Guarantees for Tony

[nrc]

I just figured it all out. The solution is really simple. Back in 1994 Tony George told the world in his letter to the Indy Star, "This league was created because CART provided no long-term guarantees to the "500" or to oval track racing."

So we don't have to talk about reunification Champ car just needs to give Tony some guarantees. There is no "reunification," George doesn't have to be involved in Champ car, and the IRL just goes away.

Here are the guarantees I'd suggest:

Champ car guarantees that they will sanction a race at the Indianapolis Motor Speedway every Memorial Day Weekend in perpetuity. The sanction fee will be $1.

Champ car guarantees that the Indy 500 will always pay championship points according to its normal points distribution.

Champ car guarantees that Tony George will have the right to match any offer that Champ car's owners may consider to sell all or part of their interest in Champ car.

Champ car guarantees that it will not schedule other events on Memorial Day weekend or the three weekends prior.

Champ car guarantees that there will be at least 34 qualification attempts for the Indy 500. They will pay last place money for any number of attempts short of 34.

Champ car guarantees that at least half their schedule will be oval races, up to 10 ovals. If the schedule falls to less than half ovals Tony or a promoter delegated by him will have the right of first refusal to promote an oval event at 60% of the customary sanction fee. The idea here is that if Tony wants to insist on oval races he can't expect Champ car to take a big loss on them. This is a face-saving gesture for George. There won't be 10 oval promoters willing to pay a reasonable sanction fee.

Champ car guarantees that at least half of their races will be in the United States. Same terms as with oval races.

In order for these terms to remain in effect George will have to make the following guarantees.

Tony George guarantees that Indy 500 viewership will not fall below 3 million households for three consecutive years.

Tony George guarantees that Indy 500 attendance will not fall below 200,000 for three consecutive years.

Tony George guarantees that the Indy 500 will be on live network TV.

Tony George guarantees that any qualifying days scheduled outside the race weekend will have at least 2 hours of network TV coverage.

Did I miss anything?

[Jag_Warrior]

I'm negotiating my transfer right now. If you're not busy, swing by & see me.

I likes what I sees. :thumbup:

[FCYTravis]

I would vote to make it keep 90 percent of the races in the NAFTA countries - or alternatively, no more than two outside NAFTA.

18 out of 20. Two flyaway races are enough - Surfers and Brazil?

[cart7]

Sounds like a winner to me nrc.

Tony should be relieved he no longer has to organize those periodic synapse firings in that brain of his into cognitive ideas. He can now just sit back and watch the bucks roll in, unfettered from 3 races at the speedway.

I'll bet Bernie will still let him wave the checkers at the USGP.

No more checks to Giaffone, or Sarah or Greg Beck.

Maybe he could rig up one of those high speed, racing riding mowers for special Ed so he doesn't get so bored while mowing the back nine at the crossings Golf course.

It's all good. :thumbup:

[pchall]

Why sanction the IRL 497.5 for a dollar? Tony George needs to swallow paying a multi-million fee to Champ Cars for their administration and participation. He was so concerned that CART would eventually demand a fee back in 1994, why not make his worst fear a reality? The same goes for the rest of this appeasement agenda.

I suppose I'm just part of the "rub his face in his dirt and make him eat it" school of business relationships, but there is really no reason to let St. Tony the Martyr [insert picture of TG tied to the Pagoda and pierced by flying Dallaras here] have anything that even hints at validating his decade of stupidity.

[gjc2]

I don't think TG deserves any guarantees other than dedicating the three weekends leading up to the Memorial Day weekend, and guaranteeing a field of 33 cars. He, of all people doesn't need a reduction in the sanctioning fee. It's obvious that the principals of Champ Car don't need his input as to the running of the series. TG will then have the opportunity to return the Indianapolis 500 to its former glory, which should keep him busy.


George

[Andrew Longman]

Fine. Tell him we will show up forever and we will sanction the race. Tell him we will show up with at least 34 cars.

But why does he get the broadcast rights? Especially when he's not paying a sanction fee. He has to pay for/give up something. And the I500 rights are the only thing Disney was interested in when they signed up for the whole IRL. If it is a CCWS sanctioned event, they ought to be able to sell those rights in a total TV package.

Why do half the races have to be ovals and in the US? The market is telling us otherwise and people have always shown up in May regardless of what the cars did the rest of the year.

I think you're giving too much. It sound too much like the IRL deal he has now.

[nrc]

But why does he get the broadcast rights? Especially when he's not paying a sanction fee. He has to pay for/give up something.
He is. He's giving up the IRL and all control of anything outside of speedway. The object is to give him back exactly what he had before with some guarantees. No more.

I guess that should be a specific guarantee. Tony George guarantees that that he'll never again try to run a competing series or establish any rules (including technical) that exclude Champ car from participation.

Champ car would achieve a benefit in their own TV package just by the elimination of competition and being at the Indy 500.


Why do half the races have to be ovals and in the US? The market is telling us otherwise and people have always shown up in May regardless of what the cars did the rest of the year.
That's purely a face saving gesture for George's benefit. There's no way that there would actually be 50% ovals because that would require George to find 10 ovals that will actually pay a competitive sanction fee. Champ car has already said that they want to keep half their races in the U.S.

And yes, I think a face saving gesture is necessary. George's ego created and sustains this rift. Champ car can afford to make empty gestures to salve his ego. We know the score.

[KLang]

IMO nrc is being way to generous. FTG deserves nothing. :mad:


IChamp car guarantees that it will not schedule other events on Memorial Day weekend or the three weekends prior.


This one is especially silly IMO. It shouldn't take a freaking month to put on one stupid race. The reports of crowd size for the 'Month of May' would seem to show that the fans agree.

[nrc]

IMO nrc is being way to generous. FTG deserves nothing. :mad:
I'm from the Sherman school. A hard war and a soft peace. But this isn't doing anything but guaranteeing him what he already had. And nothing more. I would much rather do that and keep him out of series managment completely rather than make him a partner in the series.


This one is especially silly IMO. It shouldn't take a freaking month to put on one stupid race. The reports of crowd size for the 'Month of May' would seem to show that the fans agree.It should really be opening weekend, a week of practice, two days of qualifying and the race weekend. But Champ car can afford to allow that other week off even if George doesn't use it. It's not like the April/May schedule is packed anyway.

[RacinM3]

I suppose I'm just part of the "rub his face in his dirt and make him eat it" school of business relationships, but there is really no reason to let St. Tony the Martyr [insert picture of TG tied to the Pagoda and pierced by flying Dallaras here] have anything that even hints at validating his decade of stupidity.

