View Full Version : Honda Talking with KK
Seabass sayeth:
Linky (http://www.comcast.net/sports/motorsports/index.jsp?cat=AUTORACING&fn=/2005/05/27/143330.html)
I post this just to point out to some that both sides need this (merge), not just IRL. Champ Car, IMHO, is indeed in a better spot than TG, but let's not fool ourselves: All is not well.
I'm sure Seabass is wrong...
"The amount of money we're spending is very little overall and I can afford to run this thing forever."
I'm sure Seabass knows more about the series finances than the owner.
So no, Champ car evidently doesn't feel that they "need" a merger. Certainly the sport as a whole would be better off with one series under competent managment But I see no evidence that Tony George is willing to accept anything less than control.
Since Tony George claims that the differences are philosophical why not simply agree to disagree. Shake hands, agree on common equipment, stop scheduling conflicts and poaching dates and let the market determine who's vision is right?
The answer is simple. Tony George is an incompetent boob. He has no vision for open wheel racing outside the fact that he should control it. Without being able to use the Indy 500 as leverage his series would evaporate as quickly as USAC in the 80s.
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 08:06 PM
Noone said they are totally wrong, but their argument is that they are leaving their traditional base behind for the great unknown in the far east.
If they want to be successful here in America some of the best Road Courses have to be on the schduel. But sadly noone shows up to them. they need to figure out why.
I think this sums up my thoughts just about perfectly.
It isn't like I'm saying that Champ Car needs to expand to traditional North American road courses, just that they should return to them, because they were once successful. My feeling is that despite the poor promotion by RA, MO, etc. the attendance problem lies more on Champ Car's shoulders than anything else.
fourrunner
05-28-05, 08:11 PM
Sebastian should probably just say "No Comment" to these queries from Reporters ... I figure he probably just says whats "agreeable" to avoid the follow up to " Hell No, we shouldn't merge with this idiot" ... He's being the "Good Guest" in "foreign Territory". I don't think he's as clever with words as Paul Tracy is!
I also don't think he really thinks about it that much!
I think this sums up my thoughts just about perfectly.
It isn't like I'm saying that Champ Car needs to expand to traditional North American road courses, just that they should return to them, because they were once successful. My feeling is that despite the poor promotion by RA, MO, etc. the attendance problem lies more on Champ Car's shoulders than anything else.
Yup
Racing Truth
05-28-05, 08:47 PM
Sebastian should probably just say "No Comment" to these queries from Reporters ... I figure he probably just says whats "agreeable" to avoid the follow up to " Hell No, we shouldn't merge with this idiot" ... He's being the "Good Guest" in "foreign Territory". I don't think he's as clever with words as Paul Tracy is!
I also don't think he really thinks about it that much!
Prolly right about not answering these questions, but this isn't the first time he's said this, more like the third I think.
nrc: I agree Champ Car could SURVIVE w/o a merger, but it would really, really help.
I think this sums up my thoughts just about perfectly.
It isn't like I'm saying that Champ Car needs to expand to traditional North American road courses, just that they should return to them, because they were once successful. My feeling is that despite the poor promotion by RA, MO, etc. the attendance problem lies more on Champ Car's shoulders than anything else.
Okay. Let's assume you are correct. (I know the concept is HUGE, but work with me here, K?) :D
Assuming that the attendance problem is Champ Car's fault (which I don't get, honestly), what does SeanO do to solve this problem? Or do you just toss cubic dollars at an empty venue until you get pissed off and quit?
So let me get this straight. Boring races are going to attract more fans and sponsors than entertaining races?
If NASCAR started slowly moving their races overseas to street races and all that was left in the U.S. were a few boring venues like New Hampshire and Las Vegas, do you think teh fan base would be the same size?
Why is a foriegn race boring? The toronto race is great. Montreal too. I thought the last race in Mexico was awesome. Which bored you?
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 10:17 PM
Why is a foriegn race boring? The toronto race is great. Montreal too. I thought the last race in Mexico was awesome. Which bored you?
Those are North American races, I never said there was a problem with that, although I do hate Monterrey. For crying out loud, there are corners on that track where it is literally impossible to have two cars side by side, even on a pace lap!
Remember too, that it is easier to sell the product on TV when it is aired live in a regular time frame. I think it is too hard to sell races when they are aired at 3 AM, or next day, whehter it is an overseas race or a race like Milwaukee or Cleveland that were aired tape delay last year.
