GM & Ford downgraded to junk

[oddlycalm]

S&P cut it's credit rating to junk status for both Ford and GM today. :( S&P said its downgrade of GM's long-term rating below investment-grade status reflects a conclusion that "management's current strategies may not be effective in dealing with the automaker's competitive disadvantages." Hard to argue that point. This comes on the heels of billionaire vulture Kirk Kerkorian moving to acquire a 9% stake in GM yesterday.

The broad implications to the economy, not to mention future of racing, of the failure or breakup of either of these companies and the domino effect on their suppliers is impossible to overstate. This is one death spiral that is as depressing as it is protracted. Good leadership was all that was needed to prevent this, but at this point that alone may not be enough to save either company. Wish there was something amusing to say about it.

oc

[B3RACER1a]

Cant say I'm surprised. Some of the new stuff is hideous from GM. I think Ford has done a slightly better job. They are both WAY off of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda...etc still.

It seems the Engineerrs at GM design something with no real direction. I'm not realy familier with the union stuff, but I think that is hurting them too. But, I dont know much about it.

[Spicoli]

Cant say I'm surprised. Some of the new stuff is hideous from GM. I think Ford has done a slightly better job. They are both WAY off of Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mazda...etc still.

It seems the Engineerrs at GM design something with no real direction. I'm not realy familier with the union stuff, but I think that is hurting them too. But, I dont know much about it.

ford owns Mazda, dumbass.

[trish]

Would this be a good time to buy Ford stock?

[oddlycalm]

Cant say I'm surprised. Some of the new stuff is hideous from GM. I think Ford has done a slightly better job. That's pretty much what I hear from most people, and I agree. The new Mustang was an instant classic, and Ford has had decent success with it's Focus line unlike GM where there is yet to be a small car success after 35yrs of trying. The biggest problem now is that both companies rely on large SUV's and trucks for their profits, and sales of both are way off due to fuel costs, and unlike past periods when fuel prices spiked, there are few indications they will significantly receed this time around.

oc

[coolhand]

Its the Union Labor that is killing the companies

[Turn7]

It isn't the union labor, it is the dumbasses in charge that signed such outrageous contracts with those unions.

GM management is to blame for that, not the laborers.

[coolhand]

It isn't the union labor, it is the dumbasses in charge that signed such outrageous contracts with those unions.

GM management is to blame for that, not the laborers.

Sounds like the union asked for too much

[Turn7]

:rolleyes:

Dude, I am not a union guy but, if the managment is so stupid that they let a bunch of uneducated blue collar no nothings get the better of them at the negotiating table, can you honestly tell me that those idiots on the top floor need to be there?

Get a clue, labor will always ask for pie in the sky, it is up to the know-it-all college boys to keep those requests in line with the p&l.

[coolhand]

:rolleyes:

Dude, I am not a union guy but, if the managment is so stupid that they let a bunch of uneducated blue collar no nothings get the better of them at the negotiating table, can you honestly tell me that those idiots on the top floor need to be there?

Get a clue, labor will always ask for pie in the sky, it is up to the know-it-all college boys to keep those requests in line with the p&l.

yeah, so the labour unions asked for too much, and if GM did not give it to them they would strike. So GM in its fragil state had to agree because it could not handle a strike

[Methanolandbrats]

Is this a good time to buy Ford stock. No.

GM's troubles are due to losing market share, nobody saw that coming when the contracts were negotiated.

[Spicoli]

:rolleyes:

Dude, I am not a union guy but, if the managment is so stupid that they let a bunch of uneducated blue collar no nothings get the better of them at the negotiating table, can you honestly tell me that those idiots on the top floor need to be there?

Get a clue, labor will always ask for pie in the sky, it is up to the know-it-all college boys to keep those requests in line with the p&l.

What's a "no nothing"?

:p

busted.

[Spicoli]

look at the cars people are buying.

GM has to give away about 99% of their line.

Ford is doing alot better. My FX4 can run over your Audi AND your Vespa. and you dorky Mr.2 as well.

(Ank has no car?)

[Sean O'Gorman]

yeah, so the labour unions asked for too much, and if GM did not give it to them they would strike. So GM in its fragil state had to agree because it could not handle a strike

Turn7 is right, a poor labor contract is a direct reflection on management.

And Spicoli, to run over the MR2, you'd first have to catch it, or at least wait until it breaks again. :D

[lone_groover]

:thumbup: UNION :thumbup: YES :thumbup:

WHICH SIDE ARE YOU ON?

[coolhand]

Managment was in a bind, they had not enough power to battle the all powerful unions, now the unions might not have a company to work for.

[B3RACER1a]

ford owns Mazda, dumbass.

I know that. Ford doesnt design Mazda's stuff for them, which is what my point was all about. Put down the beer. :laugh: :p

[Spicoli]

Put down the beer. :laugh: :p

Where officer? :gomer:

[B3RACER1a]

:rofl:

[Ankf00]

laughed so hard when I read this this morning...

it's what you get when you're making like $100-300 on mustangs and selling other cars at discount so you can offset your mpg ratings for your 10-15K profit margin trucks to meet CAFE stds, and then go derive a boatload of your earnings from the financing

as I've said before about their engineering capabilities, Ford and GM wouldn't know what LEAN manufacturing was if it was a hooker giving it to em in the arse.. :rolleyes: wanna know why .jp carmakers make so much profit? they know how to do the design cycle right, they take care of their **** during conceptual phase the right way instead of letting questions and sloppiness linger up through production implementation, at which point fixing those mistakes costs a *****oad more and the fixes are bandaids...

[Ankf00]

look at the cars people are buying.

GM has to give away about 99% of their line.

Ford is doing alot better. My FX4 can run over your Audi AND your Vespa. and you dorky Mr.2 as well.

