KK and TG Meet: TG is Still Dumb as Dirt

[SurfaceUnits]

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/16457/

Kevin Kalkhoven, who co-owns Champ Car with Gerald Forsythe, had a face-to-face with the Indianapolis Motor Speedway president last week following a similiar sit down with TG and Champ Car president Dick Eidswick a few days before.

But the common thread through all of these meetings, ideas and proposals seems to be that the Indy Racing League founder isn't interested in doing anything with anybody who doesn't see him as King George.

[dando]

But the common thread through all of these meetings, ideas and proposals seems to be that the Indy Racing League founder isn't interested in doing anything with anybody who doesn't see him as King George.
The odd part is that I think everyone other than the boot lickers see him as 'king George. :gomer:


Bobby Rahal, Derrick Walker and Barry Green spent the summer of 1999 talking unification with George, but it turned out to be a waste of oxygen.

Wasn't France supposedly involved with these talks?



So, when Tony says things like: "Cars and engines are the easy part. It's the philosophical issues," it's hard for most of us to keep a straight face since his philosophy changes like the fry cooks at McDonald's.

Bingo! As I pointed out in the thread on the initial talks w/Eidswick.

My contempt for this bastid grows and grows. :flame:

-Kevin

[dando]

The key question is what has Tony Hulman's grandson done to earn anybody's faith in his leadership? The answer would be nothing. His original IRL is a failed business model, from the millions he's thrown away on marketing to propping up teams and drivers who are no longer involved to paying most of the purses. The litany of yearly press releases extolling the IRL's growth are as laughable as the name of Tony's team -- Vision Racing.

The IRL's direction shifts like Penske's eyes and even the most loyal lemming would have to admit George needs some professional guidance.

That's why sharp businessmen like Kalkhoven and Forsythe aren't about to turn their series over to him and that's why, now more than ever, George needs some straight talk from his lieutenants -- not the usual lip service that everything is great.

Brian Barnhart, the IRL's president and COO, gave the company line that equipment has not kept these two groups apart for a decade and common engines and cars won't do anything to heal the real problem. George questioned what good would those common denominators do for his league?

Too much good stuff in this piece. Kudos, RM. :thumbup:

FTG! :flame:

EDIT: Another gem from the extra bits near the end of the article:


In his effort to act outraged by talk of common rules or unity, Barnhart complained to The Indianapolis Star about the timing. "It comes before the start of May, it happens every year, How can it be a coincidence?," he said. For the record, last year Roger Penske (an IRL competitor) floated the unification banner in the New York Times on race weekend. Maybe Brian forgot what side RP was on.

:rofl:

-Kevin

[Spicoli]

FTG WITH A RUSTY PITCHFORK.

[RusH]

Don`t bash dirt, it serves a purpose, or we`d be floating in space

[Railbird]

http://www.vintagemodifieds.com/open_wheelers/tommy_hinn_1.jpg

Tommy liked dirt

[nrc]

What Miller fails to explain is why they even bothered to meet. The week before George said that nothing he was hearing excited him and Forsythe said that they weren't interested in selling to George.

[Gary]

What Miller fails to explain is why they even bothered to meet. The week before George said that nothing he was hearing excited him and Forsythe said that they weren't interested in selling to George.

TG has run out of 'visions'... and engines. He HAS to make a decision in the next few weeks about the next engine specs.

KK has an engine company, two of whose engines should be of interest to TG... either one of which might bail out the Indy race. KK went to the meeting to tell TG what the real cost of those engines would be.

The Cosworth purchase last fall seemed rather strange at the time, but like any good chess players, JF & KK were thinking MANY moves ahead. I can picture KK's last words as he left this meeting in NY...

"Checkmate!"

[FanofMario]

One Rm's best efforts in a while! :thumbup:

It does appear that the Cosworth purchase was priceless!!! FTG!

[Mike Kellner]

"TG has run out of 'visions'... and engines. He HAS to make a decision in the next few weeks about the next engine specs."

That makes more sense than any reunification talks. Tony needs engines, Cosworth sells engines.

