The Most Important Poll In The Universe

[Racing Truth]

Perhaps we don't like it because we know that the competitors in the series don't give a flying you-know-what what we think of them. Have you ever considered that? If they're not making any effort to please our tastes, remind me again why we should like it? :saywhat:

That's right kids, the drivers don't matter. :saywhat:

EDIT: Sorry about that. Not really what you meant. Apologies.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Yeah I probably could, but I've determined now that all women are psycho and have an agenda radar that causes them to only be interested in you if you want nothing to do with them.
Yeah, but they feel reeeeaalllly good. :cool:

[Climber]

Not even a close question - real race cars in a real series or France-inspired gibberish.

[Bob_S.]

Oh really? So GARRA got in the way of Don's grand vision, eh? :shakehead Empirical suggests this is silly.

The last time we played this game, I said that NASCAR/ISC run a bunch of Mom-n-pop tracks out of Northeastern Pa. You called me silly and then I started naming who got shafted. You want to play this game again? :rofl:

[skidmarks]

I may be late to the Railpax dogpile (sorry if that stirs any repressed nightmares from the cramp and brew) - but G.D. I know plenty of people, myself included, who spent a ****load more time and money than you have made in your life, crewing, driving, and working for race teams, both professional and amateur who don't have as high an opinon of themselves. Come on back to earth - look around - you are NOT a "provider of motorsports entertainment" YOU ARE DOING IT FOR YOURSELF! If you are not, you are wasting your time.

Now **** off.

[FCYTravis]

Of course I'm doing it for myself. We all are, aren't we? If you aren't out there spectating for your own enjoyment, what are you doing?

But someone (not me) chose to separate the "consumer" from the "producer" and asked for each side's perspective. I chose to provide my view from the short time I've been the latter. Perhaps I shouldn't have taken the bait. Be that as it may, I did. :laugh:

Nah, I don't have a high opinion of myself. Just another guy who loves racing like you.

See you on course - and I owe ya a beer.

[Michaelhatesfans]

I may be late to the Railpax dogpile (sorry if that stirs any repressed nightmares from the cramp and brew) - but G.D. I know plenty of people, myself included, who spent a ****load more time and money than you have made in your life, crewing, driving, and working for race teams, both professional and amateur who don't have as high an opinon of themselves. Come on back to earth - look around - you are NOT a "provider of motorsports entertainment" YOU ARE DOING IT FOR YOURSELF! If you are not, you are wasting your time.

Now **** off.
Jeez, what kind of candy ass sugar coated response is that? Say what's on your mind, man.

[DjDrOmusic]

I was once told by a member of this board to never get into an intellectual battle with someone who had no ammunition, so I'll just vote....ALMS. :saywhat:

[cart7]

It's looking like GrandAm should be included with politics, as places we don't go. :shakehead

[pchall]

ALMS

Real racing. Real sport. Real cars.

[Sean O'Gorman]

It's looking like GrandAm should be included with politics, as places we don't go. :shakehead

Only because those who do not like it are not mature enough to handle the subject...

[Methanolandbrats]

Only because those who do not like it are not mature enough to handle the subject... A college student lecturing about maturity. Damn son, that's funny :D Here's a board that will appreciate your wisdom ;)
http://www.grand-am.com/Messageboard/ShowForum.asp?ID=1

[mapguy]

Gotta love these Grand-Am/ALMS threads. Do I like Grand-Am? Nope. Not really too crazy about the ALMS too. I haven't been able to check out any GA races because as soon as I tune into a race I have a hard time dealing with the aesthetics of the Daytona 'Prototypes'. I can usually last about 2 minutes before switching the channel.

To each his own. I just don't see a reason for everyone to get their panties all twisted over this. FCYTravis and Sean O' likes GA. Good for them. I like Duran Duran and prefer Ridgid over DeWalt.

[Racing Truth]

ALMS

Real racing. Real sport. Real cars.

You forgot:

No compettition at the top level.

[Racing Truth]

The last time we played this game, I said that NASCAR/ISC run a bunch of Mom-n-pop tracks out of Northeastern Pa. You called me silly and then I started naming who got shafted. You want to play this game again? :rofl:

Please refresh my memory as to when this discussion occurred b/c I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Besides, this has what to do with ALMS/GA?

[Racing Truth]

BTW: For those who accused us GA sympathizers with "baiting," "taunting," etc., CRY ME A RIVER. :cry:

We're we perfect? No. But considering we're outnumbered 7-1 here, I'm not having much sympathy.

H=ll, GA supporters have been compared to Wilke, IRL worshippers, etc. But that's not taunting.

[RusH]

hey, check out Speed.

more bike fans than Garra fans at Daytona, who woulda thunk

[FCYTravis]

I like Duran Duran
:cool: :thumbup:
Hungry like the wolf...

[TrueBrit]

No real choice...Proper endurance sportscar racing or 'Fancy Furrin'-lookin' tin-tops for Rednecks'....?

[nrc]

H=ll, GA supporters have been compared to Wilke, IRL worshippers, etc. But that's not taunting.
I do believe that many of the arguments people make for Grand Am are the very same arguments that were made for the IRL. They race on the right kind of tracks, they give opportunities to grassroots american racers, the participants love it, they're affordable, and so on. I think it's a valid point in that some people who reject the IRL's version of those arguments are evidently buying it from a different salesman.

As we approach the racing season we will endeavor to keep series bashing out of the threads that are started for legitimate racing discussion, and you're welcome to use the report thread feature if you think someone is trying to disrupt a legitimate racing discussion. But be careful. You'll get no sympathy if you try to use a legitimate racing discussion thread as a shield while baiting the other side.

Keep in mind that there is no specific rule against someone starting their own thread saying, "DPs are ugly" or "ALMS has no teams" - at least not until we decide that someone is trying to be deliberately disruptive. But I think it's a fair observation to say that some people have shown a penchant for picking fights and then acting put upon when things don't go their way.

