Low tech it is

[Spicoli]

looks like EARL is goin the grand Am engine route.



Oh boy! :saywhat:

[RTKar]

A common engine?...interesting.....It may help tg encourage GA teams to try the 497.5....could backfire too, no one at the other earl races... :gomer:

[pchall]

looks like EARL is goin the grand Am engine route.

Oh boy! :saywhat:


So much the better. Since none of the Grand Am mills can be used as a stressed member they can also adopt a FE "roadster" set of chassis regs. Also require the teams to build their own tube framed chassis starting with chalk marks on the floor of an old two bay garage somewhere in Indiana.

[Warlock!]

Also require the teams to build their own tube framed chassis starting with chalk marks on the floor of an old two bay garage somewhere in Indiana.
:D

[chop456]

This is actually a great idea towards cost-saving.

If the two series schedule their races on alternating weekends, they could literally share the same engines. Just mail them back and forth. Perhaps a B2B deal with Netflix, even.

[Skater_36]

They'll just pull the bodies off of the GrandAm cars and there is the new IRL formula. ;)

[Andrew Longman]

If that is true and the GA engine can't be used as a stressed member, then he is sending Indy car racing back to 1965. Might as well just put the engine in the front. THAT is the premier open wheel series he started the IRL for because the I500 had to have one?

The stubborness is mind-boggling

[Sean O'Gorman]

What a dumb idea, but what else would you expect from TG? "Hey, if it works for someone else, why not me?" :laugh:

The Grand-Am engines, for those who don't know:


DAYTONA PROTOTYPES
ENGINE ELIGIBILITY AND APPROVAL LIST
As of 4/7/05

The following engines have been approved for competition in Daytona Prototypes.

BMW S62-B50 32 valve 5.0L V-8
Bore: 3.701″ Stroke: 3.502″ Minimum crank weight: 40 lbs
Maximum compression ratio: 11:1
Cylinder heads and intake cannot be ported.
Intake valve: 1.377″ Exhaust valve: 1.200″
Piston, rings, pin and connecting rod: 936 gm minimum
Maximum camshaft lift @ retainer with zero lash: .445″
Maximum cam duration: 250 ° @ .050″ lift
Induction: 8 individual butterflies @ 1.965″
Twin intake air restrictors of 1.875-inch diameter opening into the approved air box.
Must use OEM intake manifold
RPM limit: 6800

FORD 5.0L V8
Bore: 3.705″ Stroke: 3.543″ Minimum crank weight: 38 lbs
Maximum compression ratio: 11:1
Unported OEM cylinder head.
Intake valve: 1.496″ Exhaust valve: 1.260″
Piston, rings, pin and connecting rod: 1100 gm minimum
Maximum camshaft lift @ retainer with zero lash: .498″
Maximum cam duration: 214° @ .050″ lift
Induction: two butterflies @ 2.250″ diameter
RPM limit: 6900

INFINITI 4.35L V8
Cylinder bore: 3.661″ Stroke: 3.149″
Minimum crank weight: 34 lbs
Maximum compression ratio: 11:1
Cylinder head intake runner maximum volume: 196 cc’s
Cylinder head exhaust runner maximum volume: 83 cc’s
Intake valve: 1.424″ Exhaust valve: 1.237″
Piston w/rings, pin and connecting rod: 1000 gm minimum
Maximum camshaft lift @ retainer with zero lash: .492″
Maximum cam duration: 282°in/320°ex degrees @.050″lift
Intake manifold as approved.
Throttle body: Ron’s four hole throttle body w/1.875″ butterflies and 2.5″ inch spacer.
RPM limit: 7700

LEXUS (TRD) 4.3L V8
Bore : 3.545″ Stroke: 3.300″ Minimum crank weight: 38 lbs
Maximum compression ratio: 11:1
Cylinder head intake runner maximum volume: 139 cc’s
Cylinder head exhaust runner maximum volume: 81 cc’s
Intake valve: 1.356″ Exhaust valve: 1.147″
Piston w/rings, pin and connecting rod: 1053 gm minimum
Maximum camshaft lift @ retainer with zero lash: .478″
Maximum cam duration: 260° @.050″ lift
Rons 4 hole throttle body with 1.875″ diameter butterflies.
Intake manifold TRD (as approved)
RPM limit: 8100

PORSCHE 3.99L GT3R Flat 6
Up to 3.99 liter displacement with unlimited components.

