View Full Version : Oh not again
Sean O'Gorman
04-17-05, 07:37 PM
SPEED News' opening story was that Champ Car & IRL are talking again, but that it involves Tony wanting to buy the series. :rolleyes: I wish it was over, but this moron needs to realize that he is not capable of successfully running a series.
It should be interesting to hear what TK says on Wind Tunnel tonight, because he keeps it real. :D
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 07:39 PM
Tony knows he is screwed, so he is trying to save face by convincing Champ Car to sell out.
Don Quixote
04-17-05, 07:40 PM
Just. Say. No. :thumdown:
Opposite Lock
04-17-05, 07:42 PM
SPEED News' opening story was that Champ Car & IRL are talking again, but that it involves Tony wanting to buy the series. :rolleyes: I wish it was over, but this moron needs to realize that he is not capable of successfully running a series.
It should be interesting to hear what TK says on Wind Tunnel tonight, because he keeps it real. :D
Robin on Speed News confirms, but it sounded strange. Varsha's followup questions cut off.
:mad:
Railbird
04-17-05, 07:42 PM
No unification if it involves TG as anything other than a promoter @ 16th&G'town .
Sean O'Gorman
04-17-05, 07:53 PM
No unification if it involves TG as anything other than a promoter @ 16th&G'town .
Using him to bankroll races at the U.S. road courses would be nice.
But yeah, other than that, no interest him running our series. Not that I'm crazy about this current group, but at least they know what they are after (even if I don't agree with it).
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 07:57 PM
Since Chevy is gone and Toyota and Honda are apparently out the door, I wonder if there's a chance that Cosworth would provide turbo engines to both series in 2007.
Railbird
04-17-05, 08:08 PM
IMO this may be more about an engine supply than anything else.
Penske's unification ramblings of last year coupled with his Porsche/ALMS announcements this week tell me something is afoot one way or the other.
IMO this may be more about an engine supply than anything else.
I agree. There's too much engine smoke for there not be a fire.
The Doctor
04-17-05, 08:27 PM
No unification if it involves TG as anything other than a promoter @ 16th&G'town .
Exactly. No problem here if TG just runs his race, they come up with a good common formula (something closer to mid-90's spec with the single element rear wing on road courses and bigger tunnels), and we get a good mix of road courses, street courses, and ovals. Just as long as TG isn't in charge. Get everyone together and find someone who has a long-time vested interest in the health of AOWR and wouldn't mind running the series. It could be promising, but there are too many things that would require common sense to make it happen, so my hopes aren't up.
Railbird
04-17-05, 08:30 PM
but there are too many things that would require common sense to make it happen, so my hopes aren't up.
Yep, better off staying the course untill the manufacures make their announcements, then deal from a position of strength.
IMO this may be more about an engine supply than anything else.
Penske's unification ramblings of last year coupled with his Porsche/ALMS announcements this week tell me something is afoot one way or the other.
Maybe so, this (http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=76417) is kind of disturbing though. :thumdown:
I agree. There's too much engine smoke for there not be a fire.
I would agree if I didn't read this.
"I called Tony for a meeting"- Dick Eidswick
If it were the other way around it would give a good indication that Tony was panicking. But it came from this side of the ravine. Long Beach wouldn't be enough. Red Ink could be enough.
According to Speed the meeting was initiated by Dick Eidswick, not Tony George. Here's the link.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/16291/
George
Michaelhatesfans
04-17-05, 09:10 PM
I wouldn't sweat this too much, guys. :cool:
Eidswick said George's solution to unification is to buy Champ Car but that doesn't fly with Open Wheel Racing Series owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe.
"Dick tells me Tony still wants to buy us out and only wants to run races in North America so, in my mind, that's the end of the discussion," said Kalkhoven, who owns 45 percent of OWRS along with Forsythe (Paul Gentilozzi owns the other 10 percent).
"I'm not here to let this series be driven into the dust and neither is Gerry. We've got some good things happening, our strategy is laid out and if Tony wants to join us, that's great."
Forsythe echoed his partner's thoughts.
"We met three times last year and he (George) wanted to buy us out so obviously nothing has changed," said Forsythe. "I have no problem with Tony being our partner but he doesn't seem to want a partner.
"I have no problem with giving Tony some playing cards but I don't want to sell him Champ Car. I think three or four good business people are stronger than one person."
Asked about how long he and Forsythe are willing to spend millions of their own dollars to keep Champ Car afloat, Kalkhoven responded: "The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."
fourrunner
04-17-05, 09:15 PM
Eidswick contacting TG doesn't bother me in the least
Champ Car says what will it take to reunite? Tony says I'll buy you out, nothing more!
Champ Car says Tony can be an equal Partner... Tony doesn't like partners !
So at the End Champ Car looks reasonable and up for compromise ...
Tony playing with an ever weakening deck of cards seems obsinate, stubborn and as usual Stupid
If Stupid wins ... I give up!