I don't follow Formula Tony, does someone run a Cosworth now? I remember that they made a CrapWagon motor at one point. Perhaps they can badge that as The Claber Girl Indy V8, or even sell custom valve covers to each of their big sponsors.... Your ad goes here cheap Indy V8, TBA Indy V8, Fred & Bob's Gas n Bait Indy V8, and so forth.

mk

[Turn7]

Maybe they can find a engine that they can put up front and saw off them fruittycupper wings.

Oh glory day of yesteryear, that could be the next forward looking vision. 1963 w00t!

[Mike Kellner]

They already have the engine, and don't know it. Take one head off the Olds Indy V8, and put it on a long stroke 4 cylinder block. Then they make the 63 Watson Roadster the spec chassis, and return to real racing tires, tall & narrow, with knock off hubs. :gomer:

mk

[Newtpal]

Can we bring back the riding mechanic too? Those were the good ole' days. :gomer:

[Jervis Tetch 1]

Can we bring back the riding mechanic too? Those were the good ole' days. :gomer:And while we're at it, let's get rid of the mirrors too. :gomer: :gomer:

[Mike Kellner]

Mirrors are part of the true tradition. Ray Harroun had them on the Marmon Wasp. They were the original "Unfair Advantage", back when innovation was part of the show. Perhaps we could have people choose between a riding mechanic or mirrors.

Banning radios is another way to bring back the excitement of the past.

mk

[Turn7]

Get ride of that idiotic pit wall as well.

[DagoFast]

Marion county on pins and needles; toeknee has to choose, corn or rice.

If the uber gomers dreams come true, look for 33 silver crown cars, burnin indyanner corn.

[Mike Kellner]

If the pit wall is history, then pit speed limits, and fireproof clothing should go as well. Bring back manly pit stops, where death by fire and running over mechanics added to the show.

There was a reason the old guys were called heroes. :gomer:

mk

[Mike Kellner]

Didn't they switch to corn squeezins this season?

mk

[Spicoli]

Kellner - LMFAO.


This is hilarious. :thumbup: "get rid of that pit wall too!"

[Mike Kellner]

You just don't understand what Indy means.

Baaack homa gan,
inindiaaaanaa....

:gomer:

[trauma1]

let them smoke in the pits. and put the fuel cell back under thier seats :rofl:

[JLMannin]

The people who have posted on this thread know more about the history of the Indy 500 than all of Trackforum

[Mike Kellner]

Humor only works when it is rooted in reality. :laugh:

»Ò

[Mike Kellner]

let them smoke in the pits. and put the fuel cell back under thier seats

This is all well and good, but, let's not get too extreme. Allowing women into the infield was a good idea. However, I would mandate capris, shorty tops, the little pink scarf, and beehive hairdoos. I wouldn't want things to get too modern.

mk

[TKGAngel]

It would also be a great promotional tool for both sides. IRL vs. Champ Car on the same track would be a storyline from the start of May until the checkered flag.

I see Robin's point here, but didn't this already happen in 2002 or thereabouts? And didn't Champ Car come out on top, with the victor (the correct one) on their side?


Want a ticket for this year's Indy 500? There are plenty at Brickyard.com, including 118 together in South Vista, 116 together in Grandstand H, 100 together in North Vista and 92 together in Tower Terrace. And EBay has hundreds of good seats available also.

So does this mean the fans will have to be photoshopped in, so that the attendance can be marketed as the most ever?

[B Real]

let them smoke in the pits. and put the fuel cell back under thier seats :rofl:

Fuel cells are for wimps. I assume you really meant "put the steel can under their seats".

These modern, full-face helmets are crap too. Let's go back to a leather helmet with goggles.

[Newtpal]

Real racers don't wear seatbelts.

[Spicoli]

Smoking in the pits.

[oddlycalm]

TG has run out of 'visions'... and engines. He HAS to make a decision in the next few weeks about the next engine specs.

KK has an engine company, two of whose engines should be of interest to TG... either one of which might bail out the Indy race. KK went to the meeting to tell TG what the real cost of those engines would be.

The Cosworth purchase last fall seemed rather strange at the time, but like any good chess players, JF & KK were thinking MANY moves ahead. I can picture KK's last words as he left this meeting in NY...

"Checkmate!" Good post Gary, right on target. My guess is that the price for the Cosworths has become quite steep indeed. ;)

oc

[Racing Truth]

What Miller fails to explain is why they even bothered to meet. The week before George said that nothing he was hearing excited him and Forsythe said that they weren't interested in selling to George.

