BAR=cheaters

[rabbit]

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/formulaone/16475/


The FIA’s detailed post-race check on Jenson Button’s BAR in Imola was not a random one, we can reveal.

The organization has apparently harbored suspicions about BAR possibly using fuel as ballast and running underweight at points in races, but so far this year there had been no reason to check the cars.

[Methanolandbrats]

They must be practicing for NASCAR.

[jonovision_man]

"This team is owned by two blue-chip international corporations with huge integrity," he told Reuters on Tuesday. "Does anyone really think that we would deliberately do anything against the rules?

"We've hidden nothing."

:laugh:

jono

[cart7]

Cheating and still only a 3rd place? :laugh:

[Jervis Tetch 1]

So does Button lose his points? It didn't say. One would think he would.

[Insomniac]

So does Button lose his points? It didn't say. One would think he would.

The race stewards said it was okay. He kept his points, for now. The FIA has appealed the stewards' decision and it will go before the FIA's International Court of Appeals on May 4.

[Sean O'Gorman]

They should give him a NASCAR-style penalty and allow him to keep the third place, but dock him 25 points. :laugh:

[jonovision_man]

Autosport has a great write-up about this.

Timeline of events seems to be:
- Car weighs in fine (over 600kg)
- Fuel drained, car weighs in fine (still over 600kg)
- BAR asked if there is any more fuel on-board, they say "no"
- Bauer (FIA) pokes around, finds an extra compartment with fuel still in it! Compartment is legal according to rules.
- Extra compartment drained, car now underweight by 5.4kg.
- Stewards let BAR off the hook, presumably since there's no proof they were under the limit at any point
- FIA appeals

The rules state the car must be at least 600kg at all points during the race. They know it was at least 600kg at the end - they weighed it. So the only question is how low the tank got throughout the race.

Apparantly there was an FIA clarification that the cars must be 600kg dry, but that was before BAR enterred, and the rule book doesn't say that...

Autosport goes on to analyze the benefits of cheating. Very significant, as it turns out... 3kg is 1/10th of a second per lap, over 14s by the end of the race. And the benefit of running second qualifying lighter.

Wonderful article. :)

jono

[Steve99]

The articles I see keep saying that fuel can't be used as ballast. Is that actually in the rules?

[jonovision_man]

The articles I see keep saying that fuel can't be used as ballast. Is that actually in the rules?

That's the funny thing, it isn't.

1.9 Weight :
Is the weight of the car with the driver, wearing his complete racing apparel, at all times during the event.

...

4.1 Minimum weight
The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during the qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other times during the Event.

...

4.3 Adding during the race :
With the exception of fuel and compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.


There's some details on the weighing process too... but nowhere does it say the car can be weighed without fuel.

But... :) If they can prove it was under 600kg at any point during the race, that's an infraction. The FIA apparantly keeps close tabs on fuel, so they know how much went in at various points. If it was under, they can probably figure that out with a reasonable degree of certainty. Thus the appeal.

Fascinating stuff.

jono

[Ferdman]

It's all Gil deFerran's fault. He came in and tried to employ some of that Penske "unfair advantage" tactics and got busted. ;) :D :p

Disclaimer: If you don't get the smilies, I'm just kidding!

[calculus_entropy]

Where's Tinman to tell us Honda has always been cheaters and Toyota has always been holy.



Seriously though, I would suspect BAR is not the first team to attempt to exploit this rule. JMO, of course.

[jonovision_man]

Where's Tinman to tell us Honda has always been cheaters and Toyota has always been holy.



Seriously though, I would suspect BAR is not the first team to attempt to exploit this rule. JMO, of course.

Someone on another board say that Tyrell got caught too... I haven't been able to track down any info. Since BAR is effectively Tyrell, could be an interesting link there. :)

jono

[jonovision_man]

Someone on another board say that Tyrell got caught too... I haven't been able to track down any info. Since BAR is effectively Tyrell, could be an interesting link there. :)

jono

If someone has more information on this, please post it... haven't been able to track it down on the web. Found a site that said that Tyrell had put lead in their gas tank... but not sure if that's right.

jono

[Jervis Tetch 1]

If someone has more information on this, please post it... haven't been able to track it down on the web. Found a site that said that Tyrell had put lead in their gas tank... but not sure if that's right.

jono
That would be 1984. The official Grand Prix guide said that all positions and points from the Tyrrell team and drivers would not count in the standings. That's why you don't see a third place finish by Stefan Bellof.