Railbird
04-17-05, 09:21 PM
Review the trends at 16&G'town on Memorial Day weekend..
That's pretty much all you need to know
Robin said Mario is trying to broker this thing. Champcar is willing to allow Idiotgrandson to be a partner. The Dullard wants total ownership. That's the impasse and we'll go to hell in a bucket because the Hulmans want everything without ever giving anything. Tony would rather see the sport die than do what is best for it.
Does anyone really care who runs the sport as long said decision makers are smart and grow the sport in an egalitarian way? Hell no. But Anton possesses neither former quality or the later motive. That's why we oppose him.
Newtpal
04-17-05, 09:31 PM
Nothing new here. Same old BS.
Yeah, TK kept it real. Blames previous CART owners and doesn't blame TG for doing what he did. Robin is far more real...he disagrees with TKs assessment, says both sides are screwed and somebody needs to do something! BUT...does the call coming from the CC side mean more than Mario's contact with Barnhardt? I don't think it does IF Eidswick's call came AFTER Mario did a little preparation. (?) Were they isolated events? No need to be upset, guys. more to talk about if you so choose. ;)
fourrunner
04-17-05, 09:38 PM
I said this elsewhere...
Tony George is like the "Black Knight" in "Monty Python and the Holy Grail"
He wiggles there with no arms or legs and still wants you to Fight & Surrender
Tony George is a Silly, Silly Man!
Champ Car says Tony can be an equal Partner... Tony doesn't like partners !
Wasn't this the same problem CART had in the early 90's?
So let's say they just agree to agree on a chassis only. Figuring they could bridge the gap in baby steps later.
If they took that to the manufacturers (Ford, Honda, GM, Toyota, Dodge) to you think we could be powered by something that is less specish than what we have now?
Could they then agree to not steal races and the best promoter gets the best sanction fees?
Besides Indy getting real bumping and CW doing a name change what else would happen?
Nope, it's now or never. Stars in alignment and all that. **** or get off the pot. Sounds like there is only one pot. TG thinks it's his race track. CC thinks it's the business model. Could it really be CC's model using TG's race track? It used to be.
If I had to place a bet on whether or not anything beyond the status quo is going to happen, I'd bet nothing is going to happen. Tony's mom was apparently too smashed to teach him the value of sharing.
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 10:26 PM
Heard that AR1 is reporting that the discussions were started by a Marlboro representative. I have a feeling that the "Marlboro representative" was Roger Penske.
Sean O'Gorman
04-17-05, 10:29 PM
Why would Marlboro care at this point?
Rogue Leader
04-17-05, 10:30 PM
Maybe so, this (http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=76417) is kind of disturbing though. :thumdown:
That idea is completely ridiculous..... I seriously doubt Porsche would ever go with a Primarily oval series..... that and RP trying to get them in... RP doesnt seem to have much love for TG anymore so I doubt he would be helping out old Anton anytime soon...
Why would Marlboro care at this point?
Because it's a long held belief that they would stay if there was unification. Just as Winston Cup was all about Winston, open wheel was Marlboro more than any other sponsor.
It's in Champ Car's interest to have unification. Otherwise they would not have made the call.
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 10:37 PM
Why would Marlboro care at this point?
I don't think Marlboro could care less, but it's a way to try to hide the fact that RP was responsible for the discussions since he ended up looking like an a$$ the last time he tried it. Technically, he is a Marlboro representative.
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 10:39 PM
Because it's a long held belief that they would stay if there was unification. Just as Winston Cup was all about Winston, open wheel was Marlboro more than any other sponsor.
It's in Champ Car's interest to have unification. Otherwise they would not have made the call.
But they HAVE to be out by law after 2006 or 2007, correct?
But they HAVE to be out by law after 2006 or 2007, correct?
I don't believe so. The 1998 tobacco settlement stated that they can choose a single program. I don't recall a drop dead date.
Per Phillip Morris
"PM USA chose as our single 2004 sponsorship an Indy Racing League (IRL) car racing team in conjunction with Team Penske but has announced we will voluntarily discontinue our brand sponsorship of auto racing by December 1, 2006."
Chitowncartfreak
04-17-05, 10:54 PM
I don't believe so. The 1998 tobacco settlement stated that they can choose a single program. I don't recall a drop dead date.
They are out December 2006.
http://www.philipmorrisusa.com/en/pressroom/content/press_release/articles/pr_september_11_2001_pmucoims.asp
EDIT: beat me to it, FRANKY!!
They are out December 2006.
http://www.philipmorrisusa.com/en/pressroom/content/press_release/articles/pr_september_11_2001_pmucoims.asp
EDIT: beat me to it, FRANKY!!
Yea.. by seconds no doubt. Just to add:
"The agreement limits each participating manufacturer to a single brand-name sponsorship in any 12-month period. It prohibits manufacturers from engaging in brand-name sponsorships of concerts, events in which minors are a significant percentage of the intended audience, events in which any paid participants are minors or any athletic event between opposing teams in any football, basketball, baseball, soccer or hockey league."