Okay. Let's assume you are correct. (I know the concept is HUGE, but work with me here, K?) :D
Assuming that the attendance problem is Champ Car's fault (which I don't get, honestly), what does SeanO do to solve this problem? Or do you just toss cubic dollars at an empty venue until you get pissed off and quit?
You already asked me what I'd do to fix things last summer and I answered it then, and you said:
Gotta give you an A SeanO. <you woulda got the "+", but I need to hold something back.> ;)
...
In sum, ya done good Sean, so you get a free pass to be a gomer from me.
Search is your friend. :D
Obviously the problem isn't something that can be fixed in one year or two years, despite what KK and GF think. Even if they can restore profitability, it is still an obscure series with low car counts, with too many holes in its schedule, a small and irrelevent ladder system, and with driver talent depth that is nowhere near what it should be. And that bugs me. You may be ok with it and I have no problem with that, but I'm expressing my opinion based on what I want to see.
I insist that you have to rebuild the series from the ground up, which would involve:
-focusing on North America
-designing a relevent ladder which a bottom rung that potential fans can identify with. Part of this would involve connecting Champ Car to indoor karting, because if the fans realize that karting is where all the drivers come up from, they'll feel like they can identify with the guys on track. Obviously racing doesn't have the luxury of being a sport that anyone can partipate in like baseball or basketball, but any little bit to close the gap could help.
-consistant TV package, something that requires the series schedule to be based around one continent
-tracks that fans want to see. You can argue against the declining attendence at the ovals and natural road courses, but you can't argue that they provide for the best racing and that is what brings in the fans. I think the product has slipped (though it has picked up dramatically since '02) and that is why the fans disappeared. A street race can be 3000 miles away or it can be 30 feet away, if it isn't interesting, people wont watch. They have to work on something that pleases more than just us hardcores, but without compromising the "purity" of the sport.
And that is about all I got, I think I'm sounding like a broken record again. ;)
devilmaster
05-28-05, 11:01 PM
And that is about all I got, I think I'm sounding like a broken record again. ;)
Once again, i've listened to this broken record.
Here is your problem. Your points are valid, but without doing other things to ensure profitability in the series, you are throwing good money at bad planning.
This series needs to be profitable first, before you finish the work that you described. Because the sponsors will not come back immediately. The fans will not come back immediately. But, i will submit, the money has to come in immediately.
Push hard to make the series profitable. Go where the money is. It that means beijing, then so be it. Put CC in the black. It hasn't been there in years, and I believe TG's league has never been there. A profitable series has more options and more money to do the things you have said needs to be done.
I've now written a version of this post for the umpteenth time to respond to you. Don't come up with silly questions on my post, Sean. A) I know yer smarter than that, and B) do your own searches.
The main problem with your vision is that it would take too much time to see a profit from your plan, if you see a profit at all. It will take alot of work and time to get the fans and excitement back to the natural road courses. You have a better chance of being sucessful if you have a profitable company to cover the extra costs of building that track back up.
fourrunner
05-28-05, 11:15 PM
Devilmaster .. well said
We are in year 2 of a five year plan
KK is on target, and I'm sure that the purchase of Cosworth & LB were unexpected Bonuses
I'm figuring that KK & GF as Billionaires, and KK as a Turn Around expert, might just have this thing figured out !
It's a treat to see how Smart guys spend their money, after watching a Fool do it for 10 years!
Sean O'Gorman
05-28-05, 11:20 PM
The main problem with your vision is that it would take too much time to see a profit from your plan, if you see a profit at all. It will take alot of work and time to get the fans and excitement back to the natural road courses. You have a better chance of being sucessful if you have a profitable company to cover the extra costs of building that track back up.
Well, look at it this way. Remember way back in grade school when you had to do the math problem where you had to choose between getting $1,000 a day for a month, or getting $0.01 on the first day, and getting double on each successive day? I guess it is like that. It may take longer, but if Kalkhoven can keep writing checks "forever" as he said last month, then it would be worth it.
I dunno, I guess I've said all I have to say, and so have you. Fun stuff to speculate about but obviously it isn't going to make a difference in one actually does happen.