[Insomniac]

4.3 Adding during the race :
With the exception of fuel and compressed gases, no substance may be added to the car during the race. If it becomes necessary to replace any part of the car during the race, the new part must not weigh any more than the original part.

So it can weigh less? ;)

[Dirty Sanchez]

So it can weigh less? ;)No.


4.1 Minimum weight
The weight of the car must not be less than 605 kg during the qualifying practice session and no less than 600 kg at all other times during the Event.

[jonovision_man]

CCWS gets one right. :) Just checking their rulebook:


9.2.4. Weight. Race cars will be weighed in the condition in which they leave the racing surface. Fuel will be removed. Coolant and lubricants will not be
removed.

No grey area there, remove fuel, weigh it.

jono

[Insomniac]

How are broken off parts officially handled? That will obviously lower the weight since most teams are right on the line. Is it assumed that the broken off parts hurt the car so no advantage was gained? Do they handle it on a case by base basis. Maybe look at lap times after the car got lighter?

[jonovision_man]

How are broken off parts officially handled? That will obviously lower the weight since most teams are right on the line. Is it assumed that the broken off parts hurt the car so no advantage was gained? Do they handle it on a case by base basis. Maybe look at lap times after the car got lighter?

Edit - I read it wrong. :)

According to the rules any replacement parts can't be heavier than the part that broke off... how do they determine that?

But if they don't replace it, I'm not sure exactly how it would be handled. Like if a piece of the undertray went missing.

jono

[jonovision_man]

The FIA comes out swinging...

http://www.autosport-atlas.com/news.aspx?id=43869&s=5 (subscription)


"The FIA asks the Court to exclude the Lucky Strike BAR Honda team from the 2005 Formula One World Championship and to fine the team at least one million Euros"

Wow. I hope they just mean from the points, ie. they could still participate at the races! It wouldn't be good for the sport to lose two competitive cars like that, especially a guy with star power like Button.

jono

[Insomniac]

The FIA comes out swinging...

http://www.autosport-atlas.com/news.aspx?id=43869&s=5 (subscription)



Wow. I hope they just mean from the points, ie. they could still participate at the races! It wouldn't be good for the sport to lose two competitive cars like that, especially a guy with star power like Button.

jono

Why would they race if they couldn't get points? Just to get on the podium to say "we got on the podium"?

[jonovision_man]

Why would they race if they couldn't get points? Just to get on the podium to say "we got on the podium"?

Minardi races for even less than that! :)

Honda and BAT are in it for the sponsorship exposure, so they'd still get much of the benefit even if they weren't racing for the points.

jono

[Gnam]

If they are excluded from the points, they should cheat their way to the top step every race. What's the FIA gonna do ban take away next year's points?

Fresh tires every pit stop.
Fresh engine for every race.
Unlimited testing.
Front and rear wings way, way out of spec.

...Or become the spoiler in every race. A little punt here a little block there. Blue flag? What blue flag?

[jonovision_man]

Bernie weighs in:

"I suppose if they are not excluded from the Championship, you could say that the constructor cannot score points in the Championship, and maybe exclude any points the driver has now, and all the other ones [from here on] would count."

That's a reasonable solution, close to what I suggested but allows the drivers points.

jono

[cameraman]

Coverage of the hearing. GrandPrix,com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14734.html)

Oil and water count toward the car's weight. Should 9 kilos of fuel in the pump system also count? BAR states that the car will stop with 9 kilos of fuel still in it.

[jonovision_man]

Coverage of the hearing. GrandPrix,com (http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns14734.html)

Oil and water count toward the car's weight. Should 9 kilos of fuel in the pump system also count? BAR states that the car will stop with 9 kilos of fuel still in it.

Easy enough to test.

Head to the BAR facilities, run the engine until it sputters, weigh the remaining fuel. If it's over the 5.4kg, they get off, if not they're done.

jono

[Hard Driver]

Seems like the rule is that the car can not weigh less than 600 KG during the race. Sounds like they complied and that if they want to clarify the rules as dry without any fuel, they should say so.

[cameraman]

And if all cars have some form of collector tank, why was the BAR car the only one to have ever been vacuumed dry before weighing?