They are going, but they don't have to go and could be back.
Jervis Tetch 1
04-17-05, 11:13 PM
I'd get rid of Gentilozzi, but not necessarily put FTG in his place.
Hard Driver
04-17-05, 11:16 PM
Tony is a stubborn fool with lots of money. He probably won't quit until all his money is gone. Considering that the Brickyard 400 is now the biggest race at Indy, it seems like his cash flow is enough to keep the IRL alive alive a long time.
So the eventuality is that the Indy 500 will continue to diminish in stature. But the only way that Tony will be willing to do anything is if he gets screwed by the engine manufacturers and both Honda and Toyota pull out. Cosworth certainly won't bail him out and he will have to start buying engines for all the teams. At this point it gets FAR more expensive for him and the Penskes and Greens of the world only follow the $$$, so unless he starts ponying them up, they will run somewhere else leaving him hanging with a crap series, no name drivers, no engines and a wasteland of a race on memorial day. Only then would Tony the idiot ever consider becoming a partner with Champcar again.
According to Speed the meeting was initiated by Dick Eidswick, not Tony George. Here's the link.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/16291/
George
Nice see they used the famous :gomer: picture of the bastard.
George said even if they agreed on common rules, that hardly opens the door.
"Engines and chassis are the easy part," he said. "The philosophical issues, that's the challenge."
For the first time ever, I actually agree w/FTG. How the fark can you agree philosophically when the Vision is constantly changing?!? :flame:
Each time I think I've reached the limit of my contempt for the bastard, he raises the bar to new levels! :mad:
-Kevin
Methanolandbrats
04-17-05, 11:24 PM
There will be no unification until the day after they shovel dirt on that retarded mother****er. :mad:
Michaelhatesfans
04-17-05, 11:30 PM
:laugh:
It's in Champ Car's interest to have unification. Otherwise they would not have made the call.
It's in Champ car's interest to keep Mario Andretti believing that they're reasonable and it's Tony George that is the road block. If Champ car's terms haven't changed from the meetings last year, what's the big deal? Call the idiot once more and make Mario happy.
Nothing will happen unless Tony George decides that he's in such dire straits that he must compromise.
It's in Champ car's interest to keep Mario Andretti believing that they're reasonable and it's Tony George that is the road block. If Champ car's terms haven't changed from the meetings last year, what's the big deal? Call the idiot once more and make Mario happy.
Nothing will happen unless Tony George decides that he's in such dire straits that he must compromise.
Why? This isn't going to turn on what Mario thinks or doesn't think. I don't think Dick was just paying a visit to TG just tp appease Mario.
I just wonder what the ramifications to Champ Car would be if they had a common chassis. Plus (correct me if I heard this wrong on WindBag) what was said about Newman willing to run 3 or 4 crossover races? If Paul has changed his mind is that also to make Mario sound as if Champ Car is reasonable?
Why? This isn't going to turn on what Mario thinks or doesn't think. I don't think Dick was just paying a visit to TG just tp appease Mario.
I just wonder what the ramifications to Champ Car would be if they had a common chassis. Plus (correct me if I heard this wrong on WindBag) what was said about Newman willing to run 3 or 4 crossover races? If Paul has changed his mind is that also to make Mario sound as if Champ Car is reasonable?
That's something Mario has been touting for several months now. The ramifications are that Champ car gets back to Indy and one other event and the IRL gets to go to Long Beach and one other event.
Tony doesn't like the idea for exactly that reason. He knows that Champ car still has more solid events and if he allows them back to the Indy 500 they'll return to their old success while the IRL schedule and entry list melts away.
The close of the Speed story sums it up:
"The key is to sit down with the decision makers and have some meaningful dialogue," said George.
Kalkhoven's response: "If Tony is prepared to think about things in a broader manner, I'll be happy to meet with him."
So whatever you want to believe about why Eidswick called, Kalkhoven has stated that there's no point in talking further unless Tony is willing to move off his current position.
Let the earl die first, then talk about running IMS.
redmist
04-18-05, 12:34 AM
There will be no unification until the day after they shovel dirt on that retarded mother****er. :mad:
:D
that cuts right through the bullsh**. i like it.
DagoFast
04-18-05, 12:55 AM
Amen. I gotta pair of Mr. Bojangles dancing shoes and a 12 pack on ice for THAT day! :cool:
Tony doesn't like the idea for exactly that reason. He knows that Champ car still has more solid events and if he allows them back to the Indy 500 they'll return to their old success while the IRL schedule and entry list melts away.
Yea I agree. Except I think he will agree on a common chassis.
I don't believe so. The 1998 tobacco settlement stated that they can choose a single program. I don't recall a drop dead date.
I think the deal was that if they worked out there own exit strategy a drop dead date would not be imposed.