(Ank has no car?)

vee dub, and that's great about your FX4, i'm gonna take the 10-15K profit margin I didn't throw away on a ladder frame chunk of steel and put it in my IRA :gomer: oh ya, 400 miles costs me $25 *muah*

[Spicoli]

vee dub, and that's great about your FX4, i'm gonna take the 10-15K profit margin I didn't throw away on a ladder frame chunk of steel and put it in my IRA :gomer: oh ya, 400 miles costs me $25 *muah*

employee discount and rebate got me a sticker 41k for 29k, and I leased it for $412 a month for 3 years with 15kmiles and NO money down. Plus I made them give me free oil changes, tire rotations and a tune up if'n I wanted one. ****, they even gave me a pack of 5 free car washes. :gomer:

Tell me where Ford made money on me, beyotch?

You don't want me on your car lot. :shakehead









Like I said - hate the GAME not the Playah! :cry:

[FCYTravis]

I have a feeling that salesperson was asking his manager to throw in a case of Preparation H with his commission... :rofl:

[Ankf00]

employee discount and rebate got me a sticker 41k for 29k, and I leased it for $412 a month for 3 years with 15kmiles and NO money down. Plus I made them give me free oil changes, tire rotations and a tune up if'n I wanted one. ****, they even gave me a pack of 5 free car washes. :gomer:

Tell me where Ford made money on me, beyotch?


got all the service, washes, and free interior replacements (i dont know how they can afford this, if I stain something and they cant get it out, voila, new seats...) with the veedub, plus I'm not throwing my $ away on a lease :gomer:

that's a great deal though, think I would get 2% over invoice on the FMC's which was my motivation for getting that S40, until I realized they completely changed their pricing structure between the 2004.5 model and the 2005, at which point it jumped up 5K... and screw that I'm not paying as much for a car per month as rent :saywhat: plus 0% beats 4.5 :D

[Spicoli]

got all the service, washes, and free interior replacements (i dont know how they can afford this, if I stain something and they cant get it out, voila, new seats...) with the veedub, plus I'm not throwing my $ away on a lease :gomer:

that's a great deal though, th blah blah blah...

Dear Junior:


Throwing away money?

Depreciate your car over 3 years vs. mine and see who ends up on top. The whole "pride in ownership" is a god damn joke.

Never NEVER put cash into a depreciating "asset". A car is a ****ing expense, not an asset, and certainly not an appreciating asset.

Great, you pay off your starter car after 5 years. Now what do you have? A Paid for POS that you want to get rid of, becuase now you want something different.

The ONLY time it makes sense to buy outright is if you are going to put excessive (15k + per year) miles on the car, and expaense it for work or the like.

your 30k vehicle with no money down and financed at ZERO percent for 60 months with tax will run you $530 a month. I can LEASE the same thing for $400, and I get a brand new car after 3 years.

Duh.

No wonder you're stupid. :gomer:

[Ankf00]

it's texas, you use up 15K in 6 months dawg...

and dings are going to cost you almost a grand each, njoy :gomer:

hey, next time upgrade to a bimmer lease and move to Dallas, you'll fit right in in uptown ;)

[Spicoli]

it's texas, you use up 15K in 6 months dawg...

and dings are going to cost you almost a grand each, njoy :gomer:

hey, next time upgrade to a bimmer lease and move to Dallas, you'll fit right in in uptown ;)

So, do you finally admit you're stupid?

and wtf are "dings"? :saywhat:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Ahh, how smart I am to have bought a used car. I think in the 3 years I've owned mine it has only depreciated $2,000, but that is ok because I'm going to drive it for the next decade. :)

[Spicoli]

Ahh, how smart I am to have bought a used car. I think in the 3 years I've owned mine it has only depreciated $2,000, but that is ok because I'm going to drive it for the next decade.



yeah, that;'s the plan. :gomer: you think you got trubbles wif girls now? :saywhat:

10 year old Mr2? ****, when did they make those? 83-87? :rofl:

[Sean O'Gorman]

yeah, that;'s the plan. :gomer: you think you got trubbles wif girls now? :saywhat:

10 year old Mr2? ****, when did they make those? 83-87? :rofl:

It looks cooler than anything else being made today under 20k. Its 14 years old now anyway, and the car I drive is the least of my problems when it comes to girls. :D

[Spicoli]

It looks cooler than anything else being made today under 20k. Its 14 years old now anyway, and the car I drive is the least of my problems when it comes to girls. :D

"Sure I only got 2 inches, but its an ANGRY Irish 2 inches!"

:rofl:

[Sean O'Gorman]

Pfft, yeah right. Its so big it doesn't even return Spielberg's calls

[Jag_Warrior]

as I've said before about their engineering capabilities, Ford and GM wouldn't know what LEAN manufacturing was if it was a hooker giving it to em in the arse.. :rolleyes: wanna know why .jp carmakers make so much profit? they know how to do the design cycle right, they take care of their **** during conceptual phase the right way instead of letting questions and sloppiness linger up through production implementation, at which point fixing those mistakes costs a *****oad more and the fixes are bandaids...

*ding ding ding* We have a winner.

Count the number of initiatives that most of the major American manufacturing companies have half-@ssedly tried to implement and you'll quickly run out of fingers & toes. Here's a hint for American manufacturers: calling a push/MRP system a pull/electronic kanban is bull*****e. As with much of GM's sibling models, all you're doing is switching labels on P.O.S.

When (not if) Toyota and GM have equal market share, Toyota will make more money per vehicle (they do already - scale has nothing to do with it, in this case). The environment and culture within the Japanese (American transplant) operations is WAYYYYY different. Even among American workers, the attitudes about quality and throughput are different. And most importantly, management and their attitudes are different. Blame the UAW for asking. But blame GM (and Ford) for getting themselves into a vulnerable position to begin with. They've known medical and pension costs were going to eat them for a decade or better.