Yes, I think a word of caution is needed here. IFFFFF they would be trying to hammer something out, I'm not sure they would want the press to know yet. The fact the meeting occured suggests something else.

[Rocketdoc]

Humor only works when it is rooted in reality. :laugh:

»Ò

Or so bazaar that it only can be taken serious by small rodents that have a habit of following the arse in front of them.

[Rocketdoc]

Fuel cells are for wimps. I assume you really meant "put the steel can under their seats".

These modern, full-face helmets are crap too. Let's go back to a leather helmet with goggles.

Goggles, Smoggles, let them just squint. Betcha AJ did....

[Steve99]

I don't follow Formula Tony, does someone run a Cosworth now? I remember that they made a CrapWagon motor at one point. Perhaps they can badge that as The Claber Girl Indy V8, or even sell custom valve covers to each of their big sponsors.... Your ad goes here cheap Indy V8, TBA Indy V8, Fred & Bob's Gas n Bait Indy V8, and so forth.

I believe it is the Chevy that is made by Cosworth. I wonder if it will run on 100% ethanol?

[Andrew Longman]

Above RM usual standards

Of course the issue actually isn't equipment and engines. There is nothing to stop TG from going to Judd or whomever and buying engines that he leases to teams, same as CCWS.

The problem is manufacturer monies. Without it RP, CG and AGR go elsewhere, maybe even CCWS if they can earn a dime more there.

I think TG must not be so stupid to realize that with a common equipment platform those guys will simply cherry pick the I500 and run the much more fun, well attended and sponsor-friendly CCWS events.

That will leave TG with a series of wanker teams racing in front of empty stands and who struggle to make their own marquee race.

Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't, but TG is screwed whether he comes to a common format with CCWS or not. My guess is that he sees absolutly nothing to lose by waiting this out to the bitter end in hopes that CCWS somehow fails before he does.

[coolhand]

Getting rid of the pit lane speed limit would be awesome, but i doubt the EARL could handle special ed and Shceker commiting mass murder. :gomer: :saywhat:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Bring back manly pit stops, where death by fire and running over mechanics added to the show.

I believe the Hemelgarn team is already back.

[stroker]

let them smoke in the pits. and put the fuel cell back under thier seats

This is all well and good, but, let's not get too extreme. Allowing women into the infield was a good idea. However, I would mandate capris, shorty tops, the little pink scarf, and beehive hairdoos. I wouldn't want things to get too modern.

mk

Don't forget the "Jackie O" sunglasses...

[James Garner] "Why do women do that? It looks stupid..."

[dando]

I see Robin's point here, but didn't this already happen in 2002 or thereabouts? And didn't Champ Car come out on top, with the victor (the correct one) on their side?

It happened three years running from '00-'02, but it was only for the privileged few teams (FCG, FRP, FBR, FTKG) that had the necessary sponsor support to buy additional equipment to run iNdy. Keep in mind that N/H stayed away until this year. :(

If both series ran with the same specs, it would be an open playing field for all teams. However, there is no way in hell that FTG is going to allow Coyne to bump AJ IV and ViSioN Racing out of the 500...and that's a damn fact.

-Kevin

[FRANKY]

It happened three years running from '00-'02, but it was only for the privileged few teams (FCG, FRP, FBR, FTKG) that had the necessary sponsor support to buy additional equipment to run iNdy. Keep in mind that N/H stayed away until this year. :(

If both series ran with the same specs, it would be an open playing field for all teams. However, there is no way in hell that FTG is going to allow Coyne to bump AJ IV and ViSioN Racing out of the 500...and that's a damn fact.

-Kevin

Coyne?

The only bumping they do is into each other. :laugh:

Plus I don't think losing a few loyal but wanker teams is really big on their list.

[dando]

Coyne?

The only bumping they do is into each other. :laugh:

Plus I don't think losing a few loyal but wanker teams is really big on their list.
You wouldn't take Oreo over IV or Special Ed? My point is that's about what is left of the EARL after FRP and FCG are gone w/o mfg $$$. How would it look if FTG's own team actually got bumped from the 5hunnert? :gomer:

-Kevin

[FCYTravis]

Pit walls are for sissies, too.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Pit walls are for sissies, too.