I also don't think Porsche is a big enough, or healthy enough company to be a major player in open wheel racing.
George
Wasn't this the same problem CART had in the early 90's?
Cart and IMS were to somehow merge and create a new sanctioning body in 1991. Problem was, the new BoD that was supposed to run the thing was to be controled by IMS with Leo Mehl at the helm. Tony wouldn't sway on that at all. In fact, he wouldn't compromise on anything. I suppose he might have had a leg to stand on had he shown how he was going to make Cart even bigger than it already was but quotes from Cart particulars at the time stated that Tony's presentation to them was bush league and failed to show how they'd make a dime out of the deal.
Not unlike just about anything Tony's done since forming the earl, teams go out of business, manufacturers aren't making money, drivers can't get rides without bringing in sacks of cash, tracks complaining about attendance, etc, etc.
Rogue Leader
04-18-05, 08:37 AM
I hate to say it but I agree with dando here... first time I can say agree with FTG.... HOWEVER even though his thought in that respect is right his "compromise" of him running everything or him buying out ChampCar ins a load of ****.. And for some stupid reason he wont budge off of that... he doesnt realize that he SUCKS and he cant run a business ofr **** let alone a race series....
I hope they tell him to **** OFF.....
The Gomerville 500 IS the millstone around the neck of open wheel racing. Until it is gone, racing will never grow up. Let it die; pick up the pieces; move on.
Skater_36
04-18-05, 08:46 AM
Since neither KK, JF or PG have been involved in any talks I don't think they are taking it very seriously.
Does unification mean I have to sit beside JamesRObert and BiF#? :eek:
Spicoli
04-18-05, 09:28 AM
:)
told ya so.
:gomer:
Spicoli
04-18-05, 10:13 AM
Asked about how long he and Forsythe are willing to spend millions of their own dollars to keep Champ Car afloat, Kalkhoven responded: "The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."
Word.
http://www.tomservo.cc/show.aspx/hammer.jpg
Wheel-Nut
04-18-05, 10:23 AM
:gomer: Did this originate from this:
http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/medium/19365_tony.george.hs1.jpg
Spicoli
04-18-05, 10:25 AM
:gomer: Did this originate from this:
http://www.speedtv.com/_assets/library/img/medium/19365_tony.george.hs1.jpg
Whatever works for you. :D
This is just the usual pre-Indy spin. Since in gomerville all racing revolves (devolves) around 16th and Georgetown, this is just another effort to pump up and revive the Vampyrnapolis 500 at the expense of all openwheel racing in North America.
That's something Mario has been touting for several months now. The ramifications are that Champ car gets back to Indy and one other event and the IRL gets to go to Long Beach and one other event.
Please notice that what Mario has been spouting really benefits his Whiner Son's interests. Poppi may love openwheel, but he loves his son's and grandson's future bankroll even more.
Sorry, but what Mario proposes favors Tony George and would only perpetuate the issueses that have nearly killed out preferred form of motorsports. "Unification" with FTG only means more of the crap that has ruined the last ten years. Tony George and his minions still believe the who racing world revolves around the Indy 500, which is just as stupid as Bernie E. believing that the F1 season revolved around Monaco and all the rest was just a way to keep the serfs from starving from May to May.
Andrew Longman
04-18-05, 11:43 AM
I think it is pretty clear that GF, KK et al are not going to do anything that departs from their business model, nor are they interested in selling the business. There is a reason they got into this in 04. They could have walked away, but did not.
I think they are being respectful to Mario but also practical. If they are to do anything to adopt a common chassis and engine formula, this is the time to do it. But if they do not, then they will be just fine. The same can't be said for TG.
At the same time they are being respectful to TG. If anything is to be worked out he has to be allowed to keep his pride. That probably means including him in the partnership, but certainly not the man in charge.
So far that's sounds like its proving too hard for him to accept. Too bad. Stupid man.
Frankly I'm sick of him, his "league", and the endless chatter about the demise of open wheel racing. I just want to enjoy the sport. If anything can be done to end that I'll be happy. Meanwhile, I am at least content that KK and GF have CCWS on the right and sustainable course and that the on track product is better than its been in years.
Racing Truth
04-18-05, 11:49 AM
I wouldn't sweat this too much, guys. :cool:
Eidswick said George's solution to unification is to buy Champ Car but that doesn't fly with Open Wheel Racing Series owners Kevin Kalkhoven and Gerald Forsythe.
"Dick tells me Tony still wants to buy us out and only wants to run races in North America so, in my mind, that's the end of the discussion," said Kalkhoven, who owns 45 percent of OWRS along with Forsythe (Paul Gentilozzi owns the other 10 percent).
"I'm not here to let this series be driven into the dust and neither is Gerry. We've got some good things happening, our strategy is laid out and if Tony wants to join us, that's great."
Forsythe echoed his partner's thoughts.