[oddlycalm]

Wow. I hope they just mean from the points, ie. they could still participate at the races! It wouldn't be good for the sport to lose two competitive cars like that, especially a guy with star power like Button. No, the FIA is asking that they be excluded, as in not on the grid. I bet the phone lines between Paris and Nagoya are glowing about the same color as an F1 exhaust about now. A $200 million investment by Honda being flushed by some French bureaucrats. :eek: You think they were pissy over the popoff valve business in CART.... :laugh:

No doubt there are heavy politics behind closed doors. Bernie does not want an 18 car grid.

oc

[eiregosod]

The FIa is laying down the law. not to mention the upcoming split in f1, pissing off a team who will race the gwpc isnt going to hurt them.

I reckon, BAR wont be banned, though may be a points & monetary penalty ll be the outcome

[jonovision_man]

Autosport is reporting it's a 2-race ban, plus they'll be excluded from the Imola results...

jono

[Insomniac]

Damn, this is all getting crazy.

[Mark521]

Does this mean somebody (two teams) needs to run 3 cars?

[RusH]

Must have just happened, can`t get into pitpass, server too slow.
http://www.motorsport.com/ has only a small article on it.
:eek:

edit:
http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=24316

[jonovision_man]

Does this mean somebody (two teams) needs to run 3 cars?

Bernie said even if it was a season-long exclusion they'd stick with 18.

2 races seems like a pretty light punishment for cheating. :shakehead I'm anxious to hear more analysis and info about the judgement.

jono

[jonovision_man]

Ahh. From the verdict:


WHEREAS it is not possible for the Court to find, on the basis of the evidence that it was provided with, that Lucky Strike BAR Honda deliberately committed fraud, their actions at the time of the emptying procedure of the vehicle after the event, and the fact that they did not use their right in accordance with Article 2.4, to address a request for clarification on the rules to the Technical Formula One Department of the FIA, show at the least a highly regrettable negligence and lack of transparency,

So they weren't really found guilty of the worst allegations...

jono

[The Doctor]

So I take it this means Wurz is now third for Imola, followed by Villenueve (!!!) and the rest (including putting Liuzzi in the points in his first race)? Or do the drivers keep their positions but have their and the team's points taken away?

[TrueBrit]

Everyone gets elevated... Wurz to third Jacques Villeneuve to fourth...etc etc etc...

Methinks BAR dodged a bullet with this one......

[oddlycalm]

Methinks BAR dodged a bullet with this one...... Should be interesting to see if they follow through on seeking an injunction and taking the matter to civil court, or if they quietly let it go.

oc

[Gnam]

Does this mean Jensen will be leaving Honda soon?

[cameraman]

BAR is going to war...
"B.A.R Honda is appalled at the decision of the FIA International Court of Appeal and asserts that the judgement is contrary to all of the evidence heard yesterday. The team proved that it complied with the current regulations and the FIA now acknowledges that the regulations are unclear.

"We repeat that at no time did B.A.R Honda run underweight at the San Marino Grand Prix and this was also unchallenged by the FIA.

"While the International Court of Appeal rejected the FIA's original accusations of fraud and deception, B.A.R Honda says that this penalty is wholly and grossly disproportionate.

"The team is advised by its legal counsel that the judgement is plainly wrong based on the evidence presented and it is currently examining its options."

[Dirty Sanchez]

they got off light. they should cut their losses... :thumdown:


or just blame david richards :laugh:

[Methanolandbrats]

BAR must have hired Japan's version of Junior Johnson to build the fuel tank. :D

[cameraman]

Don't you think it is rather odd that Aero Tec Laboratories, the maker of F1 fuel cells, is suddenly swamped with orders from a number of F1 teams...

[Insomniac]

"BAR were asked to pump the fuel out of their car. They left 15 liters in the tank and told us it was empty,'' FIA president Max Mosley said. "Under the circumstances, we feel they have been treated rather leniently.''

That is very shady. At first I thought the penalty was off. I thought it would've been fair to disqualiy them from all previous races and let them continue on. But now, to say the car was empty when they knew it wasn't, that is crossing the line.

[ferrarigod]

Couldn't happen to a nicer manu.

Lets see, Toyota gets caught cheating from Ferrari, and Honda gets a ban for cheating.

ChampCar review anyone? Its amazing to watch these things happen and know it wasn't CART that was the problem. Not that we couldn't have figured that out anyway.

Well goodluck to the gomers and Bernie in dealing with these cheaters

[coolhand]

Sombody get AJ Foyt the schematics for that fuel cell now

[oddlycalm]

That is very shady. At first I thought the penalty was off. I thought it would've been fair to disqualiy them from all previous races and let them continue on. But now, to say the car was empty when they knew it wasn't, that is crossing the line. I'm no Honda flag waiver, but this smells like the usual FIA capricious interpretation of their own deliberately vague regulations.