Just a few days after news broke that GM was swirling toward the drain hole, a recall was announced over a seatbelt issue. God forbid anyone should spend additional time designing the seatbelt contact points up front. Nah, just slap 'em in and if there's a problem, we'll fix 'em down the road. :gomer:

I almost bought my parents some GM stock (for the dividend) about a year ago. Being that my dad is still a rather good hand with a pistol, I'm glad I didn't. Ford? From what I've heard, they've genuinely tried to do some of the right things. But, execution... :shakehead

[Ankf00]

good to see the other engineering brain is back in town http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/smokin.gif
tired of having to listen to OGorman talk about the badassness that is his glorified gokart :gomer:

spicoli: you + uptown Dallas + proud leasee of 3 series == perfect fit :gomer:

the UAW does suck balls though, they do the manuf at my plant... now if I decided to quit work for 20 minutes every hour and dick around and not put in my 10 hours every day, i'd get canned in a heartbeat for mischarging time... now if you're in a UNION, or more specifically the UAW, you can do this all day every day, not make up the time you wasted, and NOT get fired... apparently this is the point of the UAW... to help you quit work 1/3 of your day while you smoke during times that aren't your designated "breaks" :rolleyes: ****ing di*****s. and they get so pissy if you tell them to get to work, "i've been here 3 0 years and I'm calling my union rep!!!"

[racer2c]

good to see the other engineering brain is back in town http://www2.hornfans.com/wwwthreads/images/icons/smokin.gif
tired of having to listen to OGorman talk about the badassness that is his glorified gokart :gomer:

spicoli: you + uptown Dallas + proud leasee of 3 series == perfect fit

the UAW does suck balls though, they do the manuf at my plant... now if I decided to quit work for 20 minutes every hour and dick around and not put in my 10 hours every day, i'd get canned in a heartbeat for mischarging time... now if you're in a UNION, or more specifically the UAW, you can do this all day every day, not make up the time you wasted, and NOT get fired... apparently this is the point of the UAW... to help you quit work 1/3 of your day while you smoke during times that aren't your designated "breaks" :rolleyes: ****ing di*****s. and they get so pissy if you tell them to get to work, "i've been here 3 0 years and I'm calling my union rep!!!"

Hmm, you work ten hours a day and post on OC ten hours a day? Sweet :gomer:

It will be a sad day when Toyota rules the world.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Its the Union Labor that is killing the companies
I think that producing *****ty car after *****ty car that depreciate so fast that it makes your head spin is killing the companies.

[Ankf00]

Hmm, you work ten hours a day and post on OC ten hours a day? Sweet :gomer:

It will be a sad day when Toyota rules the world.

actually, I dont post at all during the day anymore :gomer:

[Jag_Warrior]

Hmm, you work ten hours a day and post on OC ten hours a day? Sweet :gomer:

It will be a sad day when Toyota rules the world.

After what happened with CART, I have mixed feelings about saying this, but they do kick @ss with their organizations. If GM (and Ford) had truly imitated Toyota, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now. I believe in Darwin's theory and I believe competition rules. Not only is GM losing, they're just flat getting beaten. So I have to admire Toyota for that. You really can't learn much of anything from the likes of GM. But the Toyota production techniques are fascinating... in their simplicity. Just do the right things right... over & over again.

[Ankf00]

After what happened with CART, I have mixed feelings about saying this, but they do kick @ss with their organizations. If GM (and Ford) had truly imitated Toyota, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now. I believe in Darwin's theory and I believe competition rules. Not only is GM losing, they're just flat getting beaten. So I have to admire Toyota for that. You really can't learn much of anything from the likes of GM. But the Toyota production techniques are fascinating... in their simplicity. Just do the right things right... over & over again.

Toyota INVENTED lean manufacturing... then Honda went and perfected it...

FMC and GM have thumbs up their asses...

the market is performing as it should.

[chop456]

Drive a 1990 Cavalier, then a 2005 Cobalt.

Then drive a 1990 Camry, then a 2005 Camry.

Then tell me how GM has kept up with the times.

[Jag_Warrior]

the UAW does suck balls though, they do the manuf at my plant... now if I decided to quit work for 20 minutes every hour and dick around and not put in my 10 hours every day, i'd get canned in a heartbeat for mischarging time... now if you're in a UNION, or more specifically the UAW, you can do this all day every day, not make up the time you wasted, and NOT get fired... apparently this is the point of the UAW... to help you quit work 1/3 of your day while you smoke during times that aren't your designated "breaks" :rolleyes: ****ing di*****s. and they get so pissy if you tell them to get to work, "i've been here 3 0 years and I'm calling my union rep!!!"

Oh, I agree. I'm not defending the UAW. If I ever get real drunk and do that, throw Sarah Fisher on me and crush my skull quickly.

For whatever reason, many UAW members are detached from reality. They don't understand that corporations are in business to make money and enhance shareholder value - not to guarantee them a paid vacation (out of the house) for life. Why do your UAW guys get smoke breaks? The ones at some GM plants get to smoke on the floor. When I heard that, it blew me away. Hittin' a butt while they bolt in the ABS. That's why everytime I get stuck with a GM rental barge, I get nervous when I tap the brakes.

But I more blame the edumacated fools with MBA's (but they've read Theory Z!), who let their companies get taken over a barrel by a group of high school grads with attitudes. Plus, a lot of the mfg. companies that are struggling don't have union problems (or unions). Just clueless management. We've been conducting a Purge of Dumb@sses for the past few months. The fact that I'm still there sorta tells you just how goofed up we are, huh? :o

[chop456]

That's why everytime I get stuck with a GM rental barge, I get nervous when I tap the brakes.

I needed a long-term rental a few weeks ago while my car was having body work done. All Enterprise had in ready stock was an Impala or a Classic. I begged and pleaded until they found a Camry that was due back soon and I sat and waited for it. Phew.

