IRL to Montreal in 2006?

[TedN]

Story Link (http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/TorontoSun/Sports/2005/03/08/953613-sun.html)

Ted

[Methanolandbrats]

Somewhat premature....they probably ought to see if more than five of those ****boxes finish St. Pete before they launch a massive expansion effort.

[nrc]

Next step in the "do what Champ Car does" Vision. Wonder what U.S. ovals they're going to drop to make room on the schedule.

McNutty is clearly a chearleader for this idea. He keeps doing stories mentioning Toronto without mentioning that Champ car has a deal there through 2008. And since Legault "rules the racing world in Montreal with an iron fist", why not get his reaction to running the IRL in Montreal?

I hope our friends up North have the sense to remain an IRL-free zone. Once again, probably the most important thing in determining that will be whether there are clear signs of the Yen drying up before they can get a deal done.

[Methanolandbrats]

The IRL Tards were probably encouraged by the reception CabLite got in Mexico.

[Accipiter]

Isn't that the same guy who had NASCAR going there last month? :rolleyes:

[extramundane]

Awesome. They can share a bill with GARRA, since these two series are clearly the future of North American motorsports. :gomer:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Awesome. They can share a bill with GARRA, since these two series are clearly the future of North American motorsports. :gomer:

Well, we could put the future of North American motorsports in Champ Car's hands but then we'd end up with a bunch of races in Asia. :rolleyes:

[Mr. Vengeance]

"The Indy Racing League has a strong interest in Canada," Nation said. "We would like to be competing in Montreal as well as some other cities, including Toronto."

Strong interest my ass. Nobody cares about the stinkin' IRL.

Toronto, too. :rolleyes:

"Really, we're not trying to copy anyone else"....

[devilmaster]

Well, we could put the future of North American motorsports in Champ Car's hands but then we'd end up with a bunch of races in Asia. :rolleyes:

Show me a city in NA that is willing to underwrite 20 million to host a race, and I am sure Champcar will be there.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Show me a city in NA that is willing to underwrite 20 million to host a race, and I am sure Champcar will be there.

Show me a reason why real road courses should be dropped for some street course s****hole and I'll drop my complaint.

[devilmaster]

Show me a reason why real road courses should be dropped for some street course s****hole and I'll drop my complaint.

Very well. I have typed this rant before and probably will again and again. Let us begin racing business 101.

Very simply. Money. If you own the series and want it to survive, you go where the money is. This is a business, plain and simple. A business that looks for money to put on races. If you can't find money to put on races, then you don't have a series. If you can spend your own money to put on races in your series, you should be ok - aka IRL.

Who is going to put up this money to have a race? Well, if you can find one, a major sponsor. Somebody like Molson for Toronto and Montreal. Molson fronts most of the money to ensure the race happens, and cuts its costs by offering sponsorship to many other major companies like Bell, the Toronto Sun, etc.etc. If you can't find a sponsor but own a track, the track has to front the money itself. Like a Mid-Ohio, which becomes an increasingly harder proposition to do. You have to make sure that the money will come back in tickets and concessions and regardless of what series it is (except Nascar) i highly doubt tickets and concessions completely cover costs of putting on the race.

A new type of sponsor has been gaining popularity in the racing world for the past few years, and that sponsor is government. Governments have a good income (taxes) and are usually big enough to be able to underwrite major events. I would submit that some racing series have gone to this type of sponsorship in the past few years. F1 (turkey, bahrain), CART/Champcar (australia, korea) as quick examples just off the top of my head.

Why governments, you might ask. In the bankruptcy court case, Surfers representatives testified to something along the lines of (my numbers may be a little off, but the point is valid) spending 10 million a year to underwrite the race, yet they see an influx of 30 to 40 million injected into the local economy. This is where the governments see the good in holding a major event. As a politician, I can see the validity in spending that kind of money. It puts people in the hotels and restaurants, it brings businesses into an area. On top of that, for some governments, its a prestige kind of thing. We talk here about how the average peasant can't afford to go to the race, and that's right. They can't, but they will still fill up the place. How about Bahrain, having an F1 race right in the middle of the desert? They fronted the money.

No one, most assuredly not I, is disputing how I'd like to be able to see a race at many of the tracks I used to go to. I have gone to see races Belle Isle, MIS, MO, Nazareth, RA....all tracks no longer on the sked. I would like to see them all again. But i also see the business side of it.