PONTIAC 5.0L V8
*Can also be branded as Cadillac or Chevrolet
Standard Bore LS6 engine block: 3.900″ Stroke: 3.185″
Minimum crank weight: 38 lbs
Maximum compression ratio: 11:1
Cylinder heads must be OEM LS6. Intake and exhaust ports cannot be modified.
Cylinder head intake runner maximum volume: 230 cc’s
Cylinder head exhaust runner maximum volume: 87 cc’s
Intake valve: 2.000″ Exhaust valve: 1.550″
Piston w/rings, pin and connecting rod: 1000 gm minimum
May use titanium wrist pin.
Maximum camshaft lift @ retainer with zero lash: .590″
Maximum cam duration: 260° @.050″ lift
Must use with no modifications: OEM LS6 Corvette part number 88894339 intake.
OEM Camaro throttle body with 2.950″ butterfly part number 17113647
Maximum RPM: 7100

[Don Quixote]

So, how many of the current owners will stick around to play? Actually, I thought that TG had already exhausted all possible categories of fans to offend and drive off. Perhaps he has found a few more with this move.

[mueber]

This could be a very good thing for the future of open wheel, fulfilling Boy George’s “vision” of turning the Gomerville 500 into the equivalent of a Late Model feature at the county speedway--perfect.

[Methanolandbrats]

Many years ago I said FTG's leadership would turn the 500 into a vintage event. It's the only possible outcome. This is a big step in that direction. If this is true, when it fails there will be nothing left. Then they'll drag out the many generations of Indy cars, they'll do parade laps and 25,000 fans will munch on trackdogs, buy t-shirts and yammer on about the good ol'days.

[racer2c]

How does this differ from the original stock block config that they started with (when they went with their own cars)? Chevy probably has a warehouse full of the original 4.0 anchors. Throw a new crank in and presto...3.5 stock block Chebby.

[Joe in LA]

The current model requires approved manufacturers who are required to put up a significant amount of money to promote the series. If the same is required under the new rules, it is entirely possible that several of the manufacturers from Grand Am will not play.

[Brickman]

How does this differ from the original stock block config that they started with (when they went with their own cars)? Chevy probably has a warehouse full of the original 4.0 anchors. Throw a new crank in and presto...3.5 stock block Chebby.

This is what Ob-Wan at CW says about it. Hard to find tech gear heads on the subject right now.

"As of 7 April 2005 the following engines were approved for use in Daytona Prototypes:

a) BMW S62-B50 32-valve 5.0-liter V-8 | RPM limit: 6800
b) FORD 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 6900
c) INFINITI 4.35-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7700
d) LEXUS (TRD) 4.3-liter V8 | RPM limit: 8100
e) PORSCHE 3.99-liter GT3R Flat 6
f) PONTIAC* 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7100
*Can also be branded as Cadillac or Chevrolet

For an idea of how suitable these engines would be for use in Indycars it is helpful to know that the current purpose-built 3.0-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 engines used in the league weigh a minimum of 285 lbs (usually less with ballast added to the bottom for a lower C/G) and produce approximately 670 bhp @ 10300 rpm with 341.63 lb/ft torque. For comparison the 2.65-liter turbocharged DOHC 32-valve Cosworth XFE V8 weighs about the same and produces a barely adequate 750 bhp @ 12,000 rpm (800 bhp with PTP) and 328.25 lb/ft torque."- Obi-Wan

[trauma1]

10-1 none of those mentioned, BMW< PORSCHE, lexus, are going to badge a POS earl engine, , FTG only options are menards and mechachrome, You can take it to the bank if it was BMW, porshe or lexus ftg and bagdad bob would have announced it this week, it's not going to be pretty, they have little options, and the BS at crackforum thinking bmw and porsche are going to earl are wet dreams :rofl:

[cameraman]

If that is true and the GA engine can't be used as a stressed member, then he is sending Indy car racing back to 1965.

I could stand to watch Jim Clark drive again.....

http://web.kyoto-inet.or.jp/people/upsett/formula/old2/img/car5201_1.jpg

[pchall]

I could stand to watch Jim Clark drive again.....

What a complete non sequitor in this thread. :shakehead

[rabbit]

What a complete non sequitor in this thread. :shakehead
:laugh:

[sundaydriver2]

Looks like Mario A knew what was happening with the Earl engine situation and was trying to convince KK to throw the Idiotgrandson a bone.