Last week I'd reserved a Hyundai Accent (or similar) :D, for an Arizona road trip, gas prices being what they are. When I showed up, all they had was a Taurus or Impala. No Camry love available this time. My wife has a Taurus and I know what that's like, so I took the Impala. Good lord. What an awful POS. My clock radio has better switchgear. Horrible ergonomics, no power, and incredibly poor handling and braking, all resulting in depreciation similar to a grilled cheese sandwich. All the things people look for in a car. :rolleyes:

Lutz is about 20 years too late.

[Ankf00]

my cuz is doing the same thing, his shop's at 40% efficiency, been trying to get rid of the bums despite their "i've been here 30 years" attitude, gotten 3 of the to retire w/ benefits so far instaed of getting fired for "violating company policy" or even worse lying to govt investigators...

I call him Mr. Burns :gomer:

[nrc]

Camrys look and drive like tupperware.

[Lizzerd]

Here's my UAW story.

Several years ago, early '90's, my company did a project to design a battery tester for what was then known as Delco-Remy. We had to wait for 45 minutes for a union electrician to come switch on an electrical panel for us on the factory floor. All the while, GM was paying my company $70/hour (not to mention the Delco engineer I was working with who was forbidden to touch the switch) for sitting on my ass while he or I could have flipped the same red switch in two seconds. Job security for the electician, you know...

[chop456]

Here's my UAW story.

Several years ago, early '90's, my company did a project to design a battery tester for what was then known as Delco-Remy. We had to wait for 45 minutes for a union electrician to come switch on an electrical panel for us on the factory floor. All the while, GM was paying my company $70/hour (not to mention the Delco engineer I was working with who was forbidden to touch the switch) for sitting on my ass while he or I could have flipped the same red switch in two seconds. Job security for the electician, you know...

Nice.

This one was told to me by a business prof. He grew up in Detroit and the men in his family had all worked at various assembly plants dating back to sometime before the dinosaurs turned into oil.

When he'd take a bathroom break, once in a while he'd notice one of the guys leaving a stall with a big, accordion-folded sheet of cardboard. Sometimes they'd be getting the cardboard out of their lockers and taking it into the stall. Being the new guy on the job, he just ignored it for a while until it became too much to bear. He finally asked one of the guys what they were doing. It turned out that they'd take the cardboard into the stall, lay it down over the seat and lid, then up in front of the tank. When you sat on it and kicked your feet up against the door, it made a sort of butterfly chair. Perfect for that afternoon nap you need between lunch hour and break time. :thumbup: :rolleyes:

[FTG]

Drive a 1990 Cavalier, then a 2005 Cobalt.

Then drive a 1990 Camry, then a 2005 Camry.

Guess which cars are made by union workers?

[chop456]

Guess which cars are made by union workers?

My point about the unions is not a quality of work issue, it's a cost of business issue. The fact that horrible design and engineering make their way into production isn't the union's fault. The fact that GM can't still make money while building crappy cars is the union's fault. ;)

[Spicoli]

........... so I took the Impala. Good lord. What an awful POS. My clock radio has better switchgear. Horrible ergonomics, no power, and incredibly poor handling and braking, all resulting in depreciation similar to a grilled cheese sandwich. All the things people look for in a car. :rolleyes:

Lutz is about 20 years too late.

:rofl:

haHAHAaaa.

My dum***** brother in law bought one of these - black with tinted windows and 'mag' wheeels. :gomer:

He brought it over on Monday.




I made fun of him, and he got upset and left.

dick.

[Tifosi24]

I am still a young economist so I don't get into the battle over union labor that often because the majority of people have deep-seated personally opinons for or against it. It is likely an institution that is not completely necessary in this day and age, but then again big business has a way of being inefficient too.The unions are a problem for Ford and GM, but only from a profit maximizing standpoint. As many have said, the unions aren't the ones designing craptastic cars that no one except country bumpkins would think of getting into. This is a purely demand based problem. If you build a poor quality car long enough it will hurt the demand for that product and people will look to substitute goods. There is a reason why my dad, who is a 30+ year CWA employee, and bought a Honda for the first time instead of an American car. There are a lot of idiots with college degrees out there and it would seem that GM and Ford have a lot of them.

Non Economics related statement: I don't know where all the great design praise from an astetic (sp?) point is for Camry. I have never seen or sat in one that gave me any impression that the car had any kind of soul. It must be the craftsmanship that keeps people coming back to them.

[Jag_Warrior]

Toyota INVENTED lean manufacturing... then Honda went and perfected it...

FMC and GM have thumbs up their asses...

the market is performing as it should.

Right you are. Mention Lean, Just-In-Time or Six Sigma to a union guy (or an old style manager) and all they can think of is job and cost cuts. Those things may come to be if there are redundant positions, or great inefficiencies. But if you are an autoworker these days, searching for a job at Honda, Toyota or Hyundai is where you'll most likely find steady employment. They use it to build the business, right? The unions are a problem, but I blame poor management for their existence. Very few of the transplant operations have unions or union problems. Management there is not obsessed with how to max their bonuses (at the workers' expense).

Someone mentioned that Ford owned Mazda. Ford owns a percentage of Mazda and has basic control. But the workforce cultures (and quality) of the two coudn't be more different. The same is true of Nissan and Renault. If Carlos Ghosn is successful, he'll get Renault's quality up to where he got Nissan's.

These programs work. But the cultural change requried by Americans to make them effective is maybe too much. It's only a matter of time before GM itself becomes a fossil fuel.

[Sean O'Gorman]

haHAHAaaa.

My dum***** brother in law bought one of these - black with tinted windows and 'mag' wheeels. :gomer:

He brought it over on Monday.




I made fun of him, and he got upset and left.

dick.

