First Penske, Then Mario, Now FTG!?

[NismoZ]

:eek: Indy Star this morning says FTG hisself finally says one series is the answer. KK says "Tony Gearge has my phone number." Think CC getting LB wasn't big? :D

[Methanolandbrats]

:eek: Indy Star this morning says FTG hisself finally says one series is the answer. KK says "Tony Gearge has my phone number." Think CC getting LB wasn't big? :D FTG is a very, very slow learner, I think he just realised the IRL is not going to turn a profit :rofl: and he wants a way out.

[Michaelhatesfans]

Tony isn't smart or humble enough to figure it out on his own. Someone behind the scenes has finally bitch slapped some sense into him, or at least threatened to pull the rug out from under him. Just a couple of weeks ago Tony's response was, "Why should we talk to them? They don't have anything of value to offer us." The next couple of months could be interesting. :cool:

[Cam]

Ballard has a clue..... I think he is trying to do a RM..... If it was Cave-In.... Now that would be a hint that the gomerati finally have it.... :p

[NismoZ]

Well, it ain't exactly a cave (yet) but it's way bigger than mere cracks. He can't rely on Honda, Toyota, OR F-1 anymore, and unless he's prepared to make the Allstate 400 the Indy 500 then his only move is to do SOMEthing that might repair a serious self-inflicted wound.

[trauma1]

defender has lost it, :rofl:

Defender
Media Insider

Registered: Nov 2000
Location: The fields I used to roam
Posts: 9402

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Short Chute
I hope you don't mind, but I forwarded your post to Tony so that he would no longer talk about such irresponsible nonsense and get past it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Why not instead send it to irresponsible, unoriginal, lazy columnists like Ballard who continuously toss the same nonsense into the faces of IRL leadership instead of actually formulating an original thought from time to time? That might more effectively deal with this issue.

[Andrew Longman]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050524/SPORTS01/505240439/1052

In ten years I've never heard such a tone from TG or his crew. How quickly they shifted from arrogance to desparation.

Let's see. What would be the negotiation points.

Lose the flying crapwagons. Adopt the spec built chassis being developed by Champcar. It will be lower cost and produce better (actual) racing.

Adopt a tightly matched turbo engine formula that manufactures can participate in. Keep the system that the series owns the engines and leases them to the teams. Split the engines equally among the teams. This, and having Cosworth in their pocket will keep the manufactures in check, control their costs and give them more predictable ROI for supporting the series.

For the 500 (or any other race that swells the field beyond normal) the series will make an engine available up to a set limit (say 40 for the 500)

Add Indy, California or Michigan, St Pete and perhaps three decent domestic ovals to the CCWS schedule. Watkins Glen too, if it turns out to be a decent turnout this year and it can be proven safe for an OW car.

TG gets to be in charge of his race and he can keep his quirky traditions because with many more than the best 33 cars and drivers entered it will actually mean something. Make the I500 a two week event at most though.

And because I am feeling generous, let TG buy 1/3 of KK, GF and PG's shares of CCWS so he feels he has a place at the table. Besides, KK et al deserve a little direct return on their investment. Let's just hope TG starts learning faster with the benefit of some close KK tutoring.

THAT would quickly start to turn the tide of open wheel racing towards being a highly desirable product for sponsors, promoters, teams and drivers with a clear distinction from NASCAR and F1.

Anything less and I will likely not be happy. But what does the IRL have that would cause CCWS to take less?

[dando]

The drummbeat of bad news and stench coming out of Mordor is unmistakable this May. KK & co. first win C^RT's assets, then Kozworth, and now LBGP over FTG's minions. With the exit of GM and Toyo soon to follow, they jig is up. FTG can use all the spin he wants, but even Baghdad Bob got his. :cool:

FTG!

-Kevin

[cart7]

http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20050524/SPORTS01/505240439/1052

In ten years I've never heard such a tone from TG or his crew. How quickly they shifted from arrogance to desparation.

Let's see. What would be the negotiation points.