If the Earl really announces this GA engine package, it's game, set, and match to KK.

:rofl: :thumbup:

[racer2c]

This is what Ob-Wan at CW says about it. Hard to find tech gear heads on the subject right now.

"As of 7 April 2005 the following engines were approved for use in Daytona Prototypes:

a) BMW S62-B50 32-valve 5.0-liter V-8 | RPM limit: 6800
b) FORD 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 6900
c) INFINITI 4.35-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7700
d) LEXUS (TRD) 4.3-liter V8 | RPM limit: 8100
e) PORSCHE 3.99-liter GT3R Flat 6
f) PONTIAC* 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7100
*Can also be branded as Cadillac or Chevrolet

For an idea of how suitable these engines would be for use in Indycars it is helpful to know that the current purpose-built 3.0-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 engines used in the league weigh a minimum of 285 lbs (usually less with ballast added to the bottom for a lower C/G) and produce approximately 670 bhp @ 10300 rpm with 341.63 lb/ft torque. For comparison the 2.65-liter turbocharged DOHC 32-valve Cosworth XFE V8 weighs about the same and produces a barely adequate 750 bhp @ 12,000 rpm (800 bhp with PTP) and 328.25 lb/ft torque."- Obi-Wan

...and this tells us what? :confused:

[nrc]

10-1 none of those mentioned, BMW< PORSCHE, lexus, are going to badge a POS earl engine,

Nope, the "pay to participate" scheme that TG had with Chevy, Toyota and Honda isn't going to happen. If it were then spec engines wouldn't even be a consideration.

Right now it probably comes down to whether he can get more benefit from a single spec engine with sponsor (ala' Champ car with Ford/Cosworth) or a bunch of stock block suppliers who might provide contingency awards and a bit of advertising support.

The days of big engine contracts that supply big sponsors are drawing to a close. It will be interesting to see what happens to the various "super teams" as a result.

[trauma1]

that's why his last resort is menard and mechachrome :rofl:

[FCYTravis]

If they use the Menards Grand Am engine, their cars will be slower than Atlantics :rofl:

[Racing Truth]

10-1 none of those mentioned, BMW< PORSCHE, lexus, are going to badge a POS earl engine, , FTG only options are menards and mechachrome, You can take it to the bank if it was BMW, porshe or lexus ftg and bagdad bob would have announced it this week, it's not going to be pretty, they have little options, and the BS at crackforum thinking bmw and porsche are going to earl are wet dreams :rofl:

I think it all depends on the specific specs are. Now, if they are BASED on Grand-Am sprcs, with important mods needed (as I suspect), you may be right. But if it basically is the GA spec, then I can't imagine why a few mftrs wouldn't supply the same engines to the IRL. I mean, why not?

Ultimately, it would depend on how close the specs are.

Still, could this be behind-the-scenes maneuvering? You know, TG saying to KK "I don't HAVE to work with you." Both sides would want leverage, I suspect.

BTW: Hypocrisy it is, but if they can come up with a cost-effective, yet fast spec, I wouldn't be totally opposed.

[Racing Truth]

If they use the Menards Grand Am engine, their cars will be slower than Atlantics :rofl:

Not to mention the fact that they'd all blow up. :laugh:

[Spicoli]

I've given this alot of thought, and it really does make sense if you are FTG. you KNOW that manufacturers are not coming to your series, so why not dumb it down, cheapen it up, and make it reall F'in easy for anybody who wants to make a go of it at Indy.

Basically, you would have all the original gomer teams, most of CCWS would cross over, and god knows who else would show up.

$100-150K FOR A MOTOR, SOME PARTS AND A CHASSIS - CRAP 500K COULD GET YOU A MONTH OF MAY????? :confused:

Looking at how he got in this bind anyway, if FYoda & FHomoco couldn't breath life into this POS series, who can? Especially with the crappy ROI.

It accomplishes a full field at Indy, and that's about all he ever cared about. Even tthough they will be FLYING DEATHMACHINES WITH THE ASTHETICS OF A CAN OPENER ON STEROIDS.

:gomer:

So, in essense, he's succeeded without succeding?! :rofl:

[dando]

I've given this alot of thought, and it really does make sense if you are FTG. you KNOW that manufacturers are not coming to your series, so why not dumb it down, cheapen it up, and make it reall F'in easy for anybody who wants to make a go of it at Indy.

