Champ outta action

[SurfaceUnits]

The unforgiving SAFER barrier that lines the four distinct turns of the 2.5-mile Indianapolis Motor Speedway claimed its first victim of the month early this afternoon.

2004 Indy 500 champ Buddy Rice appeared to lose adhesion entering the second turn, hit the barrier with the rear of his #15 Argent Mortgage/Pioneer Panoz/Honda/Firestone racer and committed a 360-degree spin, scattering debris at corner exit.

Dr. Bock indicated Rice was awake and alert while undergoing on-site treatment. Following further examination Bock and the physicians on call at Methodist Hospital decided to admit Rice fore further observation. He sustained a severe back contusion and concussion, according to Dr. Bock.

Rice's further participation at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway and the Indianapolis 500 will not be decided until next week," Indy Racing League officials stated.

http://www.motorsport.com/news/article.asp?ID=184676#

http://www.motorsport.com/photos/irl/2005/ind/irl-2005-ind-mj-0101.jpg

[rabbit]

I'm still not entirely convinced that the SAFER barrier is really any safer.

[Brickman]

I'm still not entirely convinced that the SAFER barrier is really any safer.

Can't agree. Except for a hole put in a wall in a NASCAR race, that the most I have seen a safer wall cave in. The G force numbers should be something. The comparison numbers even more so.

[Insomniac]

I'm still not entirely convinced that the SAFER barrier is really any safer.

Just the physics indicate it's better than a concrete wall.

[Chief]

Cave-in alluded to the fact it was a 78G hit. I'm amazed there's not more damage, that is one rigid tranny/engine/chassis. Is it any wonder the IRL's legacy is one of head injuries and back breaking burst fractures?

[Don Quixote]

Also, when the gear box on these wagons was farther back, they obviously had a propensity to back hard into the wall. The IRL always flatly denied that there was any problem, but nevertheless, the design was changed and the box no longer protrudes from the back of the car like it used to. But it still seems to me that these things tend to flip around and back into the walls. Add to that the rigidity as mentioned by Chief, and its a recipe for back and neck injuries and concussions. What am I missing here?

[Andrew Longman]

He must have hit the wall pretty square to not rip a wheel off, hence the 78Gs. I doubt any engine and tranny, being a stressed member, will collapse when it is compressed straight on. Far better to hit at an angle and simply rip the whole back off.

If there is area for improvement it may be in the seat and crushable space below/behind it.

At 78G BR is lucky with the injuries he has.

[Brickman]

He must have hit the wall pretty square to not rip a wheel off, hence the 78Gs. I doubt any engine and tranny, being a stressed member, will collapse when it is compressed straight on. Far better to hit at an angle and simply rip the whole back off.

If there is area for improvement it may be in the seat and crushable space below/behind it.

At 78G BR is lucky with the injuries he has.

Dixon was busted up at Motegi with a 67G hit and no soft wall last year.

[pchall]

The Rice wreck was featured on the local sports new here. Classic IRL attenuator straight into the wall hit. Are the cars, perhaps, actually doing that by design? :shakehead

[racer2c]

kudos to the doctor for discovering the concussion. No small feat on that patient.

[Skater_36]

kudos to the doctor for discovering the concussion. No small feat on that patient.

:rofl:

[JLMannin]

The Rice wreck was featured on the local sports new here. Classic IRL attenuator straight into the wall hit. Are the cars, perhaps, actually doing that by design? :shakehead

I seem to remember extensive aero discussions on 7G where it was theorized that air flow around the air boxes stabilized the cars going backwards so that they backed straight into the wall instead of continuing to spin. The crapwagon impacts at Indy are almost always square on the back end, as the car, once it spins backwards, travels in a straight line and the wall curves to meet the car square.

If the IRL is waiting a week to decide if he is OK to drive, they already know that he is not.

[Ziggy]

Change the oil on that Transaxle and it's good to go.

Brickman, care to inform us all again about those new and improved Crapwagon Gearboxes? That's not a gearbox, it's an anvil

biggest surprise comming

Buddy has "soft tissue" damage and will have to sit out Indy.........


Note to Champion Gomers - Rice's Rahole Crapwagon did not even shed a wheel..... It's more stoudt than a Kurtis Kraft 500C

[Brickman]

Change the oil on that Transaxle and it's good to go.

Brickman, care to inform us all again about those new and improved Crapwagon Gearboxes? That's not a gearbox, it's an anvil

biggest surprise comming

Buddy has "soft tissue" damage and will have to sit out Indy.........