[FCYTravis]

I do believe that many of the arguments people make for Grand Am are the very same arguments that were made for the IRL. They race on the right kind of tracks, they give opportunities to grassroots american racers, the participants love it, they're affordable, and so on. I think it's a valid point in that some people who reject the IRL's version of those arguments are evidently buying it from a different salesman.

The right kind of tracks, in this case, are American road courses, nrc. That's the difference. I'm a fan of road racing. Champ Car's abandoning real road courses for an ever-growing number of parking lots, claiming they can't make a profit. Meanwhile, Grand Am's adding new circuits every year. Just this year they've dropped a Homestead roval race and added a third Watkins Glen race, a round at the incomparable Laguna Seca and a support event for Champ Car at Mexico City. Why shouldn't I be appreciative of a series that can apparently make road racing profitable?

The other difference is that unlike the IRL, Grand Am has never badmouthed the competition. You'll never hear the series owners talking trash about the ALMS - nor will you hear the ALMS series owners talking trash about Grand Am. Don Panoz and Roger Edmondson talk fairly frequently. Scott Atherton was at the Daytona 24 Hours. In short, there's a cordial if competitive business relationship. No "hammer," no track-stealing, no big-factory-team-yen-theft. Just two series with their own rulesets that have agreed to disagree and then gone their separate ways.

[nrc]

The right kind of tracks, in this case, are American road courses, nrc. That's the difference. I'm a fan of road racing. Champ Car's abandoning real road courses for an ever-growing number of parking lots, claiming they can't make a profit. Meanwhile, Grand Am's adding new circuits every year. Just this year they've dropped a Homestead roval race and added a third Watkins Glen race, a round at the incomparable Laguna Seca and a support event for Champ Car at Mexico City. Why shouldn't I be appreciative of a series that can apparently make road racing profitable?

Why shouldn't an IRL fan be appreciative of a series that can apparently make oval racing profitable?

Whether or not GARRA is bad mouthing anyone else, they are using the leverage that their NASCAR and ISC franchises provide to attempt to control American sports car racing and take it in a direction that I don't believe will represent all sports car racing could or should be.

[FCYTravis]

That's why the original IRL fans like Racewriter were appreciative of it, nrc. The folks who've long since bailed off the sinking Good Ship IMS. They were fans until they realized Tony George never had anyone's best interest in mind and simply wanted to kill off CART - and that the whole "oval racing, grassroots, blah blah," was a complete sham.

If Grand Am suddenly pulls a 180, dumps the road courses, cross-schedules against the ALMS, starts publicly announcing that it wants to kill the ALMS and that it has a "hammer" to destroy them, then you'll have a point, nrc, and I'll quite gladly admit I was wrong.

But unlike the IRL and CART, in this case "The Split" was less a split than an amicable parting of the ways - two groups with two differing ideas of where to take American sports car racing. Panoz wanted to hitch his cart to the balky donkey that is the ACO and the Grand Am folks wanted a different plan.

[FCYTravis]

take it in a direction that I don't believe will represent all sports car racing could or should be.
That's your opinion. Some of us think that Panoz's hitching of the American sports car racing scene to a sanctioning body across an ocean that's built around one race all year (Gee, why does that sound familiar?) is a perfect example of the cart leading the horse.

[nrc]

That's why the original IRL fans like Racewriter were appreciative of it, nrc. The folks who've long since bailed off the sinking Good Ship IMS. They were fans until they realized Tony George never had anyone's best interest in mind and simply wanted to kill off CART - and that the whole "oval racing, grassroots, blah blah," was a complete sham.
It sounds like you're saying that everything would be fine with open wheel racing if Tony George had stuck to his original vision. I don't believe that any more than I believe that everything will be fine in road racing if the Frances stick with theirs.


But unlike the IRL and CART, in this case "The Split" was less a split than an amicable parting of the ways - two groups with two differing ideas of where to take American sports car racing. Panoz wanted to hitch his cart to the balky donkey that is the ACO and the Grand Am folks wanted a different plan.
The different approach of the players doesn't change the fact that the road racing split is just as harmful to the sport as the open wheel split.

[FCYTravis]

You have yet to demonstrate how that's true, nrc. You have not named a single Daytona Prototype team that would be running a P1 in the ALMS right now. Whereas, I can demonstrate to you how a vast majority of the DP teams in the ALMS have come from other series or started from scratch because of the business model the series holds.

Kevin Doran could be your one exception - then again, he wasn't running his Dallara-Judd full season in the ALMS because it was completely outclassed by the R8.

SunTrust Racing: New team started for DP class
Howard-Boss Motorsports: New team started for DP class
Doran/Lista Racing: Long time Grand Am/ALMS prototype team
Spirit of Daytona Motorsports: Longtime Grand Am prototype team
Chip Ganassi: Lexus - 'nuff said
Synergy Racing: G&W renamed, a longtime sports car team moved up to prototype ranks
Michael Shank Racing: Ex-Toyota Atlantic
Ten Motorsports: Ex-Toyota Atlantic (Cameron/Lynx)
Westernesse Racing: Ex-Formula Renault/open-wheel
Orbit Racing: Ex-ALMS/GA Porsche 911 GT team
Bell Motorsports: New team started for DP class
Brumos Racing: Reborn for DP class
Krohn/TRG Racing: Longtime Porsche GT team moving up to prototypes - but keeping the GTs in GA *and* ALMS.
Hyper Sport: Ex-ALMS GT team - ran the Panoz Esperante in '04. Factory took the program back in-house.
Essex Racing: Ex-ALMS P675 team

[nrc]

You have yet to demonstrate how that's true, nrc. You have not named a single Daytona Prototype team that would be running a P1 in the ALMS right now. Whereas, I can demonstrate to you how a vast majority of the DP teams in the ALMS have come from other series or started from scratch because of the business model the series holds.

You're demonstrating that I was correct not to go down this road with you the last time. The P1 question is a red herring. I never said that ALMS had the right answer or that any of the current DP teams would be in ALMS P1 if DP weren't around. The fact is that most of them don't belong in top level prototypes. They would more likely be in Trans Am, GT or SCCA regional Formula Atlantic - all of which are likely more appropriate to their budget and level of abiliy than a supposedly top level prototype team.