Basically, you would have all the original gomer teams, most of CCWS would cross over, and god knows who else would show up.

$100-150K FOR A MOTOR, SOME PARTS AND A CHASSIS - CRAP 500K COULD GET YOU A MONTH OF MAY?????

Looking at how he got in this bind anyway, if FYoda & FHomoco couldn't breath life into this POS series, who can? Especially with the crappy ROI.

It accomplishes a full field at Indy, and that's about all he ever cared about. Even tthough they will be FLYING DEATHMACHINES WITH THE ASTHETICS OF A CAN OPENER ON STEROIDS.



So, in essense, he's succeeded without succeding?!

@ the end of the day, it prolly came down to this (the green pill) or Kosworth/CCWS (the red pill), and FTG would prolly have committed hari-kari than swallow the red pill. Ya can't build a series out of this, but ya might be able to keep Indy going out of curiosity. @ least The Greatest Spectacle in Racing will ring true again. :shakehead :gomer: :flame:

Thanks for fixing OW, FTG!!! :flame:

-Kevin

[NismoZ]

OK, so they are rev-limited and air restricted, now. By easing up some in both areas wouldn't they be able to make the present 650hp?...and a lot more cheaply? New tubs for '07 as well, that could solve the "stressed member" problem. You are correct, it's taking us back a ways. more like 1981, not 1965, but what if 6 mfgrs. can get some ad mileage out of an Indy win ('cause that's all they'll worry about), that really IS bang for the buck. I don't see any other alternative for the boy wonder and he'll gamble on this LONG before running Cosworths or looking like he's squirming for a compromise of some sort. Packs of loud V-8s lapping the IMS at 210-215 is not too horrible for a lot of people to imagine.

[cameraman]

Whatever he does he needs to make it possible for 40+ cars to show up in May.
That is what makes his show different from the other generic ovals.
They would have to be around the cost of a DP to do that.

[Ozarkian]

So where's Studebaker?

I'll bet Tony's wondering why they haven't returned his calls, either.

[Ankf00]

where's Natural Selection when you need it?

[NismoZ]

Keep makin' the jokes...he's gonna DO it! Top teams will get factory support with cash, special parts, technical info, etc. (under the table for awhile, if need be) because THEY want to win Indy, and the cycle starts all over again. But it sure buys him time...Ford's direction will be the most interesting to watch, then Pontiac. Yes, "bang for the buck" it is, dumbing down for only a slight loss in HP and MPH is a lot easier to sell than stratospheric costs to see unobtanium parts reach 230 again. Remember, the idiot is actually DEALING with idiots when trying to figure out what will actually sell...who's going to remember an Aurora? Line up for your earplugs here! Max Papis and Scott Pruett at Indy!

[Methanolandbrats]

The most cost effective solution would be to Sawzall the fenders off DP Prototypes and just run em. Open air and open wheel :thumbup:

[Jag_Warrior]

This is what Ob-Wan at CW says about it. Hard to find tech gear heads on the subject right now.

"As of 7 April 2005 the following engines were approved for use in Daytona Prototypes:

a) BMW S62-B50 32-valve 5.0-liter V-8 | RPM limit: 6800
b) FORD 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 6900
c) INFINITI 4.35-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7700
d) LEXUS (TRD) 4.3-liter V8 | RPM limit: 8100
e) PORSCHE 3.99-liter GT3R Flat 6
f) PONTIAC* 5.0-liter V8 | RPM limit: 7100
*Can also be branded as Cadillac or Chevrolet

For an idea of how suitable these engines would be for use in Indycars it is helpful to know that the current purpose-built 3.0-liter DOHC 32-valve V8 engines used in the league weigh a minimum of 285 lbs (usually less with ballast added to the bottom for a lower C/G) and produce approximately 670 bhp @ 10300 rpm with 341.63 lb/ft torque. For comparison the 2.65-liter turbocharged DOHC 32-valve Cosworth XFE V8 weighs about the same and produces a barely adequate 750 bhp @ 12,000 rpm (800 bhp with PTP) and 328.25 lb/ft torque."- Obi-Wan



According to Christian Fittipaldi:

On the differences between a Daytona Prototype and a Champ Car:

"This car has a roof, unlike my Champ Car; that's one of the biggest
differences. Just the power-to-weight ratio is a big difference. A Champ Car is 1,500 pounds and about 750 horsepower; a Daytona Prototype is about 2,500 pounds and has about 500 horsepower."

