equipment,
personnel or team resources to perform testing of any type for any other
racing team in any series, any manufacturer or other third party. The
mandatory penalty for violation shall be the loss of all series points awarded
during the then current season, exclusion from one Champ Car sanctioned
Champ Car World Series event (the event to be determined by Champ Car)
and a fine of fifty thousand dollars ($50,000 U.S.). The decision by Champ
Car as to whether any testing provision has been violated and the
assessment of the prescribed penalty is not subject to protest.
All that means is that you can't work for another team in another series. It says nothing about your own team running (or testing) in another series.
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 02:48 PM
All that means is that you can't use resources that are wholly or partially funded by CCWS to race or test outside of ChampCar. If your team receives some sort of funding fron CCWS, then for example, your tire changer can't change tires at say, I don't know, Indy.
Mike Kellner
02-13-05, 02:55 PM
I have always believed that CART blinked on the US 500. So they had a big crash at the start, it was great theater. It was just one of them racin' things.
A race scheduled opposite the 500, with qualifying or another points race opposite Pole day, would have sharply drawn the differences. It would have split the 500's audience and sponsors, and kept CART teams from supporting the enemy.
You can't win if you are afraid of a fight.
mk
Amanda B.'s Mom
02-13-05, 02:55 PM
So, does this have any implication on VAliante, Bourdais and Tracy who recently raced at Daytona?
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 02:57 PM
The season hasn't begun yet, and probably no contracts have been signed as well. Drivers actions may depend on the type of contract they are working under.
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 03:08 PM
It says nothing about your own team running (or testing) in another series. umm,,,,it says exactly that you can't do that.
I'm not quite sure what the heck that says. :) If it's intended to deter fence-sitters, that's great. But I really think it's more intended to close loopholes in the testing rules.
umm,,,,it says exactly that you can't do that.
No it doesn't. It says you can't take money from someone else to do it.
For example, Penske couldn't pay Conquest to let Sam use all their testing time so that he can learn to road race.
fourrunner
02-13-05, 04:13 PM
It says what it says... If it said anymore they'd say it!
Ed_Severson
02-13-05, 04:15 PM
No it doesn't. It says you can't take money from someone else to do it.
For example, Penske couldn't pay Conquest to let Sam use all their testing time so that he can learn to road race.
That's not what I get out of it.
I think the intent is clear -- if you want to race elsewhere, you have to hire a completely independent staff and buy brand new equipment.
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 04:16 PM
No Champ Car entrant may use personnel or team resources to perform testing of any type.... what part of "you may not use personnel or team resources" do you not understand?
jonovision_man
02-13-05, 04:28 PM
No Champ Car entrant may use personnel or team resources to perform testing of any type.... what part of "you may not use personnel or team resources" do you not understand?
Wouldn't "personnel or team resources" have been used at the Rolex 24 though? Not even a whisper that someone may have violated any CC rules...
I suspect the rulebook wording didn't properly capture the intent. If you look at what section it's in, it's the "Testing" section, and everything in the section deals with limits and procedures for entrants to test.
IMO this is probably to close a loophole like Penske used with Hornish in the IRL. I'd be quite surprised if at this stage in the game it was a ploy to keep teams from the 500... CCWS is scrambling for 18 as it is, last thing they need is to start cheesing off teams.
jono
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 04:32 PM
The 2005 season hasn't begun yet. Is anybody under constraint before then?
jonovision_man
02-13-05, 04:48 PM
The 2005 season hasn't begun yet. Is anybody under constraint before then?
I assume so, they have to obey the other testing restrictions.
jono
No Champ Car entrant may use personnel or team resources to perform testing of any type.... what part of "you may not use personnel or team resources" do you not understand?
Maybe we need to diagram the sentence. It's the "for any other racing team in any series, any manufacturer or other third party" part that renders the intent unclear.
SurfaceUnits
02-13-05, 05:19 PM
Well then Walker's days of holding driver tests are over because they would be a third party.
FCYTravis
02-13-05, 05:24 PM
I don't think the intent is unclear at all - if the rule was meant to prohibit teams from competing in any other series, the rule could have said so very clearly.
The rule prohibits teams from undertaking a testing program for any other team or series. That's all.
Well then Walker's days of holding driver tests are over because they would be a third party.
He can test whoever he wants to evaluate a driver, so long as he's not being paid by someone in a competing series to do it.
Mike Kellner
02-13-05, 05:45 PM
I think they need a clearer wording. My version...