:rofl:

Guess I'm not the only one who has ever pissed off family over a vehicle purchase they made. Back in 2002, my cousin was looking for cars and I was pushing him towards a Mazda Protege5 because it was perfect for what he was looking for, which was a small car but still one large enough to haul around his guitar and amps and such. Instead he goes out and buys a brand new Cavalier 2-dr, base model everything, for $15,000. :eek:

Three years later I bet that car isn't even worth $6,000, and he is working two jobs and going to school to pay for that car and his Harley. I bet that Protege5 could probably sell for at least $10,000-12,000 used right now. :shakehead

[Jag_Warrior]

Non Economics related statement: I don't know where all the great design praise from an astetic (sp?) point is for Camry. I have never seen or sat in one that gave me any impression that the car had any kind of soul. It must be the craftsmanship that keeps people coming back to them.

I'd say you're right. I drove a Camry to work for several years (and still have it). But no, I never got in it and thought, man, this is sweet! I got in it thinking, unless a tire blows out, I know I'm going to get to where I'm going. Utilitarian robots don't have soul - they just do and do and do.

Reputations (good or bad) are hard to overcome. American made cars have actually gained a great deal on the quality front, though still not up to Japanese or transplant standards. Think about the people who've been buying Mercedes for years... and still buy them - even though their quality standards have fallen dramatically. Until it really catches up with them, they'll sell Mercedes on their past good rep. GM and Ford have years to go before they live down the crap they've put out since the 70's.

[G.]

This is one of the most enlightening topics I've seen here. I had no clue that Ford and GM didn't use JIT, 6sigma, SPC, etc. I mean, that stuff was old in the 90's! Lemonade stands use this stuff!

:shakehead

[racer2c]

Camrys look and drive like tupperware.

Yep.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Camrys are the most boring imports I drive at work. At least the Accords in the higher price range have some character to them.

But hey, Camrys run, and they run well. I remember seeing a list of J.D. Power's projections for the most reliable cars coming out in 2005, and there were I think 3 Honda/Acuras, a Subaru, a Mitsubishi, and a dozen Toyota/Lexus models. Only thing missing where the Scions, 2 of which are the same as the Echo (which was on the list) anyway. It actually kinda surprised me because the motor they put in the Celica and the MR-2 Spyder has had problems with blowing up, but both cars are on the list.

[lone_groover]

I drive a '96 Camry and it works just fine.

What do you expect from a car, anywayz?

:saywhat:

[racer2c]

I drive a '96 Camry and it works just fine.

What do you expect from a car, anywayz?

:saywhat:

uh, chicks? Yeah, chicks!

[FCYTravis]

Camrys look and drive like tupperware.
Yes, because that's what the market wants - an appliance for the road. I'd never buy anything so dull and pointless, but there's a whole lot of people who just want to get in, turn the key, move the lever to Drive, sit in gridlocked traffic idling for 40 minutes while they sip their Starbucks, get to work, rinse, repeat.

By contrast, GM builds Impalas which look and drive like a Rube Goldberg machine. "Hey, what's this switch do and why is it hanging off the center console? Why does it feel like my brake pedal is connected to the calipers with a piece of piano wire? Why does it take 30 seconds for my 30-year-old-design V6 to reach cruising speed?"

[coolhand]

Its all of these United Auto Workers AFL-CIO and other leftist movments that are bringing down the auto manus. Dont blame the managment becuase they had no choice in the matter.

these unions have been around since WWI and have a history of violent riots (one time they destroyed and entire GM plant). These oragnizations have been around forever and have gained way too much power, they are bringing down the business now and i am afraid Ford and GM will have to go under to release themselves from the union strangle hold. Commie bastards :gomer:

In Toyota and honda's case, things have been they way they are since the end of WWII. They were smart enough to not let themselves get into the bind of socialized/unioned labor. Couple that with better mafcs. techniques and you have a healthier company.

Plus they stayed away from Detriot. If i would start a car company today i would base it as far away from detriot as possible. :shakehead

[FCYTravis]

Yes, all these leftist unions are evil and destroying America. Because, you know, the eight-hour day and five-day work week are Communist ideals.

The failure of these corporations has nothing at all whatsoever to do with their complete inability to design or engineer a world-class family sedan - I don't care about the Corvette, anyone can build a sports car, just look at the Italians - I care that they can't for the love of God build a family sedan that competes with the Accord and Camry without $5,000 factory rebates.

No, the fact that GM and Ford are floundering has nothing to do with the fact that for years, they've been living off their finance assets (Ditech.com = GMAC) and ignoring the basic economics of investing in design and engineering. It has nothing to do with the fact that GM insists on shoving junk pushrod 3800 V6s into cars in which every competition model has a DOHC.

No, it has nothing to do with bloated corporate bonuses - it's all the union's fault. We'll ignore that some of the best cars in the world are built in Germany, where unions reign supreme. We'll ignore the fact that DaimlerChrysler is unionized but doesn't seem to be having the same sort of problems - mostly because their designers and engineers have come up with a very sweet lineup of products that Americans want to buy.

So it's OK for rich people to join together and form corporations that pool their power and push their agenda, but it's un-American for working people to join together and form unions that pool their power and push their agenda.

I'll have to remember that.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yes, because that's what the market wants - an appliance for the road. I'd never buy anything so dull and pointless, but there's a whole lot of people who just want to get in, turn the key, move the lever to Drive, sit in gridlocked traffic idling for 40 minutes while they sip their Starbucks, get to work, rinse, repeat.

By contrast, GM builds Impalas which look and drive like a Rube Goldberg machine. "Hey, what's this switch do and why is it hanging off the center console? Why does it feel like my brake pedal is connected to the calipers with a piece of piano wire? Why does it take 30 seconds for my 30-year-old-design V6 to reach cruising speed?"

Yeah, it is strange how people can actually like driving "normal" vehicles.