The problem is that you assume that it's a good thing that a regional Formula Atlantic team can suddenly be playing in the alleged "big leagues" and I just think that's BS. They're the road racing version of PDM, Access, and whoever else was running "Indy Car" out of a pole barn back in 1996. It's stupid for all the same reasons and it will ultimately meet the same end.

[FCYTravis]

The fact is that most of them don't belong in top level prototypes.
Your opinion. Keep sitting in that armchair and saying that. The teams will happily keep running "top level prototypes" blissfully ignorant of some guy who's sitting on the Internet and telling them that they don't belong there.

BTW, how do you think "top level prototype teams" get started? You think they appear from nowhere? They start as lower level teams and move up when they get the budget. Yeah, these teams have moved up because they have the budget now - or they've moved over from a series where the budgets got out of hand, like Toyota Atlantic.

[FCYTravis]

Oh and nrc, I'm guessing you thought teams like Dauer, Dyson, Bayside Racing, Jim Miller, Busby, Fabcar, Kalagian, Momo, Tom Milner Racing, Essex, Hotchkis, Bobeda, Tennyson, HDF, Bieri, etc. didn't belong in the IMSA GTP categories either, right? I mean really, the prototypes should only be a bazillion-dollar factory playground, right? :rolleyes:

Privateers aren't "worthy" of the prototypes. I get it.

Why don't you just throw Dale Coyne Racing out of Champ Car too, while you're at it? Who needs those low-buck guys anyway. Boot Carsport from the GTS class - they're too broke to run anything newer than a clapped-out five-year-old Viper.

Just dispense with the whole racing BS altogether and give the trophy to the team that shows up to the track with the biggest balance in their money-market account. I mean, if you don't have money, you don't belong out there, right?

nrc, I admit it, you're right, you opened my eyes. Racing isn't about doing your best on the track with what you have. It's not about perhaps being the underdog. Racing isn't about competition and on-track action and beautiful tracks and talented drivers.

No, racing is about who can write the biggest check. It's a spending contest, and whoever has the most money, wins - and the rest of us aren't even worthy of licking their boots or showing up to race. So we should all just quit, give up and leave Audi, Newman-Haas and Ferrari to pull into empty paddocks, unload their cars and jack off about how they're the best in the world because their checkbooks have more zeroes on the end.

I get it now. Thanks, nrc.

[Fio1]

The racing is 10-times better in Grand-Am, because we all know that out of the 3 LPM900s in ALMS, the Audi will win....Grand-Am gets my vote hands down. Now, ask me which car I'd rather drive, a DP or LPM900 Audi, then obviously, the Audi would win, but overall I like Grand-Am best.

[nrc]

Somewhere between the extremes of "amateur Atlantic teams should run top level prototypes" and "megabuck factory teams only" is the reasonable middle ground where you'll find me. The fact that you don't seem able to find a leg to stand on in that space should tell you something. Get back to me when you can argue my points instead of making up points of your own to argue.

[FCYTravis]

The only difference between an amateur Atlantic team and a top level prototype team is how much money that team has to spend, nrc. That team could convert itself into an Audi R8 team if you cut it a big enough check.

You're kidding yourself if you don't think that "amateur Atlantic team" is spending more in GA than it did in amateur Atlantics. A lot more. But not so much more that they can't compete. Just more.

[nrc]

Your opinion. Keep sitting in that armchair and saying that. The teams will happily keep running "top level prototypes" blissfully ignorant of some guy who's sitting on the Internet and telling them that they don't belong there.

Yeah, heard that about a million times from IRL fans who drank the Kool Aide because their fourth rate IRL teams needed someone to push the tire cart or pass the drink bottle.

Heh. Got that a lot from Allan Pagan, come to think of it. :D

[FCYTravis]

Pushing tire carts? Pfft, how little clue you have :laugh:

[nrc]

Pushing tire carts? Pfft, how little clue you have :laugh:

Can't afford a tire cart?

The point is that the thrill of participating overrode any ability they might had to make a rational assessment of whether what they were participating in was really of any merit.

[FCYTravis]

nrc, you should do a little research on the team and who owns it before you make assumptions about how much money we may or may not have ;)

But seeing as this is PR, I'll save you the trouble of digging it up. Team owner and driver Bob Stallings is a successful businessman. He is the retired Chairman and founder of ING Pilgrim Capital Corporation, a $20 billion asset management firm which was acquired by ING Group in September 2000. He's currently executive chairman of GAINSCO Insurance, based in Dallas, Texas. GAINSCO and Wells Fargo Private Banking are providing the team with primary backing.

So yes, we have enough money for a tire cart or two or three... :p

[Sean O'Gorman]

Somewhere between the extremes of "amateur Atlantic teams should run top level prototypes" and "megabuck factory teams only" is the reasonable middle ground where you'll find me.

Teams like Suntrust, TRG, Brumos, etc. don't fit that middle ground?

Your IRL:Grand-Am analogy makes no sense because there was no reasonable demand for what TG had to offer, whereas there was plenty of demand for the DP formula.

And furthermore, why do you continually ignore the desires of the competitors? When you and MHF say "just get rid of prototypes altogether instead of running DPs", that is throwing away literally dozens of competitors. I guess that alienating the racers is the way that "pure" racing is conducted.

[nrc]

So yes, we have enough money for a tire cart or two or three... :p

Golly, a rich amatuer racer owner. How could you possibly fail? Anyone ever told him how to make a small fortune in racing?

[FCYTravis]

Golly, a rich amatuer racer owner. How could you possibly fail? Anyone ever told him how to make a small fortune in racing?
You mean sort of like Rob Dyson or Paul Newman or Kevin Kalkhoven or Gerry Forsythe?

Yep, those rich amateur racer owners all suck too :rolleyes:

You're absolutely right. The quickest way to make a small fortune in racing is to start with a big one. You might want to e-mail Kevin and let him know you've discovered that piece of financial wisdom. Maybe then he'll realize the error of his ways and sell Champ Car to Tony George?