"We met three times last year and he (George) wanted to buy us out so obviously nothing has changed," said Forsythe. "I have no problem with Tony being our partner but he doesn't seem to want a partner.
"I have no problem with giving Tony some playing cards but I don't want to sell him Champ Car. I think three or four good business people are stronger than one person."
Asked about how long he and Forsythe are willing to spend millions of their own dollars to keep Champ Car afloat, Kalkhoven responded: "The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."
Well, TG running the thing is the worst idea, but having 3-5 running is almost as idiotic, IMHO. One person, outside of the current stupidity to run the damn thing.
Sean O'Gorman
04-18-05, 11:57 AM
Well, TG running the thing is the worst idea, but having 3-5 running is almost as idiotic, IMHO. One person, outside of the current stupidity to run the damn thing.
Yep. Bring in someone who has been successful in sports business, give him the rest of the year to learn about open wheel, then put him as THE guy in charge. Sit back and watch the sport grow.
Andrew Longman
04-18-05, 12:22 PM
Well, TG running the thing is the worst idea, but having 3-5 running is almost as idiotic, IMHO. One person, outside of the current stupidity to run the damn thing.
3-5 people owning the sport isn't a problem, but that's different than running it. Eidswick is CCWS president. He runs things. That's why he was the one to talk to TG.
Spicoli
04-18-05, 12:35 PM
Yep. Bring in someone who has been successful in sports business, give him the rest of the year to learn about open wheel, then put him as THE guy in charge. Sit back and watch the sport grow.
jeebus, are you that dumb? Its not about fairness and logic. Its about billionaires and power and egos and millionaires and money.
The ONLY way unification happens is if FTG buys into CCWS, folds up the EARL, and concentrates on Special Ed's career. You really think he's gonna do that? The odds are staggering, but he is not compelled to give it up for any reason at all. I have a slight glimpse into FTG's worth and income. What I do know would probably shock you. He makes enough money waking up in the morning - just from one income source - to feed the EARL to the tune of about 100million a year.
The only sense he could find in closing up the IRL is realizing his league is something no one wanted to begin with. He's tried about every "version" of the "Vision" you can think of, and it gets worse every year.
FTg is a VERY wealthy man, and he and KK can both run their sports as long as they are alive.
You may ask: Do you think FTG will buy into CCWS? I think its the sanest, most logical, and the asolutely right thing to do. But I would bet he'll continue on this suicidal path for our sport. Make me look dumb Tony. I want my race back.
Racing Truth
04-18-05, 12:44 PM
3-5 people owning the sport isn't a problem, but that's different than running it. Eidswick is CCWS president. He runs things. That's why he was the one to talk to TG.
Fine, but does anyone else here question how much REAL power Eidswick has? Do you doubt that KK and GF are the decision-makers?
H=ll, that was "technically" true of old CART, but it was still the inmates that ran the asylum.
Sean O'Gorman
04-18-05, 12:47 PM
jeebus, are you that dumb? Its not about fairness and logic. Its about billionaires and power and egos and millionaires and money.
You think I don't already know that?
I was just saying what should happen, not what is going to happen.
Spicoli
04-18-05, 12:58 PM
Eidswick: Watches the money. Knows very little about racing.
Cottman: Watches the product.
Tony Cottman could end up with the bigger voice. Dood knows what he is doing. Lots of experience, and was very close at one time to starting his own CCWS team. He's been with Bary Green since the old days at Forsythe.
Tony Cottman could end up with the bigger voice. Dood knows what he is doing. True dat. But he does want Indy. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? I dunno.
Oh, check out Robin's take: http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8914
It would also be a great promotional tool for both sides. IRL vs. Champ Car on the same track would be a storyline from the start of May until the checkered flag. And you know 2002 Indy winner Paul Tracy would spice things up during the month. :laugh:
George told some people recently he'd like to see things go back the way they used to be and I couldn't agree more.
Spicoli
04-18-05, 01:25 PM
True dat. But he does want Indy. Is that a good thing, or a bad thing? I dunno.
Oh, check out Robin's take: http://www.champcarworldseries.com/News/Article.asp?ID=8914
:laugh:
Well, no ****ing **** sherlock. :gomer:
Of course CCWS wants indy back. So do I.
devilmaster
04-18-05, 01:51 PM
Let Champ Car run everything but Indy
As much as I doubt FTG would ever agree to that, I don't know if I would even want that scenario again.
For that to happen, Tony would have to admit that he was wrong, and that he wrecked open wheel. First off, that is just soooo unlikely.
2nd, if they were to 'partner' or have it the way it used to be, like the quote above, what stops Tony from still sticking his nose in the way? I don't see how it could work. In the end, its still Tony's race which he uses as his ace in the hole to gain as much power as he can.
As much as I want to agree with everyone here and sit back and watch the IRL die because T&H left, I just don't see it happening. Tony has shown time and time again that he has more money than brains, and if the family trust hasn't stopped his spending spree yet, I can't see them saying no now.