I keep asking and no one comments... where are the extra ponies going to come from? Sure, you can develop anything to produce more hp. But where is the money going to come from? The easy fix would be a turbo addition, but then there'd be that annoying comparison to Champ Cars (CART III on the way?).

Personally, I don't have anything against the basic concept of Grand Am's engine formula (though since I'm not paying for any of it, I could give a $#!^). I'd kinda like to see CCWS go to something similar with a turbo and beat the IRL to the punch. That would allow Cossie to develop and build for Ford and others, and allow some other builders and mfg.'s in CCWS. And to be honest, some variety would spice things up a bit.

[Sean O'Gorman]

"This car has a roof, unlike my Champ Car; that's one of the biggest
differences. Just the power-to-weight ratio is a big difference. A Champ Car is 1,500 pounds and about 750 horsepower; a Daytona Prototype is about 2,500 pounds and has about 500 horsepower."

That guy must be an engineer's dream when it comes to feedback. :rolleyes:

[L1P1]

Keep makin' the jokes...he's gonna DO it! Top teams will get factory support with cash, special parts, technical info, etc. (under the table for awhile, if need be) because THEY want to win Indy, and the cycle starts all over again.

I've always thought this and this weekend I saw a good potential example. Watching a GA Cup race, they were mentioning that teammates were complaining that a certain Brown Mustang was a second a lap slower than the White one. They didn't know why. Same setup, same manufacture, same jigs,....same everything.

A Penske/(your engine mfgr of choice) solution would be to build 10, test 'em all and sell the slowest six chassis and slowest six engines to wankers and keep the combinations of the four fast ones.

However, I do like the idea of sharing engine formulas - as long as they're good ones. Can anyone sum up the Grand Am formula? Why does it appear that Porsche is basically penalized a full liter?

[pchall]

Can anyone sum up the Grand Am formula? Why does it appear that Porsche is basically penalized a full liter?

The 4.0l flat six was used as the baseline engine for all the spec work done on the other possible units from other manufacturers. Every 5.0l and 6.0l engine is just being lazy pumping out the same kind of horsepower. The mystery remains why the Porsche unit was chosen instead of a unit with a configuration similar to the other engines being spec'd and limited?

[Brickman]

I don't think the deal will work.

I'll stick with a spec engine lease deal like Champ Car, or some NASCARish version.

The spec engine works because it lowers the costs the most. Another bandaid for another open wheel series. I just don't see open wheel attracting any real sponsors as long as the split continues. The "yen" teet was bad for both series, spec bandaids aren't great. The thing that can attract manufacturers, balanced with a return on .5 ratings. So what if they just provide parts only. Such a minimal amount should equal the return on investment.

[JoeBob]

Having manufacturers gives the illusion of viability. When the Grand Am rules were first announced, a big stink was made by the manufacturers about their names being used without their permission. Among other things, they changed how cars were identified. Chassis manufacturer had always come first ( Lola-Ford, Reynard-Honda, etc.) Grand Am identifies their cars by engine manufacturer first - making it appear as if the car is a model made by that manufacturer. (Porsche Fabcar, Pontiac Crawford, Pontiac Riley, Lexus Riley, etc.)

Porsche, in particular didn't like it. The rules also require the engine manufacturer name across the top of the windshield in a pretty big font - teams with Porsche engines were not allowed to use the Porsche logo for that. They had to have the word "Porsche" in some other font. (And still do)

Porsche also didn't like the rule requiring production headlights be used - the early Daytona Prototypes that were "Powered by Porsche" also had tape over the headlights - so they looked less "Porsche-like:"

http://www.grand-am.com/CONTENT/Photos/Gallery/2003/03champRS500-14.jpg

Will the IRL have the same pseudo manufacturer involvement?

[FCYTravis]

The first year of the DPs was probably the fugliest season in sports-car racing history.

No Chevies here ;)

[stroker]

Let's try looking at this from the other way around... Rather than saying, "Jeez, this might lower costs enough to make it feasible for teams to join the .1RL", why not ask it this way: "Given the ratings/ROI of the .1RL and the trends for the last five years, how much money would any sane sponsor pay a team? Given that level of sponsorship $X, what car/engine can you run?"