[nrc]

Teams like Suntrust, TRG, Brumos, etc. don't fit that middle ground?

Welcome to Travis's world of Red Herrings. Where did I say that every team in DP was unworthy of running prototypes?


Your IRL:Grand-Am analogy makes no sense because there was no reasonable demand for what TG had to offer, whereas there was plenty of demand for the DP formula.

There is no reasonable demand for it in the marketplace. Sport car racing fans largely see it for what it is. Maybe NASCAR's marketing machine will overcome that, maybe not.


And furthermore, why do you continually ignore the desires of the competitors? When you and MHF say "just get rid of prototypes altogether instead of running DPs", that is throwing away literally dozens of competitors. I guess that alienating the racers is the way that "pure" racing is conducted.

I think competition for the sake of the competitors belongs in the SCCA.

Name another top level of competition in any sport that caters their rules to broadening the level of participation rather than setting the level of competition at the highest level that is economically viable? You're advocating special olympics for racers.

I don't give a crap about 20+ prototypes on the grid because I don't believe that there are 20+ road racing teams in the country worthy of competing at the top level. Give me a dozen real prototypes and another dozen lights prototypes and I'll be happy.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Welcome to Travis's world of Red Herrings. Where did I say that every team in DP was unworthy of running prototypes?

It seems to me thats what you were hinting at. Regardless, you seem to think that Grand-Am is aiming to make every team competitive and thus is failing, but that is not the case. There are going to be winners and losers in every form of racing, but at least in Grand-Am the price to win is much lower so more teams with top drivers can run up front.


There is no reasonable demand for it in the marketplace. Sport car racing fans largely see it for what it is. Maybe NASCAR's marketing machine will overcome that, maybe not.

Once again you are completely ignoring the point. The demand in the marketplace is set by the competitors, not by the fans. Clearly they want Grand-Am. I know you hate that, but racing isn't about the fans, its about the guys who spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to put their race cars on the track. For being such a small part of the overall racing picture, you sure do have extremely high expectations for what kind of influence you should have over professional motorsport.


I think competition for the sake of the competitors belongs in the SCCA.

Name another top level of competition in any sport that caters their rules to broadening the level of participation rather than setting the level of competition at the highest level that is economically viable? You're advocating special olympics for racers.

Competition for the sake of the competitors belongs in EVERY form of racing. It is too bad that Champ Car and ALMS do not realize this.

So the 4 car LMP900 fields are the "highest level that is economically viable?" I guess it all depends on what you consider the highest level. With such little sponsorship available in sports car racing, the cars are obviously funded out of pocket. The WSC/SRP I concept didn't seem to attract more than 10-12 cars per race, which wasn't a very high number IMO. 20+ is much better.

[nrc]

Once again you are completely ignoring the point. The demand in the marketplace is set by the competitors, not by the fans. Clearly they want Grand-Am. I know you hate that, but racing isn't about the fans, its about the guys who spend hundreds of thousands or millions of dollars to put their race cars on the track.
Then there's no reason they should open the gates or put it on TV and there's no reason that we should be talking about it here. This is a forum for racing enthusiasts and therefore if the opinions of auto racing enthusiasts don't matter then we're just wasting our breath even discussing it. If you really believe that, then there's no reason you should even be responding to fans who don't like DP because it really doesn't matter. Why waste your time?

You're confused. Competition for the sake of competition is what takes place at the highest level. Competition for the sake of the competitors is what takes place at the lowest level. It's the olympics vs the special olympics.


So the 4 car LMP900 fields are the "highest level that is economically viable?" I guess it all depends on what you consider the highest level. With such little sponsorship available in sports car racing, the cars are obviously funded out of pocket. The WSC/SRP I concept didn't seem to attract more than 10-12 cars per race, which wasn't a very high number IMO. 20+ is much better.
Again, please find where I said that ALMS had the right answer. I've never been to an ALMS race or watched more than five minutes of one on TV.

[JT265]

SeanO says: I guess that alienating the racers is the way that "pure" racing is conducted.


Question. How bad did Garra have to castrate the GT class cars so they wouldn't upstage the technologically-advanced Protocraps?

Is that your idea of "pure" racing?

The cars are as ugly as sin, but if Garra let them stretch their legs some it would take away a lot of the contrived nonsense it represents.

[FCYTravis]

Question. How bad did Garra have to castrate the GT class cars so they wouldn't upstage the technologically-advanced Protocraps?
Speaking on a personal level, I agree. I (nor anyone else) has ever said Grand Am is perfect, and I disagree with their decision to move the GT class to the Cup cars and five-lug wheels. Bad move, IMO.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Then there's no reason they should open the gates or put it on TV and there's no reason that we should be talking about it here. This is a forum for racing enthusiasts and therefore if the opinions of auto racing enthusiasts don't matter then we're just wasting our breath even discussing it. If you really believe that, then there's no reason you should even be responding to fans who don't like DP because it really doesn't matter. Why waste your time?

You're confused. Competition for the sake of competition is what takes place at the highest level. Competition for the sake of the competitors is what takes place at the lowest level. It's the olympics vs the special olympics.


Again, please find where I said that ALMS had the right answer. I've never been to an ALMS race or watched more than five minutes of one on TV.

I'm "wasting my time" becuase I enjoy talking about racing. I hope you are enjoying being schooled by me too. ;)

Here is a question: How can competition for the sake of competition exist if the barriers to enter the series are too high for any top teams to actually compete? If you took the bottom feeder Grand-Am drivers and put them in the Champion R8 they'd still win, but could you say the same about the bottom feeder ALMS teams in the Suntrust or Howard-Boss cars?

[Sean O'Gorman]

SeanO says: I guess that alienating the racers is the way that "pure" racing is conducted.


Question. How bad did Garra have to castrate the GT class cars so they wouldn't upstage the technologically-advanced Protocraps?

Is that your idea of "pure" racing?

The cars are as ugly as sin, but if Garra let them stretch their legs some it would take away a lot of the contrived nonsense it represents.