If KK is telling the truth that he can hold out forever, then wait it out. Do not rush into anything. See how it all plays out. Like someone else said. Bargain from an assured position of strength.
Steve
trauma1
04-18-05, 02:12 PM
KK is bargining from strength, they have engines something earl and FG will not have, they have a voice in chassis design, Penskie is awful quiet and going to ALMS, same with cipster, execpt for his yoda wil finish thier contract which most know will not happen, Honda will follow maybe, however they say they are building a engine for 2007 and claim they don't know what the specs for earl 2007 is, well something doesn't add up with honda. putting $$ into engine developement and unsure of the specs, HUH? they know the spec for 2007 and chevy and yoda know what it is and that's why yoda and chevy are gone, the new spec engine from honda is a $$$ hog and will cost teams an arm and a leg to get, except for FMA, yoda to neccar with firestone isn't good, and something is behind the hoosier test at IMS
Spicoli
04-18-05, 02:16 PM
keep your eye on Bridhestone/firestone too.
Speyer was behind the mewrger talks a year or so ago. ;)
trauma1
04-18-05, 02:32 PM
spicoli bet honda knows what the earl 2007 specs engine is and so does yoda and chevy, and that's why honda is building a 2007 already and chevy and yoda are bailing,
Spicoli
04-18-05, 02:50 PM
spicoli bet honda knows what the earl 2007 specs engine is and so does yoda and chevy, and that's why honda is building a 2007 already and chevy and yoda are bailing,
Im not sure I buy ANYTHING Fhonda sez. Remember 2001-2002 CART? What WOULD make sense is that Honda makes engines for a united OW series. Continuing in the EARL with no Yoda and no GM does nothing for their 100 million.
Clarke has said racing in front of empty grandstands is getting old.
trauma1
04-18-05, 03:05 PM
yeah i remember fonda BS, however they have FTG by the balls, unless fonda knows ccws 2007 spec, but wouldn't have that already leaked out, this crap that they are proceding in developing a 2007 earl engine only makes sense to me if they already know earls specs for 2007 and that cheever mechachrome is in the hunt for the other orders or menard. but they all blow up any way :confused:
TorontoWorker
04-18-05, 03:27 PM
"The agreement limits each participating manufacturer to a single brand-name sponsorship in any 12-month period. It prohibits manufacturers from engaging in brand-name sponsorships of concerts, events in which minors are a significant percentage of the intended audience, events in which any paid participants are minors or any athletic event between opposing teams in any football, basketball, baseball, soccer or hockey league."
They are going, but they don't have to go and could be back.
However... The Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) which is being promoted by the World Health Organization (WHO), part of the UN - has been in the business of signing up most of the world to adhere to this agreement. Part of this agreement lead to the EU banning F1 from the TV screens across Europe AND ELSEWHERE after 2006 if F1 STILL had tobacco on billboards or race cars. This also applies to still images in magazines and newspapers.
In effect: Any race shown on European TV from the USA AFTER 2006 that still had Tobacco products shown could have the program cutoff and or a large fine applied. Unless TV producers wish to go to great lengths dubbing out Tobacco images on a tape delay - it in effect stamps out offshore sales of US based race series with Tobacco still on the cars or track signage - such as the INDY 500.
Philip Morris has tried to highjack the US position on FCTC - but it is a matter of time before the amount of money they pay into the racing industry is outweighed by WHO sanctions against the US and all the other non-tobacco racing sponsors asking them to leave the sport.
Tobacco is gone Dec 06 and it is not coming back. Period. Double period.
Andrew Longman
04-18-05, 03:44 PM
Fine, but does anyone else here question how much REAL power Eidswick has? Do you doubt that KK and GF are the decision-makers?
H=ll, that was "technically" true of old CART, but it was still the inmates that ran the asylum.
No direct knowledge here, but you notice that Eidswick met with TG not Barnhart.
My impression is that KK and GF act as any good owner would; setting strategy, finding partners and alliances, and ensuring the business is run well (but not running it themselves, leave that to paid talent).
Its too early to tell how TG will act now that he passed the presidency to Barnhart, but if I were a betting man I wouldn't bet on Barnhart.
Spicoli
04-18-05, 03:52 PM
First meetings were Barnhart & unger meeting with Tony Cottman. the latest meeting was FTG & Eidwick. KK won;t meet with FTG again, as he wasted his time with FTG onbce already.
First meetings were Barnhart & unger meeting with Tony Cottman. the latest meeting was FTG & Eidwick. KK won;t meet with FTG again, as he wasted his time with FTG onbce already.
That probably explains where the TG wants to buy out CCWS came from which TG denied. Of course he could deny it, he didn't propose to buy out CCWS, BB and Unger did working as his agent.
Racing Truth
04-18-05, 04:17 PM
Let's step back for an analysis here:
We hear this talk on an almost yearly basis. Same old, same old.