Lose the flying crapwagons. Adopt the spec built chassis being developed by Champcar. It will be lower cost and produce better (actual) racing.

Adopt a tightly matched turbo engine formula that manufactures can participate in. Keep the system that the series owns the engines and leases them to the teams. Split the engines equally among the teams. This, and having Cosworth in their pocket will keep the manufactures in check, control their costs and give them more predictable ROI for supporting the series.

For the 500 (or any other race that swells the field beyond normal) the series will make an engine available up to a set limit (say 40 for the 500)

Add Indy, California or Michigan, St Pete and perhaps three decent domestic ovals to the CCWS schedule. Watkins Glen too, if it turns out to be a decent turnout this year and it can be proven safe for an OW car.

TG gets to be in charge of his race and he can keep his quirky traditions because with many more than the best 33 cars and drivers entered it will actually mean something. Make the I500 a two week event at most though.

And because I am feeling generous, let TG buy 1/3 of KK, GF and PG's shares of CCWS so he feels he has a place at the table. Besides, KK et al deserve a little direct return on their investment. Let's just hope TG starts learning faster with the benefit of some close KK tutoring.

THAT would quickly start to turn the tide of open wheel racing towards being a highly desirable product for sponsors, promoters, teams and drivers with a clear distinction from NASCAR and F1.

Anything less and I will likely not be happy. But what does the IRL have that would cause CCWS to take less?


I would leave the next gen specs open for debate till we decide which races from each series we're going to keep. One things for sure, most of the ex-Cart crossovers kept their old equipment so it's much easier to integrate from that standpoint rather than trying to get CCWS teams to buy the flying cars.

[devilmaster]

An open letter to KK&GF from me.

Don't talk reconcilliation. Everyone knows FTG has more money than brains. Personally, I don't trust him. As long as he is still somehow involved, nothing stops him from having another temper tantrum and shutting Champcar out again.

If TG is truly starting to feel the pinch and realize what his actions have done to Indy, my humble opinion and recommendation to you: let him destroy himself.

You saw value in a Champcar series without Indy, so stay the course.

[TravelGal]

>>>>And because I am feeling generous, let TG buy 1/3 of KK, GF and PG's shares of CCWS so he feels he has a place at the table. Besides, KK et al deserve a little direct return on their investment. Let's just hope TG starts learning faster with the benefit of some close KK tutoring.

Please don't be so generous. Why should we reward this moron by letting him buy into something that will make him money? Also, 1/3 is way too much for a minority stockholder IMHO.

Yes, folks, the worm has turned. I, for one, hope the rest of the five year plan includes stonewalling TG for a while to watch him swing in the wind and then the outright purchase of whatever he has left. (You know what I mean.) Given what we've seen so far, that's not so far-fetched.

[oddlycalm]

A lot of factors got us to this point. The acquisition of Cosworth and the LBGP were huge though. My guess is that the tipping point was a result of the unanimous voices from the big team owners, sponsors, the press and the business owners in the city of Indianapolis. Fragile egos like TG's need a lot of suckups to feel secure, and when he had to face negative reactions and scorn day in and day out I imagine it was too much for him.

Anybody care to speculate how much pressure Mercedes buying up the remaining shares of Ilmor has put on Honda to bring them to the table? IMO, getting rid of the uneven and destabilizing money that the manufacturers brought should be high on the list of objectives. A series with a few haves and a lot of have nots isn't going to be interesting.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

>>>>And because I am feeling generous, let TG buy 1/3 of KK, GF and PG's shares of CCWS so he feels he has a place at the table. Besides, KK et al deserve a little direct return on their investment. Let's just hope TG starts learning faster with the benefit of some close KK tutoring.

Please don't be so generous. Why should we reward this moron by letting him buy into something that will make him money? Also, 1/3 is way too much for a minority stockholder IMHO.

Yes, folks, the worm has turned. I, for one, hope the rest of the five year plan includes stonewalling TG for a while to watch him swing in the wind and then the outright purchase of whatever he has left. (You know what I mean.) Given what we've seen so far, that's not so far-fetched.