They didn't slow down the GT cars to keep them from outshining the prototypes, they did it to lower costs. Personally it doesn't matter much to me, its either a field of 911 GT3Rs or a field of 911 GT3 Cups. I do, however, like the 5-lugs, it makes the pit stops more challenging.

[JT265]

They didn't slow down the GT cars to keep them from outshining the prototypes, they did it to lower costs. ~snip~

Uh, yeah, okay Doc, whatever. :laugh:

[nrc]

I'm "wasting my time" becuase I enjoy talking about racing. I hope you are enjoying being schooled by me too. ;)
I been to school but I don't like to teach. I've been to church but I ain't gonna preach. The only thing you're schooling anyone in is circular logic. As Ank would say, you've been 'pwnd' on every level and you can't even keep your arguments straight for long enough to realize it. If I weren't so bored with you I'd have you arguing against yourself in about five more messages.


Here is a question: How can competition for the sake of competition exist if the barriers to enter the series are too high for any top teams to actually compete?
QED. Who said that it could? Every series has to pick a place on the scale where they can be viable. If DP wants to pick the special olympics end of the scale then that's their choice. I don't have to watch it. I don't have to like it. And I don't have to care whether they care whether I care in order to call their cars slow and ugly and say that they're rife small time teams pretending to be big time and hoping by cuddling up with NASCAR that they'll actually get there some day.


If you took the bottom feeder Grand-Am drivers and put them in the Champion R8 they'd still win, but could you say the same about the bottom feeder ALMS teams in the Suntrust or Howard-Boss cars?Again. I have not proposed that ALMS is the solution. You got any arguments that don't amount to, "But what about ALMS?"

[Sean O'Gorman]

Wait a second. I'm the one arguing for something that is grounded in reality, yet you are the one who is "pwning" me (God I hate that word :laugh: )???

Again, how is DP racing "special olympics" level. If lowering the cost to the point where guys like Gidley can get rides in the same 200 mph road race cars as the top teams and run competitive with the top teams is "special olympics", then clearly you have no concept of what defines top racing.


Again. I have not proposed that ALMS is the solution. You got any arguments that don't amount to, "But what about ALMS?"

It doesn't have to be ALMS as my example, it is simply the only other sports car racing series that exists in this country so that is why I'm bringing it up.

It could be the "nrc Fantasy Sports Car Racing Series" with high tech cars being fielded by virtually no one, and the equipment disparity would still be the same as ALMS.

[nrc]

Again, how is DP racing "special olympics" level. If lowering the cost to the point where guys like Gidley can get rides in the same 200 mph road race cars as the top teams and run competitive with the top teams is "special olympics", then clearly you have no concept of what defines top racing.Do me a favor and let me know when Gidley gets into a 200mph road racer because I'm skeptical that one of those underpowered bricks could hit 200 without JATO assist.

You're deliberately lowering the bar for the express purpose of including more competitors. If there weren't two competing series you could set the bar much higher than DP and still get enough competitors to make things interesting.


It could be the "nrc Fantasy Sports Car Racing Series" with high tech cars being fielded by virtually no one, and the equipment disparity would still be the same as ALMS.Once I ran the Frances out of business my series will have plenty of support for a dozen or so prototypes that are fast enough to be interesting. The "Lights" class will have another dozen or so and we'll allow the DP cars to show up and get spanked by them if they want to compete in that class.

[FCYTravis]

Actually, the DP cars would probably spank the Lights in endurance races, nrc, because the "light" modern prototypes have shown a remarkable propensity for fragility - Dyson AER/Lola B2K/Pilbeam style... whereas DPs are, as you say, so heavy and indestructible - that they just don't break. The Lights might sprint ahead for two or three hours, but by the time they've finished a 12-hour race, they've spent two hours in the pits being repaired.

PS: At the one track where comparisons are possible... Mid-Ohio DP and P2 race lap times. I tossed out the fastest of each - so this is the second-fastest DP and second-fastest P2.

P2: Marshall Cooke Racing Lola B2K/40-Millington: 1:22.446
DP: Howard/Boss Racing Pontiac Crawford: 1:20.866

But that's perhaps unfair, because that P2 was one of only four in the field - whereas there were more than 15 DPs. A deep field equals good competition, you see. So if you want pole time vs. pole time...

P2: Bucknum Racing Pilbeam MP91-Nissan: 1:17.246
DP: CGR Lexus Riley: 1:19.496

Ironically, the pole P2 broke at the green flag and spent the race parked in China Beach. To finish first, you must first finish ;)

(Oh, and I used P2s only because they're the most readily-available example of what you're talking about - a modern "light" prototype class. If you want to invent some hypothetical new light class with 2x the horsepower and 3x the reliability, feel free.)

[Bob_S.]

Please refresh my memory as to when this discussion occurred b/c I haven't the slightest idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, I got you confused with another dude. :) The jist of that discussion was that he claimed ISC was the holy grail while I knew what they did to get there.


Besides, this has what to do with ALMS/GA?

See my earlier post. ISC/Nascar started Grand Sham for one reason, to get total control over the old Rolex 24. I've already had to repost this once so it could get deflected again. ;)

[Michaelhatesfans]

"We've argued this to death ad infinitum. I've said my piece, we had our fun, now it's back to your regularly scheduled programming."

FCYTravis
Saturday, March 11, 04:55 PM


:cool:

[FCYTravis]

None of us can stay away from this thread, MHF - not me, not nrc, not anyone. It's like watching a train wreck :laugh:

(Oh yeah, and I'm still waiting for nrc to tell me how rich amateur racer owners are a bad thing and then explain how he can simultaneously support Champ Car, a series owned by three rich amateur racer owners... WITHOUT entangling himself in double standards and hypocrisy fifteen ways from Sunday. If he can pull this off, I'll take my hat off to him. :cool: )

[Classic Apex]

http://ghetto.hjsoft.com/icons/0wned/civicdew%5B1%5D.jpg

[FCYTravis]

Rice rice baby :laugh:

[nrc]

Actually, the DP cars would probably spank the Lights in endurance races, nrc, because the "light" modern prototypes have shown a remarkable propensity for fragility - Dyson AER/Lola B2K/Pilbeam style... whereas DPs are, as you say, so heavy and indestructible - that they just don't break. The Lights might sprint ahead for two or three hours, but by the time they've finished a 12-hour race, they've spent two hours in the pits being repaired.