Miller basically said "nothing happened."
At this point, I would stop this and say it's just media-induced speculation, however:
Uncertain engine situation for IRL
Miller claims he had the longest conversation in 7-8 yrs. with TG. That would seem odd to me if nothing was happening here.
Article on this subject posted on ChampCar website. Again, odd if nothing will happen.
What does it mean? H=ll if I know, but don't get your hopes up, yet don't totally dismiss it.
There, wasn't that useful? :gomer: ;) :saywhat:
trauma1
04-18-05, 04:20 PM
anything FTG is involved with is totally useless :rofl:
oddlycalm
04-18-05, 05:49 PM
FTg is a VERY wealthy man, and he and KK can both run their sports as long as they are alive. True, though the Cosworth purchase may turn out to be something of a tipping point of sorts. It's not a question of when the engine suppliers/primary sponsors will bail, it's just a matter of when. A stock block/tuner based series will make the crapwagons even more laughable than they are today. It's vividly clear that there isn't an EARL business plan, but what momentum there is has it running into a brick wall X number of years out. The adjustments seen at Penske and TCGR simply confirm what most of us suspected.
By contrast, the CCWS business plan has become clear, and while many of us are less than thrilled about the particulars, few have serious doubts that it will succeed with the best markets on the Pacific Rim to choose from. With Cosworth providing the hardware underpinnings, CCWS also enjoys the flexibility to take the equipment formula wherever they wish. This doesn't preclude other engine suppliers, but it allows ultimate independence whatever the mood swings of those competing suppliers might be. This is a business model that holds the promise of profitability and independence from the dreary stranglehold of ISC and doesn't need to exist in jaundiced shadow of the IMS. Loss of any single venue such as the LBGP would be a disappointment, but would not materially alter their plans.
Until Ftg puts on his reality glasses and takes a look around (don't hold your breath) nothing will change. KK & JF are clearly on their own path and are only paying minor attention to what the EARL is doing. In the end, the real losers are the hardcore natural terrain road course fans and before long the hardcore oval fans as well. There is no doubt that KK, JF and Ftg will all be doing well financially and having fun regardless.
oc
In effect: Any race shown on European TV from the USA AFTER 2006 that still had Tobacco products shown could have the program cutoff and or a large fine applied. Unless TV producers wish to go to great lengths dubbing out Tobacco images on a tape delay - it in effect stamps out offshore sales of US based race series with Tobacco still on the cars or track signage - such as the INDY 500.
Interesting. I bet it would be relatively simple to develop a paint/display scheme that wouldn't be readable on TV. That might be counter productive though.
Anyway, giving TG the considerable benefit of a large doubt that he'd ever cooperate with anyone, I think he'd be a fool to agree to a common formula without some other concession from OWRS. Any promoter would be able to decide whether to deal with OWRS or the IRL. There's little doubt in my mind who they'd choose. TG would wind up with one race again.
I think OWRS would need to find a way for the IRL to be comfortable in the purpose for which it was originally (ostensibly) intended. I'd be happy with that. TG could have his own backyard to play in and it would create a rivalry for Indy.
The only other way would be for everyone to finally pull the plug on the IRL. It looks like that might be happening so maybe concessions aren't necessary.
Railbird
04-18-05, 08:53 PM
oddly calm nails another great post. :thumbup:
DagoFast
04-18-05, 10:48 PM
Some folks won't like it, but the BEST thing to do is to walk away from ANYTHING about the hickyard.
In his greed to be king, Ftg killed his own race. Why should anybody but a hulman/george try to bring it back to life? So the gomer royal family can use it against those people AGAIN? Let ftg play in his big sandbox. Alone.
The magic is gone. It's time is past. Move on.
eiregosod
04-19-05, 12:22 AM
TG has no loyal customers, except AJ, Cheever, Vision, Hemelgarn & PDM , not exactly the ideal building block for a series is it. (lets face it the top EARL teams will follow the Yen when they leave)
FTG still has his race, & holds the keys to a TV deal. He would make more money if he goes back to having things were pre-1996. I'm sure if he came to an agreement that he wouldn't have to pay OWRS sanctioning fees and would pocket the Indy 500 TV monies
... I'm sure if he came to an agreement that he wouldn't have to pay OWRS sanctioning fees and would pocket the Indy 500 TV monies
TG never paid CART sanctioning fees and always pocketed the TV money for his mommie's race.
Brian Brainfart is full of $#!+ (http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/indycar/16325/)
"There was absolutely nothing new put on the table at that meeting , and there was certainly nothing that's of interest to us," Barnhart said. "The worst part is that it comes right before the start of the month of May. It happens every year. How can that be a coincidence?," he complained.
The window of opportunity for the talks was pitched to both sides by Mario Andretti, who outlined that the two series are due for new technical packages in 2007 and thus could try and make their cars and engines interchangeable. But echoing Tony George’s views, Barnhart does not believe the technical aspect to be the biggest obstacle towards reunification.