This is an attitude brought out by your (and, admittedly, my) heart, not your head. TG owns the Speedway. Could Champ Car survive without the Speedway? Sure. It's still here, right? But if you ignore your heart and limit it to your head, you'll see that the sport is damaged enough. It CAN get worse, with more years of split. The reality is that US OW racing will be better served NOW by the elimination of the Earl, and sometimes to get what you need you have to compromise and deal with jackasses, accepting that sometimes necessary evils are, well, necessary.

In other threads, a lot of people are saying "screw him, Champ Car will survive without the I500, the IRL is dying, just let it die", which may be a good strategy, but it also may take another 5 years, and then OW just has that much bigger of a hole to dig itself out of.

I'd like to see US OW start repairing itself now, not later, and I'd accept TG as a race promoter with a voting seat on the Champ Car board to placate him. We already know he's so politically inept that he'd never be able to gain a consensus to swing a vote his way, yet he'd still be able to stroke his ego by saying he's part of the Series decision-making process. It basically puts him right where we all want him.

Unitl he throws another tantrum, of course. But there could be a contract.

Also, this needs to be done soon, while you could convince team owners to dump chassis that they've already run for 1-2 years (hopefully from the Earl). If new chassis specs come out and orders get placed/delivered, this process will become more difficult.

[racer2c]

This is an attitude brought out by your (and, admittedly, my) heart, not your head. TG owns the Speedway. Could Champ Car survive without the Speedway? Sure. It's still here, right? But if you ignore your heart and limit it to your head, you'll see that the sport is damaged enough. It CAN get worse, with more years of split. The reality is that US OW racing will be better served NOW by the elimination of the Earl, and sometimes to get what you need you have to compromise and deal with jackasses, accepting that sometimes necessary evils are, well, necessary.

In other threads, a lot of people are saying "screw him, Champ Car will survive without the I500, the IRL is dying, just let it die", which may be a good strategy, but it also may take another 5 years, and then OW just has that much bigger of a hole to dig itself out of.

I'd like to see US OW start repairing itself now, not later, and I'd accept TG as a race promoter with a voting seat on the Champ Car board to placate him. We already know he's so politically inept that he'd never be able to gain a consensus to swing a vote his way, yet he'd still be able to stroke his ego by saying he's part of the Series decision-making process. It basically puts him right where we all want him.

Unitl he throws another tantrum, of course. But there could be a contract.

:thumbup:

[pchall]

I'm from the Sherman school. A hard war and a soft peace.

Well, I am for Kalkhoven and his mighty sword wrecking havoc on the IRL and TG until he is a prostrate supplicant. Only then can he have a 'soft peace' watching the green skies and the funnel clouds cross Indiana from his Pagoda.

[DagoFast]

Indy is a corpse. Why do you guys insist on picking over the bones?

How about we just let master george wind up with the legacy he has worked so hard for? The dunce that killed the 500.

Many things were great in their time. But time always moves on, and when you fail to move forward for a decade, it passes you by. You will never catch up.

The effort should be spent rebuilding the sport from a broad base of important events. (like CART was doing)

Not the one event that used to be important, was used to fracture and almost destroy the sport. And whose rebuilding would come on the shoulders of those it attempted to destroy, and to the benefit of the family that ruined it.

Are you people really that nuts?

[Ozarkian]

nrc, this is a good proposal. It addresses the primary concerns contained in Vision 1.0, and thus puts him in a tough negotiating position. It would also make it much more difficult for him to throw another "fit" in the future (at least a credible one, although this issue should be dealt with clearly and decisively in the contracts).

Inasmuch as we'd all like to see a pound of flesh (or two or three) exacted from FTG and his kling-ons, the sport will not stabilize and recover without a certain amount of appeasement, as distasteful as that may be. That being said, I'm not in favor of going much further than what is contained in your proposal, because it's clearly just a matter of time for the IRL.

[RacinM3]

Are you people really that nuts?

Maybe. But some of us were around when it all went south back in '95-'96. We remember that the formula that was in existence then was a very, very successful one. We also realize it's sometimes easier to backtrack to a proven formula than it is to forge a new path forward. Sort of like the path of least resistance.

Don't get me wrong, though. However it plays out, even if CC puts out a press release stating "we'll never, ever go back to Indy no matter what happens", I'll cast my lot with them, not whatever or whoever ends up running at Indy.

[nrc]

In other threads, a lot of people are saying "screw him, Champ Car will survive without the I500, the IRL is dying, just let it die", which may be a good strategy, but it also may take another 5 years, and then OW just has that much bigger of a hole to dig itself out of.

Exactly. That's why I say they should wrap up a bunch of nothing in a pretty wrapping paper, put a big bow on top and give it to him. People seem to think the suggestions I made are giving him something for his trouble. It really just guarantees him status quo circa 1995.

[racer2c]

Indy is a corpse. Why do you guys insist on picking over the bones?

How about we just let master george wind up with the legacy he has worked so hard for? The dunce that killed the 500.

Many things were great in their time. But time always moves on, and when you fail to move forward for a decade, it passes you by. You will never catch up.

The effort should be spent rebuilding the sport from a broad base of important events. (like CART was doing)

Not the one event that used to be important, was used to fracture and almost destroy the sport. And whose rebuilding would come on the shoulders of those it attempted to destroy, and to the benefit of the family that ruined it.

Are you people really that nuts?

Come on back down to Earth. Indy, obviously a mere shadow of it's former self, is still a great tool in order to for the sport to grow. How much growth is possible without it? With Champ Car moving more and more of it's races over seas, continuing to isolate hardcore fans by not racing at the venues that made the sport great. Personally I think they may be able to battle the ALMS as the US road racing series of choice, but they'll never get up to NASCAR level. Those days, thanks to Tony are long behind us. With Indy, at least the CCWS would have a race that the national media would pay attention to.
Including Indy into it's fold doesn't mean that Indy becomes the main focus to the detriment of everything else. KK isn't Tony and the CCWS isn't the IRL.

Playing it 'tough' is a dangerous game. Even though we hardcores, know that Champ Car is rebounding and has solid management making good decisions, the split still is taking it's toll on sponsors and potential sponsors. If the split was out of the equation, I'm sure we'd see allot of sponsors come on board saying "we looked at Champ Car and the IRl but didn't get involved because of the split."

[Racing Truth]

I would vote to make it keep 90 percent of the races in the NAFTA countries - or alternatively, no more than two outside NAFTA.

18 out of 20. Two flyaway races are enough - Surfers and Brazil?

Sadly, I think Rio is dead, not kept up. Otherwise, nrc: :thumbup:

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, NO ASIAN EXCURSIONS!

[Sean O'Gorman]

I changed my mind. China and Japan are good, but they have to be REAL race tracks, and they can't bump any real race tracks off the schedule.

[Racing Truth]

A question for some:

Suppose this mess ends, and we're back to one series. If you eliminate the Indianapolis Motor Speedway, what exactly do you have to build on?