Glad you agree the DPs belong in there with the "Lights" class cars. Now we're getting somewhere.

[nrc]

http://ghetto.hjsoft.com/icons/0wned/civicdew%5B1%5D.jpg

My RX8 only has 1.3 but it makes a lot of fizz. :D

[FCYTravis]

My RX8 only has 1.3 but it makes a lot of fizz. :D
Ain't nothin' like the sound of a rotary :thumbup:

[Classic Apex]

My RX8 only has 1.3 but it makes a lot of fizz. :D

An awesome 'lil mobile.


:cool:

[cart7]

Ridgid over DeWalt.

:saywhat: You gotta be kidding. Thems fighting words boy. I'll be startin a new topic in Community just so we can trash talk our favorite power tools. :D

[Sean O'Gorman]

My RX8 only has 1.3 but it makes a lot of fizz. :D

So if Mazda decided the RX-8 would be better off as a carbon fiber tub with lots of expensive electronics, but instead cost $100,000, would you, the new car shopper, have been better off?

[Michaelhatesfans]

So if Mazda decided the RX-8 would be better off as a carbon fiber tub with lots of expensive electronics, but instead cost $100,000, would you, the new car shopper, have been better off?
Better yet, they could de-tune the existing engine to the point that a Pontiac Le Mans would threaten it in a race, and then just for good measure put oversized, godawful bodywork on in it. I wonder how much interest Mazda could have drawn with that?

[Sean O'Gorman]

Better yet, they could de-tune the existing engine to the point that a Pontiac Le Mans would threaten it in a race, and then just for good measure put oversized, godawful bodywork on in it. I wonder how much interest Mazda could have drawn with that?

Probably more than if they made the car so expensive that no one could afford to run it.

But all that matters is if a few hundred hardcore fans of it (who don't buy it) think its cool, right?

[Methanolandbrats]

^ 81-13
Game over
Nobody GAF.

[Sean O'Gorman]

^ 81-13
Game over
Nobody GAF.

So by that logic, you consider NASCAR a better form of racing than Champ Car. Or does the more popular thing only apply when it boosts the case of a racing series you enjoy? ;)

[Michaelhatesfans]

Probably more than if they made the car so expensive that no one could afford to run it.

But all that matters is if a few hundred hardcore fans of it (who don't buy it) think its cool, right?
So only a few hundred people like it. That's about 299 more than you've got lined up. :gomer:

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, because a lot of people have weighed in, but remember my position isn't necessarily pro-ALMS, it's just anti-DP. The DP's are a bad case of false advertising. :thumdown:

[Michaelhatesfans]

^ 81-13
Game over
Nobody GAF.
Wow, Sean and Travis must have went to the trouble of getting new ISP's and new forum accounts. And still got smoked.
:p

[chop456]

Keep grasping. There must be at least a few straws left somewhere. ;)

It's been mathematically shown that no one gives a rat's ass about Grand Am. This poll, the tv ratings, and race attendance have proven that beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't care if the competitors enjoy it - I'm not spending my money or wasting my time to entertain them. The business side of things couldn't possibly interest me any less. The technology of the cars and the connection to Le Mans are what interests most people. Your Champ Car/NASCAR comparisons couldn't be more irrelavent.

You seem almost wild-eyed in your defense of the series and I don't quite understand why. What I do know is that if I want to see professional road racing at a level that compares with what's watched and respected around the world, I'll watch ALMS. If I want to watch a large field of ugly, tech-deprived vehicles for the sake of watching, I'll turn to Grand Am or the lawnmower races at the county fair. After all, they're affordable and provide competitive racing. The choice of machinery makes no difference.

Explain to me the part about how the healthy series is the one with absolutely no fans.

It's about the competitors. :laugh:

[devilmaster]

"We've argued this to death ad infinitum. I've said my piece, we had our fun, now it's back to your regularly scheduled programming."

FCYTravis
Saturday, March 11, 04:55 PM

I'll do you one better MHF.....


Post 81603, Jan 13th, 2005 by SeanO (http://www.offcamber.net/forums/showpost.php?p=81603#post81603)


Anyway, I don't feel like going down this road again, so I'll drop it.

;) :D

[JohnnyQ]

Both series have there place. From my experience it's all about the competitors. The only fans I see are the ones with a vested interest (family or sponsors).
I don't think you'll ever see anybody ready to go to blows for there road racing driver like we see in NASCAR.

The series is for the competitors and there litlle circle of business buddies. As for the drivers we have the tortoise and the hare syndrome. Old guy starts the race ($$$) and the rabbit (hired$$) makes up the time he loses.

Lots-o-back pattin around shiney cars.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Wow, Sean and Travis must have went to the trouble of getting new ISP's and new forum accounts. And still got smoked.
:p

Funny how almost all the Grand-Am supporters have had some sort of involvement in racing (either driving or behind the scenes), while almost all the Grand-Am haters are all armchair racers who haven't a clue how ignorant they sound when they cite their reasons for why the series isn't top level or difficult.

I wonder which side is more credible? :laugh:

And chop, you are letting me down by withdrawing an insensitive comment, even if it is probably targeted towards me. :)

[Sean O'Gorman]

Both series have there place. From my experience it's all about the competitors. The only fans I see are the ones with a vested interest (family or sponsors).
I don't think you'll ever see anybody ready to go to blows for there road racing driver like we see in NASCAR.

The series is for the competitors and there litlle circle of business buddies. As for the drivers we have the tortoise and the hare syndrome. Old guy starts the race ($$$) and the rabbit (hired$$) makes up the time he loses.

Lots-o-back pattin around shiney cars.