For Champcar to be viable - they have to find places where they will just get paid to show up. No cross-promotion crap. No revenue-sharing crap. CART in its heyday used to say, 2 million and we're there. For it to be viable, it has to be that again. Getting into cross-promos or anything else puts more people on Champcar's payroll, decreasing the amount of profit they make.

In the end, its our job as the hardcore fans (what little are left) to ensure that KK et al, know that when they do get the series into the black, and can afford to have a less profitable race than say a China or Australia, that they look at the tracks we want them to be at. Bring back the MO's and RA's. Spend a little to help build that race back up again.

There's more to my rant, but i have a business lunch to get to. I'll come back later today on this.

Steve

[pchall]

Fred Nation must have bought McNulty two portions of poutine this year.

[sundaydriver2]

The IRL SUCKS.

Nobody cares about it.

[lone_groover]

They're gonna market it to the Frenchies as "Circ du Suckée"

:)

[RichK]

:laugh:

...or Circ du Jerks!

[Sean O'Gorman]

If you own the series and want it to survive, you go where the money is. This is a business, plain and simple.

Exactly. You go to the venues that the fans want to see. The fans do not give a damn about Korea or Argentina or San Jose. Champ Car was built on Mid-Ohio, Road America, Indy, Michigan, Milwaukee, etc. End of story.

[Ed_Severson]

The fans do not give a damn about Korea or Argentina or San Jose.

The fans don't, or you don't?

If the fans cared so damn much about Road America, Champ Car would be racing there because it would be idiotic for Road America to throw away the opportunity to make that much money.

I don't know about you, but I care about Champ Car, and if they have to race in Korea 85 times a year to stay in business, so be it. It's better than the alternative.

[devilmaster]

Exactly. You go to the venues that the fans want to see. The fans do not give a damn about Korea or Argentina or San Jose. Champ Car was built on Mid-Ohio, Road America, Indy, Michigan, Milwaukee, etc. End of story.

:laugh:

Stop goofing around parking cars, Sean. Go into politics. You've already learned how to answer the question you want to answer, not what was asked. You are wasting your talents.

I assume by your 2 line answer to my previous post you will do what you said you would, and drop it.

Steve

[Methanolandbrats]

The fans don't, or you don't?

If the fans cared so damn much about Road America, Champ Car would be racing there because it would be idiotic for Road America to throw away the opportunity to make that much money.

I don't know about you, but I care about Champ Car, and if they have to race in Korea 85 times a year to stay in business, so be it. It's better than the alternative. Here we go again. Before the split 80k came to RA. Last year was less than half that, but improving. Both Champcar and RA are too blind and stupid to compromise and rebuild the event. That means Champcar is alienating a large number of it's most loyal and longtime fans and bleeding itself to death. The Koreans, Chinese and whoever else Champcar courts will attend their first year Champcar Race out of curiosity. Champcar damn well better hope they come back the second year because Champcar is throwing away a long North American Tradition of track diversity. If the Globe hopping, street festival model fails, there will be nothing to rebuild and they are done.

[Ankf00]

steve hit the nail on the head.

[pchall]

Show me a reason why real road courses should be dropped for some street course s****hole and I'll drop my complaint.

Come back with that line when Michelle has condo'd out the Esses. :p Champcar can only go racing in places where a promoter is willing to work to make a weekend pay.

[devilmaster]

Here we go again. Before the split 80k came to RA. Last year was less than half that, but improving. Both Champcar and RA are too blind and stupid to compromise and rebuild the event. That means Champcar is alienating a large number of it's most loyal and longtime fans and bleeding itself to death. The Koreans, Chinese and whoever else Champcar courts will attend their first year Champcar Race out of curiosity. Champcar damn well better hope they come back the second year because Champcar is throwing away a long North American Tradition of track diversity. If the Globe hopping, street festival model fails, there will be nothing to rebuild and they are done.

If its profitable, Champcar would still race at RA. Why? Very simply. A profitable race at RA and a profitable race in China adds up to 2 profitable races. This isn't NASCAR with 36 races and no open dates, they have room to add races.... if RA is profitable, RA is on the sked and China is still added.

And you are absolutely right. If the globe hopping, street festival model fails, I would have to assume that there is no hope for any type of non-nascar racing, let alone ChampCar, in North America.