Tony George, The IRL, and The Indy 500 are our direct market competitors, who have tried everything they could think of to put us out of business for the last ten years. Therefore, ChampCar team owners, teams, crew members, and drivers may not in any way, enter, participate in, or support any other entry in any IRL event, including The Indy 500. Those who do will lose points and be suspended from racing in ChampCar events in direct proportion to the extent of their violation of this rule.
mk
Boycott Indy. Save Racing From Tony. Do It For The Children.
Sean O'Gorman
02-13-05, 05:59 PM
I think they need a clearer wording. My version...
Tony George, The IRL, and The Indy 500 are our direct market competitors, who have tried everything they could think of to put us out of business for the last ten years. Therefore, ChampCar team owners, teams, crew members, and drivers may not in any way, enter, participate in, or support any other entry in any IRL event, including The Indy 500. Those who do will lose points and be suspended from racing in ChampCar events in direct proportion to the extent of their violation of this rule.
mk
Boycott Indy. Save Racing From Tony. Do It For The Children.
That would work, but I think this would be much simpler and to the point:
5.5.6. FTG.
nissan gtp
02-13-05, 07:00 PM
I think they need a clearer wording. My version...
Tony George, The IRL, and The Indy 500 are our direct market competitors, who have tried everything they could think of to put us out of business for the last ten years. Therefore, ChampCar team owners, teams, crew members, and drivers may not in any way, enter, participate in, or support any other entry in any IRL event, including The Indy 500. Those who do will lose points and be suspended from racing in ChampCar events in direct proportion to the extent of their violation of this rule.
mk
Boycott Indy. Save Racing From Tony. Do It For The Children.
much better :thumbup:
I think that horse is already out of the barn
see Ganassi
see Penske
see Green
see Rahal
see Fernandez
What a bunch of clods. They could just as easily wrote "Im you get any money paid to you in the form of Yen." At this stage, Im done worrying about who went to what series. Twirl teams hate it when spoken too off the record. Racing in front of 5000 jacktards who really hate you is not much fun.
burn dip****z :thumdown:
Methanolandbrats
02-14-05, 01:20 AM
[QUOTE=SurfaceUnits]From speed board post:
The decision by Champ Car as to whether any testing provision has been violated and the assessment of the prescribed penalty is not subject to protest.
QUOTE]
That is the meat of it. A lawyer friend helped me sort it out. What it means is "if Champcar says you ****ed up, you ****ed up and you are ****ed. Champcar will decide if you ****ed up. You would be wise to consult Champcar before you consider ****ing up."
Hard Driver
02-15-05, 10:49 PM
[QUOTE=SurfaceUnits]From speed board post:
The decision by Champ Car as to whether any testing provision has been violated and the assessment of the prescribed penalty is not subject to protest.
QUOTE]
That is the meat of it. A lawyer friend helped me sort it out. What it means is "if Champcar says you ****ed up, you ****ed up and you are ****ed. Champcar will decide if you ****ed up. You would be wise to consult Champcar before you consider ****ing up."
That's what it sounds like to me.
Good.
What about team owner Paul Newman racing at Daytona? I think it says he can't, but I find it hard to believe that anyone would do that to him. :confused:
[QUOTE=SurfaceUnits]From speed board post:
The decision by Champ Car as to whether any testing provision has been violated and the assessment of the prescribed penalty is not subject to protest.
QUOTE]
That is the meat of it. A lawyer friend helped me sort it out. What it means is "if Champcar says you ****ed up, you ****ed up and you are ****ed. Champcar will decide if you ****ed up. You would be wise to consult Champcar before you consider ****ing up."Does this lawyer friend of yours happen to represent some certain Cicilian gentlemen working in the "import/export" business? :laugh:
spinner26
02-16-05, 04:04 PM
Good Lord how easy it is to make a mountain out of a mole hill. Sheesh. :shakehead
_________________
"However, there is the issue of viewership and attendance. It's very disappointing. We know how much we are putting into the program, and to roll the cars out onto the grid on race day and look up in the grandstands when there is nobody watching makes you wonder why the hell you're doing all of this" :eek:
- Robert Clarke
Its official: Much ado about nothing.
http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/15328/
Not that it's exactly an issue, but Champ Car isn't going to keep any of its teams from competing at this year's Indianapolis 500 according to Tony Cotman, the new vice president of operations for Champ Car.
"There's a rule that some people have interpreted to mean is there to keep our teams from running at Indy but it’s not true," said Cotman. "It's a testing rule and we have it to prevent somebody in the IRL from leasing one of our cars to test a driver on a road course because then that Champ Car team would gain information."
"But are we going to stop our people from running Indy? No. Should we? No, I don't believe so. Are we helping the IRL? Probably but if there's a sponsor who might run Champ Car if they get to compete at Indy, that's good."
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