Note to Champion Gomers - Rice's Rahole Crapwagon did not even shed a wheel..... It's more stoudt than a Kurtis Kraft 500C

They are new and improved.* Sorry it didn't crash and shed a wheel for you. :rolleyes:

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/p/ap/20050511/capt.naa10105111804.irl_indy_500_naa101.jpg

*Haven't we been through this already?

[Methanolandbrats]

Going in backwards is probably better than head-on which turns the driver's lower legs into two bags of bone chips or worse yet sideways which can be fatal.

[Napoleon]

Going in backwards is probably better than head-on which turns the driver's lower legs into two bags of bone chips or worse yet sideways which can be fatal.

Plus they can press their heads against the headrest which is a good thing.

[Gnam]

Going in backwards is probably better than head-on which turns the driver's lower legs into two bags of bone chips or worse yet sideways which can be fatal.
The front and side of the cars are designed to crumple to absorb impacts. The rear of the car is not. The first crumple zone to disipate any energy was Rice's back.

[DagoFast]

I'm still not entirely convinced that the SAFER barrier is really any safer.

I would beg to differ. I he had hit a plain old concrete wall, he would be following the Sam Schmid driver to team owner career path as we type. If he was lucky.

[coolhand]

kudos to the doctor for discovering the concussion. No small feat on that patient.
:rofl: :rofl:

[FCYTravis]

I don't think it's so much the airflow as the lack thereof. When the rear end pivots out 90 degrees, the huge, tall sidepods, airbox and honkin'-ass endplates just stand up in the 220-mph wind and basically stall the car out right there - it's like dumping the airbrake on an F/A-18.

[coolhand]

I don't think it's so much the airflow as the lack thereof. When the rear end pivots out 90 degrees, the huge, tall sidepods, airbox and honkin'-ass endplates just stand up in the 220-mph wind and basically stall the car out right there - it's like dumping the airbrake on an F/A-18.

yeah, when all those surfaces hit the wind the car can only go laterally up or down the track, with all the momentum forcing it towards the outside of the turn these cars will do the same thing everytime when they spin out.

[Methanolandbrats]

The front and side of the cars are designed to crumple to absorb impacts. The rear of the car is not. The first crumple zone to disipate any energy was Rice's back. Frontal at Indy = John Andretti, sideways might = head hitting the wall. With all the weight in the back, it's just a big lawn dart and it's going in backwards, which is why the back should crumple too.

[FCYTravis]

Problem is the back contains a bunch of big metal thingys. Transaxle, bell housing, engine. Until they develop some sort of "frangible" gearbox that can survive the rigors of racing *and* break apart in a controlled, energy-absorbing fashion, you're going to keep hitting a solid metal case.

Then you run into the problem of having to replace the gearbox every time you back into the wall. Gearboxes aren't cheap.

Obviously, though, the infamous Penske attenuator isn't attenuating enough.

[IlliniRacer]

Problem is the back contains a bunch of big metal thingys. Transaxle, bell housing, engine.

Maybe they should put the engines in the front. :p :gomer:

[FCYTravis]

Or maybe they should redesign the aerodynamics of the car so it doesn't present the profile of the Berlin Wall when it breaks traction at the rear wheels and pivots around.

But nah, we need our jumbo-size airboxes and endplates. Because, y'see, PEOPLE GOTTA SEE THE NUMBERS!!!!! :shakehead

[Racing Truth]

Or maybe they should redesign the aerodynamics of the car so it doesn't present the profile of the Berlin Wall when it breaks traction at the rear wheels and pivots around.

But nah, we need our jumbo-size airboxes and endplates. Because, y'see, PEOPLE GOTTA SEE THE NUMBERS!!!!! :shakehead

Right on. :thumbup: Especially at the speeds they're reaching. Dumb-*** aerodynamics is well, dumb

[Methanolandbrats]

Problem is the back contains a bunch of big metal thingys. Transaxle, bell housing, engine. Until they develop some sort of "frangible" gearbox that can survive the rigors of racing *and* break apart in a controlled, energy-absorbing fashion, you're going to keep hitting a solid metal case When Ralfie hit the wall, the back of his car seemed to "deform" and absorb a lot of the hit and he hit concrete. What was the G loading of that crash and what does F1 mandate at the back of the car?

[FCYTravis]

Carbon-fiber gearbox maybe? :confused:

Then again, using Ralfie's car as the model doesn't seem like the best idea considering that he got hurt substantially worse than Buddy. You have to consider that if your gearbox is entirely broken apart and you impact the wall with the engine block, that's going to be even uglier because there's nothing but fuel cell between the engine and the driver... piledriving the engine into the gas tank and then into the tub doesn't sound like a good plan to me.