IMO, this is how the 3 amigos see the future for Champcar - To be profitable, there have to be a significant amount of guaranteed money races. The only problem for us is that, those type of races, the ones with big government money, are not in North America anymore. Ticket money and concessions alone won't cut it, unless people want to pay a couple grand for 3 day General Admission at Mid-Ohio, or have Champcar subsidize tracks that we want to see, ensuring the true fans get to go to the really good tracks. (I think they tried that once, and iirc, it didn't work.)

In the end, the 3 Amigos saw value in this series, and saw a way to make it work. (or else they wouldn't have wasted their own money on it, and would have let it die.) These guys aren't 3rd base babies with silver spoons in their mouths. They all made money on their own, and all have good business sense. If they see a viable series, I have to believe that they know how to make it work. They have a plan, and are executing it, and yes, they are alienating some of the diehard fans along the way. The 3 amigos will either make it work their way or it will finally be all over.

Steve

[NismoZ]

Yeah, yeah...I know, lecture heard and understood,and BIDNESS says run on a 1.3 mile 89 mph (if we're lucky) "track" so all the beautiful people can come in and drink, eat and dance their brains out with their laptops slung over their shoulders. Screw it. You are probably correct...but SCREW it! History? Tradition? EXCELLENCE? Screw 'em, huh? Hell, I'm not even a "loyal traditional fan base" anymore. So, screw ME, I guess.Excuse me, I need to make summer plans to find some place with pic-nic tables and outhouses.

[racer2c]

Just an opinion, but if street courses make up the majority of the races, the car should be changed to help facilitate better 'racing' e.g. narrower, lighter.

Also is it worth the risk to only have one maybe two ovals on the schedule? The more young road racers enter the series, the less oval experience they will have and I'd hate to see the one or two ovals races be IRL style crash fests.
Then again, the more Tony tries to emulate the CCWS by going road racing, maybe the CCWS can pick up the ovals they will drop getting the ratio back to where it should be for classis Champ Car variety!

[Spicoli]

Homoco is behind this. guarantee it. Trying to justify their actions to the ****heads who REALLY control the yen back in kokinawa or whever the **** it is.

:flame:

[Spicoli]

kim green sucks greasy snake balls.

[Dirty Sanchez]

I hate champ car cheerleaders almost as much as I hate irl cheerleaders. :thumdown:

champcar without road america is wack... I don't care what the bottom line says.

[racer2c]

I hate champ car cheerleaders almost as much as I hate irl cheerleaders. :thumdown:

champcar without road america is wack... I don't care what the bottom line says.


Feel the hate. Don't let the door hit you in the ***. :thumdown:

[Sean O'Gorman]

If its profitable, Champcar would still race at RA. Why? Very simply. A profitable race at RA and a profitable race in China adds up to 2 profitable races. This isn't NASCAR with 36 races and no open dates, they have room to add races.... if RA is profitable, RA is on the sked and China is still added.

And you are absolutely right. If the globe hopping, street festival model fails, I would have to assume that there is no hope for any type of non-nascar racing, let alone ChampCar, in North America.

By your same logic, if international and street course racing was a good foundation to build Champ Car on, they wouldn't have lost all their major sponsors in '01-02, gone bankrupt in '03, and fail to gain any new fans in '04 and likely '05. At least the real race tracks had a fan base at one time; they were just alienated.

Maybe part of the problem is that Kalkhoven is so new to open wheel racing that he doesn't have a true grasp on the sport's past. If you could take him back in time and have him spend a weekend at Mid-Ohio, Michigan, etc. in the late '90s, I'd hope he would have a different opinion.

At the end of the day, all I want to do is watch entertaining open wheel races with talented drivers on exciting tracks that I'd have a good chance to attend, or at least watch live at a decent hour. I suspect you all feel the same way too.

[Spicoli]

I hate champ car cheerleaders almost as much as I hate irl cheerleaders. :thumdown:

champcar without road america is wack... I don't care what the bottom line says.

Hey, is "wack" good or bad? (this week) :gomer:

[RacinM3]

I don't know about you, but I care about Champ Car, and if they have to race in Korea 85 times a year to stay in business, so be it. It's better than the alternative.

Is it? Really? Really?

[Ed_Severson]

Is it? Really? Really?

Absolutely. It's either that or race nowhere. I'll take Korea.

Has it occurred to any of you that if you can wait a couple of years before you get your panties in a twist, we might just get some of those old venues back?