Yes, the goal must be to have a strong series, not just one obsessed with IMS, but if you don't think a united Indianapolis 500 would help in the early building stages...

[Racing Truth]

I changed my mind. China and Japan are good, but they have to be REAL race tracks, and they can't bump any real race tracks off the schedule.

Motegi? Or the possible CC road race?

'Cause if its Motegi, no thank you.

[Racing Truth]

Indy is a corpse. Why do you guys insist on picking over the bones?

How about we just let master george wind up with the legacy he has worked so hard for? The dunce that killed the 500.

Many things were great in their time. But time always moves on, and when you fail to move forward for a decade, it passes you by. You will never catch up.

The effort should be spent rebuilding the sport from a broad base of important events. (like CART was doing)

Not the one event that used to be important, was used to fracture and almost destroy the sport. And whose rebuilding would come on the shoulders of those it attempted to destroy, and to the benefit of the family that ruined it.

Are you people really that nuts?

If Indy could no longer be used as leverage by TG, why eliminate it. And remember folks, CART had a very strong series in the 90's. Solid ratings, attendance, etc. Still, IIRC, the highest rated CART event in '95 (maybe '94?) was Michigan with a 4.0. Very, very good. Indy got an 8.4, double MIS, in '95. If you think that having Indy as ONE of the series' races did nothing to help overall, well I can't say much else.

[Gnam]

I just figured it all out. The solution is really simple. Back in 1994 Tony George told the world in his letter to the Indy Star, "This league was created because CART provided no long-term guarantees to the "500" or to oval track racing."

Did I miss anything?
nrc, I would argue that the reason FTG gave for the split "to save the Indy 500" was not his true motivation. Rather, I believe his greed for power over AOW was his true reason. From 25/8 to "33 is just a number" to bumpless bump days, it is clear that "saving" the I500 is not as important to FTG as maintaining the EARL and his quest to destroy Champ Car.

Therefore, although your proposals to guarantee the I500's position and prominence on the racing calender would appeal to a sane person, I don't think it will persuade FTG. All this started at Indy, but it's beyond that now. I believe Tony will have to lose everything before he will acknowledge there is a problem.

[Bob_S.]

Come on back down to Earth. Indy, obviously a mere shadow of it's former self, is still a great tool in order to for the sport to grow. How much growth is possible without it? With Champ Car moving more and more of it's races over seas, continuing to isolate hardcore fans by not racing at the venues that made the sport great. Personally I think they may be able to battle the ALMS as the US road racing series of choice, but they'll never get up to NASCAR level. Those days, thanks to Tony are long behind us. With Indy, at least the CCWS would have a race that the national media would pay attention to.
Including Indy into it's fold doesn't mean that Indy becomes the main focus to the detriment of everything else. KK isn't Tony and the CCWS isn't the IRL.

Playing it 'tough' is a dangerous game. Even though we hardcores, know that Champ Car is rebounding and has solid management making good decisions, the split still is taking it's toll on sponsors and potential sponsors. If the split was out of the equation, I'm sure we'd see allot of sponsors come on board saying "we looked at Champ Car and the IRl but didn't get involved because of the split."

In all the PR and hype that's flooded out of IMS this month, only one thing has remained constant:
No
One
Cares.


They bring the "Lucky 33" to NYC and.......... 200 people show up (half of them HAD to show up because it was their job).
They have their Supah Stah go on the TV show of one of her team owners and.......the team owner cuts down TG.
"Bump Day" was another ratings/attendance extravaganza that was outdrawn by a crowd watching some guy try to pick the lock on his car.

Face it, the Indy 500 has become the Studabaker of racing. It looks nice when the shadows are just right but it's faded over time. Maybe its too late to save the race but the danger is in keeping TG in charge of anything. Look down the road ten years, maybe TG will get another hair-brained idea to start his own racing series once he forgets what happened to the last one?
As for Nascar- thank goodness for Fox. :rofl: The Nextel Cup looks a LOT like football or baseball (if anyone tried to play football or baseball while driving down the freeway). Nascar has over-hyped itself to the point where they can see their 15 minutes of fame if they take off the blinders. The old-school fans don't like the changes. The new fans like the pretty colors but are starting to wonder where the substance is.

[devilmaster]

Maybe. But some of us were around when it all went south back in '95-'96. We remember that the formula that was in existence then was a very, very successful one. We also realize it's sometimes easier to backtrack to a proven formula than it is to forge a new path forward. Sort of like the path of least resistance.

I was around then and still am now. My problem is that, in the mid 90's they tried to appease him. It wasn't enough. Everyone tried to work out a deal with him. Still not enough. He started the league for his reasons. They were lies. He became CART in every sense, including destroying his league because of the toyonda wars. And we still see a major drop in ratings for his signature race.

In the end, any sort of 'capitulation, merger or any agreement' means that we'll have to deal with him, period. It'll never be the way it was, and we'd still be dealing with him. His ego and stupidity won't allow him to walk up to a podium and say he messed up 10 years ago, so why do we wanna work with him now?

Why do we want to deal with a guy who has helped to wreck our series, his league, his track, OW in general and a partridge in a pear tree?

Unless he is gone, any sort of deal is pointless, and an exercise in futility to dream about how it may look down the road.

Hey, i'd like to go back to the way it used to be. I just wanna be the fan who followed a series, watching the races on TV that i didn't go to. I never wanted to know about the franchise board, Indiana bankruptcy courts, spacer-gate, mph stock, and everything else. I wanted to just watch great racing. Whats that old Seger line? "I wish I didn't know now, what i didn't know then." TG is always going to be involved with Indy, and he destroys everything he touches. Why would anyone want to deal with that? If Champcar can survive without Indy (and KK&GF believe it can) then leave Tony to his own devices.

[Racing Truth]

In all the PR and hype that's flooded out of IMS this month, only one thing has remained constant:
No
One
Cares.


They bring the "Lucky 33" to NYC and.......... 200 people show up (half of them HAD to show up because it was their job).
They have their Supah Stah go on the TV show of one of her team owners and.......the team owner cuts down TG.
"Bump Day" was another ratings/attendance extravaganza that was outdrawn by a crowd watching some guy try to pick the lock on his car.

Face it, the Indy 500 has become the Studabaker of racing. It looks nice when the shadows are just right but it's faded over time. Maybe its too late to save the race but the danger is in keeping TG in charge of anything. Look down the road ten years, maybe TG will get another hair-brained idea to start his own racing series once he forgets what happened to the last one?
As for Nascar- thank goodness for Fox. :rofl: The Nextel Cup looks a LOT like football or baseball (if anyone tried to play football or baseball while driving down the freeway). Nascar has over-hyped itself to the point where they can see their 15 minutes of fame if they take off the blinders. The old-school fans don't like the changes. The new fans like the pretty colors but are starting to wonder where the substance is.

If Indy even drops to a 3.0 rating, it will still be 3x more than ANY OTHER OW race. It's an awful shell of itself, but eliminating might be the #1 dumbest idea out there.

[RacinM3]

I was around then and still am now. My problem is that, in the mid 90's they tried to appease him. It wasn't enough.

Steve, is my memory failing me when I seem to remember that TG wanted a voting seat on the CART BoD and was refused? Wasn't that pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back?

I don't think the "attempts to appease" were the charitable gestures on CART's part that you seem to. This is where CART's portion of blame for the split begins, and it's where they dangerously underestimated the I500's importance and TG's determination, IMO.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to be accused of being a revisionist.

[Napoleon]

Steve, is my memory failing me when I seem to remember that TG wanted a voting seat on the CART BoD and was refused? Wasn't that pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back?

If I recall correctly, TG was already on the board and wanted an ability to appoint a majority of the board to which they, rightfully, told him to FO.

This would be no differant then me walking down to the corner grocery store and telling the owner to hand over the keys, I was going to be the new owner. The predictable response is the owner is going to pull his handgun out and tell me I can walk out the door and forget my idea or the coroners office could pick me up in a body bag.

TG made outrageous demands that anyone with any amount of common sense would realize would be meet with the reaction it did.

[racer2c]

In all the PR and hype that's flooded out of IMS this month, only one thing has remained constant:
No
One
Cares.


They bring the "Lucky 33" to NYC and.......... 200 people show up (half of them HAD to show up because it was their job).
They have their Supah Stah go on the TV show of one of her team owners and.......the team owner cuts down TG.
"Bump Day" was another ratings/attendance extravaganza that was outdrawn by a crowd watching some guy try to pick the lock on his car.

Face it, the Indy 500 has become the Studabaker of racing. It looks nice when the shadows are just right but it's faded over time. Maybe its too late to save the race but the danger is in keeping TG in charge of anything. Look down the road ten years, maybe TG will get another hair-brained idea to start his own racing series once he forgets what happened to the last one?
As for Nascar- thank goodness for Fox. :rofl: The Nextel Cup looks a LOT like football or baseball (if anyone tried to play football or baseball while driving down the freeway). Nascar has over-hyped itself to the point where they can see their 15 minutes of fame if they take off the blinders. The old-school fans don't like the changes. The new fans like the pretty colors but are starting to wonder where the substance is.

Tell it someone who doesn't know. Me face it? It's Tony George who has to face it.

As for NASCAR, which is another thread all together, I'll believe their 15 minutes is up when they start cutting their double schedule to singles due to lack of attendance.

[ChampCar#3]

Did I miss anything?


Yeah.......he has to guarantee 100% clear skies, no wind and 70 degree F temperature. If he fails to deliver then the deal is off !

Personally, I would rather leave him blowin' in the wind for the next cpl years.
He made his bed, let him sleep in it!
But If the Amigos think it's best that there is some agreement, then it's good enough for me! Have KK been wrong at all in TG's mess?


BTW NRC.....nice post, well thought out!

[RacinM3]

Thank you Nap, if that was the case I'd have told him to FO as well. I do seem to remember that his position on the BoD was basically almost an "honorary" thing, devoid of any real teeth. Too bad a comprosmise couldn't have been reached there - this thread may not have even existed.

As for your grocery store analogy, it's not entirely accurate....it'd be more like your biggest supplier for your grocery store coming in and doing that - you'd still tell him to FO, but your business would suffer from the loss of his product and him opening a grocery store next door.

[Napoleon]

Thank you Nap, if that was the case I'd have told him to FO as well. I do seem to remember that his position on the BoD was basically almost an "honorary" thing, devoid of any real teeth.

I don't recall if his position was entitled to a vote or not. Regardless, if the owners were voting as a block it would not have had a meaningful impact.

In any event the salient point is (of which I am sure) is that he requested that they simply turn over management to him. There is no business in the world that in a lucid moment of reflection is going to take that deal. It was a "hey, I'll give you $1 and you give me $2 in return" sort of proposal, one that not only do you automatically reject, but is not even something that is designed to draw a realistic counter proposal. If TG was ever serious about his concerns he would have proposed something that at least could have been subject to negotiations like, say what nrc proposed above. TG made the proposal with the sole goal that it be rejected so he could pull his race out of CART while claiming it was CART's fault.

[devilmaster]

Steve, is my memory failing me when I seem to remember that TG wanted a voting seat on the CART BoD and was refused? Wasn't that pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back?

Scott, my post wasn't really directed at you, even though it was your quote that I used.

Nappy has it right, from what i remember. He was given a seat on the board, but wanted them to agree to a 3 man OW overseeing board that he could appoint the other two members, Tony being on the 3 man himself.

I'm a big believer in the quote - if you forget about history you are doomed to repeat it. A merger or some sort of agreement is where we were 10 years ago. Tony was on the board. He could have used it. But we all know thats not what he wanted. His actions over 10 years have spoken louder than words. He is not a man to be trusted.

Where are all the little teams that helped him out in 1996? Most are gone because he thought manufacturer money would finally be the death knell for CART. His original vision has changed so many times we joke about the version number. Under his tenure, the 500 has declined. They now toy with the traditions (those things he said in the famous letter that CART would do) which made the indy 500, well the indy 500.

Tony George is a weasel. He cannot be trusted. If they were to merge or have an agreement, there is nothing stopping TG from doing it all again. A merger is now his latest vision until he decides to have another one. As long as he is around, it will never be the same, and I submit it will never be the same again anyways.

So again, why should we as fans trust him now? For a pipe dream of the way it used to be?

[cart7]

Steve, is my memory failing me when I seem to remember that TG wanted a voting seat on the CART BoD and was refused? Wasn't that pretty much the straw that broke the camel's back?

I don't think the "attempts to appease" were the charitable gestures on CART's part that you seem to. This is where CART's portion of blame for the split begins, and it's where they dangerously underestimated the I500's importance and TG's determination, IMO.

Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong. I don't want to be accused of being a revisionist.

It actually started in the '91 Fall meetings when Tony stormed out after insisting that Cart basically create a new BoD with the majority of the members being IMS partners or their agents. He left in a huff with some vague warnings.

He wanted a voting seat on the BoD but never got one. I saw a quote from the late Tony Bettenhausen who said that TG basically spent most of the meetings sitting in a corner and rarely spoke up. Not hard to believe after watching him try and present himself in public.

Basically, Cart was trying to appease a spoiled rich kid who didn't have a clue other than to throw a tantrum when he didn't get what he wanted (Control of Cart).

[RacinM3]

All very good info from you both and helps me temper my "what I would do" scenario.....showing my idea of putting him on the BoD of CC now would not appease him, unless he's suddenly "seen the light". Appreciate it. :thumbup:

Problem is, I'm convinced he's blind.

So.....I have no idea what the hell I would do. Call Guido? :laugh:

[Napoleon]

On the substance of the post, nice idea ncr, unfortunately it has the dual problem of 1), if that is what TG wanted he would have proposed it long ago and 2) it looks way too much like a defeat for TG which, as much as I know some/most hear don’t want to consider this, really would not be a good thing

I find myself generally agreeing with RacinM3, Racer2C and Racing Truth.

What ever happens has to me more of what appears like a win/win - 50/50 solution. Any other result will further alienate what is left of the fan base. The devil is that any result that has TG in management control will be considered a loss by the Champcar side, even if in every other detail, such as what equipment is used, it prevails. On the flip side at the very least I do not see TG agreeing to cede control over many issues, and perhaps refusing not to have anything less then 50+% say in management.

I see 2 possible ways out. In both TG would have a 50/50 economic interest in the resulting series.

The first would be somewhat similar to ncr’s proposals, except TG would have expanded vetos over equipment issues and there would be a prenegotiated “unwrap” agreement whereby TG could pull the plug on the merger, freeze equipment changes during the transition period, and walk away with 50% of the venues. I honestly can not envision a realistic deal, short of buying IMS, where TG would ever agree not to have the ability to walk, and at this point agree to combine with CCWS unless he could walk into what is all but a pre set up race series. And honestly, I do not think it is unrealistic or overreaching for to demand this type of deal. If he cedes operational control of the series he needs a veto and a realistic ultimate threat of walking to get a sympathetic hearing from management. From CCWS standpoint why not agree. If you think 1 (the IRL) plus 1 (CCWS) can equal 3 then once TG is in the deal the “golden handcuffs” of the improved performance of the combined series will effectively keep him from ever exercising his option to walk.

The second way would be to keep 2 series, kind of like MLB has the AL and NL, one of which TG runs and one of which CCWS runs. There would be 3 championships, IRL, CCWS and the combined. Of course there would be common equipment that is agreed upon by both sides from time to time. There may be touchy anti-trust issues to be addressed, and practically speaking there may actually need to be a merger of the two with TG acting as commissioner of one of the resulting sanctioning bodies’ leagues and CCWS over the other. Since all sports is simply manufactured competition (unlike, say, wars or business) I think it may be an advantage to have the additional story line of the gomer league facing the wine and cheese, latte drinking series every May.

BTW I suspect that Champcar is in as bad a financial shape as IRL. The only thing it has going for it is that it has an equipment package more in line with the economic realities of formula car racing in North America then the IRL does and therefore the IRL is facing some gut wrenching changes in the near future to adjust to this reality whereas CCWS has already swallowed its medicine.

[Gnam]

A merger is now (FTG's) latest vision until he decides to have another one.
That's deep. :thumbup: I can dig it.

[FCYTravis]

In all the PR and hype that's flooded out of IMS this month, only one thing has remained constant:
No
One
Cares.
The problem is, even fewer people care about Champ Car.


Nascar has over-hyped itself to the point where they can see their 15 minutes of fame if they take off the blinders. The old-school fans don't like the changes. The new fans like the pretty colors but are starting to wonder where the substance is.
Is that why the ratings keep going up and the tracks keep building new grandstands?

[Racing Truth]

I've been on these forums for a meager 3 yrs. During those 3 yrs., I've read posts from diehards on both sides heralding the imminent demise of NASCAR. Here's a clue: Don't hold your breath.

[devilmaster]

So.....I have no idea what the hell I would do. Call Guido? :laugh:

We can't allow anything to happen to Tony!!!!

They might put someone competent in charge.

[datachicane]

I don't want revenge.
No matter how much pain is inflicted on the gomerati who brought this on us, it won't undo the suffering we OW fans have been through for the last ten years. There's been enough pain, and if this is going to stick it can't be Versailles 2.

I don't want to lock anybody out.
We've already seen what happens when a 'league' decides that politics and ethno-geography is more important than on-track performance. I just want to see the best. Nobody says I have to like them.

I just want 1995 back.
If cutting TG some face-saving slack gets us there a few years quicker (if it's possible at all), I'm willing to try. It goes without saying that none of the parties involved would ever, ever let him near an actual management decision again.

[datachicane]

BTW, TG was appointed to a non-voting board seat in Feb, 1992, after his suggestion of the five-member board (IIRC, three would be IMS appointees) was rejected in late 1991. He resigned the seat in Jan, 1994, in protest over Andrew Craig's appointment to CEO over TG's choice (Leo Mehl? I can't recall).

TG announced formation of the IRL in March 1994.

[cart7]

I don't want revenge.
No matter how much pain is inflicted on the gomerati who brought this on us, it won't undo the suffering we OW fans have been through for the last ten years. There's been enough pain, and if this is going to stick it can't be Versailles 2.

I don't want to lock anybody out.
We've already seen what happens when a 'league' decides that politics and ethno-geography is more important than on-track performance. I just want to see the best. Nobody says I have to like them.

I just want 1995 back.
If cutting TG some face-saving slack gets us there a few years quicker (if it's possible at all), I'm willing to try. It goes without saying that none of the parties involved would ever, ever let him near an actual management decision again.


:thumbup:

[JoeBob]

Well said, datachicane. There's no need to rub salt on anybody's wounds. Make it seem like there are no winners and no losers - just forget the past and move on.

It was immature when IRL-backers "demanded apologies" from ChampCar teams that crossed over to the IRL, and it would be equally immature for ChampCar fans to expect the same upon their return.

Focusing on mistakes of the past does nothing to secure the future. Learn from history so that you don't repeat it. But dwelling on history is counterproductive.

[oddlycalm]

Focusing on mistakes of the past does nothing to secure the future. Learn from history so that you don't repeat it. But dwelling on history is counterproductive. Right, and these people will all have plenty to do if OW racing is to ever find a market again. What either series has now is simply not interesting on TV to all but a very few people. Unless they can effect some fundamental changes that are very postive, nobody will care who won or who lost.

Listen, the reason this is happening isn't because anyone changed their mind, became more mature or had a new better idea, they are doing it because the sponsors pouring money into both series told them that if they didn't it was adios. Newman Haas is at Indy because of their sponsors and Honda is at the bargaining table because it's ready to leave the EARL. Penske hasn't been able to replace the tobacco money and every other team is on weak ground. The collective message is that none of these companies really need OW racing, and they are prepared to leave if the BS doesn't stop right here right now.

CCWS could probably manage to go on and have a Pacific Rim series of spec car street races with a few variations thrown it, but it would take years to get to the place where it was economically interesting. Shaving 5yrs off that timetable is worth their time to listen, so they are.

Personally, I like nrc's "face saving with no substance" proposal, and I hope that's what we see. We will probably know shortly what things will look like, and I'm prepared to wait and see.

oc

[cameraman]

Honda is at the bargaining table because it's ready to leave the EARL.

Honda is in a world of hurt once Toyota leaves. They will have no one to race but themselves and they have nothing to take to NASCAR. The IRL folds and they have nothing but motorcycles racing in the USA.

Honda is looking to save Honda's ass and nothing else.

[Hot Rod Otis]

BTW, TG was appointed to a non-voting board seat in Feb, 1992, after his suggestion of the five-member board (IIRC, three would be IMS appointees) was rejected in late 1991. He resigned the seat in Jan, 1994, in protest over Andrew Craig's appointment to CEO over TG's choice (Leo Mehl? I can't recall).

TG announced formation of the IRL in March 1994.

Anton's choice for CART CEO in 94 was Cary Agajanian.

[Sean O'Gorman]

Anton's choice for CART CEO in 94 was Cary Agajanian.

A man, who, ironically has been more successful in the motorsports business than almost anyone else in open wheel racing.

[coolhand]

Tell it someone who doesn't know. Me face it? It's Tony George who has to face it.

As for NASCAR, which is another thread all together, I'll believe their 15 minutes is up when they start cutting their double schedule to singles due to lack of attendance.


NASCAR has already hit its peak.

They have pissed off their traditional fanbase, and the new crowd they have pandered to for the past few years is not going to hang around for long.

[Napoleon]

Focusing on mistakes of the past does nothing to secure the future. Learn from history so that you don't repeat it. But dwelling on history is counterproductive.

:thumbup:

[oddlycalm]

Honda is in a world of hurt once Toyota leaves. They will have no one to race but themselves and they have nothing to take to NASCAR. The IRL folds and they have nothing but motorcycles racing in the USA.

Honda is looking to save Honda's ass and nothing else. While I agree with your description of the logistical situation, I can't see anything that is of the utmost urgency from an actual business point of view as in "world of hurt" or requiring "ass saving." They would clearly prefer to be racing in some series, but it's not a business threatening situation in the event they don't. Clark's HRD budget might get carved up, but that's only a concern to him and a few of his people. They are simply making it clear they don't intend to continue when Toyota leaves, and trying to push TG off of dead center. If he doesn't move, they're gone, simple as that.

oc

[coolhand]

Well said, datachicane. There's no need to rub salt on anybody's wounds. Make it seem like there are no winners and no losers - just forget the past and move on.

It was immature when IRL-backers "demanded apologies" from ChampCar teams that crossed over to the IRL, and it would be equally immature for ChampCar fans to expect the same upon their return.

Focusing on mistakes of the past does nothing to secure the future. Learn from history so that you don't repeat it. But dwelling on history is counterproductive.

demanding apologies from a few certain IRL posters would not be that off base

[datachicane]

demanding apologies from a few certain IRL posters would not be that off base

Nah, they'll disappear on their own. At least their userids will...
:D

[Andrew Longman]

While I agree with your description of the logistical situation, I can't see anything that is of the utmost urgency from an actual business point of view as in "world of hurt" or requiring "ass saving." They would clearly prefer to be racing in some series, but it's not a business threatening situation in the event they don't. Clark's HRD budget might get carved up, but that's only a concern to him and a few of his people. They are simply making it clear they don't intend to continue when Toyota leaves, and trying to push TG off of dead center. If he doesn't move, they're gone, simple as that.

oc


You know, you are a really smart guy. How did that happen?

[DagoFast]

I was around then and still am now. My problem is that, in the mid 90's they tried to appease him. It wasn't enough. Everyone tried to work out a deal with him. Still not enough. He started the league for his reasons. They were lies. He became CART in every sense, including destroying his league because of the toyonda wars. And we still see a major drop in ratings for his signature race.

In the end, any sort of 'capitulation, merger or any agreement' means that we'll have to deal with him, period. It'll never be the way it was, and we'd still be dealing with him. His ego and stupidity won't allow him to walk up to a podium and say he messed up 10 years ago, so why do we wanna work with him now?

Why do we want to deal with a guy who has helped to wreck our series, his league, his track, OW in general and a partridge in a pear tree?

Unless he is gone, any sort of deal is pointless, and an exercise in futility to dream about how it may look down the road.

Hey, i'd like to go back to the way it used to be. I just wanna be the fan who followed a series, watching the races on TV that i didn't go to. I never wanted to know about the franchise board, Indiana bankruptcy courts, spacer-gate, mph stock, and everything else. I wanted to just watch great racing. Whats that old Seger line? "I wish I didn't know now, what i didn't know then." TG is always going to be involved with Indy, and he destroys everything he touches. Why would anyone want to deal with that? If Champcar can survive without Indy (and KK&GF believe it can) then leave Tony to his own devices.


Devilmaster gets it. And I WAS around long before the split as well.

I have three words for some of you: Latent Gomer Tendencies.
Check the shoe...does it fit?

You guys are in love with a MEMORY! It does not exist anymore. And you can't recreate it.

Think of it in an abstract yet common way. Remember a beautiful gal you once knew. (you old guys can picture Donna Reed or Doris Day :D ) She WAS it. What woman-hood was all about. You dated her for awhile. It was great! Best time of your life. But, she wanted to kick up her heels.

Then she fell in with a bad crowd. She ended up being used and passed around, now she has some tattoos. Has hosted more than her share of biker parties. And that ain't baking powder on that little button nose.

Now, 10 years later, everyone in town knows the story. And finally one day, no one wants to buy her drinks and party with her anymore.

So she gets your phone number and calls you.....

Do you REALLY want her back?

Indy is tainted in the same way. It's yesterdays good girl gone bad. And reformed bad girls settling down and getting the tattoo's removed and going back to church don't sell magazines or pack in the viewers.

You can't turn back the clock.

Wait one week. See what the ratings are. See what the holes in the stands look like.

Then tell me I'm a dreamer.

[FCYTravis]

OK DagoFast, but where does that leave the rest of American open-wheel?

Champ Car's going in a direction completely antithetical to anything I really care about. If it were to reassume the Indy 500, hopefully that can be turned around and the series can refocus on NAFTA-centered racing with a diverse mix of the best road courses, street races and ovals on the North American continent.

Each passing year is a year that I'm less interested in Champ Car. Fewer road courses, more parking lots and more unrecognizable (and questionably talented) drivers. I don't think that's the right path to future success. Korea and China and Argentina are not the way forward. I believe that rebuilding the Indy 500 will also help rebuild Champ Car.

JMO.

[coolhand]

Devilmaster gets it. And I WAS around long before the split as well.

I have three words for some of you: Latent Gomer Tendencies.
Check the shoe...does it fit?

You guys are in love with a MEMORY! It does not exist anymore. And you can't recreate it.

Think of it in an abstract yet common way. Remember a beautiful gal you once knew. (you old guys can picture Donna Reed or Doris Day :D ) She WAS it. What woman-hood was all about. You dated her for awhile. It was great! Best time of your life. But, she wanted to kick up her heels.

Then she fell in with a bad crowd. She ended up being used and passed around, now she has some tattoos. Has hosted more than her share of biker parties. And that ain't baking powder on that little button nose.

Now, 10 years later, everyone in town knows the story. And finally one day, no one wants to buy her drinks and party with her anymore.

So she gets your phone number and calls you.....

Do you REALLY want her back?

Indy is tainted in the same way. It's yesterdays good girl gone bad. And reformed bad girls settling down and getting the tattoo's removed and going back to church don't sell magazines or pack in the viewers.

You can't turn back the clock.

Wait one week. See what the ratings are. See what the holes in the stands look like.

Then tell me I'm a dreamer.


what a applicable analogy. great post :thumbup:

[NismoZ]

Yes, I fail to see how "forgetting" the Indy 500 serves any emotion or need other than hate or revenge. A resurgent 500 running parallel to a stronger and growing ChampCar or Indy Car World Series, under the "proper" leadership and management and using "correct" technical specs, would NOT be obnoxious to me. How could I not approve of profits for the Speedway owner if it helped create a stronger more successful position for THE Openwheel Racing Series? You may hate the idea of mutual benefit but I don't. I believe the only reason FTG is "coming around" is that he also believes this could happen. Maybe his, and our, last chance. I find it difficult to understand why so much of the talk about any unification or merger, or even a partial merger, focuses on what to do TO FTG rather than what to do FOR openwheel racing.

[coolhand]

OK DagoFast, but where does that leave the rest of American open-wheel?

Champ Car's going in a direction completely antithetical to anything I really care about. If it were to reassume the Indy 500, hopefully that can be turned around and the series can refocus on NAFTA-centered racing with a diverse mix of the best road courses, street races and ovals on the North American continent.

Each passing year is a year that I'm less interested in Champ Car. Fewer road courses, more parking lots and more unrecognizable (and questionably talented) drivers. I don't think that's the right path to future success. Korea and China and Argentina are not the way forward. I believe that rebuilding the Indy 500 will also help rebuild Champ Car.

JMO.


thats all i feel CC can hope for without a merger. It has to be a top notch road racing series to be desirable to watch in any way. Meaning, fast cars, high HP, natural terrain RC's (i believe next year we are adding two with Ansan and Bejing). Also top notch drivers need to be in the series too.

Formulating the next gen of cars with ovals in mind is futile. They have to let them go.

[racer2c]

Devilmaster gets it. And I WAS around long before the split as well.

I have three words for some of you: Latent Gomer Tendencies.
Check the shoe...does it fit?

You guys are in love with a MEMORY! It does not exist anymore. And you can't recreate it.

Think of it in an abstract yet common way. Remember a beautiful gal you once knew. (you old guys can picture Donna Reed or Doris Day :D ) She WAS it. What woman-hood was all about. You dated her for awhile. It was great! Best time of your life. But, she wanted to kick up her heels.

Then she fell in with a bad crowd. She ended up being used and passed around, now she has some tattoos. Has hosted more than her share of biker parties. And that ain't baking powder on that little button nose.

Now, 10 years later, everyone in town knows the story. And finally one day, no one wants to buy her drinks and party with her anymore.

So she gets your phone number and calls you.....

Do you REALLY want her back?

Indy is tainted in the same way. It's yesterdays good girl gone bad. And reformed bad girls settling down and getting the tattoo's removed and going back to church don't sell magazines or pack in the viewers.

You can't turn back the clock.

Wait one week. See what the ratings are. See what the holes in the stands look like.

Then tell me I'm a dreamer.

This isn't being in love with a memory, it's business 101.

[FCYTravis]

natural terrain RC's (i believe next year we are adding two with Ansan and Bejing).
Ansan and Beijing? WGAF. I'm talking about Road America, Laguna Seca, Mid-Ohio, Sebring, Road Atlanta...

[Mike Kellner]

I think the only way to do it is to get rid of Tony. The first step is to begin dealing with the track's owner, the family trust. They have to see the books, and know the numbers on how many tickets are sold, given away, and how many seats can't be filled for free. Before Tony saved Indy from CART, there was a multi year waiting list for crappy tickets, and many more years to move up to good seats. It was a cash cow. I bet the other family members do not love Indy more than they love being millionaires. Business deals should be about business. Here is my deal.

The family trust fires Tony, USAC, The IRL, and the pointed part of the Speedway organization chart. Professional sports managers are brought in to run the Speedway, and promote races there. CCWS agrees to sign a contract where they sanction and run the race, and guarantee that competetive cars will be available to Indy only teams at a price in line with the current price of poker, and/or that CCWS teams will make up the shortfall by putting locals & ride buyers in backup cars to have a fun bump day & full field. The Speedway saves a ton of payroll, and can concentrate on running the Speedway. Prize money is set at some fixed percentage of ticket sales, and the books can be seen by CCWS accountants to be sure. CCWS gets no sanction fee, but gets to sell Live TV rights as part of their package. CCWS signs a long term contract binding both bodies to an exclusive deal as long as CCWS & The 500 are viable. Those IRL races that can survive with the standard CCWS deal, and are on tracks that are safe to race OW cars get slots on the schedule. IRL teams are eligible to become CCWS teams, no questions asked, no apologies required. Shake hands and come out racing.


mk

[DagoFast]

OK DagoFast, but where does that leave the rest of American open-wheel?

Champ Car's going in a direction completely antithetical to anything I really care about. If it were to reassume the Indy 500, hopefully that can be turned around and the series can refocus on NAFTA-centered racing with a diverse mix of the best road courses, street races and ovals on the North American continent.

Each passing year is a year that I'm less interested in Champ Car. Fewer road courses, more parking lots and more unrecognizable (and questionably talented) drivers. I don't think that's the right path to future success. Korea and China and Argentina are not the way forward. I believe that rebuilding the Indy 500 will also help rebuild Champ Car.

JMO.

I feel your pain, but war is hell. I KNOW it's been ten years, and it may take 5 more, but victory WILL be ours. Do not throw it away now for a short lived cease fire.


This isn't being in love with a memory, it's business 101.

Where in Business 101 does it say that it's up to us to shoulder the work of building indy's business back up where it used to be, for the hulman/george families benefit?
Sorry. Been there done that. Ain't gonna do it again.

The thing that got FTG's panties in a wad 10 years ago was that CART was growing other events to stand on their own. THAT's what made him worry about his race.

ChampCar is busy doing the same thing. It is the smart move. Imagine in another ten years, losing Long Beach. And not having to freak out about it because we have 16-18 other events that are just as strong with just as much cachet?

There are too many people here who are still in love with what Findy WAS.
It is not the same anymore and it never will be. You can't erase history. You can't wish it back the way it was. Sorry, but you just can't go "back home" again.

If you want to rush right back there, and try to pick up where you left off, I have 3 words for you: Latent Gomer Tendencies. Be honest with yourself. Deal with it.

ChampCar nearly died on Jan 28, 2004. We are moving forward and have built surprising momentum.

NEVER underestimate momentum.

Indy is headed down, and has been for TEN YEARS! Their momentum is gonna make for a bad bad crash. And no one can stop it.

That's why we need to stay far far away.

And someday, when the smoke clears, and ChampCar decides to go back, people better remember this because it bears repeating:

There is NO WAY anyone should shoulder the work of re-building Findy for the benefit of the hulman/george family.

Quite simply, if ChampCar ever returns, FTG or his offspring cannot be involved because they cannot be trusted.

I personally feel it will be a moot point. ISC will own track by then anyway.

[Mike Kellner]

Oh, and one other requirement for a settlement....

Teams & Sponsors are allowed to contract directly with the caterer of their choice for all food & drink, and the Speedway may not demand any payment or interfere in any way with team and sponsor hospitality supplies.

mk ;)

[Rocketdoc]

Devilmaster gets it. And I WAS around long before the split as well.

I have three words for some of you: Latent Gomer Tendencies.
Check the shoe...does it fit?

You guys are in love with a MEMORY! It does not exist anymore. And you can't recreate it.

Think of it in an abstract yet common way. Remember a beautiful gal you once knew. (you old guys can picture Donna Reed or Doris Day :D ) She WAS it. What woman-hood was all about. You dated her for awhile. It was great! Best time of your life. But, she wanted to kick up her heels.

Then she fell in with a bad crowd. She ended up being used and passed around, now she has some tattoos. Has hosted more than her share of biker parties. And that ain't baking powder on that little button nose.

Now, 10 years later, everyone in town knows the story. And finally one day, no one wants to buy her drinks and party with her anymore.

So she gets your phone number and calls you.....

Do you REALLY want her back?

Indy is tainted in the same way. It's yesterdays good girl gone bad. And reformed bad girls settling down and getting the tattoo's removed and going back to church don't sell magazines or pack in the viewers.

You can't turn back the clock.

Wait one week. See what the ratings are. See what the holes in the stands look like.

Then tell me I'm a dreamer.



Damn...well put.

[Bob_S.]

Yes, I fail to see how "forgetting" the Indy 500 serves any emotion or need other than hate or revenge. A resurgent 500 running parallel to a stronger and growing ChampCar or Indy Car World Series, under the "proper" leadership and management and using "correct" technical specs, would NOT be obnoxious to me. How could I not approve of profits for the Speedway owner if it helped create a stronger more successful position for THE Openwheel Racing Series? You may hate the idea of mutual benefit but I don't. I believe the only reason FTG is "coming around" is that he also believes this could happen. Maybe his, and our, last chance. I find it difficult to understand why so much of the talk about any unification or merger, or even a partial merger, focuses on what to do TO FTG rather than what to do FOR openwheel racing.

Because. ;)
Any form of Truce or Settlement that leaves Tony George in charge of anything that's related to racing means that there will always be the threat of EARL II.

[racer2c]

I feel your pain, but war is hell. I KNOW it's been ten years, and it may take 5 more, but victory WILL be ours. Do not throw it away now for a short lived cease fire.



Where in Business 101 does it say that it's up to us to shoulder the work of building indy's business back up where it used to be, for the hulman/george families benefit?
Sorry. Been there done that. Ain't gonna do it again.

The thing that got FTG's panties in a wad 10 years ago was that CART was growing other events to stand on their own. THAT's what made him worry about his race.

ChampCar is busy doing the same thing. It is the smart move. Imagine in another ten years, losing Long Beach. And not having to freak out about it because we have 16-18 other events that are just as strong with just as much cachet?

There are too many people here who are still in love with what Findy WAS.
It is not the same anymore and it never will be. You can't erase history. You can't wish it back the way it was. Sorry, but you just can't go "back home" again.

If you want to rush right back there, and try to pick up where you left off, I have 3 words for you: Latent Gomer Tendencies. Be honest with yourself. Deal with it.

ChampCar nearly died on Jan 28, 2004. We are moving forward and have built surprising momentum.

NEVER underestimate momentum.

Indy is headed down, and has been for TEN YEARS! Their momentum is gonna make for a bad bad crash. And no one can stop it.

That's why we need to stay far far away.

And someday, when the smoke clears, and ChampCar decides to go back, people better remember this because it bears repeating:

There is NO WAY anyone should shoulder the work of re-building Findy for the benefit of the hulman/george family.

Quite simply, if ChampCar ever returns, FTG or his offspring cannot be involved because they cannot be trusted.

I personally feel it will be a moot point. ISC will own track by then anyway.


Heart meet sleeve.

[Racing Truth]

NASCAR has already hit its peak.

They have pissed off their traditional fanbase, and the new crowd they have pandered to for the past few years is not going to hang around for long.

Clearly, all the signs point to NASCAR's imminent demise. I mean h=ll, all of those 120,000 people in the grandstands every week can't be happy. :gomer: :shakehead

[Gnam]

Oh, and one other requirement for a settlement....

Teams & Sponsors are allowed to contract directly with the caterer of their choice for all food & drink, and the Speedway may not demand any payment or interfere in any way with team and sponsor hospitality supplies.

mk ;)
Also, prevent FTG from stealing prize money to pay for his backmarker teams. If he wants Special Ed to run, he's gotta pay for it.

[Spicoli]

Indy will be back, and it will rock.

You don;t believe me? lets hook up May 2007.

[Don Quixote]

Spicoli, I know its your bday, but step away from the grape koolaide. :p

[Spicoli]

Spicoli, I know its your bday, but step away from the grape koolaide. :p

nope. I just want my race back. And it will be back.

Even Cheeber and FoytSammich are not happy.

[Methanolandbrats]

nope. I just want my race back. And it will be back.

Even Cheeber and FoytSammich are not happy.Yup, party of epic proportions when FTG crawls back under his rock....racing will be fun again. :)

[Spicoli]

Yup, party of epic proportions when FTG crawls back under his rock....racing will be fun again. :)

Yep. I will salute the asshat with my middle finger.

[sundaydriver2]

Dagofast gets it. :thumbup:



Deal with the devil and you'll regret it.

[devilmaster]

Deal with the devil and you'll regret it.

HEY! ;) :D