Exactly. Its just that the ALMS supporters have been blinded by the stupid "For The Fans" slogan to the point where they think sports car racing actually revolves around them. Trust me, it doesn't, and aside from a few short lived periods of factory involvement in the 80s-90s, it never has.

When it all comes down to it, Grand-Am and ALMS are basically the same. Rich guys spending big $$$ to race cars, while occasionally paying a hot shoe to help them win. Some prefer to race more expensive, unique machinery even if they don't have a chance in hell to win, while others choose to race more affordable, more equal equipment while having less excuses for not winning. Either way is fine by me, as it is not my money being spent, but clearly the majority prefers the second option.

My point is that just because the cars are uglier, or somewhat slower/low tech/cheaper doesn't make it ameteur level competition, dumbed down, or of a sabatoging nature. Anyone who hasn't picked this up by now is clearly only hearing what they want to hear.

[Racing Truth]

Do me a favor and let me know when Gidley gets into a 200mph road racer because I'm skeptical that one of those underpowered bricks could hit 200 without JATO assist.

You're deliberately lowering the bar for the express purpose of including more competitors. If there weren't two competing series you could set the bar much higher than DP and still get enough competitors to make things interesting.

Once I ran the Frances out of business my series will have plenty of support for a dozen or so prototypes that are fast enough to be interesting. The "Lights" class will have another dozen or so and we'll allow the DP cars to show up and get spanked by them if they want to compete in that class.

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: I see now. Boy, you're digging yourself in deeper by the moment.

So, on the one hand, GA is a contrived, 2nd rate, amateurish series, but at the same time, it is standing in the way of true superior prototype dominance. Talk about circular logic.

Then, you've said you agree that ALMS hasn't done everything right, but in your "business model," I see virtually no difference from Don's, uhh, "plan."

Stop with this BS about GA being the problem. If ALMS had any clue, GA would be non-existent. It started with, what, 5 prototypes, and ALMS still lost ground on car counts?

Newsflash: If your business model worked, GA would still have 5-7 DP's. They have 22-25. ALMS has... 4.

Advantage GA.

[Turn7]

Funny how almost all the Grand-Am supporters have had some sort of involvement in racing (either driving or behind the scenes), while almost all the Grand-Am haters are all armchair racers who haven't a clue how ignorant they sound when they cite their reasons for why the series isn't top level or difficult.

I wonder which side is more credible? :laugh:

And chop, you are letting me down by withdrawing an insensitive comment, even if it is probably targeted towards me. :)

That is because the vast majority of people that have any sort of involvment with racing are wannabe's not consumers. They are facinated with all things that make them feel part of a series when in fact, they are only part of a club of other wannabe's.

The "uneducated armchair" folks only know what they like to watch and are not infactuated with the feeling of inclusion to the point of sniffing a turd and enjoying it as if it were a rose.

It is the same as any other form of entertainment. I don't go to semi pro football games, I don't keep up with the WNBA, IHL, or CBL. They are all second class at best. I am sure the folks involved are there because they think it is great but, they are just people that aren't good enough but still hold out with false hope.

Formula V, and SRF have much larger fields than DP so, they must be better.

[Racing Truth]

That is because the vast majority of people that have any sort of involvment with racing are wannabe's not consumers. They are facinated with all things that make them feel part of a series when in fact, they are only part of a club of other wannabe's.

The "uneducated armchair" folks only know what they like to watch and are not infactuated with the feeling of inclusion to the point of sniffing a turd and enjoying it as if it were a rose.

It is the same as any other form of entertainment. I don't go to semi pro football games, I don't keep up with the WNBA, IHL, or CBL. They are all second class at best. I am sure the folks involved are there because they think it is great but, they are just people that aren't good enough but still hold out with false hope.

Formula V, and SRF have much larger fields than DP so, they must be better.

Angelelli, Pruett, EFR, Leitzinger, Wagner, Johannson (sp?), Diaz, Wallace, Gidley, Borcheller, Theys.

Second class indeed.

[FCYTravis]

Then the only people that are good enough are the people who drive F1, because obviously that's the pinnacle of world motorsport, right Turn7? Everyone else should just quit, right?

Then how can you stand watching Champ Car? By comparison, it's a bunch of second-rate rejects driving 5-year-old hulks with rev-limited, super-restricted decade-old motors. Certainly nothing about Champ Car is the best in the world - it's a club-racing semi-pro series. They're not good enough to lick Schumi's boots.

[Turn7]

Then the only people that are good enough are the people who drive F1, because obviously that's the pinnacle of world motorsport, right Turn7? Everyone else should just quit.

Why do you bother watching Champ Car? By comparison, it's a bunch of second-rate rejects driving 5-year-old hulks with rev-limited, super-restricted decade-old motors. Certainly nothing about Champ Car is the best in the world - it's a club-racing semi-pro series.

yes.

[Turn7]

Angelelli, Pruett, EFR, Leitzinger, Wagner, Johannson (sp?), Diaz, Wallace, Gidley, Borcheller, Theys.

Second class indeed.

They all had a chance have either been passed up or can't let go of what was.

[FCYTravis]

:rofl: :laugh: :shakehead

Enjoy your narrow-mindedness. The rest of us will keep enjoying all the different kinds of racing that the world has to offer - whether or not the drivers involved are ever going to buy their way into a Formula 1 seat or not.

[Racing Truth]

They all had a chance have either been passed up or can't let go of what was.

Baloney.

Kepping in mind there is crossover, you don't think 90% of the guys I mentioned would be top-tier ALMS drivers?

[Racing Truth]

Wow, 181 posts to this thread!

Well, at least we all took chop's instructions to heart. :p

And I don't see this as bad, BTW. This kind of discussion is good, IMHO.

[Racing Truth]

That wasn't what he said. Most of those teams didn't appear out of the ether. They would be in some other form of sports car or open wheel racing if they weren't running Daytona sports racers and pretending to be in a top rung series. Some of them would be running ALMS, but not necessarily in the top class.

One, prove it.

Two, even if I were to go along with this theory, it is the fault ONLY of ALMS that these teams are elsewhere. Period.