"Equipment is not what has separated these groups for the past 10 years. [B]It's philosophical issues, [such as] where do you run, who makes the decisions, things like that. [On those regards], we're still in the same place we've been for 10 years." What a crock! These people actually think they stand for the same things now that they did 10 years ago?! They are completely dillusional and that is why extinction (of one or the other or the whole) will happen before reunification.
The technical differences may not be the biggest problem. But when you have a complicated issue, you solve the easy problems first, then work your way to the more difficult ones.
who makes the decisions
This is all it has ever been about. I think he'll run the entire sport into the ground (if it isn't there already) before he gives up the power he thinks he has.
FTG!
trauma1
04-19-05, 11:51 AM
typical FTG of doing things send the check book, hey FTG CCWS and the fans cannot be bought and bribed, we don't deal with yen, :flame:
Chitowncartfreak
04-19-05, 12:04 PM
I think Barnhart is way off base here. If they didn't want this to distract from the month of May, they shouldn't have accepted Eidswick's offer to talk. They are responsible for the distraction.
racer2c
04-19-05, 12:32 PM
Brainfart is just pissed that Eidswick went directly to Tony. Brainfart is the head of the IRL now. :rolleyes:
Attention Mario: Tony George doesn't like your idea. He doesn't care about what makes sense for open wheel racing. All he cares about is whether he controls whatever is left of it.
It's just unfortunate that every time Champ car gets a new leader they seem to have to find this out for themselves. If Mario has any other ideas, express your sympathies and give him a business card to pass along in case Tony wants to talk about selling some property in Speedway, Indiana.
Sean O'Gorman
04-19-05, 03:09 PM
Next time they meet, Eidswick should offer to buy the IRL straight up, and send the insult back in their direction.
Insomniac
04-19-05, 03:10 PM
Please notice that what Mario has been spouting really benefits his Whiner Son's interests. Poppi may love openwheel, but he loves his son's and grandson's future bankroll even more.
Which is crazy. To this day, I can't believe Mikey chasing the Yen almost got Mario killed.
I thought I heard somewhere, maybe the Mario interview on WT, that if nothing else, having a common engine formula would at the very least be a foundation if things were to change down the road between the two series. That once the ink is dried on new contracts to engine manufacturers, the direction of the 2 becomes more complicated to bring together if the equipment is different. Interested outsiders and those with half a brain see this as a window of opportunity that will be shut once the earl chooses it's engine spec the first of June.
RacinM3
04-19-05, 04:41 PM
I said it in the other thread.....those who control horsepower will control the end game.
Since Chevy is gone and Toyota and Honda are apparently out the door, I wonder if there's a chance that Cosworth would provide turbo engines to both series in 2007.
This would be the ultimate mistake. Shades of 1996 with greedy CART owners selling off old chassis to upstart IRL teams, glad they had the opportunity to unload the normally unsaleable. Look at where their one-time windfall actually helped get the sport today. :shakehead
I fear that GF and KK might allow themselves to be distracted by this rubbish when they should be focusing on the series. Robin’s editorial of the Champ Car web site suggests they are so distracted.
The simple truth is that Gomerville is the world center of medieval thinking, and Boy George is king. He is not going to give up is fiefdom for the sake of the sport. Let the IRL die, then pursue “reunification”.
Spicoli
04-19-05, 05:33 PM
I fear that GF and KK might allow themselves to be distracted by this rubbish when they should be focusing on the series. Robin’s editorial of the Champ Car web site suggests they are so distracted.
The simple truth is that Gomerville is the world center of medieval thinking, and Boy George is king. He is not going to give up is fiefdom for the sake of the sport. Let the IRL die, then pursue “reunification”.
First, not everyone in Indy think FTG is king. Not by a longshot. More than anything, nobody even thinks about him or the Fie-Hunderd. He's made himself and the race irrelevant to most everyone.
Now the above scenario certainly applies to 16th & Jonestown.
Andrew Longman
04-20-05, 08:57 AM
I thought I heard somewhere, maybe the Mario interview on WT, that if nothing else, having a common engine formula would at the very least be a foundation if things were to change down the road between the two series. That once the ink is dried on new contracts to engine manufacturers, the direction of the 2 becomes more complicated to bring together if the equipment is different. Interested outsiders and those with half a brain see this as a window of opportunity that will be shut once the earl chooses it's engine spec the first of June.
So long as the IRL is funded by engine manufacturers they will understandably follow the wishes concerning the spec, etc. of their best benefactor. So long as CCWS has Cosworth they will do whatever is actually best for the series.
If TG follows form, he will copy CCWS and offer exclusive badging to Honda or perhaps Chevy. He might even buy engines from Ilmore and lease them to the teams a la CART. Either way C or H would likely fund teams at a much lower level. That will cause him other problems, but also lower his costs. But no, nothing there that will make him play nice with CCWS.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2024 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.