[Dirty Sanchez]

Hey, is "wack" good or bad? (this week) :gomer:I hate postwhores more than I hate cheerleaders.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Absolutely. It's either that or race nowhere. I'll take Korea.

Has it occurred to any of you that if you can wait a couple of years before you get your panties in a twist, we might just get some of those old venues back?

Korea or nowhere? How do you know? I don't think that Champ Car (or the promoters, to be fair) have tried hard enough to fix the problems. If ALMS and Grand-Am can turn a profit running in front of 3-6,000 fans at Mid-Ohio, why cant Champ Car do the same with 15-20,000?

Something tells me if the new "racetracks" are successful, it is even more reason for the ownership of the series to avoid returning to the real courses. "Hey, its a business, and if we are doing so well with these concrete lined parking lots, why bother going back to Laguna Seca or Road America?"

[Methanolandbrats]

Korea or nowhere? How do you know? I don't think that Champ Car (or the promoters, to be fair) have tried hard enough to fix the problems. If ALMS and Grand-Am can turn a profit running in front of 3-6,000 fans at Mid-Ohio, why cant Champ Car do the same with 15-20,000?

Something tells me if the new "racetracks" are successful, it is even more reason for the ownership of the series to avoid returning to the real courses. "Hey, its a business, and if we are doing so well with these concrete lined parking lots, why bother going back to Laguna Seca or Road America?" Correct. The street parade model is a concious effort on the part of Champcar because the owners like street races. It's not just money. I doubt they will ever add another race that is'nt on the edge of a big city

[Ed_Severson]

Korea or nowhere? How do you know?

If that wasn't the case, why would they not race at Road America or Laguna? The fans have made it absolutely clear that they want those venues, and say what you will about the current leadership, but they've been very receptive to what the fans want.

Until you're willing to pony up your own money to race somewhere, you're in no position to question where they choose to go. It's not a crime to make a profit, and if they make one big enough, they'll be able to afford taking a loss at a place like Road America to appease their fanbase.

Nobody's forcing you to watch. If you don't like where they race, don't. It's pretty simple, really.

[pchall]

If ALMS and Grand-Am can turn a profit running in front of 3-6,000 fans at Mid-Ohio, why cant Champ Car do the same with 15-20,000?



And Don Panoz and someone from the France Mafia told you this in person down in Thunder Valley, so you don't have a link to support this assertion, right?

[Sean O'Gorman]

and say what you will about the current leadership, but they've been very receptive to what the fans want.

They've been receptive to the few fans who haven't left yet, and are apparently impossible to chase off, such as us. ;) Still, there are too few of us in number, and the number of fans who have left are the ones that would much rather watch real race tracks instead of the garbage they are trying to add to the schedule.

I still don't understand how building a series on a fragmented schedule that isn't quite North American and isn't quite international (so it is just the perfect mix to be appealing to neither side), but is almost entirely boring when it comes to race courses is ever going to become a good thing. The problem with saying "I told you so" is that by then, it is too late.

[Spicoli]

Hey Sean.

KK says you're full of s****. Watch the papers.

[rabbit]

I hate champ car cheerleaders almost as much as I hate irl cheerleaders. :thumdown:

champcar without road america is wack... I don't care what the bottom line says.
Put your money where your mouth is. :p (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=1469&item=5563759399&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW)

[racer2c]

I hate wimps who can't name names.

[Ankf00]

Andy Hall said so :laugh:

[fourrunner]

Evidently the rumors of IRL to Montreal are False ! They made it up!

AR1 checked ... Toronto Sun didn't !

[Ankf00]

I'd have to permanently boycott montreal if the IRL soiled the glorious parc de jean drapeau

[fourrunner]

Ixnay the EnchFray!! ;)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Hey Sean.

KK says you're full of s****. Watch the papers.

Ooh, am I mentioned by name?? :gomer:

[Ankf00]

Ixnay the EnchFray!! ;)
centre de science de montreal is a cool place next to old port :)

[Spicoli]

Ooh, am I mentioned by name??


Nope. You're just an easy target.



















See? you care.
:cry:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Nope. You're just an easy target.

Me? No way.

http://redwing.hutman.net/%7Emreed/Assets/target.jpg

:D

[Spicoli]

there's a blurp on Spyplanes about it now.

evidently, KK says Bullchit. contract won't allow it.

and btw?










FTG with a rusty pitchfork.