Personally, I think that pretty soon $X isn't going to be enough to run a Hobby Stock at the local dirt 1/4 mile, so the whole GA engine discussion may be moot.

I can't say I care much what engine FTG chooses. I'm going to be much more interested in whether they continue the current spec chassis for the GA engine (with the necessary added subframe, etc) or whether they'll come up with a whole new chassis spec for them.

I have to believe that running the new Silver Crown cars will be a whole bunch cheaper than adopting GA engines...

[oddlycalm]

Just when you though it couldn't get any lamer... I can see it now, a field of bog slow, fatassed, uglymobiles with barn door wings droning around at the speed of snore. Why not mandate skinny hard tires and drum brakes as well... :laugh: The crapwagons of today will look positively brilliant by comparison.

Using engines that can't be employed as a stressed member and that have 500hp output is a huge step down, even for crapwagons. This takes away any possible arguement of major series status. The weight of a chassis will rise substantially, power will decline by at least 20%. The current Atlantics would be able to smoke them. :shakehead

oc

[oddlycalm]

Remember, the idiot is actually DEALING with idiots when trying to figure out what will actually sell... Should sell about as well as Grand Am. From what little I've seen those races barely have family members in attendence. I don't want to burst your bubble, but I've never noticed a large latent market for low performance road race series where the pace car is capable of lapping the field... :laugh:

Fact is, when I talk to the folks that race locally as well as the folks that attend track days, most don't even follow US racing anymore out of disgust. They remember the 1000hp GTP cars and 950hp champ cars. Many of their track cars make more power that a Grand Am car does. Geez, even some bone stock street cars make as much power. The BMW M5 and M6 coming later this year will both have a 510hp V10 with a 7spd sequential.

You may say so what, but the people driving those cars are often business owners that would have had hospitality tents and hosted customers at races in past years, but not anymore.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

Let's try looking at this from the other way around... Rather than saying, "Jeez, this might lower costs enough to make it feasible for teams to join the .1RL", why not ask it this way: "Given the ratings/ROI of the .1RL and the trends for the last five years, how much money would any sane sponsor pay a team? Given that level of sponsorship $X, what car/engine can you run?"

Personally, I think that pretty soon $X isn't going to be enough to run a Hobby Stock at the local dirt 1/4 mile, so the whole GA engine discussion may be moot.

I can't say I care much what engine FTG chooses. I'm going to be much more interested in whether they continue the current spec chassis for the GA engine (with the necessary added subframe, etc) or whether they'll come up with a whole new chassis spec for them.

I have to believe that running the new Silver Crown cars will be a whole bunch cheaper than adopting GA engines...

I'd love to see a proper market analysis of ROI (B school students out there looking for a thesis topic?) but I suspect you are just about right.

The race to the bottom to find a cost/return formula that works only cheapens the diminishing Indy brand to the point that it returns about as much as putting a car out at Willow Grove.

[Methanolandbrats]

Should sell about as well as Grand Am. From what little I've seen those races barely have family members in attendence. I don't want to burst your bubble, but I've never noticed a large latent market for low performance road race series where the pace car is capable of lapping the field... :laugh:

Fact is, when I talk to the folks that race locally as well as the folks that attend track days, most don't even follow US racing anymore out of disgust. They remember the 1000hp GTP cars and 950hp champ cars. Many of their track cars make more power that a Grand Am car does. Geez, even some bone stock street cars make as much power. The BMW M5 and M6 coming later this year will both have a 510hp V10 with a 7spd sequential.

You may say so what, but the people driving those cars are often business owners that would have had hospitality tents and hosted customers at races in past years, but not anymore.

ocWhat a great post :thumbup:

[DagoFast]

I have to believe that running the new Silver Crown cars will be a whole bunch cheaper than adopting GA engines...


You and me both! Here to 33 Silver Crowns Cars! :thumbup:

Gomers and me, both hoping for the same thing? Strange times. :rofl:

[FCYTravis]

Using engines that can't be employed as a stressed member and that have 500hp output is a huge step down, even for crapwagons.
I very much doubt that they are preparing to go with "exact" Grand Am specifications... 525hp seems way, WAY too low even for Formula Tony George. What I believe this formula is going to be is Grand Am-STYLE specifications - stock-block motors, open builders, etc. My guess is that the specific build rules will be much more liberal, to the 600-plus range. That won't be at all difficult to reach... take the air restrictor and rev limiter off the current GA-spec and you're probably pretty close already.