I'm in no hurry to settle. TG should be. Make him wait.

But for the sake of sponsors and teams, having the 06 schedule out and a clear direction set by July would be best.

And I screwed up my math. Give TG 1/4 total ownership at most. Just enough to make him feel important, not enough to give any real control, but enough so that KK and GF get something back for the risk they took. But I would concede any ownership only as a means to facilitate getting the unification done.

[RacinM3]

TG's role needs to be reduced to that of track owner and race promoter, for his event only, but with a voting seat on Champ Car's board. Keeps him in the minority while still having some say in the series that runs on his track. If he wants change, let him play the political game where he actually has to convince others to share his views.

Really, this is what by rights should have happened in 1995, when his race had tremendous value. With it's reduced stature, offering him this would be a VERY generous gesture on Champ Car's end.

That's the reality of what needs to happen.

[Methanolandbrats]

FTG does'nt deserve a stake of anything. He can be the "President of the Indy 500" or some other ceremonial track owner title. No decision making power whatsoever. During May he gets to swing his dick around on the IMS grounds, but once the checkered flag falls, he goes back in his cage. He has to sign a longterm contract allowing Champcar to run at IMS with Champcar spec equipment. That would be a good starting point for a merger.

[mueber]

What devilmaster said, that's what I say.

I don't want a surrender, I don't want to rub his nose in it, I don't want to "win." I want Boy George, and the Gomerville 500 gone. It's the only hope for a successful long-term future for open wheel.

[FRANKY]

What devilmaster said, that's what I say.

I don't want a surrender, I don't want to rub his nose in it, I don't want to "win." I want Boy George, and the Gomerville 500 gone. It's the only hope for a successful long-term future for open wheel.

Without the Indy 500 open wheel simply has no chance in the U.S.

I'm not sure how you figure that we need to not have it to be successful?

[RichK]

Without the Indy 500 open wheel simply has no chance in the U.S.



bs

[devilmaster]

bs

exactly. The reasoning I have why it can be sucessful, is simple and in front of our noses. GF, KK and PG bought the champcar world series and continued the series.

I don't claim to know the lay of the land as well as them or some of our own posters here. But re-unification wasn't on the radar when they went into the bankruptcy hearings. They saw a value in this series, without an indy 500. They felt they can turn a profit without an indy 500. So why can't OW survive without Indy?

[pchall]

... Anything less and I will likely not be happy. But what does the IRL have that would cause CCWS to take less?

Complete capitulation by Tony George followed by ritual suicide in the Pagoda with Fred and Brian and Joie seems like a good outcome from my perspective.

[G.]

And because I am feeling generous, let TG buy 1/3 of KK, GF and PG's shares of CCWS so he feels he has a place at the table.
Let FTG be in control of the new bathrooms at RA, when KK and crew purchase that. :gomer:

waitaminute. He's screw that up too.

FTG!

[extramundane]

Complete capitulation by Tony George followed by ritual suicide in the Pagoda with Fred and Brian and Joie seems like a good outcome from my perspective.

Naw, not suicide. Just make him give up the family fortune and get a job. If he can pass the drug test, that is.

[KLang]

An open letter to KK&GF from me.

Don't talk reconcilliation. Everyone knows FTG has more money than brains. Personally, I don't trust him. As long as he is still somehow involved, nothing stops him from having another temper tantrum and shutting Champcar out again.

If TG is truly starting to feel the pinch and realize what his actions have done to Indy, my humble opinion and recommendation to you: let him destroy himself.

You saw value in a Champcar series without Indy, so stay the course.

Please sign my name to this as well. :thumbup:

[IlliniRacer]

defender has lost it, :rofl:

...and in other shocking news ....The earth is round ;) :gomer:

[FRANKY]

bs

So you think if the Indy 500 becomes a NASCAR race, all the IRL venues fall off the map, that Champ Car can carry the torch and open wheel will survive? I just don't see it. There just isn't enough interest.

[RichK]

There's not any interest in Indy, either, and I don't see any interest (like 15.0 Nielsen) coming back.

I do, however, believe that a slow rebuilding, over 5 or more years, of a high-level American-based but international road racing/street racing/oval racing series will be successful. Indy would be nice to add, not not necessary IMO.

[Lola_B70]

The 499 already has been replaced by the brickyard' race.

Before TG mucked it up, CART was carrying the torch.

Yes, interest has fallen (ty, split) but, Champcar is still here and running
races with increasing attendance etc.

Franky, are you asking if the Champcar can support the US alone without
the earl? I should say so.

The nation doesn't need the earl. It will have Champcar and i am sure all will be just fine.

[trauma1]

...and in other shocking news ....The earth is round ;) :gomer:
i believe he's being started on meds today, it will not help him, Wilkie is spewing the usual Kk slander on $$$, what morons

[oddlycalm]

Any unification would need to take into consideration what KK indicated was the single CART asset that mattered; the fan base. The real danger here is alienation of both the champcar and EARL fan base (such as it is) resulting in a series nobody has any interest in.

I can easily see this happening as neither CCWS or the EARL has a series model that comes anywhere close to where I would like to see the racing go. From what I've seen here, I'm not alone. Eight ovals interspersed with eight street races and two natural terrain road courses is just about as far as one could get from where I'd like to see things go. Spec cars with lower power would be the turd on the cake, total snoozeville. I can see the problem on the opposite side as well. The braindead droolers that are eggcited by the EARL's 200mph concrete crashfest are entirely unlikely to spend any time watching street races. Both series remain afflicted with an absurd number of needless full course yellows, something that seems to be peculiar to US racing. :thumdown: Bottom line, getting TG to step back is only the first step in traversing the minefield, and making Mario and Capt Liverspots happy doesn't automatically translate into making any of us happy.

oc

[devilmaster]

So you think if the Indy 500 becomes a NASCAR race, all the IRL venues fall off the map, that Champ Car can carry the torch and open wheel will survive? I just don't see it. There just isn't enough interest.

First off, you can't just make the Indy 500 a nascar race. There is too much in the way for it to happen. I would assume the indy 500 would remain on the memorial day, and if so, I'm sure that would start a war between bruton smith and the frances. (and remember, these guys don't get along all the best anyways.)

About the second part, (and i'm truly not trying to sound like a smartass) but when I look at the track records of KK and GF, their records for owning and running businesses, and for what i stated before, that they saw value in a series without an indy, and what I see them doing with Champcar, i will believe in their business acumen more than your posts on an internet forum. sorry.

[nrc]

I don't think KK & GF would have bought Champ car if they weren't confident that it could survive and eventually thrive without Indy.

That said, the value of open wheel racing in North America would be greatly enhanced for everyone if there were one series that raced at Indy, Long Beach, Mexico City, Toronto, and Cleveland.

But KK and GF shouldn't budge an inch from whatever they counter-proposed last year when Penske tried to broker a deal.

[DjDrOmusic]

I'm not saying I know anything, but after a conversation I had with one of my clients, I think Momma is tired of watching her son cook the golden goose until it's burned beyond recognition. Things are going to be very interesting, I think, very soon.

[Andrew Longman]

So long as there is a race at Indy in May people will speculate about competing American OW series running there. Its a fact. So kill it or join it.

KK looked at CART and corrected the flaws in their business plan that made it unsustainable over time. Chief among those are dependencies on assets out of the series' control and influence and aligning team revenues with costs. Correcting those same flaws put CCWS in a position of strengths. TG could always wait out CART. Now KK can wait out TG, forever if need be.

But did KK, GF and PG always think the series would be better off with Indy? They had to and PG even said so early on until he went suddenly silent.

At the risk of sounding too much like Defender, its still a pretty big race in the US and being associated with it will distinguish a series from ARGP, GP2, or any other OW series. Even if TG ran the thing deeper in to the ground than he has and sold it off for 2c on the $, some smart promoter could do a lot working off the history of the place.