I know what you are saying but it doesn't mean anything re my comments. Honda has a right to put its racing money where it pleases. I have a right to put my purchase dollars where I please. I have a 40 ft diesel motorhome - I'd like to tow a van - the only van that can tow four down is a Honda. No way will I buy one.
I'm delighted to see that Honda quality is slipping. It didn't make the top 5 on the JD Power list recently. I wish it only bad luck in the IRL and F1. Hope both engines blow Sunday morning.
If they want to have someone like Clarke speak for them, fine. My point still is that they are gettin ZILCH in sales for supporting the IRL and by doing so they are losing some sales -maybe not many, but they are losing some. If they dropped out of the IRL I doubt it would have any downward impact on their sales at all - it might even increase them with some on our side then prepared to buy Honda products.
The only problem with the money they are wasting is that it is letting the IRL hang around longer than it otherwise would.
Shadow - I appreciate your comments, however, here in the US, Honda has set a new yearly sales record for the last 9 consecutive years. Acura sales are equally as strong, and combined they've gone from almost 700,00 sales a year to over 1.2 million last year, just in the USA....Yeah, they have added new segments and new vehicles (Odyssey, Pilot, ELEMENT, Ridgeline, S2000, etc.) in that time, but the fact of the matter is, if you are not a passionate fan of OW racing in the US, it appears that you arent going to see Clarke's "stupid comments" and realize what "the Split" has done to the OW racing scene in North America.
The general public doesnt follow the politics of open wheel racing in America. They do know what the Indy 500 represents, or at least what is used to mean.... and if Honda wins again, what does it do for them ?
Does it sell them more cars ? they seem to be doin' just fine with or without it
And after the month of May, what does it get them? Nuthin'... see ratings and attendance.
Do they realize any ROI on their $100 million budget ? Nope...
Are they aware of the 1.0 rating and >30k butts in the seats at races ? Yup.
Clarke's comments re: CCWS are arrogant to say the least. But he has quite a track record of speaking out of both sides of his mouth, and it is embarrasing that he is "The voice" of American Honda for issues of the split and other potentially volitile matters with respect to re-unification.
Dood is a loose cannon and someone at Honda needs to shut this guy up, because his soundbites and quotes are fodder for both sides of the fence. He says whatever makes whoever happy at the time he opens his mouth. :shakehead
Believe me when I say that there are not alot of people at American Honda who share his views on the split, or the type of series that Honda has chosen to participate in... The folks I know in California followed CART, and never wanted to be in the EARL, with the exception of the Indy 500.... The whole Scott Goodyear "pace car" deal and the "Rahal can't qualify" with Honda power really left a mark.... Tom Elliott's recent retirement didnt help much, and he was a supporter of CART. And since HPD recently moved into a GIANT new building, and they have to produce some ROI.... Clarke is in charge HPD and that should be the end of his role..... certainly not "spokesman"......
Noone said they are totally wrong, but their argument is that they are leaving their traditional base behind for the great unknown in the far east.
If they want to be successful here in America some of the best Road Courses have to be on the schduel. But sadly noone shows up to them. they need to figure out why.
The answer to that is easy - they are too bloody inconvenient. Sure, The Toronto Molson Indy SHOULD be at Mosport. Would it get even half the attendance - not likely. Most tracks like Watkins Glen, Mosport, Mid-Ohio, RA, require a significant commute for locals, do not have a lot of hotels/motels to handle overnight stays, and in many cases lack facilities on site. I went to the USGP in 1968 - 104,000 attended on a cold fall day. Why did F1 drop The Glen - it just could not provide what F1 needed. To my amazement The Glen does well with the August NASCAR race but that has different requirements than the F1 group I guess. Even Laguna Seca has to be a PITA for fans in SF to get to - they sure haven't been coming out or that race would have survived.
Believe me, I'd prefer the good road courses, but from a business point of view (survival) they were not providing the revenue CART/CC needs to survive. In Australia I'd much prefer to see CC at Bathurst for example, or Albert Park in Melbourne - or even the Adelaide street course would, IMO, be a better layout and more conducive to racing than Surfers - but Surfers does have the resort climate and it sure is not short of hotels and motels.
Well, look at it this way. Remember way back in grade school when you had to do the math problem where you had to choose between getting $1,000 a day for a month, or getting $0.01 on the first day, and getting double on each successive day? I guess it is like that. It may take longer, but if Kalkhoven can keep writing checks "forever" as he said last month, then it would be worth it.He said that he could keep writing checks forever at the rate that he's going now. If he were losing money on Laguna and Road America, who knows? But yeah, what's a million here and a million there when you're not paying.