[FCYTravis]

They remember the 1000hp GTP cars and 950hp champ cars.
They also remember the days before NASCAR owned racing and before Champ Car had to resort to the Specford Device to avoid having a grid measured in single digits.

I'd love to see those days come back. They aren't going to anytime soon.

[stroker]

I very much doubt that they are preparing to go with "exact" Grand Am specifications... 525hp seems way, WAY too low even for Formula Tony George. What I believe this formula is going to be is Grand Am-STYLE specifications - stock-block motors, open builders, etc. My guess is that the specific build rules will be much more liberal, to the 600-plus range. That won't be at all difficult to reach... take the air restrictor and rev limiter off the current GA-spec and you're probably pretty close already.

to say nothing of the changes necessary to adapt them to oval applications, like the oiling system...

funny thing, isn't it--if FTG went with fuel-injected all-aluminum big block V-8s producing Godzilla-like torque, his cars would simultaneously be more interesting and precisely the wrong formula for his intended purpose... Now those cars at St. Pete might actually put on a show!

[Brickman]

Let's try looking at this from the other way around... Rather than saying, "Jeez, this might lower costs enough to make it feasible for teams to join the .1RL", why not ask it this way: "Given the ratings/ROI of the .1RL and the trends for the last five years, how much money would any sane sponsor pay a team? Given that level of sponsorship $X, what car/engine can you run?"



No series ratings except NASCAR and F-1 warrant much investment. I sometimes really think that they will adopt something that really drastically lowers the cost so that the winnings/purses he puts up with profit fron the BY400 pays the essential bills. Cheap chassis, cheap engines.

[Sean O'Gorman]

You may say so what, but the people driving those cars are often business owners that would have had hospitality tents and hosted customers at races in past years, but not anymore.

So why did those people drop their involvement in the first place? Surely they enjoyed spending all that money sponsoring a 7th place prototype that had no chance of finishing within 3 laps of the leader?

[Skater_36]

I very much doubt that they are preparing to go with "exact" Grand Am specifications... 525hp seems way, WAY too low even for Formula Tony George. What I believe this formula is going to be is Grand Am-STYLE specifications - stock-block motors, open builders, etc. My guess is that the specific build rules will be much more liberal, to the 600-plus range. That won't be at all difficult to reach... take the air restrictor and rev limiter off the current GA-spec and you're probably pretty close already.

I agree, essentially a purpose built "stock block" formula much like the early days of the IRL.

[oddlycalm]

So why did those people drop their involvement in the first place? Surely they enjoyed spending all that money sponsoring a 7th place prototype that had no chance of finishing within 3 laps of the leader? Read more carefully grasshopper, I never posted that they were sponsors, but rather that they were the ones buying blocks of tickets and hospitality chalets. Once roadracing stopped being of any compelling interest, those with money to spend simply spent it elsewhere and continue to do so.

In answer to you larger question, the fans with money didn't leave, IMSA and CART left them. I still see the folks that used to have corporate chalets at various track days and SCCA events. They didn't move to Tiera del Fuego, they were just deserted by the racing series that were mismanaged into a brick wall.

The rule of thumb in business is that it costs 4x more marketing dollars to get new customers as it does to retain existing customers. That assumes the product is worth buying in the first place. The the case of Grand Am or the EARL, it's simply too dumbed down. Once you get too close to equipment people can go out and buy and race themselves, what interest is there going to be in watching others? This is why World Challenge touring cars and Star Mazda are support series, not premier events.

Returning Indy to a modern version of the junk formula of the 1930's is the best news a competitive series could get.

oc

[lone_groover]

Look for a new teaser on the front page of A*1:

SERIES' LOOKING TO RACE IN TIERRA DEL FUEGO?

:saywhat:

[oddlycalm]

They also remember the days before NASCAR owned racing and before Champ Car had to resort to the Specford Device to avoid having a grid measured in single digits.

I'd love to see those days come back. They aren't going to anytime soon. Neither are the former fans. Getting back to the attendence numbers and TV ratings of the early 90's seems about as likely as TG doing something reasonable.

oc

[FCYTravis]

Neither are the former fans. Getting back to the attendence numbers and TV ratings of the early 90's seems about as likely as TG doing something reasonable.
Yup. :(

Thanks, Tony. :flame: