Red Bull to run Hondas?

[Sean O'Gorman]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/15579/

I'm kinda disappointed, I thought it was cool seeing them be competitive with the Cosworth. Hopefully someone else picks them up.

[B3RACER1a]

Doesnt seem very smart. Cosworth already has their 06 engine running on the dyno, and with 850 horsepower. I assume pretty much everyone else does too, but still.....Honda?

If they start performing better (no blowups), then I can see it making some sense.

[RichK]

Hm, Honda is charging a lot less to a team that ChampCar owners make money from.

[jonovision_man]

Hm, Honda is charging a lot less to a team that ChampCar owners make money from.

Not following... but interested in where you're going. :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

If this was '03 or '04 I'd say that RichK's statement would be more credible, but I'm guessing that Honda is going to bail from IRL anyway.

[RichK]

I don't think Honda is doing this intentionally to Champcar, but it's a nice little bonus for them, I'm sure, to twist another knife by taking income away from CCWS owners.

I doubt if CCWS and IRL are even on Honda's or Toyota's radar screen for the future.

[oddlycalm]

Doesn't sound like Honda is 100% sure they are interested in supplying a competitor with engines at their cost. I understand why the mfg's are being asked to do this, but I'm betting the first time one of the customer teams beats the works team all bets are off.

oc

[jonovision_man]

I don't think Honda is doing this intentionally to Champcar, but it's a nice little bonus for them, I'm sure, to twist another knife by taking income away from CCWS owners.

I doubt if CCWS and IRL are even on Honda's or Toyota's radar screen for the future.

Tough to say.

What I find interesting is this puts Cosworth in the position of being on Bernie's side. That could be a valuable position to be in.

jono

[Easy]

Not following... but interested in where you're going. :)


Cosworth is actually a very expensive customer engine in F1. Second to Ferrari only. Cosworth is nearly $20,000,000 annually, Midland is paying Toyota about $6,000,000 this year. Sauber is paying Ferrari eleventy billion. Can you see why they're buying Mario Thiessen expensive dinners?

[jonovision_man]

Cosworth is actually a very expensive customer engine in F1. Second to Ferrari only. Cosworth is nearly $20,000,000 annually, Midland is paying Toyota about $6,000,000 this year. Sauber is paying Ferrari eleventy billion. Can you see why they're buying Mario Thiessen expensive dinners?

The way I heard it was :
Sauber to Ferrari - $20M+
Red Bull to Coswort - $20M
Jordan to Toyota - $10M (could be euros, can't remember)

And the new engine supplies being offered by the GPWC are supposedly running around $10M... not bad at all, really.

jono

[Railbird]

GPWC politics more than anything else.

[trauma1]

autosport is now linking Williams to Cossie for next year and that Cossie may also have another couple of new teams,seems like thier 2005 V-8 has the horsepower and that they will be bullet proof like the ccws and current F1 engine, let RB have the hand grenades not like fonda is know for it's reliablity


BMW and Sauber

The talk in Melbourne about a potential deal between Peter Sauber and Williams' engine suppliers BMW was that the deal is close but not quite done yet, with the Swiss team boss having also spoken to Toyota to see what the Japanese engine makers can offer them. Sauber is looking for another alternative because he would prefer not to sell the team just yet, while BMW have made it clear that they want to have a major shareholding in a team within the next few years.

Further complicating the deal is the fact that Sauber sponsor Credit Suisse owns 64% of the Swiss team, having purchased the shares from Red Bull boss Dieter Mateschitz a few years ago after a dispute between the Austrian and Peter Sauber over drivers (Sauber wanted to run the then-unknown rookie Kimi Raikkonen; Mateschitz was pushing instead for then-Red Bull backed Enrique Bernoldi).

Credit Suisse are keen to get out of the team-owning business - their thought process is that banks have no place owning equity in Formula One (something Bernie Ecclestone would probably agree with, given his recent problems). With Red Bull pulling their support from Sauber in favour of their own team, Credit Suisse has upped the ante in sponsorship (note the new signage on Sauber's airbox), a situation they are not thrilled with. If BMW want to buy into a team, Credit Suisse could make it happen.

Meanwhile, BMW's current partner Williams are less than thrilled with these developments, but are said to be looking around for a replacement engine supplier, having made initial contact with both Cosworth (suddenly looking like their old selves after David Coulthard's impressive run on the weekend) and the increasingly popular Toyota.

Toyota cannot possibly supply this many teams, especially if they can't push their own team forward. Cosworth, on the other hand, could be an ideal replacement for BMW - the engine maker's new ownership has focused attention within the company on their need to prove their merit in the rocky waters of supply and demand after years of being, as one wag had it, a communist department of works.

Cosworth, close to Red Bull given their former connections as subsidiaries of Ford, needs customers for next year - they are already well down the design road on next year's V8 power plant, but they need a team slightly more impressive than Minardi. With current rumours pairing Red Bull with Honda (for engines only - the team will build their own gearbox and ancillaries) then what odds could you get on a Williams-Cosworth lining up on the grid in the foreseeable future?

[pchall]

what odds could you get on a Williams-Cosworth lining up on the grid in the foreseeable future?

Sir Frank be nimble/
Sir Frank be quick/
Sir Frank jump over the candlestick.


Note that Sir Frank rarely gets burned.

[jonovision_man]

Sir Frank be nimble/
Sir Frank be quick/
Sir Frank jump over the candlestick.


Note that Sir Frank rarely gets burned.

He got burned for a few years... 1997 wins championship with Renault engines.

1998 and 1999 - Mecachrome? Supertech? ick...

jono

[trauma1]

Mecachrome and thse are the ones trying to poach Montreal and work with underachevver a holes

[Rogue Leader]

Err Renault Engines were made by Mechachrome. The problem was everyone updated their stuff the next year and Mechachrome ran the same engine as last year.

[Dr. Corkski]

Hm, Honda is charging a lot less to a team that ChampCar owners make money from.IMHO the stakes are far too high in F1 for Honda to even give a rat's arse about that. You could say the same about the Jordan-Toyota deal as well.

The Cosworth in Champ Car should be bulletproof since they aren't running it to full capacity but that obviously isn't and hasn't been the case in F1.

[jonovision_man]

Err Renault Engines were made by Mechachrome. The problem was everyone updated their stuff the next year and Mechachrome ran the same engine as last year.

Sort of... Renault made the engines in '97 and sub-contracted some - but not all - to Mechachrome. In '98 it all went to Mechachrome, including the '97 specs. And like you said, they didn't do much to improve it.

Any way you slice it, Frank went to a customer engine supply, and IIRC he wasn't terribly keen on that at the time.

jono