Combining the fan base is another matter I hadn't thought about. But my sense is that there most IRL fans are really Indy fans. There are also CART haters; Folks that don't like street races and foreign drivers they never heard of. But the IRL has shown that those folks are not going to grow in numbers or pay for a seat just because you run in circles. Those fans mostly moved to NASCAR anyway.

But they can be replaced by having a well known ladder system and yes a few more American and/or well known drivers. And it means putting on compelling races and well attended and fun events. But they have to do all that anyway, regardless of a merger.

[coolhand]

Any unification would need to take into consideration what KK indicated was the single CART asset that mattered; the fan base. The real danger here is alienation of both the champcar and EARL fan base (such as it is) resulting in a series nobody has any interest in.

I can easily see this happening as neither CCWS or the EARL has a series model that comes anywhere close to where I would like to see the racing go. From what I've seen here, I'm not alone. Eight ovals interspersed with eight street races and two natural terrain road courses is just about as far as one could get from where I'd like to see things go. Spec cars with lower power would be the turd on the cake, total snoozeville. I can see the problem on the opposite side as well. The braindead droolers that are eggcited by the EARL's 200mph concrete crashfest are entirely unlikely to spend any time watching street races. Both series remain afflicted with an absurd number of needless full course yellows, something that seems to be peculiar to US racing. :thumdown: Bottom line, getting TG to step back is only the first step in traversing the minefield, and making Mario and Capt Liverspots happy doesn't automatically translate into making any of us happy.

oc


Great points.

what needs to be done is a similar scheduel balace as was seen in CART in the 1990s.

The most important thing is not to create some lame cheap formula. The biggest marketing and artractive thing about racing is the cars. if the cop out on us there then they will loose alot fo their fan base.

[JLMannin]

TG's role needs to be reduced to that of track owner and race promoter, for his event only, but with a voting seat on Champ Car's board. Keeps him in the minority while still having some say in the series that runs on his track.

What say does TG have in NASCAR or F1? Those series run on his track, too. I like Travelgal's suggestion of letting him (and his track) twist in the wind and become even more insignificant and worthless, then buy what is left.

[FTG]

I'm not saying I know anything, but after a conversation I had with one of my clients, I think Momma is tired of watching her son cook the golden goose until it's burned beyond recognition. Things are going to be very interesting, I think, very soon.

This is the key issue. I doubt TG has changed. Has the family? And if the family is just looking for $$$$ then selling out makes the most sense. Of course, the track is worth more to ISC. But like I said, if the family is interested in sticking around, I don't see how a merger can work.

[Andrew Longman]

What say does TG have in NASCAR or F1? Those series run on his track, too. I like Travelgal's suggestion of letting him (and his track) twist in the wind and become even more insignificant and worthless, then buy what is left.

It would be nice to make the I500 part of the series, if they are going to do it at all, while anyone outside of hooterville still gives a hoot. Even more so, if this is going to happen anyway, it would be nice to have it done by July when they want to announce next year's schedule and start lining up sponsors, teams, etc. for next year and beyond (granted nothing is likely possible before 07, but lingering questions need to be answered for good).

To that end, if stroking TG ego in some largely symbolic and meaningless way helps get it done, then get it done.

But agree, there aren't any real legit reasons why TG's proven "leadership" has earned him anything more than a role as a track promoter. But on the other hand, given his track record KK might also be wise to make sure this pain in the butt has skin in the game lest he do something else stupid.

[devilmaster]

The problem with all this talk about merging and the like is twofold.

1) Nobody who has had a hand in this whole mess from the beginning, has given any thought about the betterment of open wheel in this country. Nobody. So why should fans now believe anyone in control when they say merging is best for OW?

2) Any type of a 'merger' will have to include TG as a partner or something along those lines. Are we so forgetful of what transpired in the mid 90's? It was TG's wanting all control and his 'I won't allow anyone to dictate terms to the greatest racing track blah blah blah' crap that made him to start the IRL in the first place. We've seen how he has run IMS into the ground since he became president. Why would anyone want to work with him now?!? For some pipe dream about how it used to be in the 80's and 90's??? It will take decades for the damage this split has caused to even come anywhere near healing, if it heals at all. If by some miracle they came back together as one, it will take great leadership to work towards healing the damage and building a new series to try and challenge the 300 pound gorilla which is Nascar. Does anyone (other than hardcore :gomer: :gomer: ) think mumbles has that leadership?

My biggest question i keep asking is : If there was some sort of merger - what stops dickweed from trying to control everything again - and/or starting another league when he doesn't get what he wants?!?

My vote - don't bother with mergers. Let him do his own thing. He's more damage to himself, his league and IMS than any competing series is.

[Lizzerd]

The only merger I will be satisfied with is the complete death of the irl. The Villiage Idiot can have his track, but that's all.

Consider that before 1996, "Race Promoter for the Indy 500" was a pretty cush job, if it even existed. The dang thing sold itself out a week after the previous one. No promotion necessary. Now, the dummies have to do all the crazy crap they do to try to be able to say it's gonna be another sell-out this year. Fat chance that's gonna happen.

[fourrunner]

The fact of the matter is that INDY does NOT matter anymore ...we've had 10 years of Indy being a shadow of itself ... The future is for the young ... The Young have NOT seen an Indy 500 of any significance ... The Young have not grasped the supposed "Hot" new drivers of the IRL ... The only people that show up are the "Traditionalists" the Older Fans, the Fans hanging on to the Past

Indy is not necessary anymore ... Champ Car is following the right path ... New and Exciting ... Mixing the Racing with the Festival ... Technically complicated without being to much so! Talented & exciting young drivers with a future !

Positive Committed ownership.. putting up the money for success, and adding what is necessary to make it work

The IRL would just be an Albatross around the neck ... Tony George is not likely to co-operate, he'll make life difficult whether he's 50 / 50 ownership or only 25

I have not cared about Indy for Ten years , after a lifetime of not missing it, and arranging my Month of May around it ... If Indy dissapeared, I wouldn't miss it for a moment!

[Ankf00]

This fire is out of control
I'm going to burn this city
Burn this city

BURN!!!!

:gomer:

[fourrunner]

This fire is out of control
I'm going to burn this city
Burn this city

BURN!!!!

:gomer:

I have matches.... or would you prefer a Bic ! ;)

[Andrew Longman]

The fact of the matter is that INDY does NOT matter anymore ...we've had 10 years of Indy being a shadow of itself ... The future is for the young ... The Young have NOT seen an Indy 500 of any significance ... The Young have not grasped the supposed "Hot" new drivers of the IRL ... The only people that show up are the "Traditionalists" the Older Fans, the Fans hanging on to the Past

Indy is not necessary anymore ... Champ Car is following the right path ... New and Exciting ... Mixing the Racing with the Festival ... Technically complicated without being to much so! Talented & exciting young drivers with a future !

Positive Committed ownership.. putting up the money for success, and adding what is necessary to make it work

The IRL would just be an Albatross around the neck ... Tony George is not likely to co-operate, he'll make life difficult whether he's 50 / 50 ownership or only 25

I have not cared about Indy for Ten years , after a lifetime of not missing it, and arranging my Month of May around it ... If Indy dissapeared, I wouldn't miss it for a moment!

I'm nearly with you, just not quite.

If Indy would surely die, I'd be there. But i fear it will limp along on life support forever and forever be the distraction it has been.

So I say take it in with as little of the IRL and TG as possible (and my read is it won't need be much, nor should it for all the reasons you say CCWS has it right). Do it as quickly as possible to get this crap over, but not so quick that we have to take an ounce more TG crap than necessary.

I look forward to the new CCWS. They clearly have it right. And if KK can breath new life into Indy I won't be as bitter about all those Mays of my youth seeming antique and irrelevant.

[dando]

This fire is out of control
I'm going to burn this city
Burn this city

BURN!!!!

:gomer:
I was thinking more like the lyrics of Burn Baby Burn or Disco Inferno (Burn the mother down!). :flame:

-Kevin

[dando]

If I were King:

1. Fix the schedule....must have more races in while the NA audience is captive (winter).

2. Fix the FCYs....PLEASE!!!

3. Fix the chassis issues w/aero...even playing field for engine mfgs, with restrictions on funding, etc. (assuming other mfgs will be involved).

4. Unify if only necessary...Indy as we knew it is dead, and there just ain't much worthwhile other than MoNtegi or St. Pete (ONLY IF Fonda is involved - no thx).

5. FTG always!

-Kevin
:swinging my hammer with each post: :flame: :mad:

[fourrunner]

I'm nearly with you, just not quite.

If Indy would surely die, I'd be there. But i fear it will limp along on life support forever and forever be the distraction it has been.

So I say take it in with as little of the IRL and TG as possible (and my read is it won't need be much, nor should it for all the reasons you say CCWS has it right). Do it as quickly as possible to get this crap over, but not so quick that we have to take an ounce more TG crap than necessary.

I look forward to the new CCWS. They clearly have it right. And if KK can breath new life into Indy I won't be as bitter about all those Mays of my youth seeming antique and irrelevant.

I'm pragmatic, and can go with the flow

The 500 limping along as it is is not an appetizing option, and it will just remind everyone of "The Split" and what it caused.. people will forget with time (usually short) and the baggage will be in the past

I was talking to my 24 year old Godson recently about Pop Culture and Celebrity .. "Beyond the Sea" had just come out, and I told him about Bobby Darin ... He NEVER heard of him ... I understood but it shocked me that what matters to our age group is irrelevent to the Young

Out of site out of mind ... When we watched Indy, there were only 4 or 5 Chanels ... Now there are hundreds and Tradition can get lost in the fog, especially when it's not that great anymore, and the Hoopla is Manufactured.

So is it even worth rehabbing Indy ... it's on life support, and damaged .. It will Never be like it was ! Time to move on! Sadly

It's like Plastic Surgery on Joan Rivers ... Sure it's still Joan, but the patch job looks hideous, and contrived, and in retrospect was a huge mistake!

[Andrew Longman]

Runner

In the right hands I could see Indy coming back. It will take clever marketing and a lot smarter management of the series. More cars will make for actual drama. More cars require that teams and the series offer valuable marketing possibilities for sponsors and that the economics be in line with the opportunities.

I also see hints that people are tiring of NASCAR. Not predicting the immediate collapse of NASCAR, just that there are elements that may be looking for something more.

Somewhere in the CCWS brand they should find a way to attract hip, cool, techno savvy young people with truly "modern" racing. But witness the success of the mini-Cooper. Young people may also go for something more genuine, more throwback, that the contrived, low brow crap that is NASCAR.

I also think that making CCWS a worldwide series could generate interest in Indy beyond the US. This could make it a far bigger thing than Daytona and return it to IMS biggest race. Like many businesses in the Midwest, IMS need to learn to export and be a global business it is going to survive. The gomers won't like it anymore than they liked the French buying RCA, but it will have to happen.

[fourrunner]

Andrew

You are probably right about Indy Coming Back, but as you said "In the right hands", unless Tony steps into the Back ground, and lets someone else do it, it's fate is sealed

Everything he changed to revive it this year fell flat ... first round bumping was insulting to the fans ... Promoting a driver with No experience ( Danica) is just pandering to the "Heavy breathing" crowd .... AJ Bumping Arie Jr. was pathetic ( though I was concerned that Arie was in over his head) AJ can't run a one car team correctly no less three ...

So yes, given the right direction, Indy could be revived, but it may be a long shot

I just see Tony as being a big problem in a merger !

[DagoFast]

Yes, folks, the worm has turned. I, for one, hope the rest of the five year plan includes stonewalling TG for a while to watch him swing in the wind and then the outright purchase of whatever he has left. (You know what I mean.) Given what we've seen so far, that's not so far-fetched.

You and Devilmaster are right on the money!