While Charlie Whiting was coy about confirming that other teams use accumulator tanks for reasons of "commercial secrecy," it's widely known that any teams running high pressure fuel systems must use one to prevent the engine from being starved of fuel under certain conditions. He also indicated that the FIA tech staff were fully aware of it. So much for the "secret tank" hype.

The crux of the intent claim is a disagreement between FIA tech inspector de Groot who claims he asked for a "full drain" and the BAR fuel man/truck driver that claims de Groot only asked for a "lifted drain."

In the end, I see this as reflecting at least as poorly on the FIA regulations as it does the team. If the situation was unique the FIA could be forgiven, but it's far from it. Vague regulations partnered with arbitrary enforcement have been the norm over the years, not the exception. In my view a BAR disqualification from Imola and a clarification to the technical regs that any fuel in the accumulator is not part of the car weight would have solved the problem. Instead we have an 18 car grid for the next two races, a result worthy of the Ballestre era. :shakehead

oc

[Gnam]

motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=184047)


Fry told reporters that BAR intends to compete at Barcelona: "Our objective is to race this weekend," he stated. "We have some of the best sporting lawyers in Britain, probably the world, working on this now."

"Obviously... we need to get a judgement from a court pretty soon; probably Friday morning. I think we need to get the car into qualifying so I think that will be our final deadline."

Will they even let BAR onto the grounds?

[Dirty Sanchez]

Will they even let BAR onto the grounds?Nick Fry read his statement from their team transporter in Barcelona.

[Steve99]

motorsport.com (http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=184047)


Will they even let BAR onto the grounds?
They were already there and set up.

If they take it to civil court won't any judgement agains F1/FIA result in the same threats as in Australia (r.e. the Minardi cars).

[jonovision_man]

It's over, no civil court, they are accepting the penalty. No BAR this weekend or in Monaco.

jono

[Easy]

How long before the gomerati begin having wet dreams about BAR and its 800 employees bolting for the irl?

[Opposite Lock]

How long before the gomerati begin having wet dreams about BAR and its 800 employees bolting for the irl?

Having Gil go over there to steal BAR was a masterstroke of strategy by FTG in his ongoing quest to crush Bernie. :gomer:

[coolhand]

How long before the gomerati begin having wet dreams about BAR and its 800 employees bolting for the irl?

AGR si going to be Honda's new effort in F1 :gomer:

[extramundane]

AGR si going to be Honda's new effort in F1 :gomer:

I hear the team's going to be based out of Indy and only fly overseas for race weekends.

[cart7]

A 4 car AGR F1 effort. Wheldon, Herta, Kanaan and Dashley. All of them deserving F1 drivers who were never given an "opportunity".

Now AGR's irl team can go about the business of putting deserving American short track racers into the vacant earl seats. :thumbup:

Justice is sweet. :gomer:

[TedN]

Good video explanation of BAR fuel tank configuration by Steve Matchett on this morning's SPEED TV qualifying show. Someone has captured the video and posted it HERE (http://tinyurl.com/8rnac)

Ted

[Spicoli]

How long before the gomerati begin having wet dreams about BAR and its 800 employees bolting for the irl?

there's a thread on TF about it. no ****.

edit: its on speed. (http://insider.speedtv.com/viewtopic.php?t=78680)

[ChampCar#3]

love the idea on SPEED of BAR at Indy with Dale Jr. driving !!!

[oddlycalm]

The reaction of the gomerati is as predictable as it is silly. Classic insular thinking. World notice of the i497 these days is currently confined to a few unemployed drivers showing up and sniffing around for work. Time marches on, and the younger folks involved in the international racing community were still in school when the i500 had any international cred.

oc

[devilmaster]

http://www.tsn.ca/auto_racing/news_story.asp?id=124685


BAR-Honda have admitted they were wrong and that FIA's Court of Appeal was right.

One week after calling a two race ban "appalling" and "grossly disproportionate", the team have changed their tune and have owned up to the fact that they did not do their due diligence when it came to their fuel tank system.

"Having investigated the matter fully, including making extensive enquiries of other teams, BAR-Honda now accept that Formula One cars must always weigh more than 600kg when completely empty of fuel," read a statement released by the team Thursday.

"This applies even if the car's fuel system is such that some of the fuel in the car is unusable. Before making these enquiries it was the team's honest belief that fuel which could not be used during the race did not have to be removed before the car was weighed."

[Dirty Sanchez]

pwnt!