Like DM said. A lot of what you're saying is a good idea. In fact, a lot of it was already happening before Tony tossed open wheel racing in the crapper.
coolhand
05-29-05, 12:09 AM
Do any of you think CC can revert to where CART was in the early 80s and build up from there?
I mean how did it build up those audiences in Laguna and RA in the first place?
fourrunner
05-29-05, 12:36 AM
Do any of you think CC can revert to where CART was in the early 80s and build up from there?
I mean how did it build up those audiences in Laguna and RA in the first place?
Coolhand ... I'll TRY and answer that since my "geezer factor" puts me back in that time
I think that once CART started it became a more sophisticated version of what preceded it, USAC ... More organized and with a High Profile Co- Founder in Roger Penske ... Plus at that time Open Wheel Racing was catching on to the TV audience because of Drivers like Meers, Andretti, & yes, even AJ Foyt ..
NASCAR was there, but certainly not at the level it is today, so that competition didn't exist ...
Except for Indy, USAC was a messy affair , and drivers would pop in and out of races, because they were more, drivers for hire than bound to one team by contract ... Plus you were still coming out of the Era where guys like AJ Foyt owned the car they drive, and they'd fix them themselves. Plus Guys like Mario & AJ would Race in other forms of Racing throughout the year, so crossover fans were there to
Races were only on Wide World of Sports and only a few, not every race ...
So when CART was formed , after a few years, the Series gets a TV contract, and eventually every race in the series has Multi Camera Broadcasts, and you could follow the series after Indy ( Although Indy was still aligned with USAC, and wasn't a points paying Race in CART) and watch your favorite drivers the rest of the year.
It was a new toy for TV to fill hours of available time .. No competition from Cable or Satellite in the beginning to .. Just ABC, CBS, and NBC ... No Fox, no ESPN, No SPEED ...
Captive audiences looking for something new!
I know I'm just scratching the surface ... but it's start ... hopefully others can add or subtract from this!
Can it revert back to what it was in the 80's ... Maybe ... Thats why I'm hoping the fresh version of Open wheel that KK & GF are presenting will catch on!
Everything in life has cycles... NASCAR is riding high right now ... Champ Car is on the lower edge ... but people are fickle, and NASCAR will eventually see a downtrend ... maybe that could benefit Champ Car
coolhand
05-29-05, 01:06 AM
thanks for the post forrunner.
i remeber reading a year end issue in the sports section of the USA today.
and the guy wrote 25 things he wished to see change in the sports world.
and one of them was a alternative racing series that could rivial NASCAR. It hink there is an audience out there who would like to see a strong alternative on the auto racing scene.
The big problem is the mass of people who hate nascar believe all autoracing is like that. I forced my friends to watch Long Beach and Montreal last year. Besides one of them making fun of the name "Allmendinger" for 3 days they seemed to enjoy it.
coolhand
05-29-05, 04:04 AM
The big problem is the mass of people who hate nascar believe all autoracing is like that. I forced my friends to watch Long Beach and Montreal last year. Besides one of them making fun of the name "Allmendinger" for 3 days they seemed to enjoy it.
i know people who never heard of the concept of a stree curcuit.
i know people who never heard of the concept of a stree curcuit.
Well, to be honest, I've never heard of a "stree curcuit" either.
:gomer:
"How did it build up all of those audiences at Laguna and RA?"...Forgive me, 4-run, if I over simplify... but we were already there! Can-Am, IMSA, Trans Am, F-5000, big-time ROAD RACING. Those were the fans who supported CART from the start, especially at the road courses. Even Mario had to prove himself, he was considered a "roundy-rounder" but we went nuts for guys like Gurney and Donohue...then later for Rahal, Sullivan, Brabham and Holbert, and of course Mario who earned respect by, oh, becoming World Champ! Heck, even the fans from The Mile didn't come to RA in very big numbers. Different crowd. The old USAC fans wouldn't come. Don't remember camping with too many guys from Trenton or Langhorn. Too old and fat. Outhouses and picnic tables didn't suit them. When Penske moved up and over, Mario returned full-time, and a few other "things" happened, CART was appealing to a fan base that was already well established. Penske and Gurney knew exactly what they were doing. We've been around a long time and we have not taken the loss of RA, MO, or LS lightly...even though we KNOW they were losing big money. Reality can really suck sometimes!