[Steve99]

Obviously, though, the infamous Penske attenuator isn't attenuating enough.
Penske attenuator? Please explain.

F1 gearboxes are probably titanium, although this year some are experimenting with carbon fiber. Not how a titanium F1 box would compare to the IRL box.

[Andrew Longman]

[QUOTE=Steve99]Penske attenuator? Please explain.QUOTE]

The IRL gearbox has a carbon fibre "stinger" mounted on the back. The idea is to provide a crumple zone for rear end impact (is that OK to say on a family forum?)

I imagine the big problem is that making a rear-end crumble on impact is at odds with using the block and tranny as a stressed member of the chassis and suspension. I has to have almost no flex and should not be prone to cracking.

I also think the notion that the airbox, endplates and high side pod stall the car in mid rotation is interesting. If you think about it, it could actually accelerate the car into the wall as air spills off it. Just like a sail boat can take a 5 knot wind and turn it into 20 knots of thrust.

I'd like to look at some old Indy/CART tapes and study the difference. I, unfortuately seem to recall most accidents where front end impact at busted feet (see andretti, Ongias, etc.). Others, like Fittipaldi's at the US 500 he rotated the full 180 and hit on the left side. That was a big whollop, but it was mostly deflection. Straight on would be far worse.

[Steve99]

How did the name Penske get attached to the attenuator?

[pchall]

Manning backs into the wall, too.

Thu, 12 May 2005 17:25:16 -0500
Yellow - Heavy rear contact in T2 by #10T Manning.

Thu, 12 May 2005 17:29:43 -0500
#10T Manning helped out of car and into safety vehicle.

[Sean O'Gorman]

How did the name Penske get attached to the attenuator?

I know, you'd think Ganassi's name is more likely to be associated with rear ends.

[FCYTravis]

It's my understanding that the attenuator is a spec part that's manufactured by Penske's composite operations.

Every time an IRL car crashes, Penske gets some cash.

[coolhand]

I also think the notion that the airbox, endplates and high side pod stall the car in mid rotation is interesting. If you think about it, it could actually accelerate the car into the wall as air spills off it. Just like a sail boat can take a 5 knot wind and turn it into 20 knots of thrust.

that is true, i would like somone to bring that up at TF :gomer:

[FRANKY]

Manning backs into the wall, too.

Thu, 12 May 2005 17:25:16 -0500
Yellow - Heavy rear contact in T2 by #10T Manning.

Thu, 12 May 2005 17:29:43 -0500
#10T Manning helped out of car and into safety vehicle.

Rabbit needs to look at that tape, great view of how the soft wall absorbs energy.

[Methanolandbrats]

Rabbit needs to look at that tape, great view of how the soft wall absorbs energy. What tape?

[pchall]

What tape?

The IRL site has videos of the day's action on their site... it could be there.

[Paintergeek]

I'd like to look at some old Indy/CART tapes and study the difference. I, unfortuately seem to recall most accidents where front end impact at busted feet (see andretti, Ongias, etc.). Others, like Fittipaldi's at the US 500 he rotated the full 180 and hit on the left side. That was a big whollop, but it was mostly deflection. Straight on would be far worse.



Remeber Mark Blundell in, Was it, Rio? He lost his brakes, went through some grass, and literally STRAIGHT into the wall. Next to greg moore and jeff krosnoff, this is the nastiest, scariest accident I have ever seen live. He came out just fine. The busted feet was in the days of the short tub, where the drivers feet were just a smidgen behind the nose. (like Danny Sullivan). Todays cars take a front quite well, albeit I dont mean to imply its a good way to hit. I think 45 degrees is the way to go, But no maatter HOW you hit, Something can kill ya.

[coolhand]

see the huge photo spread of danica? :rolleyes: on the website

[coolhand]

http://www.indy500.com/multimedia/video/

all video is here. even buddy's acident

[DagoFast]

Remeber Mark Blundell in, Was it, Rio? He lost his brakes, went through some grass, and literally STRAIGHT into the wall. Next to greg moore and jeff krosnoff, this is the nastiest, scariest accident I have ever seen live. He came out just fine. The busted feet was in the days of the short tub, where the drivers feet were just a smidgen behind the nose. (like Danny Sullivan). Todays cars take a front quite well, albeit I dont mean to imply its a good way to hit. I think 45 degrees is the way to go, But no maatter HOW you hit, Something can kill ya.

IIRC, Blundel had that shunt at Homestead, back when it had 4 distinct findy type corners. NASTY crash. Almost as bad as big Mo's at Texas.