Twice over the course of March my car was out of commission (first for ignition problems, then for water pump) and I was borrowing my mom's car (first a '95 Intrepid, then they traded it in for an '05 Sentra), and all I could think was how boring they were. I liked having climate control and a Rockford Fosgate stereo or whatever, but there was no feel to the road, it was just, boring. I mean, I drive the same in my MR2 as I would in a sedan, but at least I know the MR2 can be fun on weekends.

And speaking of that Nissan, aside from my little brother's '91 Acclaim, our house is now domestic-free. My dad's side of the family used to be exclusively Chrysler but he just got sick of engine and transmission rebuilds, 14 mpg, shoddy electronics, etc. The Sentra is the first ever new car my family has ever bought.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Yes, all these leftist unions are evil and destroying America. Because, you know, the eight-hour day and five-day work week are Communist ideals.

The failure of these corporations has nothing at all whatsoever to do with their complete inability to design or engineer a world-class family sedan - I don't care about the Corvette, anyone can build a sports car, just look at the Italians - I care that they can't for the love of God build a family sedan that competes with the Accord and Camry without $5,000 factory rebates.

No, the fact that GM and Ford are floundering has nothing to do with the fact that for years, they've been living off their finance assets (Ditech.com = GMAC) and ignoring the basic economics of investing in design and engineering. It has nothing to do with the fact that GM insists on shoving junk pushrod 3800 V6s into cars in which every competition model has a DOHC.

No, it has nothing to do with bloated corporate bonuses - it's all the union's fault. We'll ignore that some of the best cars in the world are built in Germany, where unions reign supreme. We'll ignore the fact that DaimlerChrysler is unionized but doesn't seem to be having the same sort of problems - mostly because their designers and engineers have come up with a very sweet lineup of products that Americans want to buy.

So it's OK for rich people to join together and form corporations that pool their power and push their agenda, but it's un-American for working people to join together and form unions that pool their power and push their agenda.

I'll have to remember that.

IBTL

[lone_groover]

Man.....some of you guys need to get to a hootenanny. PRONTO!


:cry:

[oddlycalm]

This is one of the most enlightening topics I've seen here. I had no clue that Ford and GM didn't use JIT, 6sigma, SPC, etc. I mean, that stuff was old in the 90's! The manufacturing is not really where the problems are, and most of the assembly issues are a result of design failures. Both GM and Ford have been using SPC since the late 80's, and they and their suppliers do use a 6 sigma quality curve. The material supply systems are not up to the Japanese companies, but the Japanese companies have their own set of problems when it comes to being hostage to the misguided dictates of technical authority from outside the plant.

While there are a lot of contributitory issues to GM's and Ford's woes, the most imortant one is product planning. If you don't offer products that people want to buy, it doesn't matter what else you do. After working with these companies on technical issues for over 20yrs, and also working with their foreign competitors, there is not doubt in my mind that if their products were interesting they would survive just fine.

These companies have a lot of good people at all levels of the company, but mangement has never allowed them to innovate. Nobody in engineering wants to put a new car on a 15yr old platform with a 30yr old engine, that's a decision made on the 14th floor.

oc

[JT265]

What's a "no nothing"?

:p

busted.

It's like when I lived at the mission. The boys would go for a haul and I would say....

"HEY!!!!! I GET SOME OF THE TAKE, RIGHT???"

And the reply was always.....

"no, nothing" :gomer:

[oddlycalm]

Its all of these United Auto Workers AFL-CIO and other leftist movments that are bringing down the auto manus. I didn't post this thread to start a political discussion, as politics is banned from this forum. I started it because we a facing a situation where 1.1 million direct company and supplier jobs are potentially being threatened as well as millions more that depend on them. As an example, what do you suppose Timken's business model is going to look like if GM and Ford go down? It's not just their Timken, Fafnir, Torrington, MPB and Split Ball bearing product lines, Timken tube mills produce most of the high quality seamless drawn tube made in the US for all applications. If Timken folds that puts areospace is in big trouble as well. This situation is so far ranging that it's hard to overstate the effects on the economy.

Aside from the question of whether the country's economy could survive these failures, this also bears heavily on racing as we know it. Ford has already withdrawn from F1. A total GM and Ford withdrawl from racing would damn near kill NASCAR, hinder CCWS, gut ALMS, strongly effect WRC and drag racing. Then add in all the withdrawls of sponsorship by the automotive suppliers. Pretty ugly prospect.

oc

[JT265]

Man.....some of you guys need to get to a hootenanny. PRONTO!


:cry:


I wanna groover, I really do. Sadly, I lost a u-joint in the Gremlin. Got any idea how hard it is to get parts for a popular ride like my Gremlin?!?!? :cry: :cry:

[lone_groover]

Hey, was that brought about by your severe Alcoholic Rheumatism?

:laugh:

[Methanolandbrats]

It's clear that autoworkers working 60 hour weeks without healthcare would inspire autobuyers to trip over each other for the chance to buy an Aztec.

[coolhand]

It's clear that autoworkers working 60 hour weeks without healthcare would inspire autobuyers to trip over each other for the chance to buy an Aztec.

nope, but maybe these companies would have more liquid assets to spend on things that would keep the company afoat.

But no, the ridicuous union standards nowadays has cost companies too much for employees who abuse thier privleges.

Now these companies are going down the tank and they may not ahve jobs anymore.

but hey its not my problem :shakehead

[nrc]

While there are a lot of contributitory issues to GM's and Ford's woes, the most imortant one is product planning. If you don't offer products that people want to buy, it doesn't matter what else you do.

Yep, Ford U.S. took a ten year nap living off trucks and Taurus fleet sales.

[coolhand]

I didn't post this thread to start a political discussion, as politics is banned from this forum. I started it because we a facing a situation where 1.1 million direct company and supplier jobs are potentially being threatened as well as millions more that depend on them. As an example, what do you suppose Timken's business model is going to look like if GM and Ford go down? It's not just their Timken, Fafnir, Torrington, MPB and Split Ball bearing product lines, Timken tube mills produce most of the high quality seamless drawn tube made in the US for all applications. If Timken folds that puts areospace is in big trouble as well. This situation is so far ranging that it's hard to overstate the effects on the economy.