coolhand
05-29-05, 11:14 PM
"How did it build up all of those audiences at Laguna and RA?"...Forgive me, 4-run, if I over simplify... but we were already there! Can-Am, IMSA, Trans Am, F-5000, big-time ROAD RACING. Those were the fans who supported CART from the start, especially at the road courses. Even Mario had to prove himself, he was considered a "roundy-rounder" but we went nuts for guys like Gurney and Donohue...then later for Rahal, Sullivan, Brabham and Holbert, and of course Mario who earned respect by, oh, becoming World Champ! Heck, even the fans from The Mile didn't come to RA in very big numbers. Different crowd. The old USAC fans wouldn't come. Don't remember camping with too many guys from Trenton or Langhorn. Too old and fat. Outhouses and picnic tables didn't suit them. When Penske moved up and over, Mario returned full-time, and a few other "things" happened, CART was appealing to a fan base that was already well established. Penske and Gurney knew exactly what they were doing. We've been around a long time and we have not taken the loss of RA, MO, or LS lightly...even though we KNOW they were losing big money. Reality can really suck sometimes!
thanks for the post, that made alot of sense
SurfaceUnits
05-30-05, 12:38 PM
edited for new thread
Sorry, I haven't read all 122 posts on this, but couldn't Honda be talking to KK as the owner of cosworth Engineering to do all he could to keep producing engines for Chevrolet so Honda could justify it's stay in the IRL? Chevy HAS to be pleased with the Cosworth effort and as KK has said, wouldn't it "be good for business."? Any rumors of a change of heart at GM?
Jervis Tetch 1
05-30-05, 02:58 PM
It took this long for Honda to realize they were wrong?
No, I think they just feel the need to adjust in a "fluid situation."
coolhand
05-30-05, 04:06 PM
Sorry, I haven't read all 122 posts on this, but couldn't Honda be talking to KK as the owner of cosworth Engineering to do all he could to keep producing engines for Chevrolet so Honda could justify it's stay in the IRL? Chevy HAS to be pleased with the Cosworth effort and as KK has said, wouldn't it "be good for business."? Any rumors of a change of heart at GM?
Not after tony lied to them about being in Long Beach.
You dont lie to the big three in Detriot. No American car companies will deal with TG agian.
no joke
We are in year 2 of a five year plan
Deja vu
Deja vuWhat's your point?
Are you suggesting that the new management should be able to change everything overnight?
Or perhap's you're referring to Tony George's five year plan to be bigger than Formula One and NASCAR.
"How did it build up all of those audiences at Laguna and RA?"...Forgive me, 4-run, if I over simplify... but we were already there! Can-Am, IMSA, Trans Am, F-5000, big-time ROAD RACING. Those were the fans who supported CART from the start, especially at the road courses. Even Mario had to prove himself, he was considered a "roundy-rounder" but we went nuts for guys like Gurney and Donohue...then later for Rahal, Sullivan, Brabham and Holbert, and of course Mario who earned respect by, oh, becoming World Champ! Heck, even the fans from The Mile didn't come to RA in very big numbers. Different crowd. The old USAC fans wouldn't come. Don't remember camping with too many guys from Trenton or Langhorn. Too old and fat. Outhouses and picnic tables didn't suit them. When Penske moved up and over, Mario returned full-time, and a few other "things" happened, CART was appealing to a fan base that was already well established. Penske and Gurney knew exactly what they were doing. We've been around a long time and we have not taken the loss of RA, MO, or LS lightly...even though we KNOW they were losing big money. Reality can really suck sometimes!
You nailed it....I can only speak about RA, but was a road race fan first(USRRC in '66) and became a big fan of open wheel racing because of F5000 and then CART in '82.....and only missed one Cart/Champcar race at RA.
The loss of ChampCar at RA and decrease in overall attendance started when RA did away with general admission race day tickets($30 or so) and went to ticket price structure that included paddock access($60 or so).
This was done to increase RA's revenues and decrease costs(less security checking for access passes)....I for one would rather save some money on a ticket and spend the savings on adult beverages.....but thats me
I guess my point is that maybe its not the product,or where the product is sold, but the cost of the product or the marketing or marketability of the product.
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