[rabbit]

Rabbit needs to look at that tape, great view of how the soft wall absorbs energy.
I saw it. If you watch it in slow-mo, Rice's gearbox hits at a slightly offset angle; not quite square. But as the wall gives, the car rotates to square, directing all the energy through the driver. If he hits concrete there, the gearbox would be more likely to slide down the wall rather than be "sucked" into it. And that's not taking into consiration the additional rotation his car might have done with the few more feet of space that the SAFER barrier took away. I'm not saying that concrete is safer than SAFER, but I am still unconvinced that the SAFER is that much better. They both have advantages and disadvantages.

[Hot Rod Otis]

IIRC, Blundel had that shunt at Homestead, back when it had 4 distinct findy type corners. NASTY crash. Almost as bad as big Mo's at Texas.

Nope, it was @ Rio.

It was a massive brake failure heading into T4. I remember reading somewhere that Mark said that in those couple seconds when he knew he was gonna hit really hard that he just knew he was gonna die. That car sounded like a bomb going off when he hit.

[rabbit]

Nope, it was @ Rio.

It was a massive brake failure heading into T4. I remember reading somewhere that Mark said that in those couple seconds when he knew he was gonna hit really hard that he just knew he was gonna die. That car sounded like a bomb going off when he hit.
It was Rio. I'll never forget that sound when they showed the replay full speed. :eek: :eek: He said that he actually aimed for BigMo's car to try and slow himself down before he hit. He missed Mo's rear wing by inches.

[DagoFast]

Thanx, I stand corrected. Dang 'ol brain. LOL

But WHO am I thinking about at Homestead? Was that Big Mo also? Or Fitti jr.?

[IlliniRacer]

Thanx, I stand corrected. Dang 'ol brain. LOL

But WHO am I thinking about at Homestead? Was that Big Mo also? Or Fitti jr.?

Didn't The Shiggmeister do a 140G during practice back in 99? Never saw it but I remember everyone talking about it.

Fitti the lesser backed it in at Chicago in 2000 during practice and thought he was Batman for a couple of hours. He skipped the race

[coolhand]

Fitti the lesser backed it in at Chicago in 2000 during practice and thought he was Batman for a couple of hours. He skipped the race

:rofl:

[Brickman]

Thanx, I stand corrected. Dang 'ol brain. LOL

But WHO am I thinking about at Homestead? Was that Big Mo also? Or Fitti jr.?


Al Jr. 1999 Broken legs

[Peter Venkman]

"I imagine the big problem is that making a rear-end crumble on impact is at odds with using the block and tranny as a stressed member of the chassis and suspension. I has to have almost no flex and should not be prone to cracking."

Think about this: Mandate (the IRL is fond of doing that anyway) longitudinal members (reasoably capable of taking an axial and offset loads), independent of the engine/gearbox assembly, that run from the mid-chassis area (mounted in shear to reinforced side pod panels and perhaps into a mid-bulkhead) to beyond the rear of the gearbox (actually, surrounding the rear at the gearbox level) that would take a straight on rear shot (or a portion) and rather than taking the full impact energy through the engine/gearbox and undiminished into the spine, assume part of the load into reinforced shear panels in the side pods.
Side pods are relatively cheap and with increased skin thickness (with doublers and inserts that would transfer the loads into both skins) and increased core thickness, would actutually provide better direct side impact energy, as an aside.

Ugly? Yes. But so is getting around in a wheelchair and having someone else feed you and empty your pee bottle.

[coolhand]

how about not designing crapwagons in the first place that have so many problems when they spinout

[Michaelhatesfans]

It was Rio. I'll never forget that sound when they showed the replay full speed. :eek: :eek: He said that he actually aimed for BigMo's car to try and slow himself down before he hit. He missed Mo's rear wing by inches.
Beat me to it. I'll never forget hearing that part about aiming for Gugelmin.

[KobySon]

Al Jr. 1999 Broken legs

Dario hit hard at homestead during spring training that year as well.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Wasn't Dario's hit in 2000?

[rabbit]

Wasn't Dario's hit in 2000?
Yes, I remember because he was still recovering emotionally from Greg Moore's crash and then got a small taste of his own mortality.

[Steve99]

I think Blundell also had a big accident at Homestead, in the season before or after the one at Rio. I'd have to check the yearbooks at home.

[Steve99]

It's my understanding that the attenuator is a spec part that's manufactured by Penske's composite operations.

Every time an IRL car crashes, Penske gets some cash.
No wonder he can afford to go racing.

[lone_groover]

I think tha was Joan Blondell doing a guest shot on BONANZA. Her homestead was right next to the PONDEROSA. Hoss was kinda sweet on her, as I recall.....

:)