Anybody care to speculate how much pressure Mercedes buying up the remaining shares of Ilmor has put on Honda to bring them to the table?

oc

Um, considering the rumor in Monaco had them trying to hire Mario Ilien, I'd say they are pretty desperate! :D

[ChampCar#3]

If Indy dissapeared, I wouldn't miss it for a moment!


If?......I think it's been gone for 10 years! and no one noticed!

[Bob_S.]

An open letter to KK&GF from me.

Don't talk reconcilliation. Everyone knows FTG has more money than brains. Personally, I don't trust him. As long as he is still somehow involved, nothing stops him from having another temper tantrum and shutting Champcar out again.

If TG is truly starting to feel the pinch and realize what his actions have done to Indy, my humble opinion and recommendation to you: let him destroy himself.

You saw value in a Champcar series without Indy, so stay the course.

....and in case you happpen to find Tony's neck under your foot, step down hard! :cool:
Its like dealing with any addict, there's no point in believing them until you're sure they've truelly hit rock bottom.

[Gary]

Indy is not dead, in spite of what the idiot grandson as done to it. (a testament to it's greatness?) It IS a shadow of it's former self, but it has nothing to do with the track. It still has great potential, in the right hands. Consider this;

- It still draws more attendance and TV share that any ChampCar race. If ChampCar returns on their own terms, the exposure to our series could not be bought at any price. The buzz created by the "Return of ChampCars" storyline will generate tons of media exposure, and more new sponser money than KK & GF will know what to do with.

- It is an awsome track, attested to by virtually all race drivers, a big, flat oval with 4 sharp corners.

- Young hot-shoes don't race there because of the cars they run and the ******** series that runs them, not the race itself. Given the chance to run REAL race cars there at the place, they'll be lining up.

- It's an endurance race. We don't have any of those at the moment.

Given the business acumen and execution of the current ChampCar owners, just try to imagine what they could do with an event like the Indy 500? Look at their successes, then extrapolate the application of the same business plan to this event. The death of the IRL, the return of ChampCars (under the continued management of the three Amigos) to the Indy race, and the resulting exposure, will do more to increase attendance to all our races that anything else I can imagine.

If you don't like Indy, fine, I have no problem with that. ChampCar CAN survive without Indy. But with Indy , and the current ChampCar management, our series has the potential to soar in popularity.

These Three Amigos are quite something. Just try to imagine where our series would be today if they had been in charge in 1994?

But I feel that none of this can come about, and the series truely thrive, unless:

1. FTG is completely out of the picture.
2. ChampCar controls (at least) the ECU and the Pop-Off.

And finally, Mario Andretti (or someone of his stature) and one or two BIG sponsors have to FINALLY get some wood and stand up to say that the emporer has no clothes.

[Racing Truth]

Without the Indy 500 open wheel simply has no chance in the U.S.

I'm not sure how you figure that we need to not have it to be successful?

I wouldn't go that far, but w/o Indianapolis, I have no friggin clue what you use to build on in the short-term.

[cart7]

I wouldn't go that far, but w/o Indianapolis, I have no friggin clue what you use to build on in the short-term.

Why what else? Street race events in foreign countries that force me to stay up to 1:30AM in the morning to watch. :rolleyes:

CCWS's roots are Cart and Cart was a North American racing series, NOT a pacific rim street/road racing series. If I wanted to watch that I'd just as soon tune into F1.

[Racing Truth]

Why what else? Street race events in foreign countries that force me to stay up to 1:30AM in the morning to watch. :rolleyes:

CCWS's roots are Cart and Cart was a North American racing series, NOT a pacific rim street/road racing series. If I wanted to watch that I'd just as soon tune into F1.

I'm sure Beijing will be a springboard to imminent greatness. :gomer:

To everyone else, in the larger picture, what else does this sport have going for it in order to build?

What, make Long Beach the big event? LB must be a vital part of any united series, but seriously, selling a series (EDIT: In North America) with a street race as its big event is a Quixotic dream not at all based in reality.

The goal: A strong series withe 20-25 strong events. Why Indy can't be one of those escapes me.