Yeah, I believe T7 established that around 26 posts ago. ;)

[FCYTravis]

Yeah well, that's what I get for not reading the first page of the thread and just coming in to drop a bomb :laugh:

[coolhand]

Pit walls are for sissies, too.

you mean nacy boys. The Cart street racing loosers are the ones who put up that sissy wall. take it down. :gomer:

[Gary]

Good post Gary, right on target. My guess is that the price for the Cosworths has become quite steep indeed. ;)

ocSteep price, as in "you'll get engines to keep your I-500 race from going completely down the tubes when you shut down the IRL, go back to being a track owner, and let ChampCar run American Open Wheel Racing. Checkmate"

Oh, I almost forgot... put the flagman back down on the track, and if it's TG, in the MIDDLE of the track!

[NismoZ]

Nacy boys? Hell, now IM lost!...and bring back a REAL carb day, too! (or did I miss that 27 posts ago?)

[DaveL]

I believe the Hemelgarn team is already back.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :thumbup:

[L1P1]

So, Eidswick has a meeting with TG that comes to an impasse. Then Kalkhoven decides to do one too? Okay, maybe they have a private bet on how much time they can stand with TG - something along the lines of Fear Factor.

But I think there's sumfin' goin' on here.

[NismoZ]

ditto

[anait]

So, Eidswick has a meeting with TG that comes to an impasse. Then Kalkhoven decides to do one too? Okay, maybe they have a private bet on how much time they can stand with TG - something along the lines of Fear Factor.

It's the new entrance requirement for CCIC. Minimum 15 minute face-to-face, and you must remain in complete control of your emotions. No language, no gestures...and whoever hears the word 'vision' used the most times gets free beer last race of the season.

[G.]

It's the new entrance requirement for CCIC. Minimum 15 minute face-to-face, and you must remain in complete control of your emotions. No language, no gestures...and whoever hears the word 'vision' used the most times gets free beer last race of the season.
I'm out.

[rabbit]

It's the new entrance requirement for CCIC. Minimum 15 minute face-to-face, and you must remain in complete control of your emotions. No language, no gestures...and whoever hears the word 'vision' used the most times gets free beer last race of the season.
Is physical violence considered a "gesture?"

'Cause if not, I'm in. :thumbup:

[Insomniac]

It happened three years running from '00-'02, but it was only for the privileged few teams (FCG, FRP, FBR, FTKG) that had the necessary sponsor support to buy additional equipment to run iNdy. Keep in mind that N/H stayed away until this year. :(-Kevin

N/H was there last year.

[Insomniac]

Above RM usual standards

Of course the issue actually isn't equipment and engines. There is nothing to stop TG from going to Judd or whomever and buying engines that he leases to teams, same as CCWS.

The problem is manufacturer monies. Without it RP, CG and AGR go elsewhere, maybe even CCWS if they can earn a dime more there.

I think TG must not be so stupid to realize that with a common equipment platform those guys will simply cherry pick the I500 and run the much more fun, well attended and sponsor-friendly CCWS events.

That will leave TG with a series of wanker teams racing in front of empty stands and who struggle to make their own marquee race.

Maybe he gets it, maybe he doesn't, but TG is screwed whether he comes to a common format with CCWS or not. My guess is that he sees absolutly nothing to lose by waiting this out to the bitter end in hopes that CCWS somehow fails before he does.

This is exactly how I saw it. If I was TG, there is no way I'd go to a common format (given TG's need to run it all). That would mean everyone could choose which series to run and go to the Indy 500. I wonder where they will choose to race. Then TG would just throw another fit and kick everyone out starting the whole thing over again.

[Racing Truth]

So, Eidswick has a meeting with TG that comes to an impasse. Then Kalkhoven decides to do one too? Okay, maybe they have a private bet on how much time they can stand with TG - something along the lines of Fear Factor.

But I think there's sumfin' goin' on here.

We cannot know for sure, of course, but given what Robin claims happened with the Eidswick meeting, the KK meeting makes no sense if nothing happened, or will happen .

What, KK had nothing better to do? Also, note the lack of on the record comments from either group, outside of Miller's characterizations of what was said.

[dando]

N/H was there last year.
Of course. Repressed memories. But if I dint see it, did it really happen? ;)

-Kevin

[RacinM3]

Well, if you're going to bring back skinny tires, then fat drivers won't be far behind!

