Life after the Great ‘Reunion’

[racer2c]

Dave Philips wrote an interesting piece awhile back about the split pointing out that, after all these years, the two series have truly become quite different, not only on their on track product but even more so in the people who make up the series. This talk of a merger made me think of this article and how the logistics of combing the two series will play out. Personally, I believe that we’re looking at a merger of the two series for Indy only. Maybe a couple other ovals like Michigan and Fontana. If this was indeed a 100% merger, which side would be willing to put it’s employee’s on the chopping block? Which sales and marketing team heads up the promotion? Which race control calls the races? Which safety team works the race? No, I think, or maybe I should say I ‘hope’ we’ll see a a working agreement in which the two series can meet at certain tracks. Merger only really means anything to Indy anyway and maybe the IRL teams that want to run at LB. Like we have all said, ad nausea, the IRL needs Champ Car way more than Champ Car needs the IRL. MR. Philips reminded us, commonality rules for cars and engines are one thing, but there are allot of jobs on the line too.

There is much strutting abound calling for Champ Car to dismiss Tony altogether, and I honestly believe Champ Car holds the better hand in this card game, but I think they’ll make him a partner. Keep your enemies close, that way he won’t be able to duplicate ’96. Get Tony so locked into partnership agreements, he’ll bleed Champ Cars.

What I don’t want to see is a full blown merger. I don’t want Champ Car running Sparta. I don’t want Champ Car running Kansas. I damn sure don’t want Champ Car running Texas. If two competing series work for the stick and ball sports, it can work for open wheel racing. It would actually create stories, drama, what have you, over the one time headline of “open wheel racing unites *yawn*, here’s the baseball scores”.

Champ Car and the IRL are two very different products, I hope that the powers that be acknowledge that going into these talks. Dumbing down Champ Cars to appease A.J Foyt ain’t gonna cut it.

[DagoFast]

R2C,

It will not work. When someone gets the jews and arabs to buddy up, there might be hope for these two groups. Let me know if you find such a person.

The best outcome here is total victory for one and total loss for the other.

ChampCar can rebuild without findy. In fact, it should.

The house of george was the root of all this mess. Toeknee made it clear that it was all his. Now that he has f-ed it up real good, no one should come to his rescue. Let the place rot, let ISC buy it and hoestead the turns for the cabs.

I hope they bulldoze it and build something usefull.

[Bob_S.]

Dave Philips wrote an interesting piece awhile back about the split pointing out that, after all these years, the two series have truly become quite different, not only on their on track product but even more so in the people who make up the series. This talk of a merger made me think of this article and how the logistics of combing the two series will play out. Personally, I believe that we’re looking at a merger of the two series for Indy only. Maybe a couple other ovals like Michigan and Fontana. If this was indeed a 100% merger, which side would be willing to put it’s employee’s on the chopping block? Which sales and marketing team heads up the promotion? Which race control calls the races? Which safety team works the race? No, I think, or maybe I should say I ‘hope’ we’ll see a a working agreement in which the two series can meet at certain tracks. Merger only really means anything to Indy anyway and maybe the IRL teams that want to run at LB. Like we have all said, ad nausea, the IRL needs Champ Car way more than Champ Car needs the IRL. MR. Philips reminded us, commonality rules for cars and engines are one thing, but there are allot of jobs on the line too.

There is much strutting abound calling for Champ Car to dismiss Tony altogether, and I honestly believe Champ Car holds the better hand in this card game, but I think they’ll make him a partner. Keep your enemies close, that way he won’t be able to duplicate ’96. Get Tony so locked into partnership agreements, he’ll bleed Champ Cars.

What I don’t want to see is a full blown merger. I don’t want Champ Car running Sparta. I don’t want Champ Car running Kansas. I damn sure don’t want Champ Car running Texas. If two competing series work for the stick and ball sports, it can work for open wheel racing. It would actually create stories, drama, what have you, over the one time headline of “open wheel racing unites *yawn*, here’s the baseball scores”.

Champ Car and the IRL are two very different products, I hope that the powers that be acknowledge that going into these talks. Dumbing down Champ Cars to appease A.J Foyt ain’t gonna cut it.

You don't keep your enemies close, you keep them under ground. :cool:
CART had its flaws but it didn't lose most of its core fan base. One of the biggest risks to any merging of the series would be to alienate this base by having CCWS say "Its OK now, these owners tried to kill us but now they're good again. These drivers had press conferences two minutes after they switched where they tore us apart but now we want to welcome them back". It won't work for the same reason that EARL failled. The fans are not dumb. :)
Honda is on some shaky ground. We remember SpacerGate, we remember them saying that they'd never go EARL. Mostly, we remember what happened when the series lost its control to Honda and Toyota's budgets.
Bringing Champcars back to the good old days will be tough, if not impossible. There will be groups who made out well from the split **cough, ISC, cough** who will want to keep what they got.
Kevin and Gerry have done well on their own. It will take time but I think they can get there with the plan they already have.

[racer2c]

So I guess the real question is 'how will Champ Car fans live with a merged series?'. I'm assuming many won't.
All indicators point to a merger being inevitable. I think they'll give Tony a partnership in the CCWS. I think the IRL will continue to sanction Indy with Champ Car taking care of their races ala USAC.
I just pray to the motor racing gods that if a commonality solution is the path taken, it's more Champ Car, than crapwagon.

[Spicoli]

FTG - all I want is my indy 500 back. The rest can evaporate.

[sadams]

I just pray to the motor racing gods that if a commonality solution is the path taken, it's more Champ Car, than crapwagon.

It better be or I am outta here. There's ALMS to watch or Star Mazda or any number of series that are much better than crapwagons. FTG.

[cart7]

I just pray to the motor racing gods that if a commonality solution is the path taken, it's more Champ Car, than crapwagon.

I saw a post at TF from someone that's given reliable info before that Honda has been doing some dyno testing on, you guessed it, their old mothballed Cart engines.

Seeing's how the majority of the earl regulars still have their old Cart equipment I'd say it'll be more economically feasible for the CCWS formula to be used.



BTW, I'm probably in the minority here, but I want Indy back as well as a few of the earl ovals, Fontana, Michigan and a few more. I'd much rather try and rebuild North American Open wheel racing with Indy as my Marquee event than not.

Also, and I can see the flames coming already, I still don't see where KK has proven CCWS can make it without Indy. We have no idea how much $$ he's still dumping into the series, how many of the teams are truely self sufficient and just how many countries, cities, etc, are anxiously awaiting a CCWS race. So far, he's thrown a lot of races out there in a bunch of foreign countries but few have actually materialized into an actual date on the CCWS race calendar.

Flame away. ;) :D

[Bob_S.]

I saw a post at TF from someone that's given reliable info before that Honda has been doing some dyno testing on, you guessed it, their old mothballed Cart engines.

Seeing's how the majority of the earl regulars still have their old Cart equipment I'd say it'll be more economically feasible for the CCWS formula to be used.



BTW, I'm probably in the minority here, but I want Indy back as well as a few of the earl ovals, Fontana, Michigan and a few more. I'd much rather try and rebuild North American Open wheel racing with Indy as my Marquee event than not.

Also, and I can see the flames coming already, I still don't see where KK has proven CCWS can make it without Indy. We have no idea how much $$ he's still dumping into the series, how many of the teams are truely self sufficient and just how many countries, cities, etc, are anxiously awaiting a CCWS race. So far, he's thrown a lot of races out there in a bunch of foreign countries but few have actually materialized into an actual date on the CCWS race calendar.

Flame away. ;) :D

Here's the kicker. Who made out the best from The Split? Part two, do you really believe ISC/Nascar wants to give Champcar a second chance at becoming popular with the generic (US) fans? ;)
As much as I'd like see CCWS run at Michigan and Fontana again, I'm realistic enough to believe it won't happen for several reasons. Penske doesn't own those tracks anymore. Ovals are becoming tricky to run where its either huge downforce and pack racing (EARL or 'Vegas wing package) or drivers with shakey hands at the end of the day. :eek:
Last, no flames but keep in mind that a LOT of damage was done over the last ten years. Not just because of the EARL, but many of those old traditional sponsors have left altogether or merged with others. Business has changed during the Split. We're only seeing Year 2 of CCWS. Give it time to evolve.

[dando]

FTG - all I want is my indy 500 back. The rest can evaporate.
It'll never be what it was, Spic. Move on. I can be better than it is today, but it will never be like it was >10 years ago.

2C, IF there were any sort of a merger, FTG should be a silent partner like PG (as in keep your mouth shut, here's your 10% + the gate @ IMS). MoNtegi, St. Pete, and IMS are the only tracks worth keeping....maybe MIS and Fontucky if the relationship with ISC can be rehabilitated. With the current schedule that's 20+ races, so something would have to give to include the likes of RA and MO (in my rose-colored world).

-Kevin

[Jag_Warrior]

I saw a post at TF from someone that's given reliable info before that Honda has been doing some dyno testing on, you guessed it, their old mothballed Cart engines.

Seeing's how the majority of the earl regulars still have their old Cart equipment I'd say it'll be more economically feasible for the CCWS formula to be used.



BTW, I'm probably in the minority here, but I want Indy back as well as a few of the earl ovals, Fontana, Michigan and a few more. I'd much rather try and rebuild North American Open wheel racing with Indy as my Marquee event than not.

Also, and I can see the flames coming already, I still don't see where KK has proven CCWS can make it without Indy. We have no idea how much $$ he's still dumping into the series, how many of the teams are truely self sufficient and just how many countries, cities, etc, are anxiously awaiting a CCWS race. So far, he's thrown a lot of races out there in a bunch of foreign countries but few have actually materialized into an actual date on the CCWS race calendar.

Flame away. ;) :D

I'll share the friendly fire with ya. The entire sport is in fairly pitiful shape. Even Indy has declined to the point of being below the ratings for an average NASCAR race. And unless Danica gets implants and shows them to the world prior to the race on ABC, the Coke 600 will probably beat it again this year. But on the CCWS side, too many drivers are being picked for the check they can bring than by the talent they can bring. Too many marketable American drivers are going to NASCAR. Too many natural terrain American road courses have been abandoned (quite often the fault of the tracks, but still, they're gone). IMO, this type of racing gets poor ratings because fewer and fewer people can relate to it.

The best business model is probably the one these (smart & wealthy) guys are pursuing: more street races in urban areas (that make money) and fly-away races where the sanction fee is based on the foreign desire for open wheel formula cars. 1 spec car. 1 spec engine. Keep costs down. Build the business. They've forgotten more about doing business than I'll ever know. But as a fan, I want to see something sexy, exciting... and familiar.

I want things to get (truly) better. I want CCWS and IRL fans to stop trading bragging rights by who can shout louder we suck less!... while NASCAR fans mumble, ya both suck. And yeah, I want to go back to watching (or attending) Indy again... with no sense of shame or regret.

[stroker]

Jag, I think you and Dando are on the right page.

I'd still like to see the Amigos try to promote some sort of "Triple Crown" with LB as the American leg, then one of the Canadian races as the second and one of the Mexican races as the third. If they had Molsons sponsor Canada and Tecate sponsor Mexico, then we need either Miller or Bud to sponsor Long Beach--something like that. Use that additional sponsorship to boost the purse and increase attention.

We'll never, unfortunately, get to throw the Ring into Mt. Doom or toss the Emperor down the ventilation shaft, but maybe we can consign him to a cell in a tower far, far away... I know, we'll call it, the Bombardier Pagoda!

:D

[sadams]

IMO, this type of racing gets poor ratings because fewer and fewer people can relate to it.


How so ? I can't relate to driving in a circle but can sure relate to a road course. However the 800lb gorilla that is NASCAR ,in the 10 years of the split, has indoctrinated an entire generation to believe what they have is racing.
Pre split CART could have and I believe would have givne the taxis a run for thier money, but for the Idiot grandson. Oh yeah. FTG.

[CART T. Katz]

i would much rather prefer a merger by-way-of merging by default. that solves all of the problems with employment of the support crews. i want indy and phoenix back. i want michigan and fontana back. i want st. pete back. i want gallatin co. (selfish reasons, who wouldn't want a champ car race 50 minutes from your front door?) i want cars back. i don't want tg anywhere near my series. tg can rot in hell as far as i'm concerned, he's the king idiot that started this mess. it makes no sense to take in the people who were out to destroy you in the first place.

the writing is on the wall. we'll have our merger with the other side playing by our rules by 07 if not sooner.

[Andrew Longman]

I'm not seeing why life after the "reunion" will include much IRL at all.

Consider:

Events: How many IRL events are really viable anyway? How many promoters/track would be hugely PO'd if their contracts weren't extended (or if they were offered a buyout)?

Teams: How many teams will continue with the IRL if they could run Indy and the CCWS schedule instead of Indy and the IRL schedule? How many will run anything at all with out supplier money?

Sponsors: Same as the teams. If you could pick your series and run Indy either way, where do you go?

Engines: This is a little less clear because we don't know what options, if any TG will come up with. If both series are supplied by Cosworth (and possibly Honda), or CCWS by Cosworth and IRL by Honda then maybe it is a wash. But my bet is to believe Honda when they say they will only play if there is one series. They'd want one true series.

Fans: The degree that the IRL actually has fans (other than Indy fans) is hard to know. You won't find them at the track or watching TV. But give them the Indy, put it on an upward trend, give them a few more ovals and American drivers, and I think they will be fine. As for CCWS, there strategy is to go to where the fans are; in the cities and internationally. If they do that in a way that also appeals to their core base of technically interested, road racing enthusiast, they'll be fine. Together, CCWS also won't find a better product to put on US TV (though they do need to improve the cars, reduce FCY and promote the drivers).

I really don't see much for the IRL to offer. A healthier 500 is the only thing of real interest. If they did, TG would still be standing arrogant. TG will likely get a piece of the ownership, just to save face and grease the process, but they don't have to.

[racer2c]

I'm not seeing why life after the "reunion" will include much IRL at all.

Consider:

Events: How many IRL events are really viable anyway? How many promoters/track would be hugely PO'd if their contracts weren't extended (or if they were offered a buyout)?

Teams: How many teams will continue with the IRL if they could run Indy and the CCWS schedule instead of Indy and the IRL schedule? How many will run anything at all with out supplier money?

Sponsors: Same as the teams. If you could pick your series and run Indy either way, where do you go?

Engines: This is a little less clear because we don't know what options, if any TG will come up with. If both series are supplied by Cosworth (and possibly Honda), or CCWS by Cosworth and IRL by Honda then maybe it is a wash. But my bet is to believe Honda when they say they will only play if there is one series. They'd want one true series.

Fans: The degree that the IRL actually has fans (other than Indy fans) is hard to know. You won't find them at the track or watching TV. But give them the Indy, put it on an upward trend, give them a few more ovals and American drivers, and I think they will be fine. As for CCWS, there strategy is to go to where the fans are; in the cities and internationally. If they do that in a way that also appeals to their core base of technically interested, road racing enthusiast, they'll be fine. Together, CCWS also won't find a better product to put on US TV (though they do need to improve the cars, reduce FCY and promote the drivers).

I really don't see much for the IRL to offer. A healthier 500 is the only thing of real interest. If they did, TG would still be standing arrogant. TG will likely get a piece of the ownership, just to save face and grease the process, but they don't have to.

So after Tony becomes a board memeber of Champ Car, he'll send a memo saying "As of today all IRL positions have been terminated to be replaced by Champ Car employees". I don't think so.

[Sean O'Gorman]

How so ? I can't relate to driving in a circle but can sure relate to a road course. However the 800lb gorilla that is NASCAR ,in the 10 years of the split, has indoctrinated an entire generation to believe what they have is racing.
Pre split CART could have and I believe would have givne the taxis a run for thier money, but for the Idiot grandson. Oh yeah. FTG.

NASCAR is more relatable because the drivers are more identifiable. A NASCAR driver can be followed for years in Trucks and BGN, whereas open wheel drivers just seem to pop up out of nowhere.

[nrc]

Events: How many IRL events are really viable anyway? How many promoters/track would be hugely PO'd if their contracts weren't extended (or if they were offered a buyout)?Phoenix, Michigan and Fontana should be given a chance if they'll pay. St. Pete and maybe Watkins Glen if it really is safe. MoNtegi if they'll pay the big bucks.


Teams: How many teams will continue with the IRL if they could run Indy and the CCWS schedule instead of Indy and the IRL schedule? How many will run anything at all with out supplier money?Very few. That's why George wants nothing to do with a common formula.

[cameraman]

Currently CCWS is headed in a global direction because that is where the money is. You have new races in Korea & China and they are looking to expand into Japan & Argentina/Brazil. Add to that one race in Australia, 2 races in Mexico and three in Canada and you have a truly international series. As a result you have Canadians wanting Canadian drivers, Mexico - Mexicans etc. You will probably see Chinese, Korean and possibly Japanese drivers and perhaps even teams showing up next year.

How does anyone reconcile that schedule/driver mix with a bunch of xenophobic American IRL fans? There is a large segment of US racing fans that desire to see nothing but 'Mericans coming up from Knoxville. Look at F1, the whole damn planet follows F1 except people in the US because they don't care about them damn furiners.

Even if the IRL were to vanish off the face of the earth I can not envision the sudden emergence of hordes of Andrew Ranger fans in middle America. The fact that his is one of the most promising young drivers does not seem to matter.

I don't see much prospect for unification out there and it has nothing to do with FTG.

[cart7]

I'm not seeing why life after the "reunion" will include much IRL at all.

Consider:

Events: How many IRL events are really viable anyway? How many promoters/track would be hugely PO'd if their contracts weren't extended (or if they were offered a buyout)?

We don't know. Nor do we know how many of CCWS's events are really viable.

Teams: How many teams will continue with the IRL if they could run Indy and the CCWS schedule instead of Indy and the IRL schedule? How many will run anything at all with out supplier money?

We don't know this either. Then again, how many CCWS teams are in the same boat with the supplier money = KK/GF?

Sponsors:Same as the teams. If you could pick your series and run Indy either way, where do you go?

I think the idea would be to merge the 2 and take the best from both. Sorry, but I'll take Fontana over some street race in San Jose anyday.

Engines:This is a little less clear because we don't know what options, if any TG will come up with. If both series are supplied by Cosworth (and possibly Honda), or CCWS by Cosworth and IRL by Honda then maybe it is a wash. But my bet is to believe Honda when they say they will only play if there is one series. They'd want one true series.

Since Honda still has old Cart engines laying around and most of the viable earl teams still have their old Cart stuff around I'd say there's a pretty simple solution.

Fans: The degree that the IRL actually has fans (other than Indy fans) is hard to know. You won't find them at the track or watching TV. But give them the Indy, put it on an upward trend, give them a few more ovals and American drivers, and I think they will be fine. As for CCWS, there strategy is to go to where the fans are; in the cities and internationally. If they do that in a way that also appeals to their core base of technically interested, road racing enthusiast, they'll be fine. Together, CCWS also won't find a better product to put on US TV (though they do need to improve the cars, reduce FCY and promote the drivers).

IRL fans amount to a bunch of Indy junkies and some CCWS/irl fan crossovers. Not much more.

I'll disagree with your CCWS assessment. I don't think street races build a fan base nor are that appealing to road racing enthusiasts. They're downtown events which draw a lot of event party fans and don't sell well on TV. They make wonderful B2B vehicles but the racing usually sucks and spectating a street race isn't near as fun as a road course unless you're into the party. Carts street race events on TV always drew the worst ratings of the year vs. oval and road course races.

I really don't see much for the IRL to offer. A healthier 500 is the only thing of real interest. If they did, TG would still be standing arrogant. TG will likely get a piece of the ownership, just to save face and grease the process, but they don't have to.

I think if they give he and his race enough assurances, he won't need to have a piece of the series. I for one wouldn't want his input, I really don't think he'd have anything constructive to say.

[Racing Truth]

Dave Philips wrote an interesting piece awhile back about the split pointing out that, after all these years, the two series have truly become quite different, not only on their on track product but even more so in the people who make up the series. This talk of a merger made me think of this article and how the logistics of combing the two series will play out. Personally, I believe that we’re looking at a merger of the two series for Indy only. Maybe a couple other ovals like Michigan and Fontana. If this was indeed a 100% merger, which side would be willing to put it’s employee’s on the chopping block? Which sales and marketing team heads up the promotion? Which race control calls the races? Which safety team works the race? No, I think, or maybe I should say I ‘hope’ we’ll see a a working agreement in which the two series can meet at certain tracks. Merger only really means anything to Indy anyway and maybe the IRL teams that want to run at LB. Like we have all said, ad nausea, the IRL needs Champ Car way more than Champ Car needs the IRL. MR. Philips reminded us, commonality rules for cars and engines are one thing, but there are allot of jobs on the line too.

There is much strutting abound calling for Champ Car to dismiss Tony altogether, and I honestly believe Champ Car holds the better hand in this card game, but I think they’ll make him a partner. Keep your enemies close, that way he won’t be able to duplicate ’96. Get Tony so locked into partnership agreements, he’ll bleed Champ Cars.

What I don’t want to see is a full blown merger. I don’t want Champ Car running Sparta. I don’t want Champ Car running Kansas. I damn sure don’t want Champ Car running Texas. If two competing series work for the stick and ball sports, it can work for open wheel racing. It would actually create stories, drama, what have you, over the one time headline of “open wheel racing unites *yawn*, here’s the baseball scores”.

Champ Car and the IRL are two very different products, I hope that the powers that be acknowledge that going into these talks. Dumbing down Champ Cars to appease A.J Foyt ain’t gonna cut it.

In terms of the sales and marketing personnel, I'm sure they're all wonderful people, but frankly, go Nuclear on both departments from both sides. These idiots wouldn't know effective marketing if it hit them in the head. To be sure, thanks to the Split, they were dealt an awful hand, but c'mon, it's been horrific.

I would say also, that given a challenging formula (not the side-by-side IRL bull), one or two 1.5 milers wouldn't bother me. What those are can be debated. Texas is too fast, too rough I agree. Kansas may be boring, but its smooth and, geographically speaking, there's not much else out there, so it might be worth it.

Chicagoland seems unnecessary with Indy so close. Homestead is a lost cause, and I hate the new track anyway.

Ovals:

Indy
MIS
Fontana
Phoenix (given time, I still want this track)
Pikes Peak (1 mi. Small in terms of grandstands, but for this sport, that's not a bad thing.)
Kansas
Milwaukee
Vegas
If some insisted, Chicagoland.

Other possibles:

Gateway
Richmond (I know, but given a good formula, it could be, as 'Bird said, "a hoot.")

That's all I would like for Ovals

[Andrew Longman]

So after Tony becomes a board memeber of Champ Car, he'll send a memo saying "As of today all IRL positions have been terminated to be replaced by Champ Car employees". I don't think so.

It may not be left up to him. And if he had any say at all, how much loyalty does he have to them that he would risk queering the whole deal over it?

My guess is Tony is about Tony and his speedway. If he can find jobs for them there he will. If CCWS find use in them they will take them. But in any business deal it is only the jobs of the people in the room making the deal that are considered.

[Gnam]

If this was indeed a 100% merger, which side would be willing to put it’s employee’s on the chopping block? Which sales and marketing team heads up the promotion? Which race control calls the races? Which safety team works the race?

So after Tony becomes a board memeber of Champ Car, he'll send a memo saying "As of today all IRL positions have been terminated to be replaced by Champ Car employees". I don't think so.
Since when is FTG such a humanitarian who cares about his employees more than his wallet? Bidness is bidness. The merger (if it happens) won't be stopped by possible layoffs.

[oddlycalm]

One of the biggest risks to any merging of the series would be to alienate this base by having CCWS say "Its OK now, these owners tried to kill us but now they're good again. These drivers had press conferences two minutes after they switched where they tore us apart but now we want to welcome them back". It won't work for the same reason that EARL failled. The fans are not dumb. :)
Honda is on some shaky ground. We remember SpacerGate, we remember them saying that they'd never go EARL. Mostly, we remember what happened when the series lost its control to Honda and Toyota's budgets.
Bringing Champcars back to the good old days will be tough, if not impossible. This pretty much mirrors my own take. I don't see CCWS fans getting warm fuzzy feelings about any of the defectors, let along the Idiot In Indiana. In business we have joint ventures with competitors and merge with them without much drama in most cases, and so it will be for CCWS and if they are professional they will make the changes largely transparent. However, you never mess with the consumer brand end of the business without risk of inciting mass customer defections. That's where they have a hard task ahead. Consumers hold grudges and never forget. Turn off your customers, and you lose the entire game.

Selling me on a series that includes Pimpske, Fatassi, Rahole and the evile AGR spawn is going to be an impossible sell. There better be some damn good natural terrain road course events where I can watch Seabass embarrass these sewer rats or I'll be finding myself with plenty of time to do other things. One thing both series managements should have absorbed by now is that the TV audience has been largely not interested in the product. Snoozemobiles at boring venues may be able to draw a crowd at the gate (or not), but it sucks on TV and absolutely nobody has been watching either series. If they can't find a solution for the full course yellows, field impressive cars and put on interesting races, they'd all just a well fold the tent right now and go back to their other businesses.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

We don't know. Nor do we know how many of CCWS's events are really viable.

We know that they dropped, or were dropped by, many clearly poorly attended races. Some became even less viable when they became IRL events. How many CCWS races will be in front of 8000 fans this year?

We don't know this either. Then again, how many CCWS teams are in the same boat with the supplier money = KK/GF?

Point taken, but my sense is that teams taking KK money are there because they want to be there and see the longer term business potential. AGR, CG, BR, MN and RP are in the IRL because that's where the engine money is... and lots of it. Much more I'm sure than KK is paying.

I think the idea would be to merge the 2 and take the best from both. Sorry, but I'll take Fontana over some street race in San Jose anyday.

Me too. But if the SJ race is a success financially, it will likely stay on the schedule. Fontana will be added if the budgets can afford X many races and if it will make money. They will only merge the things that make sense and ger out of the rest

Since Honda still has old Cart engines laying around and most of the viable earl teams still have their old Cart stuff around I'd say there's a pretty simple solution.

If the Honda rumor is true, and Honda's concerns about both series are addressed, then I could see Honda wanting to participate. It doesn't mean CCWS will want them. Or that they will want to race with the IRL if the IRL has Honda playing. CCWS can tell TG to dump the Honda money if it also comes with all the supplier baggage. CCWS has control of their series. They would never give that up just because TG doesn't. There are ways to include Honda and others in a positive way. They just need to make sure it happens that way.

IRL fans amount to a bunch of Indy junkies and some CCWS/irl fan crossovers. Not much more.

I'll disagree with your CCWS assessment. I don't think street races build a fan base nor are that appealing to road racing enthusiasts. They're downtown events which draw a lot of event party fans and don't sell well on TV. They make wonderful B2B vehicles but the racing usually sucks and spectating a street race isn't near as fun as a road course unless you're into the party. Carts street race events on TV always drew the worst ratings of the year vs. oval and road course races.

I actually agree with your assessment. What I said was they have to do these street events in a way that DOES attract/develop road race fans. One way is to do them more like Cleveland and Edmonton (or St Pete). Another is to do them more like Toronto than Houston. And finally make sure you don't have too many of them period and that some races are actually run on real road courses.

I think if they give he and his race enough assurances, he won't need to have a piece of the series. I for one wouldn't want his input, I really don't think he'd have anything constructive to say.

No disagreement on TG. I'm simply no opposed to giving him something if it will get this thing done and so long as it isn't too much.

[FCYTravis]

One thing both series managements should have absorbed by now is that the TV audience has been largely not interested in the product. Snoozemobiles at boring venues may be able to draw a crowd at the gate (or not), but it sucks on TV and absolutely nobody has been watching either series.
Yep. Thus all my bitching about dumping the American road courses. What the heck do you think is going to get higher ratings - a live race at Road America or a tapedelayed mess from a parking lot in Korea? :shakehead

[Rus'L]

I'll disagree with your CCWS assessment. I don't think street races build a fan base nor are that appealing to road racing enthusiasts. They're downtown events which draw a lot of event party fans and don't sell well on TV. They make wonderful B2B vehicles but the racing usually sucks and spectating a street race isn't near as fun as a road course unless you're into the party. Carts street race events on TV always drew the worst ratings of the year vs. oval and road course races.

Back during the peak times of CART (90s pre-IRL), Toronto consistently got the higher TV ratings. They were usually amongst the top three along with Cleveland and Michigan.

If anyone wants to do the work, they can look up old Racer magazines which always had the ratings in them.

[FCYTravis]

How so ? I can't relate to driving in a circle but can sure relate to a road course. However the 800lb gorilla that is NASCAR ,in the 10 years of the split, has indoctrinated an entire generation to believe what they have is racing.
No, what they've done is properly managed their business and cultivated a grassroots driver base.

Nobody cares about the lower levels of road racing in America - nobody watches young RHR and Tonis Kasemets and Adam Pecorari climb the ranks of SCCA Club Racing and F2000s and whatnot.

On the other hand, millions of people across America get to watch Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman, Kurt Busch, etc. climb through the ranks of the Saturday-night short tracks to Pro Cup, ARCA, Trucks, etc. NASCAR takes pains to build driver and fan connections right from the start.

Champ Car (and the IRL) throw #RANDOM_ROAD_RACER in a seat and expect the fans to make a connection with some guy they've never heard of from a country halfway around the world.

It's not "xenophobia." It's good marketing.

[racer2c]

Whoever claims to be the premier US road racing series and isn't racing at either RA, M-O or Laguna, is not the premier series.
CCWS needs to be at least at one of those venues, preferebly all three.

I still think a triple crown meeting of the two series would provide the best drama, although like nrc pointed out, why would any of the IRL teams want to race in the IRL, when they could race in the Champ Car series in front of fans.

[Racing Truth]

No, what they've done is properly managed their business and cultivated a grassroots driver base.

Nobody cares about the lower levels of road racing in America - nobody watches young RHR and Tonis Kasemets and Adam Pecorari climb the ranks of SCCA Club Racing and F2000s and whatnot.

On the other hand, millions of people across America get to watch Kasey Kahne, Ryan Newman, Kurt Busch, etc. climb through the ranks of the Saturday-night short tracks to Pro Cup, ARCA, Trucks, etc. NASCAR takes pains to build driver and fan connections right from the start.

Champ Car (and the IRL) throw #RANDOM_ROAD_RACER in a seat and expect the fans to make a connection with some guy they've never heard of from a country halfway around the world.

It's not "xenophobia." It's good marketing.

"It's good marketing."

Which makes it complete anathema to Champ Car and the IRL.

[Jag_Warrior]

Champ Car (and the IRL) throw #RANDOM_ROAD_RACER in a seat and expect the fans to make a connection with some guy they've never heard of from a country halfway around the world.

It's not "xenophobia." It's good marketing.

:thumbup:

I feel like I do what I can to keep up with the CCWS drivers - even the new ones. But it's harder to keep up now, because not as many outlets give any sort of coverage (and I cancelled many subscriptions to rag mags several years ago). But while watching Monterrey, I found myself saying, "who's that guy again?!" :confused:

Several have already said what I meant, when I mentioned that this type of racing is no longer what people relate to (as much). I didn't mean road courses vs. ovals. People will like what you convince them they like. As FCYTravis said, it's good marketing.

[Racing Truth]

I saw a post at TF from someone that's given reliable info before that Honda has been doing some dyno testing on, you guessed it, their old mothballed Cart engines.

Seeing's how the majority of the earl regulars still have their old Cart equipment I'd say it'll be more economically feasible for the CCWS formula to be used.



BTW, I'm probably in the minority here, but I want Indy back as well as a few of the earl ovals, Fontana, Michigan and a few more. I'd much rather try and rebuild North American Open wheel racing with Indy as my Marquee event than not.

Also, and I can see the flames coming already, I still don't see where KK has proven CCWS can make it without Indy. We have no idea how much $$ he's still dumping into the series, how many of the teams are truely self sufficient and just how many countries, cities, etc, are anxiously awaiting a CCWS race. So far, he's thrown a lot of races out there in a bunch of foreign countries but few have actually materialized into an actual date on the CCWS race calendar.

Flame away. ;) :D

See, the "Nuke (figuratively) Indy" crowd still has not answered the essential question embedded here. If there is one series, and if you take away IMS, what exactly will, in the short term, bring in ANYBODY?

Let's see, a unified series with Indy as its marquee, or the same series with Long Beach as its marquee. Reallllllly tough call there. :gomer:

I love LB too, but at some point, reality has to come into these discussions.

[KLang]

I don't understand why some think we need Indy or any other race as a marquee event. The earl has been trying to do this for the last ten years and it has been a failure. To me, CART the series was always bigger then any individual event.

[Spicoli]

I don't understand why some think we need Indy or any other race as a marquee event. The earl has been trying to do this for the last ten years and it has been a failure. To me, CART the series was always bigger then any individual event.

Define "trying". FTG and his band of yesmen are morons. Lokk what they have done over the last 10 years.


OK? got it?



Now do the exact opposite and you should be good to go. :thumbup:

[Racing Truth]

I don't understand why some think we need Indy or any other race as a marquee event. The earl has been trying to do this for the last ten years and it has been a failure. To me, CART the series was always bigger then any individual event.

I hate to sound all gomerlike, but you don't think CART benefitted from running at Indianapolis? CART was always a strong series, and overall, yes, bigger than just one event. But to claim Indy wasn't a significant factor at least just seems foolish.

In terms of the IRL, yes, but their series is based on a) incompetence, and b) Indy obsession. I'm not suggesting to run the series around one race, but I fail to see why Indy cannot be the big event (or one of the big ones- think Triple Croen folks).

[Racing Truth]

Define "trying". FTG and his band of yesmen are morons. Lokk what they have done over the last 10 years.


OK? got it?



Now do the exact opposite and you should be good to go. :thumbup:

Pretty much.

[mueber]

See, the "Nuke (figuratively) Indy" crowd still has not answered the essential question embedded here. If there is one series, and if you take away IMS, what exactly will, in the short term, bring in ANYBODY?

Let's see, a unified series with Indy as its marquee, or the same series with Long Beach as its marquee. Reallllllly tough call there. :gomer:

I love LB too, but at some point, reality has to come into these discussions.

In the short-run nothing is going to happen, including folding Gomerville into the Champ Car Series, that will fix what ails open wheel.

In the long run developing the SERIES ala, say, I don’t know, NASCAR, will serve open wheel well. Dwelling on one race a year, ala, Le Mans, is a continuation of the medieval thinking that has gotten us in this mess in the first place.

Turn the Gomerville Speedway into an industrial mall, and we have a chance. Otherwise, we all might as well give up and go to NASCAR races.

[Racing Truth]

So we build something from not a whole h=ll of a lot?

[mueber]

So we build something from not a whole h=ll of a lot?

If you think Champ Car is not a whole lot, you are on the wrong forum.

My point is that we develop what we have without the millstone that is Gomerville around our necks.

[Racing Truth]

If you think Champ Car is not a whole lot, you are on the wrong forum.

My point is that we develop what we have without the millstone that is Gomerville around our necks.

Yes, .6 ratings on national television is a sure sign of inherent greatness on the North American sporting scene. :gomer:

That doesn't mean I don't enjoy it. You're damn right I do. But if you really think ChampCar is "a whole lot," well I would suggesting removing the blinders.

Nothing, NOTHING in this sport mounts to a whole h=ll of a lot.

But I'm sure Beijing and Ansan will captivate the imaginations of all fans. :shakehead

[KLang]

Dwelling on one race a year, ala, Le Mans, is a continuation of the medieval thinking that has gotten us in this mess in the first place.


:thumbup: Exactly right.

Indy fixation is what led us to the bankruptcy court last year. Except for Haas, Champ Car seems to have cured itself. IMO time for the fans to move on as well.

[Ray Scar]

Of course after the IRL dies ChampCar should return to the 500. That's what this whole thing was about and that's what will be the focal point of resurrecting open wheel racing from the hole that TG dug. I would prefer that TG not be a part of open wheel racing anymore but that's probably too much to ask. As long as he's nothing but a track owner I can probably hold my nose and put up with it.

It is certainly debatable what it might take to bring the 500 back to it's former glory, if it's even possible. And it will take time but KK and Co. have demonstrated they understand long term planning and willingness to stay the course. It's worth remembering they are in the 2nd year of a 5 year plan, and talk of mere survival has changed to cautious optomism.

Some of the problems mentioned will go away with the IRL. Foremost of which is that sponsorships should be easier to come by, making it less necessary to hire pay drivers. Marketing will be easier without the confusion.

I

[oddlycalm]

It's worth remembering they are in the 2nd year of a 5 year plan, and talk of mere survival has changed to cautious optomism.

Some of the problems mentioned will go away with the IRL. Foremost of which is that sponsorships should be easier to come by, making it less necessary to hire pay drivers. Marketing will be easier without the confusion. All true in the event it does happen. Getting Indy back would shave a year or perhaps two off of where CCWS would be without it.

I've argued as hard as anyone that OW racing needs to get out from under the jaundiced shadow of the IMS, but at this point having it as a piece of the series would help pull sponsorship onboard more quickly.

All bets are off if the price is TG's participation in CCWS. There is nothin he can do to rehabilitate himself with champcar fans. I would hate to see KK and JF allow this idiot to ruin all the hard work their organization has put in.

oc

[Andrew Longman]

I don't understand why some think we need Indy or any other race as a marquee event. The earl has been trying to do this for the last ten years and it has been a failure. To me, CART the series was always bigger then any individual event.

The series always should be bigger than a single event. NASCAR is bigger than Daytona. F1 is bigger than Monaco. But any series is better off with a marquee event than without it.

LB has been CC top event. Would it be better to have Indy also? Surely. F1 also has Imola, Silverstone and Nurenburg. Nascar also has Charlotte, Bristol and Dega that draw special interest.

But no, Indy (or any race) should be important because it can make the series more important, not because it is important itself.

[mueber]

The definition of dysfunctional is to make the same mistake over and over hoping that this time it will work.