07 Engine Spec.

[Andrew Longman]

Latest issue of Racer has a bit more details on the engine spec, but it also has a quote from Tony Cicale that says a spec chassis is now a must but it is desirable and workable to have engine manufacturer participation. The idea being there is a marketing ROI possible for a manufacturer that is not there for a chassis builder.

But how to do that without letting them "soil the apartment"?

I buried this in another thread but combined with Honda's current brokering and a rumor over at TF (FWIW) that Honda is testing a 2.65 turbo as we speak, I thought it deserved its own thread.

Please try a response other than FHonda. We all understand that.

With Cosworth (presumably with Ford badging) always in CCWS' pocket, they never have to worry about being left in the cold. My thought is have CCWS continue to own the engines and lease them to the teams. If another manufacturer wants to come in, they can only sell the engines to the series and the field is split equally among however manufacturers there are.

Manufacturers should like it because they don't have to go nuts trying to bid for teams. If the spec is tight enough they can avoid an arms race with other competitors. Cost should be much lower and better predicted.

If the venues are diverse enough no one engine should dominate them all. Manufacturers, as in NASCAR, would reasonably know at the start of the season that they will get their fair share of wins/points and positive marketing. I would not like it but with a turbo spec, worst case, a manufacturer that was out front of the others could have some boost removed, just as NASCAR takes some spoiler out now and again. That's crap, but it seems to work.

CCWS can put together a tidy but robust marketing product for the manufacturers that makes it very clear what there return is in terms of exposures, avenues, etc. CCWS would get proper revenue but it would go to the series, not the team directly ensuring a level playing field, coordinated growth, and fair funding for everybody.

CCWS could also require that the manufacturers participate in ad buys and other promotional programs, but this should be made part of a compelling package coordinated to support the CCWS brand, not something they have to hold their nose an do just to participate.

Thoughts?

[nrc]

I think Champ car has discovered the key to controlling costs entirely out of necessity. The series owns the engines, the manufacturers provide rebuilds at a set cost. Engines are pooled and the manufacturer has no control over who gets what engines. Engines are required to last 1200 miles. Any manufacturer points scored with an engine that expires early are forfeit.

[G.]

If another manufacturer wants to come in, they can only sell the engines to the series and the field is split equally among however manufacturers there are.

Thoughts?This is a great concept, but in order for it to work, we would need cash-paying $pon$ors. Think about where the earl would be without yenbucks. Think, 1996.

We need a way to keep the manufacturer's on the sidelines, but have well-funded teams.

I don't know how we would do that.

(note the use of the word "we". Dammit! It's MY series!)

[cameraman]

Any manufacturer points scored with an engine that expires early are forfeit.

Harsh.....

[Andrew Longman]

This is a great concept, but in order for it to work, we would need cash-paying $pon$ors. Think about where the earl would be without yenbucks. Think, 1996.

We need a way to keep the manufacturer's on the sidelines, but have well-funded teams.

I don't know how we would do that.

(note the use of the word "we". Dammit! It's MY series!)

I wasn't clear.

Any manufacturer that comes in sells the engines to CCWS for a set price, plus set rebuilds. CCWS leases them to teams.

The second part of the deal is that manufacturers participate in (i.e., pay for)a valuable packaged sponsor program that is developed by CCWS consistent with the brand they want to advance.

That could include ad buys on broadcasts and in print, agreements with drivers and teams for appearances, co-marketing with other series sponsors, B2B possibilities, merchandising, etc. It would be put together by CCWS in collaboration with the manufacturers, but basically its a package that says, "pay this much, get this in return, here's what its worth".

It manufacturers want to go beyond the package for higher value teams (i.e., they have more marketing value), fine. That creates a monetary incentive for teams and drivers, but it will not translate into some with engines and others without, and it will provide a baseline funding source for teams that can subplant ride-buying drivers.

[Gnam]

It manufacturers want to go beyond the package for higher value teams (i.e., they have more marketing value), fine. That creates a monetary incentive for teams and drivers, but it will not translate into some with engines and others without, and it will provide a baseline funding source for teams that can subplant ride-buying drivers.
Who decides which team gets which engine? CCWS, Manufacturer, or the Team?

So, no more factory teams?

[Andrew Longman]

Who decides which team gets which engine? CCWS, Manufacturer, or the Team?

So, no more factory teams?

No, no more factory teams in the traditional sense. What the teams are buying is access to a marketing conduit provided by the series, the driver, the car and the team. That's it. But that's the thing NASCAR really gives to their suppliers.

To maximize the value the pairings must be fairly steady from year to year. You'd want to see a long term partnership with, say, dinger and Ford such that he shows up selling cars for them over a long time (as Mario and Jackie Stewart did with Ford, or Zanardi did with Honda)

I see a lottery/draft among the manufacturers. If there are three suppliers they take turns dividing up the teams, but they must be divided as evenly as possible.

If a new manufacturer wants to come in, as with an expansion draft, each supplier can protect their top teams but must throw a certain amount back into the draft.

If a new team comes in, then it goes to the supplier with the least (or perhaps most) points.

If there are concerns about things getting stale, CCWS could require that all but their top protected teams get thrown back into a draft every few years.

[Gnam]

If the venues are diverse enough no one engine should dominate them all. Manufacturers, as in NASCAR, would reasonably know at the start of the season that they will get their fair share of wins/points and positive marketing. I would not like it but with a turbo spec, worst case, a manufacturer that was out front of the others could have some boost removed, just as NASCAR takes some spoiler out now and again. That's crap, but it seems to work.
But don't engine manufacturers race to win, not just compete? If the engines are all equalized either through the specs or messing with the turbo, what credit can a manufacturer claim for a win or a championship?

[Andrew Longman]

But don't engine manufacturers race to win, not just compete? If the engines are all equalized either through the specs or messing with the turbo, what credit can a manufacturer claim for a win or a championship?

Sadly no.

Firestone will proudly say they won the I500 this year. Goodyear did the same in February with the Daytona 500. Ford has no problem not competing with anyone in CCWS. GM, Ford, and DC each have decent chance they will be able to say one of the following:

-- they won the Daytona 500,
-- powered the series champion
-- won the most races
-- powered the most cars in the top X in points
-- Powered the team with the most points
-- yada yada yada

NASCAR makes sure everyone can slice it to their advantage.

Besides, the most valuable thing from a marketing perspective (that meaning the thing that sells the most cars) is to have their logo on screen as much as possible and associated with something cool (like a cool driver or series).

What manufacturers want (unless you are Ferrari or competing in F1) is to know what it will cost to compete and what they are likely to get in return and at the least risk. Cost certainty, to borrow a hockey owners' term. ;)

[nrc]

I don't think you can take the competition out completely.

Make the same engines available to everyone at the same cost. Use durability and long lead times for changes to control expense.

If Honda wants to feed sponsors to a team I don't think you can prevent that. But they have to provide the same engines to all the other teams at the same set price. No extra support in testing or race weekends. No direct payments. No special favors like use of facilities, etc.

Electronics would have to spec and sealed. They provide a ECU program on Friday and it doesn't get touched all weekend outside of specific tuneable parameters.

Each manafacturer has to be willing to supply enough engines (through the series) to cover up to 2/3 of the field. Teams who want to switch engines select on a first come first serve basis by time in the series.

[coolhand]

I think the engine performance should be controlled as follows.

At the beginning of each season each team is alloted X amount of engines that are leased to them. This engine supply should be enough to last say 1/2 the season, then at the 1/2 way point Cosworth and Honda lease their engines for the second half of the season with their upgrades.

This keeps development moving a a slow rate. I also agree that the engines should last say 1200 miles between rebuilds and costs should be controlled.

some sort of salary cap system should be inplace for how much they can pay each team. This would make the mfcs. spread their money to each team.

[Andrew Longman]

Ideally, I wouldn't want to take competition out completely either, but I personally hate all this crap about penalizing teams that change engines and such. It seems contrived and distracting and I'm not convinced it does anything to lower costs. F1 is a mess this year IMO in this regard.

Requiring that everyone gets the same motor seems unworkable. Ask AJ about his Toyota engines. And letting teams go after whomever they want hasn't worked either. Ask AAR or Cal Wells. Ask anyone going up against AGR. I could see enough give in the spec that one engine might offer an advantage on say an oval over a road course so suppliers would try for a certain edge, but that's it.

The reason to have the manufacturers is for the sponsor dollars. So give them a reason to sponsor with a certain, reasonable return while protecting the larger racing property.

I wasn't crazy about CCWS going with a single, series owed engine but I have to admit its done exactly what it was supposed to do and created no distractions for the series. Think about it. Would the NFL allow Budweiser or any other sponsor have total freemarket reign over their sport?

[pchall]

But don't engine manufacturers race to win, not just compete? If the engines are all equalized either through the specs or messing with the turbo, what credit can a manufacturer claim for a win or a championship?

That doesn't seem to bother the manufacturers involved in NASCAR... common template, common engine, and coming soon -- common headlight decals.

Kalkhoven has said that other engine suppliers would be welcome. The big question is would they all play nice and work with the engine pool concept?

[L1P1]

I think the problem - that TG never saw coming - has always been that manufacturer money has never been specifically about the engines. Sure, engine development is the most direct route, but when you restrict it, it just makes other avenues more viable. Money flows like water and will always find its own level.

So engines are more affordable. Now, Toyota buys you more wind tunnel time, more tires, more track time, more dyno time. Maybe you get 100 times the engines you need, dyno them all, keep the best and sell the rest to the Foyt Futility Foundation.

I've posted this before, but I'm becoming more convinced that this is the way to deal with this: Break (the applicable portions of) Cosworth into three teams (Delta, Omega and Epsilon). Let them each select (in a sort of draft/lottery) a separate production engine to develop. Give them all the same budget. Anything a team wants, Cosworth buys and debits their budget. Cosworth controls the purse strings.

Then, Cosworth turns around and sells these developments in the aftermarket. You can buy the same (or at least Champ Car inspired) Ford Cosworth Delta pistons for your Focus. Or Toyota Cosworth Epsilon Cams for your Camry.

Beyond that, ban all manufacturer money except for advertising and personal services contracts with drivers and other significant people. In a successful series, the money will still get to the teams through indirect methods (e.g. Ford chooses FedEx as their sole carrier if FedEx will sponsor a car and gives the team Gazillions of dollars). But that's good in the end.