AJ says "thank you".

[FTG]

This is exactly how I saw it. If I was TG, there is no way I'd go to a common format (given TG's need to run it all). That would mean everyone could choose which series to run and go to the Indy 500. I wonder where they will choose to race. Then TG would just throw another fit and kick everyone out starting the whole thing over again.

The already in production Cosworth turbo would be much cheaper than any other decent racing engine and Tony needs to get costs down. Tony is the only other concievable purchaser for KKs engines. There's a mutually beneficial deal to be made. Of course, Tony seems to avoid mutually beneficial deals the way Jerry Falwell avoids drag queens.

[Racing Truth]

The already in production Cosworth turbo would be much cheaper than any other decent racing engine and Tony needs to get costs down. Tony is the only other concievable purchaser for KKs engines. There's a mutually beneficial deal to be made. Of course, Tony seems to avoid mutually beneficial deals the way Jerry Falwell avoids drag queens.

:rofl: :laugh:

[L1P1]

The already in production Cosworth turbo would be much cheaper than any other decent racing engine and Tony needs to get costs down. Tony is the only other concievable purchaser for KKs engines. There's a mutually beneficial deal to be made. Of course, Tony seems to avoid mutually beneficial deals the way Jerry Falwell avoids drag queens.

:D But to me, this could be a cool resolution. K/F give (free or at a reasonable rate) the IRL field the Cosworth engines and Champ Car does something (different but in the same ballpark) with other manufacturers. The idea is that Kalkhoven et. al. would in a sense be guarateeing that the original vision would survive - that spridget drivers would have a viable path to Indy.

Perhaps the previous year's top six in the IRL would get one-off Ford Cosworth Indy (Champ Car spec) engines for that race. Ford (or any other willing taker) would subsidize the one-off effort only and wouldn't have to commit to an entire season.

The anticipation of the debut of that engine would add something back to Indy - similar to the crop of Buicks that used to show up (but with better hopes).

[Insomniac]

Of course. Repressed memories. But if I dint see it, did it really happen? ;)

-Kevin

Who knows. Things that you see happen (PT winning the I500) apparently didn't happen. So why not. :)

[Insomniac]

The already in production Cosworth turbo would be much cheaper than any other decent racing engine and Tony needs to get costs down. Tony is the only other concievable purchaser for KKs engines. There's a mutually beneficial deal to be made. Of course, Tony seems to avoid mutually beneficial deals the way Jerry Falwell avoids drag queens.

If this was just about making money, getting together would be a no brainer. Unfortunately, TG has all the money he needs and just wants to be King. What happened to the real capitalists who never had enough? :)

[Andrew Longman]

If TG wasn't so determined (or inept) to impose a crap spec for crapwagons, I'd suggest waiting for whatever spec he picks then copying.

That way, every team could pick the series that makes the most sense (which from a schedule, event, sponsor perspective is CCWS) then cherry pick the 500 with the same equipment.

[Insomniac]

If TG wasn't so determined (or inept) to impose a crap spec for crapwagons, I'd suggest waiting for whatever spec he picks then copying.

That way, every team could pick the series that makes the most sense (which from a schedule, event, sponsor perspective is CCWS) then cherry pick the 500 with the same equipment.

Potential legal issues aside, TG would probably want some exclusivity (he locked Lola out last time) and if all else failed, say hello to 25/8 (or 33/0) again.

[L1P1]

Well, really more like 25/0. ;)

[pkvracing12]

I believe in the 2 ow series merging but if tony george has a part in it besides running indy motor speedway i WONT watch the junk it will be normally assporated engines with husky chassis and a lot of wrecking Tony George the father of destroying open wheel racing in america good job jerko#f

[B3RACER1a]

Drunk post?

[mueber]

It is impossible for me to understand why "we," waste our time talking to or about Boy George. I include Champ Car's management in that "we."

[pchall]

If TG wasn't so determined (or inept) to impose a crap spec for crapwagons, I'd suggest waiting for whatever spec he picks then copying.


Last time CART wanted to share specs on chassis and engines, Tony George was ready to claim "copyright/patent infringement" on the whole crapwagon
Vision™ scheme and go to court. He's just as stupid now.