Aside from the question of whether the country's economy could survive these failures, this also bears heavily on racing as we know it. Ford has already withdrawn from F1. A total GM and Ford withdrawl from racing would damn near kill NASCAR, hinder CCWS, gut ALMS, strongly effect WRC and drag racing. Then add in all the withdrawls of sponsorship by the automotive suppliers. Pretty ugly prospect.

oc


I understand where you are comming from and agree with your concerns. But the politics of the detriot auto biz are a direct factor in this. I think they have to collapse and start all over if they want to compete with foreign companies.

This archaic system cannot sustain itself much longer.

[coolhand]

Yep, Ford U.S. took a ten year nap living off trucks and Taurus fleet sales.

My father had a new taurus fleet car for years each year. But the last few times the car was giving him back pains and had to give up the free car.

[RacinM3]

I don't know where the hell all these analysts have been....I downgraded Ford and GM to "junk" status years ago!

[mapguy]

True story. A couple of workers at the GM plant in Oshawa, Ontario. Working the paint area for the Chevy Lumina. Workers went to the bar before their late shift. Got drunk and went to work. Peed, pooped and threw gravel and garbage in the paint pits. Cost GM millions in repainting the vehicles. Workers were fired and GM pressed charges. CAW filed a grievence and the charges were dropped and they got their jobs back. :rolleyes:

UAW/CAW :thumdown:

10 years ago a floor sweeper at the Oshawa plant got $20+ an hour. I busted my *** for just over half that. I have no respect for unions and the management who let the unions walk all over them.

[Methanolandbrats]

GM could use slave labor and they would still go down the tubes because they build vehicles for a shrinking customer base. The executives are really stupid. That is the problem.

[Sean O'Gorman]

It's clear that autoworkers working 60 hour weeks without healthcare would inspire autobuyers to trip over each other for the chance to buy an Aztec.

Honda's employees seem to be doing fine without unions...

[mapguy]

Honda's employees seem to be doing fine without unions...

and without the 60 hour work weeks too....

[Methanolandbrats]

Well, I'll try again. It would'nt matter if GM employees worked for free. The company is doomed because they design and build vehicles nobody wants.

[Gnam]

^^ If I hadn't been on break I coulda typed that first. ;)

The problem isn't who makes the product (unions) or even how they make the product (just in time, management). The problem is the product. No one wants it.

Fixing the other things will only allow them to make a product no one wants for a longer period of time.

Personally, I blame front wheel drive.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Well, I'll try again. It would'nt matter if GM employees worked for free. The company is doomed because they design and build vehicles nobody wants.

But just think how much money could be saved and later reapplied to R&D, supply chain management, marketing (what does their marketing consist of anyway, buying the rights to 70s rock songs and createing massive rebates?), etc. by taking back control from the unions.

[Methanolandbrats]

THere was a time when all GM had to do was build a car and people would buy it because GM had 50% market share and loyal customers who did'nt shop. GM *still* thinks all they have to do is build a car and people will buy it. That is the problem.

[B3RACER1a]

Everyone thinks that it is just one problem, and its not. Its pretty much a combination of everything everyone has said here.

[Sean O'Gorman]

THere was a time when all GM had to do was build a car and people would buy it because GM had 50% market share and loyal customers who did'nt shop. GM *still* thinks all they have to do is build a car and people will buy it. That is the problem.

It still works in the Midwest. Trust me, so many people around here in Cleveland wont look at imports, it just boggles the mind when you consider how many problems the cars have. The only rationale I've ever heard for it is "we got a great deal" or "I ain't buying no car made by some Japs, even the ones made in America the profits still go to Japan." :shakehead

[coolhand]

True story. A couple of workers at the GM plant in Oshawa, Ontario. Working the paint area for the Chevy Lumina. Workers went to the bar before their late shift. Got drunk and went to work. Peed, pooped and threw gravel and garbage in the paint pits. Cost GM millions in repainting the vehicles. Workers were fired and GM pressed charges. CAW filed a grievence and the charges were dropped and they got their jobs back. :rolleyes:

UAW/CAW :thumdown:

10 years ago a floor sweeper at the Oshawa plant got $20+ an hour. I busted my *** for just over half that. I have no respect for unions and the management who let the unions walk all over them.

good post :thumbup:

[Methanolandbrats]

It still works in the Midwest. Trust me, so many people around here in Cleveland wont look at imports, it just boggles the mind when you consider how many problems the cars have. The only rationale I've ever heard for it is "we got a great deal" or "I ain't buying no car made by some Japs, even the ones made in America the profits still go to Japan." :shakehead Ya is still works, but the sales volume it generates is eroding year by year as more and more families raised on GM products decide to try other brands. Cross shopping killed the car division. When pickup drivers fully accept Honda and Toyota Pickups, it's game over.

[FTG]

Well, I'll try again. It would'nt matter if GM employees worked for free. The company is doomed because they design and build vehicles nobody wants.

Wrong. They sell more cars than any other company in the world. It's a fact. Look it up.

The problem is they can't make any money selling more cars than anyone else in the world, and the reason is because they are paying $1,500 per car for retired workers.

You may think management is stupid, but I bet they are smart enough to figure out that they can reduce their healthcare costs by moving production to Canada, Mexico and China, .

[FCYTravis]

You may think management is stupid, but I bet they are smart enough to figure out that they can reduce their healthcare costs by moving production to Canada, Mexico and China, .
Yes, and how is it they reduce health care costs by having production in Canada?