[Methanolandbrats]

So by that logic, you consider NASCAR a better form of racing than Champ Car. Or does the more popular thing only apply when it boosts the case of a racing series you enjoy? ;)
Huh? I'm talking about this forum.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Funny how almost all the Grand-Am supporters have had some sort of involvement in racing (either driving or behind the scenes), while almost all the Grand-Am haters are all armchair racers who haven't a clue how ignorant they sound when they cite their reasons for why the series isn't top level or difficult.
Gee, Sean, how could I forget your vast experience? You could race for the next ten years and probably not dump as much time and money into racing as I have. :rolleyes:

[JT265]

Gee, Sean, how could I forget your vast experience? You could race for the next ten years and probably not dump as much time and money into racing as I have. :rolleyes:

I would concurr, but then I don't wanna come off as an arrogant bag of snot. DP class ain't dumbed down? Whatever.

I suppose Rosie O'Donnell is a hottie too. :laugh:

[Sean O'Gorman]

That is because the vast majority of people that have any sort of involvment with racing are wannabe's not consumers. They are facinated with all things that make them feel part of a series when in fact, they are only part of a club of other wannabe's.

The "uneducated armchair" folks only know what they like to watch and are not infactuated with the feeling of inclusion to the point of sniffing a turd and enjoying it as if it were a rose.

It is the same as any other form of entertainment. I don't go to semi pro football games, I don't keep up with the WNBA, IHL, or CBL. They are all second class at best. I am sure the folks involved are there because they think it is great but, they are just people that aren't good enough but still hold out with false hope.

Formula V, and SRF have much larger fields than DP so, they must be better.

How incredibly ignorant.

Wannabes? Yeah, the only thing they want is to have fun. Hmm. Sit on my ass only watching one form of racing and talk about how dumbe the rest are on the Internet, or go out and join it and have the thrill of a lifetime. I know which one I'd rather do, and which one is way more fun.

I suppose RacinM3 is just a loser and a wannabe for spending all that money to race World Challenge because he'll never be as good as Bourdais or Tracy.

You should really try participating in motorsports. Even something as simple as autocross is more fun than spectating at anything, and the second you don't have the best stuff or the biggest budget but still have more talent than the drivers who are beating you, your perspective on the Grand-Am issue would change immediately.


Gee, Sean, how could I forget your vast experience? You could race for the next ten years and probably not dump as much time and money into racing as I have.

Get back to me when I've got a real source of disposable income. ;) Even making 13-14k a year, anything that hasn't been set aside for college and living expenses goes towards hitting races at Mid-Ohio and Cleveland (and occasionally further away races like Champ Car@Road America or Petit Le Mans) and tires, entry fees, etc. to autocross. But according to Turn7 it was all a waste of money, since I'm merely a wannabe. Maybe I'd be better off if instead of having adrenaline my body produced bitterness so I could laugh at how dumb all non-Champ Car and F1-related racing is.

[Ziggy]

Im glad I stayed out of this :)

We should get another poll for the "real racers" and follow that up in the TurdForum tradition of "real fans"

A three pronged attack, just like the one wiping real North American Racing off the face of the earth.

[FCYTravis]

According to Turn7, there is no "real North American Racing." It all sucks because its drivers aren't in Formula 1, and if you're not a Formula 1 driver, you're a worthless wannabe.

So what's it matter anyway if "real North American Racing" is wiped off the face of the Earth? Doesn't that further prove that nobody other than F1 deserves to race?

[RaceGrrl]

Sean, you need to recognize the fact that you don't know jack about the members here OR their racing experience. You keep snidely remarking that members who disagree with you are "ignorant" and "armchair racers." Putting it simply, you are wrong.

[JohnnyQ]

Sean, you need to recognize the fact that you don't know jack about the members here OR their racing experience. You keep snidely remarking that members who disagree with you are "ignorant" and "armchair racers." Putting it simply, you are wrong.

There's always a bigger fish. ;)

[B3RACER1a]

LOL!! WOW

Settle this with some GPL or GTP mod. :thumbup:

[Methanolandbrats]

Given the reception the Cab Race got in Mexico, I am becoming convinced ISC will eventually have all racing in the Americas locked up. Then it will be horribly clear to EVERYONE what is wrong with GrandAm. That will be the end of innovation in American Racing.

[Racing Truth]

Sean, you need to recognize the fact that you don't know jack about the members here OR their racing experience. You keep snidely remarking that members who disagree with you are "ignorant" and "armchair racers." Putting it simply, you are wrong.

Not to speak for Sean, but the point is that no one here is any more qualified, at least in terms of road racing, to state what is "second class," "amateurish," dumbed down, etc. than anyone else.

Those who think they can fool themselves, IMHO.

[racer2c]

Not to speak for Sean, but the point is that no one here is any more qualified, at least in terms of road racing, to state what is "second class," "amateurish," dumbed down, etc. than anyone else.

Those who think they can fool themselves, IMHO.

So then Champ Car is really better than F1! I knew it! I knew it!

I tried to stay out, I really really tried. :(

[Methanolandbrats]

Not to speak for Sean, but the point is that no one here is any more qualified, at least in terms of road racing, to state what is "second class," "amateurish," dumbed down, etc. than anyone else.

Those who think they can fool themselves, IMHO. People who lived through CanAm, GTP, the pre-ISC Rolex, Jim Hall, the 962 era, Porsche vs Ferrari, Shelby and other example of innovation and excellence can easily distinguish "dumbed down". Second class and amateurish have nothing to do with it.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Maybe I'd be better off if instead of having adrenaline my body produced bitterness so I could laugh at how dumb all non-Champ Car and F1-related racing is.
Again, you're making the wrong arguement with the wrong guy...

[Michaelhatesfans]

I would concurr, but then I don't wanna come off as an arrogant bag of snot.
Yeah, exactl... hey!


:laugh:

[nrc]

Is there a skunk rule for internet forum polls?

[Ziggy]

Why cant we vote twice

signed
Voters of Cook County
Richard Daily mayor