Because of the nationalized health system everyone loves to hate. GM doesn't have to pay exorbitant private health insurance premiums because the tax structure ensures every person already has health insurance for life. Tradeoffs, you see? The national system keeps "premiums" in check by spreading the costs out across the widest possible spectrum. Companies don't get directly stuck with the bill for the spiraling costs of covering aging retiree populations.

As for the other two, if you want a Mexican or Chinese standard of living in America, go ahead and globalize everything. I'm sure American workers won't mind being paid $1 per hour for a 60-hour work week with no insurance, job security or workplace safety. I'm sure our consumption-driven service economy will be completely unaffected by the complete loss of buying power and leisure time available to the working and middle classes.

:shakehead

Americans cannot compete on a strict wage/benefit basis with the rest of the world - we set higher standards than that. Unless you want to turn the clock back to 1910. I'd rather not, thanks.

[cart7]

There was a day many years ago when the American consumer would buy only a Zenith, RCA, Magnavox, GE, Sylvania or Motorola/Quasar TV.
Over the past 10 - 15 years:

Zenith went under and was bought out by Goldstar.

RCA & GE were bought out by French Electronics giant Thomson.

Magnavox and Sylvania were bought out by Phillips in Europe.

Motorola/Quasar sold off their electronics division to Matsushita.

The reason was basically the same for each, declining sales due to a product that wasn't cutting the mustard in comparison to foreign brands. Each company was guilty of taking the American consumer, who had supported them for years, for granted. They all assumed they would continue to sell TV's in mass quantities like they always had regardless of how bad their picture looked vs. the foreign competition or how unreliable their set was compared to offshore brands.

[Ankf00]

I understand where you are comming from and agree with your concerns. But the politics of the detriot auto biz are a direct factor in this. I think they have to collapse and start all over if they want to compete with foreign companies.

This archaic system cannot sustain itself much longer.
:rolleyes:

Germany offers their workers boatloads of vacation time and has implemented many protectionist labor policies, yet somehow they're still competitive *gasp*
UAW may suck and you may hate unions but that's not close to the main factor in this problem

[Ankf00]

There was a day many years ago when the American consumer would buy only a Zenith, RCA, Magnavox, GE, Sylvania or Motorola/Quasar TV.
Over the past 10 - 15 years:

Zenith went under and was bought out by Goldstar.

RCA & GE were bought out by French Electronics giant Thomson.

Magnavox and Sylvania were bought out by Phillips in Europe.

Motorola/Quasar sold off their electronics division to Matsushita.

The reason was basically the same for each, declining sales due to a product that wasn't cutting the mustard in comparison to foreign brands. Each company was guilty of taking the American consumer, who had supported them for years, for granted. They all assumed they would continue to sell TV's in mass quantities like they always had regardless of how bad their picture looked vs. the foreign competition or how unreliable their set was compared to offshore brands.

CRT dumping in the US market from decades past didn't help out US tv makers either

[Ankf00]

Wrong. They sell more cars than any other company in the world. It's a fact. Look it up.

The problem is they can't make any money selling more cars than anyone else in the world, and the reason is because they are paying $1,500 per car for retired workers.

You may think management is stupid, but I bet they are smart enough to figure out that they can reduce their healthcare costs by moving production to Canada, Mexico and China, .


no, the reason they can't is because they can't sell a sedan for profit. discounted sedans only exist to pad fleetwide CAFE standards so they can keep selling for-profit trucks and keep cashing in on interest payments...

why? s***** engineering all the way around. s***** manufacturing processes and a completely screwed up design cycle.

funny how Japan up until the past 5-8 years had "employment for life" and one of the strongest economies in the world with good ol' socialist social and labor policies and still managed to make profits in any industry they put their minds to...

[Methanolandbrats]

Wrong. They sell more cars than any other company in the world. It's a fact. Look it up.

The problem is they can't make any money selling more cars than anyone else in the world, and the reason is because they are paying $1,500 per car for retired workers.

You may think management is stupid, but I bet they are smart enough to figure out that they can reduce their healthcare costs by moving production to Canada, Mexico and China, . Yup, they're losing market share because of health care costs. That makes sense. Instead of building decent, competitive small cars they concentrated on trucks and stupid SUVs for profits. That's about over. All that's left then is GMAC.

[Michaelhatesfans]

The only rationale I've ever heard for it is "we got a great deal" or "I ain't buying no car made by some Japs, even the ones made in America the profits still go to Japan." :shakehead
I worked at a tire store in college. I had a guy get all huffy when I showed him the Firestones, going into a rant about how they weren't American tires anymore so he wouldn't buy them. We watched him get in his Mercedes and drive across the street to fill up at the BP station.
Fugging idiot. :shakehead

[nrc]

Unions, engineering, products, all those are just smaller problems within the larger problem for the U.S. auto industry (and U.S. industry in general). U.S. companies are too driven by Wall Street to pursue short term profits. The Japanese take a longer view and look to gain market share.

[coolhand]

:rolleyes:

Germany offers their workers boatloads of vacation time and has implemented many protectionist labor policies, yet somehow they're still competitive *gasp*
UAW may suck and you may hate unions but that's not close to the main factor in this problem

Tell me how that socialist quagmire of an economy is doing right now is the fatherland.

these systems can only support themselves for aobut 20 years

[coolhand]

Yup, they're losing market share because of health care costs. That makes sense. Instead of building decent, competitive small cars they concentrated on trucks and stupid SUVs for profits. That's about over. All that's left then is GMAC.

The trucks and SUVs outsell cars in America, thats where the money is and where GM should focus, its their only money maker

[nrc]

The trucks and SUVs outsell cars in America, thats where the money is and where GM should focus, its their only money maker
Then gas prices blow the bottom out of their barge sales and they've got no cars to sell. That's the kind of short-sighted profit seeking I mentioned above. The idea that they had to neglect their car line to make profitable trucks is foolish.

[Spicoli]

http://www.royalambassadorapts.com/skier666/MM_1.JPG

oooki